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The Importance of Authentic Leadership

Welcome to Session Three of the Growing Your Dental Business Podcast. Today I have the pleasure of interviewing Dr. Joe Urcavich. Joe is a public speaker, leadership coach, and alignment advisor. Simply put, he’s in the business of promoting authenticity. In addition, he’s the former chaplain for the Green Bay Packers and has a depth of experience with high-profile and high-pressure situations. So running a dental office may not be exactly like playing for a professional football team, yet you do face many of the challenges and pressure. People look up to you. You’re somewhat of a public figure. So Joe will address that and how to handle those leadership-type issues. And he’s also going to discuss, due to his vast years of experience, the role of the spouse in the dental office and how to make that work. So let’s take it away and tune in to this interview with Joe…

Penny: Well, I’m excited to have Dr. Joe Urcavich with us today and leadership has always been one of my favorite topics and Joe works with many different groups and specifically, he’s also done work with many physicians not only as clients but also on projects and excited to hear some of the things that he has to say that could really serve dental business owners and physicians as well. So welcome, Joe!

Dr. Urcavich: Thank you, Penny. It’s good to be with you.

Penny: It’s good to have you. So I know you’ve recently written a book, The Leadership Deficit. And what message might you have for someone in – you know, physician, dentist in a leadership role as far as what leadership really means to them and their team?

Growing Your Dental Business Podcast with Penny Reed

Podcast Series, Session Three with Guest Speaker Dr. Joe Urcavich

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Growing Your Dental Business Podcast Hosted by Penny Reed With Guest Speaker Dr. Joe Urcavich

Session Three: Leadership in Dentistry-Knowing Yourself in the Leadership Role

Dr. Urcavich: I think the thing that stands out to me most in working with developing leaders is that most people put their emphasis on a system and they look at it as a technique that needs to be mastered when, in fact, the issue of effective leadership has to do with who you are internally. And so my goal is to try to get them to see that any system will work if you’re aligned within yourself and you’re able to project that to the people around you and they understand why you do what you do.

Penny: What do you think it makes it tough for – because most dentists, maybe not so much physicians, find themselves in a smaller business with a smaller team. What do you think are some of those specific challenges that they face?

Dr. Urcavich: Well, I think, you know, in most career paths, a leader is, at least subconsciously, taught to set themselves apart. But actually the most effective leader is one that is most vulnerable. And vulnerability means you have to be willing to listen and emote and share at a more intimate level with a group and if you’re just a small team, it’s absolutely essential. And so my biggest recommendation would be to a small business leader to understand that when you can get the team together and you can have honest dialogue and get feedback, you’re going to find yourself way ahead of the game.

Penny: Well, how do you set the tone or how do you recommend that they set the tone to create that honest dialogue? Because I can imagine some of the folks listening to this are like, well, that really sounds great, but I’m not sure how to do that.

Dr. Urcavich: Sure. Most of the time people don’t know how to do that because we don’t know how to create safety for other people with expression. And so we can see it in our culture as a whole. I mean, you can’t talk about any issue without people firing on you. So you have to be able to sit down with your team and explain to them that what you’re really after is what they actually think and what they actually feel about the processes that are in place and how they can be improved. All of a sudden, you’re going to have a different dialogue if they know you’re going to listen, particularly if you’re not defensive, and you ask questions only. It opens the door to a lot of development to take place in very short order.

Penny: What about outside of the practice, whether it’s spouse or other influential people? I imagine the vulnerability factor is equally at play if not stronger.




Dr. Urcavich: What I’ve discovered in working with people is that if there’s a problem with vulnerability in the marketplace, there’s a problem with vulnerability at home and it’s simply because we know those who are closest to us can wound us the most and so we tend to guard our heart and try to hold onto our heart and take care of our heart and it’s at the expense of really being vulnerable and risking yourself with people who are closest to you.

Penny: So if someone, let’s say, they took your book – which is a great book and for those of you that may even think that you’re not much of a reader, it’s a short book so –

Dr. Urcavich: Yeah. I had somebody tell me the other day I’m so glad that it’s this long because then I’ll read it.

Penny: Yeah. Right, right. So if – where, you know, if – unless someone brought in someone like you and they said, okay, you know, I’m going to be a little more vulnerable with my team, how do they – how do they start with that? I mean, you know, do they sit down and hand out the Kleenex boxes and, you know, and spill their guts or where’s a good place to put their foot in the water and begin the process?

Dr. Urcavich: Well, it’s like – it’s like any discipline. It’s like asking me how – because we’re talking with dentists, you know, where should I start on drilling my tooth?

Penny: Uh-huh.

Dr. Urcavich: Probably getting somebody that’s drilled a tooth before. I’m not going to do it myself.

Penny: Right.

Dr. Urcavich: I’m going to get somebody with experience and I’m going to let them guide me through a process so that once I understand it, I can implement it on a consistent basis. And I think that’s really important to understand because if you try something and you’re an abject failure at it, the likelihood of you going back to it is just about nil.

Penny: Right, right. That’s very true. So what if sometimes – and I’m not saying this happens very often, but sometimes dentists will have members on their team that, if we’re honest, they don’t really like them. What do they do about that? Do they –




Dr. Urcavich: Well, it’s – every team has that. But that’s just indicative of what I’m talking about. What happens in a situation like that is not only does the dentist maybe not like them but there are other people in the office that feel tension with them, too. But there’s no mechanisms in place that are safe that allow you to actually address the issues so people start working around the individual who’s the problem. That just creates more work for everyone.

What’s happened is that the individuals involved in this have actually emotionally fired the person but they haven’t had the wherewithal to really speak directly to them about it. And so I put in place mechanisms with teams to help them understand that when they can get that on the table, you can have it actually salvage the relationship because when there’s a venue to address the real issues, you can express to that person what it will take for them to do to be rehired into the organization to actually be a fully vetted member.

Penny: So as far as having that conversation with maybe someone that you’re thinking that you’re not sure you want on your team anymore, even if it might be a business partner, because that happens, or an associate, at least half of the associateships in dentistry are not successful. A lot of partnerships fail and it’s painful, just like a divorce is. The employees are like, you know, the children. So whether it’s an employee or a business partner, do you ever find that the relationship’s too far gone to have the conversation or have you seen some of these conversations actually restore the personal and the working relationship?

Dr. Urcavich: It’s not either or. It’s both and. You only can go to a place that the people involved want to go to. If the people involved don’t want to resolve the conflict, I don’t care what you do. You could walk on water, you could change everything in the dynamic, and they’re still going to find a reason to separate because they’re fighting to disconnect rather than connect. And so what I would say is that any relationship can be repaired, but many relationships won’t be repaired.

Penny: And I know in your book you talk a lot about being free to be yourself, you know, and that we really at the root, we want to be known for who we are and we want – I might use the word “like,” but we really want to be loved for who we are. Would you expound on that?

Dr. Urcavich: Yeah. I think that that’s a foundational issue for us as human beings. And the reality is that most of the time we don’t know who we are and so we’re asking people to embrace us without us being able to consistently




project who we really are. We may see ourselves as a very compassionate, warm person, but if you talk to the people closest to you, they may say – may tell you that you’re a jerk or that you’re an individual who has no compassion and it’s like you don’t care. Until you’re able to have those soulful dialogues that are deep and safe and give you the opportunity to really inspect who you are because you are who you are within the context of relationships. It’s never your particular mindset. You have to talk to the people who are closest to you, then you begin to get a real image of who you are. And it’s at that moment you can either disrupt something that needs to be disrupted and changed or you can continue to blindly approach the future as though you know who you are.

Penny: And it would make sense, which from what you said earlier, really the best place – or best time to start would be now at whatever level. What I have seen is that if teams know who their doctor is when there’s not a massive amount of stress present, they’re better able to stay together, work together, and pull through things when the stress level gets high. And the stress level gets high in any business, but especially in healthcare because you’ve got systems profitability but you also have the dental office. Most people that come there don’t want to be there, you know. And I would say in most physician practices that’s the same, or hospitals. So how important is it, would you say, when the stress level is high that the team does know who the leaders are and vice versa?

Dr. Urcavich: Well, I think that’s important. And like I said earlier in our discussion, it’s important for the leader to know who he is because every leader moves on this continuum between who they are when they’re consistent with what they really value and who they are when they’re inconsistent. And on that continuum, if the people who work with them understand them, they can hold them to account and say would you like to have a different perspective on this. Because stress of work, just because of the work itself, usually can be managed by competent people. But stress when it’s attached to emotion and confusion is really destructive and that’s what happens with too many leaders. They project an attitude or an emotional idea that they’re not even aware they’re projecting and so it ramps everybody up and it causes everybody to be frantic when, indeed, if they could just talk through briefly in just a matter of a few seconds what it is that they’re really after and articulate it and give their support to the issue at hand, too, it would resolve things very quickly.

Penny: Do you find that many leaders, when they make attempts to give their expectations or articulate what it is that they want and maybe they even voice a frustration, well, I’ve told them, how often is it that really when you are – when




you have the whole group together or you’re with their team that it’s not clear? I mean, how do you find – what are the best ways for leaders to give a clear picture, and then how often do they have to reinforce it?

Dr. Urcavich: Well, clarity changes with the dynamics that are going on. You know, all you have to do is watch a sporting event. You look at the NFL. How many repetitions do each position have during the week to prepare for the weekend? And yet when that game happens, all hell breaks loose. The reason it does is because there’s too many variables. The same is true in any career path. And particularly when you’re dealing with people’s health, there’s all sorts of hidden things that are going to come to light and it’s going to change the dynamic. You can’t change the environment you’re in unless you change yourself. And so that’s what I’d say to a leader in the midst of whatever the crisis is in the moment. It’s not about what the crisis is. It’s about how you’re going to respond in that crisis. And you got to look at who you really are. Do you want to give yourself over to the little evil demons that are a part of your life, or do you want to actually be a leader that can take somebody somewhere in the midst of the crisis?

Penny: Often when – and I know this was true for me before I began to, you know, be involved in some of the classes and things that you’ve done. I thought leadership was, you know, you read this book and you get these ten principles, you have these novel ideas, and that it was more about taking a stand, you know, raising the standards, maybe even that old school leadership like we think of with the military. Right? You know, the captain or the commander gives the order and because they’re in the position that they’re in and you’re in the position you’re in, you just do it. And it seems, not that in some instances that’s not effective, because it is, but I know you’ve also done work with military as well. Can you talk a little bit about when that is effective and when it’s not effective?

Dr. Urcavich: Yeah. I think using the military as the example, positional leadership has its place and there has to be deference to position particularly in a structure like the military. It’s very, very important. However, the most excellent military leaders also understand the emotional component of their leadership and they understand what drives them and how they impact other people and that’s where the dynamic comes from positional leaders who don’t – the negative dynamic comes from positional leaders who don’t understand what it is that drives them and how they actually impact other people. Then they function on assumptions. And you know the old sayings about assumptions...it makes an ass out of you and me. And that’s the dilemma that people run into




in leadership. They take the positional model, they try to ratchet down on the people below them, and in doing that, they don’t understand that the worst parts of who they are as a leader is what they’re emphasizing and they are not reading the people that they’re actually trying to motivate or direct.

Penny: And when you think about – again, I’m going to go back to some of the textbook or even some of the – because I have to admit. I like some of the cute things about leadership. Right? I mean, there is some cutesiness to part of it and in dentistry most of the team members at this point are female and close to half of the graduates that are coming out of school are female. How important is showing sincere appreciation? Because I do think – you know, kind of going to the whole Venus/Mars thing. We all like to hear sincere appreciation, but I think as women I can speak to this, we have a little bit more of a need for it. What role do you feel that that plays in leadership?

Dr. Urcavich: I think one of the primary things a leader can express is the value of the people who are working alongside of them, male or female. If I’m working for a team leader who’s a female and she says to me, Joe, I really appreciate what you’ve given to our team. I really appreciate your insight into this issue. That makes me feel great. And I’m able to reinforce a female leader or a male leader for what they’ve accomplished and what they’re continuing to put out there in terms of their leadership style. It makes all the difference in the world. I think that you should always look for the thing that can reinforce the person before you look for the thing that you need maybe to give them a different perspective on.

Penny: And do you find that giving them a specific – you know, in other words, the example you gave was I really appreciate what you’ve done for our team, with our team. Do you find that giving a specific actually has them realize that you’re sincere versus, you know, it was great having you here, Joe? You know, the difference between those two, do you find being specific matters?

Dr. Urcavich: Oh yeah. I think it’s absolutely essential. If you’re going to offer anything in the role I play as a consultant, I have to be specific. I cannot deal in generalities. I have to be able to drill down and to actually make the application to the life of the leader.

Penny: Do you ever – what are some of the most common reasons that you hear that people put off or delay, procrastinate going to the level that you’re talking about going to, you know, as far as really talking about the issues in their business?




Dr. Urcavich: Well, I think – I think all people who have built businesses and assume that kind of responsibility have put so much emphasis on what they’re trying to do external to themselves that they almost look at the expense and the time to develop themselves is almost a waste of time, like you know, I just don’t want to make the effort to do this. I’ve got enough, you know, balls I’m juggling out here with all these people and stuff. I don’t want to take the time nor do I want to spend the money on this other thing and really what they’re doing is they’re defeating themselves because they can give their employees a beautiful building to operate in and they can give them all the latest technology. They can create an environment that’s wonderful to work in, but if they’re not building themselves, they’re not giving the person what ultimately they really need to want to stay there and want to function in the environment. I’ve seen this failure over and over again with business.

Penny: What do you think are – or what are some of the consequences that you’ve seen with leaders, you know, that are business owners that haven’t addressed these issues? What are the top consequences that happen?

Dr. Urcavich: Well, generally, I’ve found that leaders who are successful and don’t understand why they’re successful and do not make the move to understand why they’re successful because it has to do with those core values and really allowing them to flourish and be understood by the people around them. When leaders don’t take that step, it disconnects them from their success at work and it drives them to push it even harder at work and it creates a dynamic at home which separates them out because their spouse and their children begin to think that work is more important than they are and so it creates a problem at home.

Penny: Yeah. Yeah. I can definitely see that. What would you say as far in most of your experience, what about turnover, employee loyalty?

Dr. Urcavich: Well, I think that’s directly related to relational style. And by relational style, I’m not talking about there’s a unique style that holds people there. I think people stay where they know they’re valued, where they’re heard, and where they’re allowed to have an opinion that differs from the management. I think that that’s real critical.

Penny: Yeah. They can have an opinion that’s different without there being emotional punishment, maybe, that goes along with that.

Dr. Urcavich: Yeah. They’re valued for who they are as a person.




Penny: Now, we touched briefly on the dental business owner’s team at home, and sometimes part of their team at home is actually in the office. The dental spouse plays a role sometimes in the office. Sometimes they’re an office manager. Sometimes they fill in. Sometimes they’re not involved in the office at all from a standpoint of having a physical presence. And in a lot of cases, you know, the tension is visible. The team is even aware of it, whether it’s trying to get the doctor – whether it’s male or female – to come to the phone when they need to be chairside or how money is spent. Would you touch a little bit on some of that tension and maybe even how to begin to work through it.

Dr. Urcavich: Well, I think if using your illustration of a husband or wife working in the business of a male or female dentist sets up a perfect scenario for the whole office to be in a real state of chaos because of the tension between the two. The marital relationship is fraught with tension because the other person matters to you and so how they respond to you emotionally, how they respond to you intellectually in situations is really essential. And so what I would say in that kind of situation specifically but in all situations where there’s tension, whoever is the primary leader has to understand that if they define the problem, they have to have the solution to the problem. If you want a team solution, then you choose not to define the problem.

And very simply, if I were working with you and you were my wife, I’d say, hey, Penny – I’d get you alone and I’d say, hey, Penny, I’m feeling a little tension with you today. Do you feel it? And then you can respond, yes, I do or no, I don’t. And if you say yes, I do, I can say, what do you think that’s about? Now, all of a sudden, you can give an opinion without me already having defined it and in a matter of five minutes, we can resolve it and we can move on because I could either agree with you, yeah, I think you’re hitting the nail on the head or would you mind if I gave you another opinion on it. And all of a sudden, we can enter into a new way of dealing with business. But as a primary leader, if I sit down with you and say, all right, knock this off. This has got to stop right now. This is how we’re going to do this and this is how you’re going to handle it, I destroy everything about you personally for the sake of control. And that doesn’t foster a good relationship at home or in the marketplace.

Penny: And I would imagine that battle for control is higher when the stress level is high.

Dr. Urcavich: Oh yeah.




Penny: That’s when most people – which I know with different personality styles, you’ve got some folks that really strive, live to be in control anyway, but when the stress level is high, usually we’re a little bit more focused on that part because that’s the safety zone, is whoever’s in control. So with the –

Dr. Urcavich: Can I say one more thing about that, though?

Penny: Absolutely.

Dr. Urcavich: There is a time when somebody has to take control in a true crisis. Like, you’re not going to debate if your automobile starts to slide down the road how to do this and what you’re feeling over that thing. Somebody’s got to grab the wheel, take control of it, and put the vehicle in the right place. It’s when you do that all the time that you set up a pattern that’s destructive.

Penny: That makes sense. Yeah, I can see that point. If the car’s sliding off the road, well, honey, what do you think we should do? Should I put on the brakes, should I cut the wheel to the left or to the right?

So with the spouse that may not be working in the – physically working in the practice, you know, maybe they only come to the holiday parties, how do you handle – or how do you suggest going about including or involving them or maybe how involved should they be visibly in the decisions that are made in the practice if they’re not on the payroll necessarily as a practice employee?

Dr. Urcavich: Yeah. If they’re not really on the payroll and not involved in the day-to-day operation, I would say that the mate would want to inform them as to where the business stands almost maybe on a monthly basis, give a financial update, but I would be real reticent to throw the interpersonal issues that go on with the staff to a mate who is not involved in the marketplace and the reason is that person will develop attitudes and dispositions towards staff and once it’s resolved between the participants on staff, they’re going to still carry that attitude because they haven’t been part of the process.

Penny: That’s true. It’s like they haven’t tuned into that episode.

Dr. Urcavich: Yeah.

Penny: They’re still thinking about what happened in season one.

Dr. Urcavich: Absolutely.

Penny: And so let me tell you some of the things that I might share with a team when the spouse is considering coming to work in the office, which I’ve




seen it work really well and I have just as many references where I’ve seen that it wasn’t so great, and not that their marriage wasn’t good, but what worked for them at home, you’ve got more dynamics there in the practice, a whole lot more relationships there.

So what I suggest is that either A, they’re available to fill in, right, come in, rescue, save the day, you know, if someone called in sick or they really – if the spouse becomes a part of the practice, they are going to be held to a higher standard if they’re a full-time employee than the rest of the team whether it’s fair or not, you know. They’re holding them to really the same standard that they’re holding that business owner so not to say that they have to stick to this exactly, but you don’t want to come in at 10:00 and leave at 2:00, you know, if the other team members are having to be there at 7:30 in the morning for a huddle. You’ve got other families that are trying to get their kids to school, what have you, and then the office – you know, you’re there till the end of the day and then that other person’s leaving early. In other words, they’re there and they’re committed when it’s convenient. Can you touch on a little bit of your opinion of that dynamic or what challenges that might create?

Dr. Urcavich: I think there are benefits to ownership, but if they’re going to be utilized by a spouse, it needs to be on the table so everybody on that team understands and realizes that it will cause some tension because my wife or my husband’s only going to be here from 10:00 to 2:00 on Monday, Wednesday, and Friday and I want to talk to you guys about that now and I’d like to get feedback from you on it because we definitely need them over the lunch hours and so forth and, you know, they have a vested interest in this business. They’re co-owners with me. But the reality is with all the other obligations we have as a family, they’re only going to work these hours. So how do you feel about it and, you know, get it on the table and talk about it honestly so that everybody realizes they can have input on it.

Penny: Right.

Dr. Urcavich: I think that’s real important. I think the other factor around this is that it will have a dampening effect on honesty and dialogue in the office because staff will talk to each other many times about the primary leader. I’m not saying that’s good.

Penny: Right.

Dr. Urcavich: But it will unless – it will dampen the dialogue in the office unless the senior leader is able to pull the team together and to allow them to




have dialogue about the growing tension because there will always be an ebb and flow to the tension in the office on a consistent basis.

Penny: That makes total sense. And I think – to go back to what I mentioned earlier, not to say that a spouse can’t be there on a limited basis. I think the challenge comes in when they’re the business manager. In other words, my spouse is going to run the business and yet they’re not going to be here 50 percent of the time. I think that’s where some of the challenge comes in because they’re in that position of power and there are times when decisions need to be made and either A, they don’t have the full picture, or B, they need them and they’re not available to them so it can definitely create that dynamic. What would you say would be some of the benefits of having the spouse in the business?

Dr. Urcavich: Well, I think primary is that you have somebody who’s committed to the success of the business. I mean, their whole livelihood, their future, everything is there. Now, many people who don’t own a business or have never owned a business don’t understand the dynamic of feeling responsible for the wellbeing of other people. The spouse and the owner of the business, if they’re working in it together, really understand that they’re putting bread on the table for the children of the individuals who work for them and so there’s a vested interest there that is really, really strong. And so I think there’s a real benefit to that in terms of how the team will take seriously the responsibility to have under the leadership of a husband and wife team, let’s say. The difficulty will be if there’s not open communication. It will stifle the communication and it will create an environment where people don’t want to work there and they’ll wind up going somewhere else not because the people who lead it are bad. It’s because the people who lead it have not developed the skills that are necessary to pull other people in.

Penny: In other words, there’s almost so much unresolved tension that it just – it’s just uncomfortable to be there for whatever reason.

Dr. Urcavich: Yeah. Can I mention one other thing about this --

Penny: Absolutely.

Dr. Urcavich: -- that I think is really germane and it’s kind of a secondary thing but it is very important when you’re working with people in highly intellectually stimulating and highly trained professionals with them. People in dentistry and in medicine know they’re really gifted. They know they’re bred. But the fact is you could be extremely intelligent about the discipline you work




in and ignorant of the emotional impact you’re having on the people around you.

Penny: Yeah, I agree.

Dr. Urcavich: And so you have to be vulnerable in order to really grow in these areas and so the two things need to go hand in hand if you’re going to be successful in developing a business that has stability.

Penny: Well, I’m glad you touched on that as well because often – you know, I’ve been at this not long enough to know – I’ll never know everything, but I’ve been at this now about 22 years working with dental teams and I’m always looking for those connections. You know, in other words, because I want all of my clients to be as successful as they possibly can be in looking at what has these teams be more successful than these and it’s like what you mentioned. It’s usually not clinical skill. It has very little to do with how – in dentistry, how good their hands are.

Dr. Urcavich: Yeah.

Penny: It has to do more with their communication skills, not only in having patients accept treatment, but how good their communication is with their team, community, you know, everything. And it at the core is probably the quality of communication they have within themselves. They don’t have a lot of unresolved tension. They know who they are. They’re comfortable with who they are. Not that they think they don’t have faults but they’re comfortable in their own skin and really are able to let the people know around them that they value them.

Dr. Urcavich: Uh-huh.

Penny: One thing that I didn’t mention before we went down the road a little bit about spouses is – because I’ve been a part of them – the marriage boot camps that for years you’ve been a part of. And often when I’m talking with dental teams, I’ll use those types of relationships because I think it’s a great basis when you talk about risking yourself to connect. You know, and that was really where I began to hear it first. Can you go into a little bit about, you know, in order to really have a connection with someone, what it means to risk yourself to try to resolve whatever that tension is?

Dr. Urcavich: I think the primary ingredients really involve speaking directly to the person about how you feel and letting them know in the dialogue that, hey, Penny, I feel this way but I want you to know I might be 40 percent right on




this so just hear me out and then you tell me where this resonates with you and tell me where I’m missing it from your perspective because I’m trying to build something then that says let’s include each other in this decision and let’s move toward the goal line together. If I’m defining the issue and I talk to the other person in the office about it but not you directly, I’m setting us both up for failure because that triangulization will undercut everything about relationship in the environment we work in. And so I think the primary thing is being able to have an honest dialogue face to face.

Penny: And what if – because often that happens, when that happens, whether it’s the dental business owner or maybe the team members. They’re incredibly upset. I mean, usually it’s not a logically calm conversation that takes place when people are learning these skills. There may be a lot of upset involved. Do you just say grab the Kleenex box or – you know, how do you have that sort of conversation when you’ve not really done it before in a way that keeps the relationship safe without doing damage?

Dr. Urcavich: I would say – and let’s use you as the one who’s screaming and upset.

Penny: Oh, I could see that totally being me.

Dr. Urcavich: All right. I would say, hey, Penny, let’s take a couple minutes to sit down and talk. Why don’t you come into my office for a minute. And we sit down, and I say, look, I can tell you’re really upset. Tell me what’s going on. You know, what’s triggering this for you? Because what I would suppose it is, maybe it’s the way things got off to a start in the office and I’m looking at going, well, I know why she is upset. It’s because this first patient came in and this happened and this happened and she looked like a fool and you might tell me, no, I had a big fight this morning with my kid.

Penny: Right.

Dr. Urcavich: And I’m off on the wrong foot. And this has nothing to do with what we just went through. I can manage that, but my life’s a disaster right now at home. You’ve got to take the time to know who you’re dealing with and what you’re dealing with before you can resolve the problem. Most of us move so quickly from what we think the problem is to a solution that we don’t take the time to really include others in a philosophical grid about who we are, what our lives involve, what we really value, what we’re trying to accomplish with our practice and then to study an issue together so we can really come to an understanding of what the solution could be.




Penny: So when you’re looking at, not necessarily jumping to the conclusion to reach the solution, but moving forward to have the conversation, is that usually something that should happen sooner rather than later? I mean, maybe not immediately if you’re in a rage. You know, let’s say that you’re somebody that has trouble managing their emotions. Is there really any value to putting it off, or do you find that it’s usually better at the earliest convenience to try to sit down and have that conversation?

Dr. Urcavich: I would say maybe in the heat of the moment you just want to get through the crisis, but I would say as soon as you can once that initial tempest has passed. And you will find in a marketplace experience like you would in a home that most of your problems are not around the systems or the issues you think it is. There’s a hidden issue that needs to be expressed and needs to be dealt with and it’s usually philosophical in nature. My perspective of what the work environment is, my vision for what we should be doing, my values as a leader has somehow been compromised and that’s why I feel tension with you and you may not even understand that. We need to talk that through so we can have clarity on those issues so that as we move forward and begin to diagnose what the real problems are as we work together, we don’t get hung up on these surface issues.

Penny: Right. How do you determine – and I think we can begin to wrap up here. How do you determine when there is something like that that comes up because often it’s not between two people. It’s like what you mentioned. Somebody else has gotten brought in or they’ve subgrouped with somebody else. Is it better to try to go one on one first, or is there ever a time when if you’re not exactly sure who all to include, you know, it’s more than one person, that you sit down with several of you.

Dr. Urcavich: Yeah. I think if I were in a small office – and I’ve done this with small office groups – I’d have them all sit down. The reason is – including the leader. The leader would have to be in total agreement that they want to create an environment where there can be safety and where there can be expression and then I would encourage people to have honest dialogue about whether they trust the person or don’t trust the person and what that person would need to do to be rehired emotionally by them so they can have a team that can work together.

Penny: Well, I think that’s great. And I’m often asked questions, you know, how important is it if I’m going to work with you, Penny, that I’ve got the right team on board, you know, have the team involved? I’m like, well, you’ve got to have a group of people that are willing to follow your lead, you know, that are –




they may not love the thought of change but they’re at least open to supporting you in the change because it’s really about them following that business owner not so much about them following me. At some point, I won’t be there anymore.

Dr. Urcavich: Yeah.

Penny: You know, whether I come in for 8 hours or we have an off-and-on relationship for 12 months. So there’s that difference there.

So one final question for you: As a leader in the hiring and selection process – which it’s a dance, right? And you don’t really know people until – truly until after they’ve worked for you a little while, but what would you look for in the hiring and selection process as far as a team member that will, you know, work with you?

Dr. Urcavich: First of all, my personal priority would be I would want to know what it is that drives them. Consistently and inconsistently, I would want to use the mechanisms that are in – that I have access to. You have access to also –

Penny: Uh-huh. Assessments.

Dr. Urcavich: – to be able to assess the individual so I know, not what they’re personality is. Personalities are immaterial to the process in my way of looking at it. I really want to know deeper at an emotional level what is it that really pushes them forward. I want to understand that aspect of where they’re at on the continuum we talked about earlier. So that would be the first issue.

The second one would be: Do they have chemistry with the people around us? I would want them to meet with the individuals that are part of the team and see whether the team feels comfortable with them. And I would want honest dialogue in that meeting. I wouldn’t want simply, oh, you’ve got nice hair or, you know, stuff like that. I would want actually people to ask questions about what it is that motivates them and drives them and how do they work with people and give me an instance where you were really angry with somebody, how’d you handle it. Give me an instance where you were really happy in a work environment and what made you happy in that environment. What were the ingredients? I would want to know things they’ve already done in their practice that would allow me to see into who they are as an individual. Something they’ve already done. People are great on theory and really poor on delivery.

Penny: Sure.




Dr. Urcavich: So you want to know what they’ve already done.

And then the final thing is that I would want to make an assessment on their skills set. Do they really have the skills we need? So I would want that personal stuff, the best practices, the worst practices they’ve already had, and then their skill set. What do they have for the job at hand?

Penny: Yeah. And of course you’re cracking me up when you’re saying, hey, I really like your hair. I really like your hair, Joe.

Dr. Urcavich: Thank you very much.

Penny: You guys can’t see Joe, but Joe’s got like the Kojak hairdo.

But I so appreciate you taking the time to be with me today and to share this information with dental professionals. Any parting words?

Dr. Urcavich: No, other than I wish you well in the next step in whatever you choose to do, Penny.

Penny: Well, thank you very much.

Dr. Urcavich: And if I can support you in any way, I’m there.

Penny: Awesome. Awesome. And again, thank you so much, Dr. Joe Urcavich. And if you’ll go to the Growing Your Dental Business website and pull up this podcast information, we’ll have his contact information there as well. Thank you so much.

Dr. Urcavich: Thank you, Penny.

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Growing Your Dental Business Podcast with Penny Reedgrowingyourdentalbusiness.com/wp-content/uploads/... · Joe is a public speaker, leadership coach, and alignment advisor. Simply