Genius Network - Brian Kurtz and Marty Edelston Interviewed by Joe Polish

Joe Polish’s Tempe, Arizona office – headquarters for Piranha Marketing – isoften referred to by marketing insiders as “action central” for much of the entre-preneurial world. Though he made his fortune in an almost invisible niche bytelling carpet cleaners how to crush the competition and turn their small localbusinesses into money-churning machines, he is now among the most well-known, respected, “complete marketing geniuses” in the world.

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Insider Secrets of a Million Dollar CompanyAn Interview with Boardroom Inc. Founder Marty Edelston

And Boardroom Inc. Vice President Brian Kurtz

GeniusNetwork.comInterview Series

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Hello, friends and clients! This is Joe Polish, President of PiranhaMarketing. And today, I have got a couple of fantastic people that I’mgoing to be interviewing, from a company that you’ve heard a lot about,which is Boardroom, Inc. Can you guys hear me okay?

Yes.

Tell me where you’re at-right now. I’m in Tempe, Arizona and we’re onthe phone. Where’s your new offices located?

We’re in Stanford, overlooking the Long Island Sound.

Awesome! Well, thank you both for taking the time to be on the phonewith me and doing this interview. I’m going to get right into somequestions.

Marty, you’re a legend in the direct marketing business. You runthe largest consumer newsletter business, Bottom Line Personal, alongwith all your other publications. The majority of my listeners are veryfamiliar with Boardroom, and I would like to just pull whatever wisdom Ican get out of that brain of yours. I know there’s a lot. And along with you,Brian, you are an expert in direct marketing.

I just want to go into talking about, first, books. What are yourfavorite books, Marty? And give the listeners kind of some background onreading and what you perceive to be valuable material to read.

The best books I’ve ever read are things like How To Win Friends AndInfluence People, How To Get Control Of Your Time And Your Life. AndI’m using the principles of a good friend of mine – his life is veryscattered. So I’m getting him to write down, I hope, the things he wants toaccomplish in the rest of his life. I guess he’s about 50, 55. He’s soscattered, he hasn’t done it yet. So I just write him a note every couple ofdays and say, “How are you doing on your top 10?”

As soon as I get that list from him, I’m going to send it back and





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put it in order, which is the most important, second-most, etc. And that’sall from Allen Lanken.

My favorite book though, I think from a development standpoint,is Lateral Thinking, by Edward De Bono. He’s written all kinds of bookson thinking. Everybody should know about thinking. They don’t teach thatin any school in America. Lateral Thinking is available in the bookstores,and it’s a superb book.

Essentially, I don’t know why it got the name lateral. I think of itmore as vertical thinking. Just keep thinking on your subject untilsomething comes through properly.

All those books, Marty keeps copies of them in the office, gives them outto people – not just employees, but people outside. And he’s kind of taughtus that the great books are what kind of makes the world go around andthat when I interview somebody for a new job here or we talk about howare you going to get your life in order, whether we hire them or not, thesebooks are what Marty would call the great books. Some people will saythe great books are Charles Dickens and Nathaniel Hawthorne. I don’tthink there’s any fiction in the list of Marty’s great books.

And I’ll add one other quickie. We’ve always wanted to – and thisis sort of maybe a statement on what most people read and what they don’tread and why people do spend so much time going around in circles - wewanted to do a book that takes all these great books and puts excerpts intoa larger version, like a big hard-cover book with all the best of the greatbooks. Dale Carnegie How To Win Friends, Allen Lanken How To GetControl of Your Time and Your Life, Edward De Bono Lateral Thinking, Ithink Herbert Benson’s The Relaxation Response was one of them.

When we started putting this book together, we realized that no onereally wanted to read it, which is really sad. We couldn’t sell it. I will saythat. Everybody wants to read it, but it was a very tough book for us to selland actually make a profitable venture out of. And it really kind of speaksto a lot of what our whole business is about, that the stuff that’s reallyimportant, a lot of times, people ignore what’s right under their nose.





The greatbooks arewhat kindof makesthe worldgoaround...

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Absolutely. What I would say, and the reason I asked that question, is thatI look at what you do at Boardroom with the newsletters as really adistillation of wisdom. I think what Marty, your genius is, is the ability tolook at all the data of the world and distill out the wisdom, what’s reallyimportant for people to live better lives, run better businesses.

And with your ability to go through the enormous amounts ofinformation that’s out there and pullout the useful stuff and deliver it toyour readers in the way that you do is brilliant, because as the worldbecomes more complex with information overload and everything, I don’tthink people want to just sit around and read books and newspapers andgo to seminars and all that stuff. Some people enjoy doing it, but whatreally is the reason people do it, I believe, is because they want results.And the way you get results is you acquire capabilities.

So I look at what you guys are doing as really distilling wisdom outof mountains and mountains of data that’s out there, and then providing itto your clients in a way that’s useful to them and they can get capabilitiesin their life.

So that’s the reason that I ask, because it’s always useful to find outwhat it is that prompts your thinking and has allowed you to get insightsin the way that you live your life and run your business.

I think the fact that we continue to be very successful in a world ofinformation overload, that the idea that anything that we provide in ourpublications - theoretically - you could get on the internet in a nanosecond,if you have the right cable modem.

However, I think what you hit on is really key, Joe, that Marty’spension for knowing what’s important in a particular book, in an article,what the nugget is that’s going to help you do something, that we canactually format that still in a way that people really want it and they stillwant to buy it; as opposed to knowing if they did the research on theirown, they probably wouldn’t come up with the same kinds of conclusions.That’s an amazing thing for us. Marty, did you want to add something?





...It!salwaysuseful tofind outwhat it isthatpromptsyourthinking...

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I was just going to say how exciting it is going through this stuff. Andwhen you’ve been doing it for over 30 years, as I have, it gets easier andmore exciting when you find the nugget that you want to turn around.

It comes from conversations, too. I was just talking to one of myfriends who runs a farm newsletter in Texas, and I asked her what wasnew. And she told me a bazaar story, that she was working with a radiofarmer, that farmers would call in and give him problems and he wouldsolve it. And one of the problems was dealing with the fungus in the fields.So he told them to just put cornmeal on his fungus.

A week later, some guy calls in and says, “I had fungus on mytoenails and I listened to your program, and I tried that cornmeal and itworked perfectly. My nails are fantastic now.” And as that story gotaround, they’re getting calls regularly on the radio to soak your feet incornmeal.

I just want to add one little addendum, also, to this whole thing aboutreading and getting the nuggets, Joe. Because I think when Marty said thisto me many, many years ago, it was so meaningful because I think peoplelook at their bookshelves and they see dozens and dozens of books, andit’s very intimidating. And they say, “How am I going to get to all of that?I have this pile to read and I have that pile to read. And I’m never going toget to all of it.”

I remember Marty looked at me once, when I was complainingabout that one day, and he said, “You know, if you pick up a book and readtwo or three pages out of it, just pick up something from it, and then putthat book away and pick up another book, and pick up another few pages,that all of a sudden the intimidation factor of seeing these huge, thickbooks on your bookshelf becomes kind of a fun thing, as opposed to thispile that is staring you in the face, that you think you’re not reallyfulfilling at the highest level.

And I think that’s the way that Bottom Line is written. So I thinkyou can read like that and get a ton out of the great books. And I find that





...if youpick up abook andread twoor threepages outof it, justpick upsomethingfrom it,and thenput thatbookaway...

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most of the books on my shelf, I have not read cover-to-cover.

Yeah. That’s our great books, not the great books.

Not the great books, right. Our great books. But I think in books ingeneral. I think the great books, eventually you do want to try to get tothem cover-to-cover. But when you can, make sure you get somethinguseful that you can use in your everyday life. And these great books arechock full of stuff.

Absolutely. What you guys do is a service to millions of consumers. Youactually go through so much information and you identify what is usefuland you put it together in a very user-friendly, readable format that’s justchock full of useful stuff. And, on top of that, you do a phenomenal job ofmarketing that knowledge, which is two-fold of what I want to talk about.

I’ll give you one final quote on that, Joe.

Okay.

A consultant once said that Marty invented hypertext in 1971 and didn’teven know it.

Really? Now, you started Boardroom, Marty, in 1972. Correct?

Correct.

And just maybe real quick, background on what caused you to go into thatbusiness.

Well, primarily, I was very annoyed. I commuted from Jersey to New Yorkand I’d be on the commuter bus, reading, and I’d see people with businessmagazines reading, too. I got really troubled by that, because I figured they





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were getting something out of it and I couldn’t get anything out of themagazines. They were about IBM and AT&T. And I wanted to know howto buy and sell, how to manage, how to plan. There are books on that.Usually, in each book, there’s one good chapter.

So I thought about it and thought about it. I said, “I’m not crazy!These magazines are terrible.” But there is a way to get the essence of thatone good chapter in every book, and there are a lot of experts out there.

So I played around with the idea of a magazine, realized I didn’thave enough money to start a magazine, so I started a newsletter. And witha lot of work and attention to detail, it got off to a good start.

Right now, what is the current size of Boardroom, Inc.? What does itconsist of, in terms of publications and subscribers?

We’ve got almost a million subscribers to Bottom Line Personal. And thenwe have 3 special newsletters. One is on health, another on retirement, andanother one on taxes.

And then, I think, with the book division, which has become a big part ofour organization, we made them all the same subject areas. We starteddeveloping books on taxes and retirement, on consumer information andon health, and expanded all of that so that we could create our great booksfrom the same subject areas that we saw the newsletters going.

One thing that’s really important, I think, for your listeners to knowis that, in some ways, Boardroom, Inc. is kind of a misnomer, in that we’renot a business publisher, although everything we supply can help you inboth your personal and your business life.

But interestingly, over time, we kind of let the marketplace help usdictate what direction to go. And we went from Boardroom Reports as theflagship to Bottom Line Personal as the flagship. So the executive at homewas a much more lucrative market for us and one that needed a lot morefrom us.

Maybe not needed, because I think that the executive at business





I realizedI didn!thaveenoughmoney tostart amagazine,so I started anewsletter.

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still needed quite a bit as well. But we had a harder time reaching them. So from a marketing standpoint, going after the executive at home

was a much better way, and Bottom Line became sort of the key brand.And, in fact, before Boardroom Reports was eventually folded into BottomLine, actually we folded it into Tax Hotline, Boardroom Reports was calledBottom Line Business before it folded.

So we actually changed the name and, really, so many things in thecompany now are... In fact, I think we just printed up some hats that sayBottom Line Information on them, because Bottom Line has become thereal brand.

But Boardroom, Inc. is very important, I think, for our company tobe called because in direct marketing circles, Boardroom is a directmarketing university. It’s a place that people know of. And I think tochange the name of the company to Bottom Line is something that isprobably not a great way to go, but it’s important for your listeners toknow that Bottom Line is probably the brand of recognition, at this point,to the general consumer.

Absolutely. Just being out there, I would certainly agree that’s where mostpeople have the recognition and knowledge of it. “Oh, you ever heard ofBottom Line Personal?” “Yeah, yeah. I’ve seen that.”

What is the secret to going through all of the stuff, all of the data,all the information out there that you guys do, and distilling that wisdominto readable, exciting, interesting formats? How do you do it?

We have a big machine that starts out with books and magazines.Whenever we read about some new magazine, we look into subscribing toit. We have subscriptions to some publications that cost us over $500 ayear. We don’t wait for publishers to send us review copies, we go out andbuy them. So anything that looks like it could have some usefulinformation, we buy.

And I imagine, Marty, you probably spend a lot of time reading.





Anythingthat lookslike it could have someusefulinformation,we buy.

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I do. But we all do. Not the marketing people, but the editorial people gothrough piles very efficiently. They’ve been doing it for years. They areincredibly efficient.

So we go through and rip it out. And we have writers we send therips to, who are very experienced in pulling the essence out of each ideaand doing it legally, because we can’t just copy a few words. We have toadhere to certain legal restraints.

I’d like just a quick add-on. One thing I’d like to add. And I think Marty’seven being a little modest in that he really has taught everybody, on theeditorial staff especially, to question everything and be curious. Thatdoesn’t sound like any kind of a deep, dark secret, but most people don’tquestion everything and most people aren’t curious enough to get to thecrux of things.

I think, also, that our story meetings - and if you ever sat in on ourstory meetings, which I have - as a marketer, I’m just fascinated by theideas flying around the table about let’s do an article on this, how aboutthis, what’s this. So there’s a constant communication of what’s the anglethat hasn’t been explored before.

And then at the end of that discussion it’s, “Who’s is the numberone expert on that particular expert, that we can go find?” And usually, it’ssomeone who’s written the book on it, the quintessential book on it. Andthen that’s where the bigger articles come from, in terms of the interviews,what we call the A stories.

So that, combined with this voracious reading and questioningeverything, and being curious and ripping out every article that might havea tidbit that we can add into the publication, I’m just amazed at the bigarticles that come up and the big questions that end up getting answered.It’s a tribute to the network that Marty has built over the years, makingsure that we’re in touch with all of the best experts in the country, on everysingle topic.

I’ve just been sitting there, as a beneficiary of being able to meet





...questioneverythingand becurious.

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the experts in every area of life. I couldn’t have been luckier to have hadthat opportunity. I’m a marketer; I’m not even an editor.

I’m going to read something here on the inside front cover of Bottom LinePersonal, your newsletter. It says, “Purpose.” I love this. I think it justreally spells out what you guys do. It says, “Purpose: to help those who arevery busy with their careers handle their personal lives more effectively;to bring to them the best information from the most knowledgeablesources; to select and generate that information free from the influence ofadvertising.”

That just kind of spells out what it is that you do with finding theexpertise, putting it into a format that’s not a huge, daunting thing to read,and just giving people enormous amounts of extremely useful information,free from advertising. I’d like to ask have you ever considered usingadvertising or is there a reason why you have not done that?

Yes, I’ve considered it many times through the years. And I even figuredout how to bring it in. But I think at this time, it would be breaking apromise to our readers. We never got into serious discussions.

I’d like to add another thing to that, too. I don’t know if you know. If youremember from Marty’s bio, he spent most of his career - before startingBoardroom - as a salesman. And in most of that selling that he did, he wasselling advertising space in magazines.

So I think it’s the ultimate irony that probably the best spacesalesman of all time ends up launching the best publication that doesn’thave any advertising.

I think it’s hysterical that that is. That’s one of the reasons why I bring itup, because I was going to ask you, Marty, a couple of questionsregarding you selling advertising in the past.

There is that aspect. It is a great irony, though, because I think that what





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it’s done is it’s given us, as Marty said, it’s really given us an incrediblecredibility with our readers. It would be really hard to make it seem likewe’re not being objective when we go out to these experts. We’re notdoing laboratory testing when we do ratings of things and we doconsumer-type information, but we really have to be respectful that theperson that we’re going to, the expert that we’re going to is giving us theirbest thinking.

In addition, I think that the experts stay with us and they come backfor more, in terms of they do multiple articles with us over multiple years,and they keep coming back and they stay friends with us because we’re socautious and meticulous about making sure that we don’t misquote them.They get how many passes, Marty? 2, 3 passes of their articles before weactually go to press, so that they can change things at the last minute?

Really, it’s the opposite of when Marty and I get interviewed forthe press in direct marketing. If you’re quoted correctly, it’s the exceptionas opposed to being misquoted. In our editorial, one of the claims to fame,I think, is that everybody who’s ever been a source will tell you that theylove being a source for us because we take such good care of them.

Yes. If you were to put your publications next to magazines out there,there’s no comparison, what you provide in terms of content and usableinformation versus what is in most advertising-filled publications outthere. It’s a joke compared to how much useful content is contained in oneof your publications.

Let me ask you a question. You’ve already talked about it a littlebit, but I’d like to have you elaborate a little bit more on how youactually find true experts. And maybe if you could even define what is anexpert, in your opinion, either Marty or you, Brian.

This is for Marty

Well, first of all, we have a load of experts and our databank is gigantic.But we have a sense, if we’re doing a piece in a particular area, which of





If youcouldmaybedefinewhat an"expert#is, in youropinion...

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those has been most provocative in the past, most constructive. And thenwe go to them.

If we don’t have an expert in that area, we’ll go to our experts thatare in a related area. They have their own networks, so we get fabulouspeople that way.

Marty, at one time, didn’t you think that - and I guess it’s like morepeople can publish books these days than ever before, so it’s not a criteriaas it was - the idea of getting a book published and having it become kindof the work, the seminal work on a particular topic has always madesomewhat of an impression on it or makes a difference to you?

Well, that helps us come up with ideas, watching the book flow. And then,if we decide to pursue it, our writers can read the book first and have muchmore effective interviews, just like you do, Joe. You do a lot of researchbefore you do your interviews.

Yeah, absolutely. It helps. That’s really what you guys are. You’re agigantic research and reporting company.

And it’s got to be very clear, because I read everything. If I don’tunderstand it, it’s got to be redone and redone until I do.

I can imagine you being a very meticulous person in that particular area.Let’s talk about that a little bit. How many current employees do you haveat Boardroom right now?

We have 85.

85? And your revenue is, of course, in the million-dollar-per-employeerange.

Actually, we do close to $l00 million.





If I don!tunderstandit, it!s gotto beredoneandredoneuntil I do.

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Which, I think – and correct me if I’m wrong – from what I’ve read, that’s5 times the revenue per employee compared to the majority of Fortune 500companies?

That’s correct.

So you’re doing something right in that department. When I was readingsome background information about you, articles that you’ve been DirectMarketer of the Year for Target Marketing, you’ve been in Investor’sBusiness Daily: Leaders In Success, which is one of my favorite pages inany newspaper. They actually wrote about you. You made comments aboutthe employees and delegation. And I read that you don’t delegate, youcoordinate. And if you could, could you explain this? And also, pleaseexplain what you mean when you say, “Managed by agenda?”

Yes. They tie in together. I do give projects to people that I meet withregularly to follow-up on and ask more questions as it moves along.

Through the years, I have a lot of energy and I can work with a lotof people, I don’t have to work with 85 every day, but I’ve developeddifferent systems that allow me to follow-up and follow-up with people.

When I went down and visited you guys, probably 3, 4 years ago, do youstill keep mini recorders on people’s desk, to leave messages and stuff for?Because I remember picking up that idea when I was there, and I use ithere at Piranha.

Mini recorders?

There was like a mini recorder. I don’t know if Marty did this. It was amini recorder. It was on a couple of the people’s desk where, when theywould work with each other, they’d go and leave a message for someoneon the top of everyone’s desk, when they’re just giving an idea or a





"Don!t delegate,coordinate.#

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delegation. Do you do that at all?

The I-Power System, with the advent of e-mail – and I guess you’re goingto ask us a little bit more about I-Power...

Oh, yeah. That’s one of the best things.

It’s a suggestion hat system, but it’s much more than that. But I think thatthere are a lot of opportunities between e-mail, voicemail, constant notesgoing back and forth. I don’t know if there’s anyone methodology that’sbetter than another, but the idea of making sure that all the ideas get to theright person who can implement them is critical to how the companyworks.

And I think the other aspect of that, that’s I think really beenamazing to watch this company, because we’ve been doing it for quite along time, the concept of managing by agenda, so many of our meetings,the way the meeting gets organized is that everybody gets a blank sheet inadvance of the meeting with some key headings. “What I’m concernedabout. What I’d like to discuss with everybody. What’s coming up.Opportunities. Accomplishments.” Sort of like big headings. Andeverybody who’s coming to the meeting will put something onto thatagenda under one of those headings and then someone, whoever isorganizing the meeting, can put all of that together.

What happens is the agenda is being created by the employees andwhat’s on their minds, what things need to be prioritized at a higher level.I just think it’s an amazing system that, again, is so simple but the resultsare fantastic. The kinds of ideas that start running around the table whensomeone puts one of their accomplishments on there - not because theywant to brag, but because they were told to put an accomplishment on theagenda - and then someone else can feed off of that and come up withanother idea that’s better or different or an extension of.

That’s the way the company really works. It’s not so much whetherit’s a recording device on someone’s desk or whether it’s an e-mail





...makingsure thatall theideas getto theright personwho canimplementthem iscritical...

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correspondence, or whether it’s items on a long agenda that theparticipants of the meeting are actually contributing. All of that, I think,contributes to the same type of thing in terms of managing by agenda andmaking sure that the priorities are in right place.

What I do now, Brian was really describing how our executive committee,which has about 20 people on it, runs. Now I come to the meetings with apocket full of money. If I hear good ideas, I award them to the people. Idecided to put a penalty on. If they don’t give us an idea for the agenda,they have to pay $2. And if they don’t show up at the meeting, they haveto pay $3.

Right. And then Marty will maybe use it for refreshments. So sometimesthere’s a payoff for those of us who always bring good ideas to themeeting.

Exactly.

I’ve been eating very well. I will tell you that.

That’s great. What I think it really boils down to - and I’d like you to gointo the I-Power System, I think it’s phenomenal and I’d like you todescribe that to the listeners - is what you said earlier in the interview,Marty, right at the very beginning, where people don’t think. And I thinkyou’ve developed a system that just gives people the ability to think, andyou reward them for thinking and now you’ve instilled a punishmentsystem if they don’t. And you’ve transformed your business, as a result ofdoing it. And I know you’ve transformed many companies’ businesseswith this management system and with the idea generation. So if youcould maybe give us a background on I-Power.

Sure. Very briefly. Actually, it’s a failure. Overall, the program is a greatsuccess. But it started out as a failure. It came from a conversation with





Overall,the systemis a greatsuccess...but itstartedout as afailure.

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Peter Drucker. I was with him one time and he said, “Want to make yourmeetings more interesting?” I said, “Sure.” He said, “Well, haveeverybody come to the meeting with an idea on how to make the businessgrow or how to cut costs.” I thought that was great and I had a meetingscheduled for some people the next day. And I sent a little note around,asking the people to make some suggestions. It was a fantastic meeting,and I wrote everything down as fast as I could. Then I lost the list.

So I did it again and I got another pile of good ideas, and I lost thatlist. And that’s not good. So I sat down and thought it through. I just can’tdo it all. So I had everybody, at the next meeting, write it down. And thenwe developed little pads for them to fill it in on. And I went through them.

Actually, the key was making those little two- or three-part. So one copywould go to Marty to evaluate, but then one would go into a hat so that itcould be registered in a more central database of ideas so that they nevergot lost. Plus, I think it was very important, at that point in our history, forMarty to be looking at all of them because he had the best aerial view ofthe company and what could be the big ideas and what could be the stuffthat we should just do it and that type of stuff.

So the evaluation phase was very important. It was important forMarty to evaluate, but it was also important to give the people credit forthe ideas and to have them posted and all that. So I think the combinationof a system that documented them plus gave Marty an opportunity to stillevaluate them was the beginning of why the system worked so well.

I think, also, and I don’t say this critically, that most suggestion hatsystems or suggestion boxes or whatever, the system runs out veryquickly. People lose momentum because even if they’re putting ideas inthe hat, no one’s checking the hat, no one’s checking the box, no one’sreally committed to it.

And I think what we did with I-Power, as Marty says in his book,is we made it really, really simple, so that it became part of the fabric ofeverybody’s job. It really wasn’t something that was a separate thing, thateverybody felt was this box that was sitting in some central part of the





"...haveeverybodycome tothe meetingwith anidea onhow tomake thebusinessgrow...#

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company. We had I-Power hats allover the place. We had more hats thanwater coolers. So there was just so much opportunity for idea generation,idea submission, idea checking - and again, I don’t say this critically - itbecame more quantity than quality in the initial stages because you justwanted to get as many ideas out there as you could on a regular basis, andthen worry about evaluating them.

And I’ve seen a lot of suggestion systems that, if the quality isevaluated right away, it diminishes, first of all, everybody’s self-worthbecause they come up with an idea and you say, “Well, we can’t do thatnow, so I’m not putting that in the hat.” That takes away their motivationto come back again with an idea later on.

So the idea is to get the number out there first, and then evaluate it.It’s sort of like a brainstorming concept, that quantity is important anddon’t evaluate them right away. We’ll have more than enough time toevaluate them later. And I think by setting up quantity systems first, it gaveus a much better quality system, in my opinion anyway.

We had a lucky accident. Through some of the ideas, we started making alot of money, and then more money. And I realized I had to share that withthe people. So we set up a quarterly distribution and called it profit-sharing.

One time, I was working on that distribution and I realized thatsome people are submitting the ideas and others aren’t. So we set a quotaand insisted that everybody shares in the I-Power now and has for a longtime. So we give them some of the profits that we’re making, and they feelvery good about them.

Our system has been running for 11 years. It’s had one interestingside benefit that no one could have predicted, that in those same 11 yearsour staff of 85 to 100 employees has not had a single divorce. And in thistime, that’s incredible. I just think the system supports their egos, so theycan deal with the arguments at home better.

Wow! That’s interesting. I first came into the funnel with your company





By setting upquantitysystemsfirst, itgave us a muchbetterqualitysystem.

17

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and organization by attending an I-Power seminar that was put on by anabsolutely fantastic guy by the name of Ken Glickman.

You’ve done tapes with Ken. Like two of them.

Oh, yeah. I did an interview on I-Power with Ken, which I encourageeveryone of my listeners who’s hearing this, if you’d like to hear that, Ihighly recommend it on top of the book, which they can get directlythrough you guys. Correct?

Yeah. You can get it in bookstores, I guess. I haven’t gone on Amazonrecently, or Barnes and Noble, to see how easy it is to buy online. Chancesare, if it’s someone that knows you, Joe, that Marty will probablyautograph a copy for them.

That would be great. I would highly recommend any of the listeners, if youwant to learn more about I-Power, Marty did write a book called I-Power:The Secrets Of Great Business In Bad Times. And I’ve got it sitting hereright in front of me, and the I stands for - there’s all kinds of things - butwhat it says on the cover of the book is ideas, ingenuity, invention,incentive, individual, invigorate, inquisitive, innovation, inspiration,intelligence, imagination and improvement. And it’s all about just constantimprovement. And it’s an awesome system.

It’s a system that we use at Piranha, and I know you’ve hadhundreds, if not thousands of companies incorporate this system. I thinkit’s one of the most amazing systems of idea generation and not havingpeople feel like their batteries were drained by giving ideas that never goanywhere just because of the little tweaks that you’ve done. And I thinkthe mistakes and the failures that you talk about, Marty, in the beginning;is what has allowed you to develop the program to the level that it is.

Correct me if I’m wrong. Didn’t your revenue, once you startedusing your system of having your employees bring ideas to the table,didn’t it go something from like $25-million in revenue to over $100-





...and nothavingpeople feellike theirbateriesweredrainedby givingideas thatnever goanywhere.

18

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Joe:

million without adding any staff?

That’s correct. Incredible.

Yeah, that is huge. I didn’t want to skip over it, because I think a lot ofpeople that have never heard about this, that will be listening to thisinterview right now, don’t realize the impact of this system that you havedeveloped. So I’d encourage anyone to read the book and to get moreinformation. Anything else that you two would like to add about I-Power?

I think that’s more than enough.

Okay.

If you have any ideas for us, Joe, send them along.

I have a million.

I know. You’re an idea machine yourself.

I love I-Power. I think it’s awesome. I think every business in America -well, all over the world - could dramatically benefit and utilize I-Power. Ilove it. That’s what I’ll say.

Let’s go back to your past life, before Boardroom, where you soldad space in the Yellow Pages, Cosmo, years ago. I’d like to ask you, Marty,what did it teach you? And can you maybe elaborate on a story or two,where you made it easy for the other guy, the guy or gal to buyadvertising from you, to say yes?

The Yellow Pages was my first job at college. When I sat down the firstday, the woman next to me said, “I hope you last longer than the last guy.”Incidentally, that noise that you hear now is the Edelston hour.





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Brian:

Joe:

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Marty has about 25 clocks in his office, and he’s got a lot of differentalarms and stuff. I think when we start getting the big alarms, Marty, wemight have to take a break from this interview and go to the bathroom orsomething.

You know what? We’ll go right back to what you’re going to say, Marty. Ihave actually seen some of Marty’s art collection. So at some point duringthis interview, Marty, if you could maybe share some of your insights onit because you have one of the most eccentric, wild offices and artcollections that a person is ever going to see.

Meaningful art, too. Every piece has a lesson. So that’s the amazing thing.

Absolutely. You gave me a tour of the whole place, explaining whatdifferent things meant. Talk about the two trapeze people, people workingtogether. And the clubs, I remember the clubs of virtues. I’m not sure ifI’m getting that right.

It’s perfect.

Okay, so you were talking to someone about advertising space.

Yeah. At Yellow Pages, I sold more increases in business than anyone elsein a 40-person office. And that came from just not wanting to get fired. Iplanned every night - I was single at the time - and I went out all day andmade more calls than anyone else. More people said no to me than anyother salesmen, but more said yes also. So it was the yeses that counted.The no’s weren’t so bad. But then, I didn’t like the no’s, so I came up witha system and I had a notebook. At the end of every day, I sat down andmade a list of all the objections that people threw at me, whether theycrippled my pitch or not. I made a list. Oh, that’s another one of my clockshere.





I sat downand madea list ofall theobjectionsthat peoplethrew atme...

20

Brian:

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Brian:

Joe:

Marty:

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Marty:

There’s a train going around a clock right now.

You know, we should have this on video. That would be actually very cool.You should probably snap some pictures of this stuff for me; and thenwhen people hear this interview, they’ll actually know what it is thatthey’re hearing in the background.

I apologize, Joe.

No, hey, what the heck. You have a huge company. You’ve earned yoursuccess. If you want to have 4-million clocks in your office and all kindsof crazy things, I certainly think you’re entitled to it and I think it adds anenormous amount of life.

It feeds into the culture of the company. There’s an incredible love andspirit that are throughout this company. And having been here for 22 yearsand seeing it grow, that spirit hasn’t changed one bit in the whole time I’vebeen here. It’s only gotten better. It’s only gotten even more familial, moreloving, and more ingenious.

Yeah. And isn’t that what it should be all about? People spend themajority of their lives at work. They should come to a place that has apersonality behind it. Most offices you walk into are so dully-boring andbureaucratic, to me it’s nauseating.

Yeah, I know. We’re not that. I will say, too, Marty, you mentioned thatthere is no no. That’s become one of our credos. Even today, in 2003,where everything is sales when you think about it, whether it’s sellingthrough direct mail, whether it’s trying to create a partnership withanother company, whether it’s negotiating what we’re going to have forlunch. There is no no. Marty has got us all thinking in those terms all thetime. And I think it started in those early days at the Yellow Pages, that





Peoplespend themajorityof theirlives atwork.Theyshouldcome to aplace thathas a personalitybehind it.

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there was no no. Even his no’s, he learned something from. But then hewent back to them, got his objections on paper.

Those sales lessons are so universal for how we run our businesstoday. And it’s not a question of just being pushy salespeople. We’re veryaggressive in our direct mail. We do, I think, some of the best sales copythat’s ever been written. And I think it’s no coincidence that the companywas founded by the best salesman ever. That part, I think, has transcendedthe whole history of this company.

What else would you say, Marty, just on sales?

I think planning pays. So I planned each of my calls. I knew just what Iwanted to do. Sometimes, I’d walk in on a customer with 2 arms full ofYellow Page books from allover the country, show them different kinds ofads and the one that I would like to copy for him or her.

They’re excited when they see their own name in lights, so to speak.Marty’s still a master at that.

Yeah. Now you’ve actually gone from, of course, the way that anyonegrows a business with direct mail is you take the best sales promotions, thebest sales pitches and you put it into copy and you put it into the form ofa sales letter, and now you guys have a sales force of probably 50-millionor more a year of sales promotions put into an envelope and mailed.You’re a massive direct mailer.

I’d like to have you talk about now going into from being sellingadvertising to becoming a direct marketer, and all of what you’ve done inthe process. Maybe talk about Mel Martin, your copywriter, and how youguys developed the technique of fascinations for direct mail and the thingsthat you’re really famous for with your promotions. If we could talk aboutthat a little.

One of the categories that I called on early on, after I left Yellow Pages,





I thinkplanningpays.

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was mail order people. So I lived with those people; I learned from themevery day, something about copy, about products, about concepts. Andalong the way, one of the best, most inspiring people was Mel Martin.

At one time, he worked for New York Times Books, and he createdan incredible situation, and he convinced top management that they shouldtake some of their empty space and devote it to their book division. Andhe created unbelievably good ads.

His ads were so good and so entertaining that it was better than thenewspaper. But they stopped that free exchange for him pretty quickly,because other book publishers who were important to the Times objectedand didn’t think it was fair for the Times to take advantage that way. Well,Mel and I kept in touch through his lifetime. He wrote a package for us,which was very important. “What not to eat on an airplane.” He learnedthis from seeing the advertising created by Ralph and Shurshana ofInnsburg. And Ralph and Shurshana are friends of mine. Fascinatingpeople. And they did probably the first fascination advertising.

Mel sort of took it apart, figured out how they did it, and then hedid it for the rest of his life magnificently, finding the oddity.

How would you describe fascinations in terms of what is the purpose ofwriting that type of copy? What is it that you’re trying to do to the reader?

Well, I think it’s to grab their attention. If any of you buy my product,you’ll find out the answer.

I think, also, there’s been an evolution in the fascination approach as well.And I think that there was the great Gene Schwartz, who was another ofthe great copywriters who, in the same era, would go through a book thatyou and I and Marty would probably think is pretty boring and be able tocome up with the tidbit that, in some respects, it’s always the sizzle beingbetter than the steak. The steak’s still not that bad. We’re not selling badmeat, but that the sizzle was so important to get the reader’s attention.

Gene had this knack of being able to go through these big books





...the sizzlewas soimportantto get thereader!sattention...

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and just call this stuff out, which Mel did, which Ralph Ginsburg did. Andit’s an amazing technique. And I think what’s happened today, in today’sdirect mail, is that the consumer has gotten a little bit tougher in terms ofwanting to be shown something a little bit more. And I will say that, overtime, there’s a lot more direct mail out there that I’ll say gives away alittle bit more of the steak in the direct mail campaign, so you seefascinations.

To use an easy example, “Here are the 10 things you need to knowto prevent a heart attack.” You give 5 of them in the direct mail copy. Toget the other 5, you have to get the book that we’re selling, or thesubscription. But the idea that there’s actually real steak in the direct mailpromotions these days, I think, has been an evolution over time. I’m notsaying in the early days that there wasn’t. I’m sure Marty could findexamples of situations where they gave away some steak back then too.

But I think the consumer has gotten a little bit tougher and a littlebit more discerning. I don’t know if you agree with that, Marty, but that’swhat I’ve seen over the last bunch of years, anyway. I mean a much moredemanding consumer. But the techniques still work. The idea offascinations is still such an incredibly-powerful technique.

Right. I’m finding that.

My whole business is built around compelling sales copy and emotionalcopy, and using copywriters and writing in a way that causes people todesire what it is that I sell and back it up with a sense of urgency, socialproof, powerful headlines, calls to action, all of that stuff. Whatsuggestions or tips can you, Marty and Brian, give to the listeners onmaybe some fundamentals, things that you’ve learned about havingsuccess with direct marketing, that people should really know? Like thepower of copy or anything.

Well, copy is very important. Everything’s important: the copy, the art, thelist. Just knowing how to mail is very important. Understanding how the





Everything!simportant:the copy, the art, the list... justknowing howto mail isvery important...

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post office works. We spent a lot of money for copywriters. Some of ourcopywriters have been paid over $l-million a year by us.

Wow!

And I love paying them that much, because that means they’re doing a hellof a job. But we might pay, we have paid as much as $100,000 to the rightcopywriter, to write on a particular project.

I’d like to repeat what you just said there, Marty, because I think it’scrucial. You said that some of your copywriters you’ve paid over $1million and you’re happy to pay them that

Right

I think that says so much about your ability to have grown your companyand developed this, which has reached millions and millions of consumersthat you’ve reached and you’ve helped through your publications, whichcomes from the fact that it doesn’t matter how good your newsletters oryour books are if nobody buys them and gives you money for them.You’ve not only developed awesome products and publications, butyou’ve also done a phenomenal job of selling them using powerful copy.

You’re willing to invest money into copywriters and people towrite that powerful copy to make that happen. My belief is that copy is theoxygen that makes your sales letters work and makes your campaignswork. And I can’t tell you how many hundreds, if not thousands, ofpeople that I’ve come into contact with that have the exact oppositeattitude of you. They try to be cheap with their copywriters. They don’tunderstand the value of it.

What was it that flipped the switch for you, that allowed you to seethat man, powerful copy is what’s going to allow me to take a campaignand grow it? How do you get that mindset?





It doesn!tmatterhow goodyournewslettersor yourbooks areif nobodybuys them.

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Well, a lot of that was by Dick Benson, who found a way to get a greatcopywriter to work for nothing, as long as he got paid a nickel an order.Essentially, he was getting a royalty, the copywriter. Dick Benson got thisHenry Callen to work on a royalty basis, and Henry, whose business at thetime was slow, said, “That sounds good.” And he made millions every yearon that royalty concept. And then that rolled down into the rest of theworld.

They heard about it. And the tougher copywriters insisted onroyalties. So it was easy to see that it was worth it; he paid more, but hegot more.

I think in the early days of the royalty copywriters, too, as Marty said, youwouldn’t even have to pay them upfront. They were willing to put theirmoney where their mouth was, as we were. So we were in it together.

I think as time has gone on, the best copywriters, that top of thepyramid is still not as large as we would like it to be. And a lot of thoseguys and gals get an upfront fee in addition to royalties these days. Butagain, going back to what Marty said, if the results are there you’d be sillynot to pay it.

The other side of that, and I think you were kind of hinting at thistoo, Joe, and I think it’s an important concept, not just about copywritersand royalties, but just how you run a business. You’ve got to run abusiness with incredible integrity. That’s what Marty started the companyon. There’s no one with more integrity than Marty and what he’s instilledin all of us, And to that end, for example, if we made a deal with acopywriter that was so much in our favor that it was unfair, we’re the kindof company that would actually instead of saying, “This is a windfall forus, screw the copywriter,” if it’s someone that we have a great relationshipwith, we might go back to them and pay them a bonus or come up with anew structure or do something retroactive,

And, of course, we expect the other to go the other way, too. Whenwe make a deal with somebody and the deal doesn’t go the way wethought, and we end up losing our shirt when we shouldn’t have, we hope





...if theresults arethere,you!d besilly notto pay it.

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that people will have that same level of integrity to make a fair deal. Andthe whole idea is fairness. Frankly, I’ve been more disappointed. As yousaid, most of the people that you meet in your work are pennywise andpound-foolish when it comes to copywriters. I think a lot of people arepennywise and pound-foolish in terms of the integrity of their business andhow they run it.

You only go around once. I don’t understand that kind ofmentality, especially in a business like direct marketing, where everythingis shared. We’re all using the same mailing list, we’re all using the samecopywriters, we’re using a lot of the same approaches. There’s so muchthat’s being shared to begin with, to start being cut-throat in the way thatmost people have been cutthroat over the years in business just doesn’tseem to work in direct marketing.

Marty taught me a lesson very early on. My first 10 years, I spentmostly in the list business and made my name in the list industry first,before doing more direct marketing stuff on the whole with Marty. And Iremember Marty telling me early on that when I was selling mailing lists,that selling lists is not an or, it’s an and. And what he meant by that is thatif my list works and your list works for a particular mailer, both lists aregoing to be in the mail plan.

It’s not a choice. If they both work, they’re both going to getmailed. And just that spirit of camaraderie that direct marketing entails, it’smore an and business than an or business kind of permeates everythingwe’ve done since. It’s how I run my business life now, and I’m no longerjust a list guy. But that’s, I think, the roots of where I came from. It reallygoes back to some of those early lessons that Marty gave me, about andversus or.

That’s powerful stuff. That’s great thinking on that. Not that the listenerdoesn’t already know this, I want to reiterate it. How many letters do youguys mail a year, currently, on average?

Our mail quantities have been as high as 120, l30 million pieces a year.





...beingcut-throatjust doesn!tseem towork indirectmarketing.

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And that’s just not letters; that could be different formats. What we callmagalogs, some of the stuff is number 10 packages, number 10 envelopes.

Right now, with the cost of postage and the ability to segment interms of database marketing, we actually can mail a lot less at a higherprofit. So I don’t want people to be a slave to a number. Copywriters are,if they’re getting paid a royalty. They want to hear that we’re going tomail... “I hope you’re going to mail 10-million pieces instead of 5.”

But I can make the case that we have mailings that, at 5 millionpieces, we’re a lot happier mailing 5 million than 10 million if at 10million we don’t get our return on investment that we really want.

So I don’t want the listeners to think that we run around and bragabout how many names we mail. But we are a big mailer. On any givenyear, it’s going to be somewhere between 50 and 100 million pieces,depending on what’s hot, which products are doing well, which newproducts we get a new control.

And, again, we have one creative director who once gave me anexpression that I thought was one of the best, which is “The control is yourenemy.” I think that beating the control, if you’re not hell-bent on doingthat every minute of every day, then you really are not cut out for directmarketing.

Marty, what’s the expression, long live the king? The king is dead,long live the king. So we get a new control, we get 100% list in a response,and the first thing we think about is, “Okay, who are we going to hire tobeat that control now?” Now, we’re going to rollout with that control andmake a lot of money and do very well, but we’re going to also be totallyaggressive in wanting to beat that.

I think we have to explain what a control is.

A control would be the existing package, the best package. There’sanother expression that Dick Benson taught us. He said, “The bestpackage is the best package.” So whatever your control package is meansthat that’s the package that you’re trying to beat. It’s the one that’s the





The control isyourenemy.

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current winner. You’re always trying to beat the control. Whatever yourbest package is, you probably can beat it. You just have to figure out whatchanges you have to make, whatever that item is.

The other beauty of direct marketing is that little things mean a lot.A few changes of words on an order card makes all the difference in theworld. Sometimes a color on an envelope can make all the difference inthe world. You always want to do this.

This always fascinated me: there was one award that was given indirect marketing. I believe it was called the Axel Anderson award. It wasan award that was given to a control that was able to stay the control formore than 5 years. And I remember writing a letter to that publication thatwas giving away that award, and I called it “the Ironic Award.” I said, “Itseems to me that if you have the same control package for 5 years, asopposed to being proud of yourself for having such a good controlpackage, I maintain that you probably weren’t testing enough.”

Yeah.

So I think in that respect, the king is dead, long live the king. If you don’tkeep on trying to beat the control, again, in direct marketing, that’s whatmakes my life interesting, makes Marty’s life interesting. How are yougoing to beat this? This is the best thing we ever saw. Now, how are wegoing to beat it?

That actually is fantastic wisdom for everyone of the listeners. I havetalked a lot about controls, and most of the people listening have it. I’mglad Marty asked you to define that. Everyone out there listening, ifyou’ve got a particular Yellow Page ad, a particular postcard, a newspaperad, all of those could be looked at as a control. It’s like what is it doingnow and can you beat it? Can you beat the results, which goes back to whyyou absolutely have to track your numbers. You have to know what yourcost per lead is, your cost per sale, and all of those things in order to beatthe control.





This isthe bestthing weever saw.Now howare wegoing tobeat it?

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“The control is your enemy” is something that is so good, I’mgoing to actually take that, Brian, and put that on a sign on the wall. It isgreat advice. I want to say that for any of the listeners out there, you shouldsubscribe to all of Boardroom’s newsletters, all of their publications, justto be on their list. It’s a great marketing education in and of itself, justseeing how they market. And I’d encourage everybody to do that.

One thing they can do immediately, just so you know, we haven’t reallytalked about the internet and e-mail, while we think that it’s a very gooddistribution channel and a very good medium, to think that it’s the be-all,end-all, I think, is a mistake that some people have made.

On the other hand, I think you have to pay very, very closeattention to it and I would encourage everybody and every one of yourlisteners, if they go to our web site, www.Boardroom.com orwww.BottomLineSecrets.com, I think you end up in the same place oneither of those URL’s. There are two e-letters that we offer, both free. Oneis sort of a general consumer e-letter called Bottom Line Secrets. And oncea week, they’ll get an e-letter from us with 6 or 7 links to different articleson different topics. And then we also have something called Daily HealthNews. “Daily,” in Connecticut, is 3 days a week. But anyway, it’s a 3-day-a-week newsletter that, again, it’s just on the health category, but they’llget free information.

We do embed ads, and that’s the secret to keeping those afloat andwhy they’re successful. But again, we’re giving away very valuableeditorial information for free. So while I encourage all of your listenersand customers to subscribe to our paid newsletters, there are 2 freee-letters that I encourage them to sign up for, as well.

Awesome. Awesome. Same here. I encourage them to do everything theycan, to get a hold of everything.

I have a couple of ideas for the carpet cleaners.





I!m goingto takethat,Brian,and putthat on asign onthe wall...

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Alright.

I have a couple of special ideas for your listeners that tie into my YellowPage experience. One is that they go to the library, wherever there’s a hugecollection of Yellow Pages or see if the telephone company will let you sitdown with all the Yellow Pages from throughout the country, and thenlook at the ads in your category throughout the country. See which onesyou like and copy them.

That’s awesome advice. That’s amazing advice, Joe, that Marty just gave.

Absolutely, versus letting the Yellow Page ads just basically make the adup for you, and just take pieces of this ad and that ad and throw them alltogether. Absolutely.

There’s an expression that one of the great newsletters in our trade, in thedirect mail business, it used to be called Who’s Mailing What by a guy bythe name of Denny Hatch. And now it’s called Inside Direct Mail. But it’sthe same basic newsletter. It’s a wonderful newsletter that basically trackseverything that’s in the mail at any particular time. I believe it wasDorothy Cur, who’s a good friend of Marty’s and mine, who’s been in thecirculation business for a long time. And I think she gets credit with thephrase “steal smart.” I remember that it was actually a lead article in theWho’s Mailing What newsletter very early on, in the history of thatnewsletter. And the whole newsletter was launched on the concept ofstealing smart. You look at what’s working, you look at what’s out there.Somebody has spent a lot of money, time, ingenuity to come up with theideas. You don’t have to rip them off word- for-word, but you certainly aregoing to get tremendous ideas.

And the beauty of what Marty just said, I think, also is that theseYellow Pages are all regional. It’s a small company in a small city, andyou’re going to be in a completely different part of the country. Absolutely,steal smart. What an amazing idea. If I was a carpet cleaner, I’d be at the





Stealsmart...

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library now.

Exactly.

Thank you, Marty.

I have another idea for Yellow Page advertisers.

For Yellow Page or for carpet cleaners?

Well, it’s for carpet cleaners and Yellow Pages. When you’re interested inbuying a bigger ad or putting a big ad in another neighboring directory, getanother telephone number and use it in the new ad, so you can get a realsense of what’s happening.

So you can track?

Yeah, track each ad with a different phone number. That’s what TV directresponse does. Is that something that you recommend to your folks, Joe?

TV, you mean?

Just in general, to be able to track responses by specific source, which isvery important.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Knowing your numbers is everything. And what, Marty,you just said, if someone has 2 or 3 different ads and they all have the samephone number when someone calls in, even if they’re tracking saying, “Iheard about you from the Yellow Pages,” what’s to say they’re going toknow which Yellow Pages?

So no, it’s absolutely fantastic advice. And that would apply to anyreplication of media. If you’re running 2 different newspaper ads, 2different phone numbers. You’ve got to know your numbers. I read in one





Trackeach adwith adifferentphonenumber.

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of your articles that was written about you, that the future of marketing isdatabase. And you’ve got to know what list these are corning from.

You’ve got to know what ads are attracting what people. And that’swhat has allowed you to mail less letters but be more profitable, becauseyou have such a deep understanding of who’s responding to what it is thatyou’re promoting. So absolutely.

It took me a long time to understand databases, or database marketing.Actually, it’s interesting. Dick Benson wrote a wonderful book on directmarketing. A few years later, he redid it and he asked me to write theforeword to it. So I had to read the book again, which was no pain.

After I finished getting started on the foreword, I realized hedidn’t say anything in there about database marketing. It turns out he nevercould redo the book because the world had changed and had become avery important part of the new direct mail world.

What I would like to do, because we’ve only got a few minutes left...

I thought we were going to stay on through the weekend.

You know, let me get a whole slew of CD’s, Marty. We could actually dothat. You know, it would be worth it to me. I’d get a heck of an educationand we’d getting a lot of...

And every hour, we’d get the clocks going off, too.

Absolutely. It would almost be like a marathon here. We could be in theGuinness Book of World Records. There’s a lot of things I’d love to askyou, but we’ve only got a limited amount of time. I’ve been to one of yourfour season dinners that you do. What is the purpose of those things? Ithink they’re really cool.

And although it’s not a huge thing, I think it’s worth mentioning.You do these dinners at Four Seasons with experts and stuff. What’s that





You!ve got toknowwhat adsareattractingwhat people.

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Marty:

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Joe:

all about?

It started very selfishly. I was at several dinners with intelligent peoplearound the table, which is much different than how I grew up. And I hadsuch a good time at those dinners, that people stopped inviting me. So Ifigured as an entrepreneur, I’ll try it. So I set up my own. I had trouble withmy first one. I sent out some invitations and everyone did notimmediately respond positively. So I sat back, planning the second oneand said, “What do I do now?”

I realized I was in the direct mail business, so I sent out twice asmany invitations and got a full table very easily. Then we had a few leftover, so I set up another dinner. It’s the best way to spend an evening. I hadan apartment in New York to do this entertaining, and I found that thedinners were more fun than going to the movies and the ballet or shows.Just listening to people who know what they’re talking about is fabulous.

I agree.

You know, just a quickie, on the format that it’s amazing. I think there’s somuch in the dinners, that go into the planning of them, that Marty’s veryprecise about how the table gets set up and who sits with who. We geteverybody’s bio in advance and we want to put people who would eitherhave a lot in common or we think they can have a lot in common once theystart talking to each other based on something in their backgrounds.

In addition, the way the format works is that after we introduceeverybody who’s at the dinner, we spend time, everybody talks to theirneighbors, because we’ve already set the table up in a way that the peopleare conversing about various topics. And then after the main course, Martysets it up so there’s one conversation for the whole table, and each person,you tune into each person and their expertise.

As Benson says, these are people that know everything about a lot.So as Marty said, you can’t get more out of an evening than when you’relistening to the experts talking about what they’re expert in. Everybody





Just listeningto peoplewho knowwhatthey!retalkingabout isfabulous.

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Brian:

likes to talk about what their passion is. And the fact that we have the newsletters that we have and we have

the experts network that we have, it’s just gotten better and better as theyears go on because the network gets bigger, the experts get better. Theexperience of everybody is increasing, of course, because time marcheson.

We always say, at the end of each dinner, “This was the bestdinner ever.” We hate to tell you, but the next one’s going to be the bestdinner ever, and the next one’s going to be the best dinner ever. So it’s aphenomenal experience. I’ve had the privilege of co-hosting them withMarty now for the last few years. It’s just been, again, an amazingexperience to have that contact with these amazing, amazing people. Andit is better than going to the movies or going to the show, or going to afootball game or anything like that.

Yeah. I think that just the whole fact that getting together with groups ofvery smart people and talking about very interesting things, that’s reallywhat life should be all about. So many people squander their time. I thinkyou’re not a huge, big sports fan, Marty, but I think so much television andthings that people spend their time with is a giant waste of time. And Ithink you’re just a company and an individual and a person that hasreally learned how to find the essence of things and really leverage that.

I don’t want Marty to be angry with me on this one, but I’ve been pushingreally hard that his autobiography is a book that needs to be written. Justthe case histories - and we haven’t even touched on that many today,because you’re not going to do that in an hour or 2-hour interview.

But the lessons in life – I guess you’re going to ask somethingabout the art collection – the lessons in life that he’s learned, I said all hehas to do is have the right editor and all he has to do is keep talking, andthe book is going to write itself. As far as just the issues of integrity inbusiness and the issues of so many people are writing about ethics thesedays and writing about some of the things that people talk the talk but they





...that!sreallywhat lifeshould beall about.

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Joe:

Brian:

don’t walk the walk, and Marty’s been doing that for 30 years. I’ve beenwith him for 22 of them. 35 years and I’ve been with him for 22 of them.And I can tell you, for a fact, that this is a book that’s going to get written.

I thank you for the inspiration to at least let me put that out thereand let your listeners know that we’re going to get even more of this onpaper.

You know what? Before we even give Marty a chance to respond, I wouldsecond everything that you just said and I would certainly encourage that.I’ve spent a lot of time. I’ve known Marty now for several years, donedinners with him, had lunch with him before. He’s given me a tour of theplace. I’ve sent him some bizarre artwork and stuff in the past. And he’salso sent me some really cool things. He’s sent me a Piranha and all kindsof neat stuff.

Last week, I read all of these articles; when you were DirectMarketer of the Year, when you’ve been in Direct Magazine, the write-upin Forbes, numerous articles. I watched the TV story that was done on youand all of this stuff, and it’s fascinating. I had lunch last week, I spent 6hours with Vic Conant over at Nightingale-Conant, which is an aside. Heactually said he did business with you in the list business.

Oh, yeah. I know Vic. I don’t know if Marty’s met Vic. Marty knew EarlNightingale, I think.

Did you know Earl, Marty?

No.

Oh, you never met him, Marty? Okay. You know Vic Conant, Jr.

Yes, exactly.

We used to do a lot of business with Nightingale-Conant. Yes, I know Vic.





Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Marty:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

I had just gotten done reading all of these articles on Marty, and I broughtthe folder of all of these articles. And I gave them to Vic and I said, “Vic,have someone make copies of these articles for you. You’ve got to readthis stuff. This guy is fascinating, all of the things that he’s done.”

If you could see the articles that I have, they’re all highlighted. AndI’ve got just pages of notes. Not things just preparation for this interview,but just things that I’ve learned and insights that I’ve picked up. So Iwould highly encourage you, Marty, to do a biography of yourself or haveit done. I think it’s fascinating.

I have a title for the book, too, Joe.

What is it?

It’s called Mickey From Newark. And the reason why I say that is all ofMarty’s friends, he’s still very much in touch with those of his friends thatare still around from high school. He grew up in Newark, New Jersey, veryhumbly, was not wealthy. Grew up as a very, very hard worker in Newark,New Jersey. I would say all roads lead to Newark because everywhere wego it seems like we’re always meeting somebody that Marty went to highschool with in Newark.

And all of his old friends still call him Mickey. I’ve bought himsome Mickey Mouse shirts as a joke, but I could never call Marty“Mickey.” He’s always been Marty to me.

But there’s this side, the idea of Mickey from Newark. He’ll tellyou that he’s just this average guy that just put his priorities in the rightplace and was focused on a vision and worked really hard and got to wherehe was. But it is much bigger than that. But the fact that it started asMickey in Newark and the fact that he was a track star and he wasn’t thefastest guy but he was as good as anybody else on the track team, is sortof indicative of everything he’s done in his life since.

So I think I’ve got the title, I think I’ve just got to get the author,





37

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

and I’ve got to get Marty to say yes. And I really appreciate you, Joe,backing me up here. Because he’s been telling me that I’m wrong.

I’ll only say yes if he tells me where he got his fabulous toilet seat that hesent me.

The Spiderman?

The Spiderman.

I love the Spiderman toilet seat.

I got it at an art gallery called Art One, in Scottsdale, which is the neatestlittle art gallery because the money that this gentleman raises, the proceedsgo to help student artists and teenage artists and stuff. And the art isfantastic. The coolest thing, which is kind of interesting, when I went tothis place I was referred by a friend who’s a medical doctor that has thisbizarre art collection. I’m into some pretty weird art. And I go into thisplace and mention that this person referred me, my friend Juan. His nameis Juan Levy, he’s a doctor. And the guy said, “Anything that you see inthe gallery, if you like it, go ahead and take it home. And if you like it, payme for it. And if you don’t, just bring it back within a week.”

So I said, “Okay. So this is like trial art?” He’s like, “Yeah.” I go,“Do you do this with everyone?” He goes, “Yeah.” He goes, “80% of mybusiness is repeat clients.” So I walked out of there that day with about$1,200 worth of stuff. The guy didn’t even ask me for a license oranything. All he wanted was my phone number. And I’m like, “Do youhave people rip you off?” He’s like, “No, never had it happen.’ He goes,“It’s all on the honor system.”

I ended up buying the stuff from this guy. But the mere fact he’slike, “Go and hang it on your wall, put the sculptures on your floor, dowhatever you want. If it works, if it fits, keep it. If it doesn’t, bring itback.” And I thought that was one of the most awesome marketing





I love theSpidermantoilet seat...

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Marty:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

techniques for selling art.

I think that’s how Marty started Bottom Line Personal. One of hisconsultants, Dave Floren, said, “This thing is so good, just give it away.And as soon as it gets in their hands, they’re not going to be able to livewithout it.” So it’s the same concept. There’s a real marketing lesson here.

Hold it! Hold it! Hold it! I’d like to know if you tried out this toilet seat?

No. That toilet seat has never been tried. It’s one of a kind. Another onelike it does not exist.

I’m staring at it right now. It’s right behind Marty, on the wall, behind himon his desk.

You know what? Do me a favor, Brian, if you could. Because now thatwe’ve done this interview and this is actually going out to the world,people are going to be asking, “What on earth are you talking about?” Andthat really is one of a kind. It was a custom-made toilet seat with artworkfrom Spiderman that was put on the toilet seat, lacquered. It’s useable.

It’s beautiful. I’m looking at it.

Yeah, take a picture. And that was done before the movie came out andeverything. So I’ve got to imagine that’s a huge collector’s item now,which is very cool.

Right. Marty keeps a camera by his desk, so I’ll make sure. He’s got totake a picture of it and send it to you.

And I knew that that would totally fit Marty, too. Which is why, when Isaw it...





39

Brian:

Marty:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

It’s right behind him. It’s in a very prominent spot on the wall. Does thisart place still exist?

Yes. It’s called Art One, and it’s in Scottsdale, Arizona.

Now, when I come for a boot camp, you’re going to take me there.

Yes. The guy that owns it, his name is Craig Foote. He’s a very cool guyand it’s a really interesting place.

It’s on my list of places to visit when I come to a boot camp.

I will absolutely take you there. So Marty, what are your thoughts on doingthe book? Does this look like something that you’d be willing to haveBrian oversee and put together?

I don’t know. It’s a lot of work.

I don’t expect to do the work, because I’ve got enough to do. I keep myselfbusy and Marty keeps me busy. I think the book writes itself, frankly. Youneed the right person, someone who’s really expert in doing interviews. Ibet you could write it, Joe. Your interview techniques are so good. Butthat’s the kind of person that you need. Because then, I think the bookwrites itself. And it really becomes a book about lessons in life more thanit does about Marty’s life.

And I would be more than happy to do that. I would love to do that. Andalso, my listeners, I would imagine, would absolutely love to get all ofMarty’s insights and the things that you guys have learned.

I’ll keep working on him.





Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Marty:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Yeah, think about it, let it percolate. If it sounds like something, let meknow. And to all my listeners, if that is something that’s interesting to you,just shoot us an e-mail or a fax and let us know and I will use that asammunition to try to convince Marty.

You get an autographed picture of Marty’s toilet seat.

Perfect. Perfect. That’s great. Let’s talk about your art collection, Marty.It’s not just about art. You actually find meaning and messages in your art,and it all has a special meaning and purpose to you. Marty: There’s a greatlesson for everybody. Joe: Yeah, share that. What is the lesson?

Well, basically, I was out with Gene Schwartz and his wife, who arefabulous collectors. And they were in a big gallery, looking at frontline art.And I wondered over into the corner and I saw a funny, crumpled-upphotograph and it had 2 words on it. It said, “Order,” and underneath it, ithad “confusion.” And I got excited about that, because that’s what I dealwith, with my publications. I bring order out of confusion.

It just happens that the artwork was done by the Starn twins, andthey make orderly things confusing. Essentially, they take photographs,cut them up. My particular one was all crumpled up. I asked what the pricewas and they told me $500, and I had trouble believing that. I bought onepicture a few years ago for $100 and it was perfect, no bends, no cuts, nocrumples.

So I figured I had found the secret of life, and I just had to tellpeople about it. So I started a collection to show confusion and order. AsI looked for that theme, I discovered other themes like one of my earlythings was a very attractive woman with beautiful breasts, sitting on herhaunches, nursing her baby. But the baby wasn’t the baby, it was the fetus.And the woman with the beautiful breasts wasn’t a woman, she was ahermaphrodite. And if you look closely, you can see substantial malegenitals too.

So check your premise. That’s a very important line. That was a





So checkyourpremise.That!s averyimportantline...

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Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Marty:

key line, of course, of Atlas Shrugged.

Absolutely.

And I went along and found other things, which taught lessons.

In fact, Marty was given an award by the Direct Marketing Association ofWashington, a visionary award some years ago, and actually created, atthat point, a slide presentation. Which, I guess, Marty, we should get intoPowerPoint. We’ve not really pulled it out of the archives.

But basically, it was selected pieces from his art collection and,each one, what the lesson in life was. And then I think you were going todo a book on that, but I don’t think we ever got around to that. But I thinkthat can be incorporated into the autobiography as well.

Yes, of course. You could have all the pictures, all the different artwork.

Sure.

That’s a great idea. Seriously, you’ve got one heck of a story here. It couldbe a visual story, it could incorporate all kinds of things. What about thetrapeze picture? What’s the meaning behind that?

That’s a great photo by a great photographer. And it shows these artistsswinging high up in the air, and teaches the lesson of teamwork. When oneof the Flying Wolenda’s goes off, the other will have to catch them. Andthat’s so in life. I sit down with somebody and we start work on a project,and I have to trust them not to let me down. That’s a great, powerfullesson.

I guess a spin-off of that one is the Fred Astaire, Ginger Rogers.You have a couple things like that, a similar theme.

I’m going to actually segue that into a question that I kind of wanted to





...I have to trustthem notto let medown.

42

Joe:

Marty:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

ask. One of your books that you recommend, that I’ve read in your articlesand stuff, is How To Win Friends And Influence People, by Dale Carnegie.There’s another book that I actually saw recently, which is called How ToLose Friends And Alienate People, which I thought was interesting.

You said that Carnegie taught you the art of not arguing to get yourway. What have you learned about communicating with people? Becauseyou’re a phenomenal communicator. That’s what your publications do,that’s what your marketing does. And, of course, that had to be crucial inyou building a team of people to support you in your mission and what itis that you’re doing. Brian, you’ve been working with Marty for howmany years now?

22 years.

22 years. There’s obviously massive amounts of communication. So whatis the art of not arguing to get your way?

One of them is to be a black belt, and I’m a black belt.

He doesn’t scare me with that black belt thing.

I used to, though.

No, you never did. It’s bigger than your black belt.

Is that how you met Ken Glickman, by the way?

Yes.

Ken is an awesome guy. I think Ken’s actual title at Boardroom isConsumer Editor at Large?

Correct.





..."the Artof NotArguingto GetYourWay.#

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Brian:

Joe:

Marty:

Brian:

Marty:

Brian:

Joe:

Marty:

Joe:

Marty:

At large. I guess that means he’s never around?

He’s not a full-time employee, but he has done a lot of appearances for usand kind of represents us in some media and things like that. He also didthe I-Power seminars years ago, so I guess that’s how you met him.

Yeah. And Ken, I will have to say, just given the chance to say, Ken is oneof the most phenomenal people that you’d ever meet. I love the guy. He’sa fantastic guy, and has always done such a wonderful job of representingyour company. The guy’s awesome. He’s spoken at some of my bootcamps.

But anyway, going back to the question of not arguing to get yourway, explain that if you could.

It’s very simple. I realized that every time I was in an argument, I lost. IfI won an argument, you felt bad. And that didn’t portend well for thefuture. If I lost an argument, I felt bad. So if I won, I felt bad and if I lost,I felt bad.

Going back to the book idea, Brian, you should have every one of hisfriends write a chapter on him.

Yeah, right.

We’re really kind of cornering him into this deal here.

It’s going to happen. I just have to make sure I line it up and make it easyfor him to order.

Of course.

There is no no. I’m going to make it easy for him to say yes.





So if I won, I feltbad...and if I lost, I felt bad.

44

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Marty:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Yeah, exactly.

You’re helping me, so I appreciate that, Joe.

Good. Marty, a couple more questions and then we’ll call it a wrap. Whatlessons, life lessons, did you learn through karate, which I believe youbegan at age 45 and you became a black belt at age 57. What did youlearn?

I learned that you can do anything that you want, that the teacher tells youto do. I learned I could do pushups. Pushups are a major toughener. So wedid it on hardwood floor, using knuckles, not the palms. If you can dopushups on a hardwood floor, that’s incredible. It really hurts.

I think there’s a phrase you have for it, Marty, which is - not the pushups- that you can do anything you want to do if you’re willing to work hardand pay the price. And I think that’s part of what your dedication to karatewas.

I demonstrated it very simple.

This will be the last thing I’m going to ask you, and then we’ll wrap up.10 years ago, over 10 years ago, in 1994, you were voted Direct Marketerof the Year by Target Marketing magazine. Which, by the way, at the timeI think Denny Hatch was the editor.

Yes, you’re absolutely correct.

I’ve interviewed Denny, by the way, and he thinks very, very highly ofMarty. His name came up quite a bit in my interview with Denny. And youwere quoted as saying, “I want to help people live in an increasinglyhostile environment. If no one else changes the world, we’d better try. And





If no one elsechangesthe world,we!d better try.

45

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

Marty:

Brian:

Marty:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

I’m in a decent position to do that.” Not only, at the time, were you in a decent position to do that, I

think certainly through your publications and the millions of consumersthat you’ve reached and have then helped and guided and educatedthrough your books and through your publications, you’ve done that in ahuge way and you’ve influenced millions of people.

What are your famous words of wisdom, last words of wisdom youwould give to any entrepreneurs out there listening to this interview onwhat they can do to just become better, bettering their best and just runbetter businesses, be better people, and get the most out of what life cangive you?

Well, as an entrepreneur, the best thing you can do is get your people intoan I-Power system. Or, as a homebody, you could sit with the family andpromise them a quarter or a dollar for every good idea they come up withthat makes their family function better. That’s great. The power is great.

The other thing is you could run your own I-Power meeting withyourself. Sit down and say, “I’m going to come up with 20 ideas toimprove my business, improve my life.” Some of it’s small. Go to sleepearlier, get up earlier, keep...

There the clocks go again. Brian, if you want to say anything whileMarty’s clocks go and probably ring his eardrums...

No, no. I know it’s almost time.

Well, what I want to say to the listeners is please give me your input onthis interview. Any further stuff that you’d like to learn or hear aboutMarty, please let me know. I don’t know if you’d ever be open to anotherinterview in the future, Marty. But certainly, if you are, then I willcertainly extend that offer. And I would be happy to help in any way, shapeor form with putting together any form of book or any documentation ofyour wisdom and your insights.





"I!mgoing tocome upwith 20ideas toimprovemy business,andimprovemy life.#

46

Marty:

Joe:

Brian:

Joe:

With you guys’ permission, if you don’t mind if I share some of thearticles and stuff with my listeners, I’m thinking I may put them up onPDF on the GeniusNetwork.com website, so people can actually readabout Marty, if that’s okay. And you can let me know which things I canput up or which ones I can’t. And I’ll make that available to anyonelistening to this, so you can get a further understanding and knowledge ofMarty and what he’s done. Certainly, there’s so much more than just whatwe’ve talked about here. But certainly, I appreciate you both taking thetime to do this interview with me and to share some of your knowledgeand some of your wisdom.

And I’ll give you one more opportunity, either one of you, to sayany final things, and then I’ll let you go.

Marty should have the final word.

I hope your listeners come up with lots of questions, so we can do thisagain.

Thank you. Thank you.

And Marty, you are promising Joe a picture of the Spiderman toilet seat?

Yes.

Okay.

Awesome. That’s great.

We’ll do a PDF of that for your listeners, as well.

That would be awesome. Brian, if you could give out the contactinformation for all of our listeners, so if they would like to subscribe to anyof your newsletters, get any of your books, or just go to the website and





47

Brian:

Marty:

Joe:

Brian:

Marty:

Brian:

Joe:

Brian:

Marty:

subscribe to the free e-mails. If you can give out any contact informationfor the listeners, that would be great.

Yeah. Going to our web site, www.Boardroom.com, orwww.BottomLineSecrets.com, as the train is going around. On that website, you can subscribe to anything. You can buy any of our books. Iencourage everybody, all of your listeners, to sign up for our 2 freee-letters. One is Daily Health News, the other one Bottom Line Secrets. Soat least they’ll be in contact with us.

And I think it’s not too dangerous to give out my e-mail address,because if there are any specific things that I can make something happen,for anybody who’s a friend of Joe’s is a friend of ours. [email protected]. I’ll try to take care of any requests that I getfrom anybody who’s a friend of Joe Polish’s.

Awesome. Thank you. And Marty, again, thank you very much for takingtime to do this. Thank you, Brian. And to all my listeners, please give meyour feedback on this and anything regarding Boardroom, Marty, Brian,that you’d like me to follow-up with, questions. I certainly will do it.

So thanks a lot, guys. Have an absolutely wonderful day.





Eat yourcompetitionalive!

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Brian:

Joe:





1

Books are a great source of learning...always make sure you get something usefulthat you can use in your business or everyday life with the books you read...even ifyou don’t read it cover to cover.

Always question everything...curiosity pays off.

Don’t delegate, coordinate. Put people together to work through things as a teameffort. Coordinate the outcome or project to be completed.

Management by Agenda: give projects to people but meet with them regularly tofollow up on and ask more questions as it moves along.

A big secret in sales is that planning pays...so plan your day, your calls, scheduleeverything.

Good copy (writing) is the oxygen that makes your sales letters work and makesyour campaigns work.

The control is your enemy! Always work to beat your control (the best packageyou’ve got, the current winner). Whatever your best package is, you can probablybeat it.

Steal Smart: Look at what’s working, look at what’s out there. Adapt it for yourbusiness.

The future of marketing is the database - knowing your target base and having anunderstanding of who’s responding to what it is you’re promoting.

Bring order out of confusion. Make your marketing promotions simple for thebuyer.

GENIUS NETWORKTM HOT TIPS SHEET


!Question Everything and Be Curious" -- MMaarrttyy EEddeellssttoonn

For more Genius NetworkTM Interviews by Joe Polish with experts in the fields of business and personal success - visit www.GeniusNetwork.com.

BBIIGG IIDDEEAASS//IINNSSIIGGHHTTSS I gained from this interview:

IIDDEEAA How can I leverage this idea to my benefit?

AACCTTIIOONNSS I want to take based on these ideas:

AACCTTIIOONN//GGOOAALL Steps I can take right away to move on this?

Deadline: ______________

Deadline: ______________

Deadline: ______________

Recommended Resources:

Lateral Thinking by Edward De Bono

Bottom Line Personal Newsletter - www.Boardroom.com

Boardroom, Inc. 281 Tresser Blvd. 8th floor, Stamford, CT 06901-3246Phone: (203) 973-5900 Fax: (203) 967-3086

Other Recommendeded GN Interviews with Joe Polish:

Ken Glickman, (of Boardroom, Inc.) “I-Power: the Best Management System Ever!”

Ken Glickman (Marketing Consultant) On Time Management (Part One & Two)

Documents

Genius Network - Brian Kurtz and Marty Edelston Interviewed by Joe Polish