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COPYRIGHT

PUBLIC HEARING

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION

THERESA HAMIL TON ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER

PUBLIC HEARING

OPERATION CAVILL

Reference: Operation El2/l 1 9 1

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AT SYDNEY

ON MONDAY 1 5 JULY 201 3

AT 10.05AM

Any person who publishes any part of this transcript in any way and to any person contrary to a Commission direction against publication commits an offence against section 1 12(2) of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act 1 988.

This transcript has been prepared in accordance with conventions used in the Supreme Court.

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ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Please be seated. This is a public inquiry being conducted by the Independent Commission Against Corruption. The general scope and purpose of the inquiry will shortly be outlined in an address by Counsel Assisting. After that address we will have a short adjournment and I will then take appearances and make any other orders which are necessary at that time. Mr Jason Downing has been Counsel Assisting and I would now ask him to deliver his opening address.

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner.

Commissioner, this public inquiry is being conducted for the purpose of an investigation into certain allegations concerning the Mayor of the City of

Ryde, Councillor Ivan Petch and to a more limited degree other Councillors and associates of Councillor Petch. More specifically it's alleged that in the period 2012/2013, first Councillor Petch arranged for an indirect approach to be made to the then General Manager John Neish in April 2012 by local real estate agent Mr Tony Abboud for the purpose of conveying an offer to Mr Neish to the effect that his employment as General Manager would be secure beyond the upcoming September 2012 Council elections if Mr Neish

20 would delay taking steps to enter into a contract between the City of Ryde Council and Lend Lease for the redevelopment of the Ryde Civic Precinct. It will be further alleged that Mr Abboud made the approach to Mr Neish at the behest of John Goubran, an associate of Councillor Petch.

Secondly, that after Mr Neish rejected the offer described above, Councillor Petch took steps to have his employment terminated or to pressure him to resign. Those steps included introducing a motion to Council in July 2012 seeking that Mr Neish's contract be terminated and they further included disclosing certain confidential Council information concerning alleged

3 0 misconduct b y Mr Neish to certain persons outside Council in January and February 2013 in an attempt to force Mr Neish to resign.

Third, Councillor Petch released or caused to be released other confidential Council documents and information including in an attempt to undermine the position of Mr Dominic Johnson, the Group Manager, Planning and Environment at the City ofRyde Council.

Fourthly, that Councillor Petch attempted to influence a decision required to be made by the current acting General Manager of the City ofRyde

40 Council, Ms Danielle Dickson, in May 2013 in relation to the payment of legal fees in Supreme Court proceedings in which the Council was involved. It's specifically alleged that Councillor Petch attempted to persuade Ms Dickson to instruct the Council solicitors to pay the defendant's legal costs in the Supreme Court proceedings in circumstances where Mr Petch himself was one of the defendants. It is further alleged that Councillor Petch suggested to Ms Dickson that he and others who were involved in the process of recruiting a permanent General Manager, that is to replace Mr Neish, would look favourably on her application if she so acted.

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Fifth, that Councillor Petch failed to disclose a number of personal and :financial relationships with local businesses and property developers when considering matters before Council, leading to potential and actual conflicts of interest. It will further be alleged that Councillor Petch improperly interfered with the conduct of a Planning and Environment Committee meeting in June, 2013 and in so doing failed to disclose his relationship with the owner of a residential property in respect of which the Committee was considering a building certificate application.

And sixthly, that an employee of The Weekly Times newspaper, Mr Richard Henricus, made an attempt, made a - sorry, made a corrupt offer to a City of

Ryde Councillor, Mr Bill Pickering in an attempt to persuade Councillor Pickering to assist the passage of certain Development Applications currently before the Council which had been lodged by the owner of The Weekly Times newspaper, Mr John Booth.

In addition to the above, the Commission will also investigate an issue in relation to the placement of certain political advertisements in The Weekly

20 Times newspaper under the name saveryde.com, for Councillors Petch, Tagg, Salvestro-Martin, Li, Perram and Butterworth in the lead up to the September 2012 Council elections and shortly after them. There were also some advertisements for individual Councillors that appeared in The Weekly Times in the lead up to the elections.

More specifically the Commission will investigate who placed the advertisements, who if anyone paid for those advertisements and whether any of the Councillors mentioned in the advertisements received a benefit in breach of the Election Funding Expenditure and Disclosure Act 1981 or

30 otherwise failed to comply with the Council's Code of Conduct provisions regarding conflicts of interest and political donations.

To properly understand the nature of the allegations as I have outlined them above, which are being investigated by the Commission, it's useful to provide some background to the City ofRyde, Councillor Petch and the other persons who will be giving evidence before the Commission.

In terms of factual background the first matter I want to deal with is the legal framework and some general matters. As a Council created pursuant

40 to the Local Government Act 1993, the City ofRyde Council, the Councillors and the Council staff are all subject to the provisions of the Act.

Relevant to this inquiry, chapter 14 of the Act sets out certain requirements in terms of honestly and disclosure of interests with part 1 of chapter 14 covering conduct, including the conduct of Councillors and Council staff and part 2 of chapter 14 covering duties of disclosure on the part of Councillors and Council staff.

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Pursuant to section 440 of the Local Government Act and clause 193 of the Local Government General Regulation 2005, a model Code of Conduct applicable to all New South Wales Councils was created. At all relevant times in 2012 and 2013 the City ofRyde Council adopted a Code of Conduct which incorporated the provisions of the model code as well as some additional provisions.

In view of the conduct which will be examined during this inquiry it's helpful to have regard to certain of the provisions of the Local Government

10 Act and the Local Government General Regulation as well as the City of Ryde Council Code of Conduct. Pursuant to section 440(t) of the Local Government Act, a Councillor may engage in misconduct where he or she fails to comply with an applicable requirement of a Code of Conduct under section 440.

Pursuant to sections 442, 444 and 449 of the Local Government Act, Councillors must disclose pecuniary interests and the Local Government General Regulation 2005 provides guidance as to the type of pecuniary interests that need to be disclosed and the form of disclosure which is

20 required.

Section 451 of the Local Government Act requires that a Councillor who has a pecuniary interest in any matter with the Council which is concerned -I'm sorry, in any matter with which the Council is concerned and is present at a meeting of the Council or a committee at which the matter is being considered must disclose the nature of the interest to the meeting as soon as practical and must not take part in any consideration, discussion or vote on the matter.

30 The City ofRyde Council Code of Conduct sets out in some detail the conduct required of Councillors and Council staff. Relevant to this inquiry the Code of Conduct specifies that failure by a Councillor to comply with the standards of conduct set out in the Code constitutes misbehaviour and may constitute a substantial breach of the purposes of section 9 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act.

The Code of Conduct also covers the following subject matters. First, conflict of interest, second, personal benefits, third, relationships between Councillors and Council staff, fourth, access to information and Council

40 resources including duties of confidentiality and fifth, complaint handling procedures and sanctions.

In September 2011 Council elections were held in the City of Ryde which resulted in 12 Councillors being elected. They were Councillor Etmekdjian who was the Mayor, Councillor Campbell, Councillor Maggio, Councillor O'Donnell, Councillor Pickering, Councillor Yedelian, Councillor Petch, Councillor Salvestro-Martin, Councillor Li, Councillor Tagg and Councillor Butterworth.

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For some time prior to the elections in September 2011 the City ofRyde Council had considered and investigated a possible redevelopment of the

Ryde Civic Precinct area. The Ryde Civic Precinct area is located on the comer of Devlin and Parkes Street, Ryde.

As a result of the September 2011 elections the City ofRyde Council was effectively split six/six over a particular proposal for the Ryde City Precinct redevelopment. In general terms those favour of the redevelopment were

10 the Mayor Councillor Etmekdjian and Councillors Campbell, Maggio, O'Donnell, Pickering and Yedelian. Those against the particular proposal for the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment were Councillors Petch, Salvestro-Martin, Li, Tagg, Butterworth and Perram.

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At an extraordinary meeting held on 18 October 2011 the City ofRyde Council resolved in relation to the proposed Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment to progress to the stage of undertaking an Expression Of Interest and tendering selection process and to delegate to the then General Manager, John Neish, its powers in respect of that process.

The Council had looked at a variety of options in respect to the Civic Precinct including to reactive maintenance work only, undertaking refurbishment and undertaking a larger scale redevelopment. The effect of the resolution passed on 18 October 2011 was to take steps towards the larger scale redevelopment via an Expression Of Interest and a tendering process.

In November 2011 the City of Ryde Council called for Expression Of Interest to redevelopment of the Ryde Civic Precinct. The intention was to

30 identify a development partner that could construct buildings and develop Council facilities on Council land in return to be given the right to construct residential units which it could then sell.

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After the City of Ryde Council advertised for Expressions Of Interest in November 2011, nine companies lodged submissions by the required closing date of 23 December, 2011. The submissions were then subject to review by an appointed request for tender evaluation panel and the panel recommended a shortlist of four tenderers which was approved by the General Manager.

On 10 February 2011 Bilbergia Pty Limited, Leighton Properties Pty Limited, Lend Lease Development Pty Limited and Mirvac Projects Pty Limited were sent an invitation to participate in a request for tender process. All of those four companies accepted the invitation. Request for tender evaluation panel then determined the evaluation criteria for the purposes of assessing tenders.

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10 April, 2012 was the closing date for the submission of tenders. By that date the Council had received letters from Mirvac and Leighton Properties indicating that they no longer wished to tender, consequently two tenders were lodged one by Lend Lease and one by Bilbergia in joint venture with Frasers Property Australia Pty Limited.

On 20 April, 2012 Lend Lease and the Bilbergia/Frasers Property joint bid presented their proposals to the request for tender evaluation panel as overseen by the Council's probity advisors.

On 3 May, 2012 the request for tender evaluation panel met and received advice from Clayton Utz lawyers.

On 7 and 8 May, 2012 Lend Lease and Frasers Property/Bilbergia attended meetings with the request for tender evaluation panel at which each tenderer was made aware of key issues Council wished to have resolved. The tenders were given, the tenderers, sorry, were then given until 16 May, 2012 to prepare their responses on those keys issues.

20 On 9 May, 2012 the request for tender evaluation panel met and scored the tenders resolving to reject the bid made by Bilbergia/Frasers Property.

On 20 May 2012, sorry, 21May,2012 the request for tender evaluation panel met again and finalised the marking of the Lend Lease tender. Lend Lease had in fact put in two alternative proposals. The request for tender evaluation panel resolved that neither alternative should be accepted as they were non-compliant. Following on from that decision by the evaluation panel at a meeting on 12 June, 2012 the City ofRyde Council resolved to enter into negotiations with Lend Lease with a view to entering into a

30 project delivery agreement and the Council delegated to the then General Manager, John Neish, the function of negotiating with Lend Lease with a view to concluding a project delivery agreement preferably by August 2012.

After being delegated the above powers Mr Neish undertook negotiations with Lend Lease with a view to ultimately entering into a contract pursuant to which the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment would occur.

It's worth pausing to note at this juncture that the proposed Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment was the subject of some significant controversy

40 amongst Ryde residents and City ofRyde Councillors. Perhaps unsurprisingly given that the proposed redevelopment involved substantial works being undertaken and a private developer being given the right to develop Council land, the proposal was the subject of strong feelings and some considerable emotion.

As noted above, on a number of occasions when matters came before Council in relation to the proposed Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment, there was a deadlocked vote with six in favour and six against. On those

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occasions the then Mayor, Councillor Etmekdjian, used his casting vote in order to pass resolutions aimed at progressing the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment. There were also a number of occasions upon which the Council was unable to make a decision due to Councillors who were opposed to the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment not attending meetings or leaving meetings, thus preventing a quorum from being achieved.

To this point none of the factual matters identified in respect of the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment is particularly surprising and none would of

10 itself warrant the attention of the Independent Commission Against Corruption. It's emphasised that the Councillors were perfectly entitled to take positions, even strong positions, for or against the proposed Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment and the citizens ofRyde were just as entitled to judge them at the ballot box according to those positions. The Commission is not concerned with those issues which quintessentially involve local politics. This public inquiry will not be a forum for re-agitating arguments for or against the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment.

However, evidence will be presented to the Commission to suggest that 20 Councillor Petch and others in the block opposed to the proposed Ryde

Civic Precinct redevelopment took a dim view of Mr Neish' s involvement and seemingly concluded that he was in some way acting improperly. It appears that Councillor Petch and others in his block had similar concerns in respect of other Council staff including Dominic Johnson, the Group Manager, Environment and Planning. The Commission will hear considerable evidence in respect of Mr Petch's conduct as regards Mr Neish and to some degree Mr Johnson which will raise issues as to the nature of Mr Petch's motivation and the propriety of his conduct.

30 In relation to the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment, no contract was entered into between the City of Ryde Council and Lend Lease prior to 8 September, 2012 which was the date of the Council election. At those elections a new Council was elected consisting of Councillor Pendleton, Councillor Pickering, Councillor Salvestro-Martin, Councillor Yedelian, Councillor Chung, Councillor Maggio, Councillor Petch, who was elected Mayor, Councillor Simon, Councillor Etmekdjian, Councillor Laxale and Councillor Li who was elected Deputy Mayor, and Councillor Perram. In view of the complexion of the new Council a resolution was passed on 25 September, 2012 effectively terminating the Ryde Civic Precinct

40 redevelopment project.

Again, I emphasise that the Commission is not concerned with the decision by the City ofRyde Council not to proceed with the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment. That was a matter proper for the Councillors to consider and there's no suggestion of any impropriety or corruption in the resolution to in effect cut off any further negotiations with Lend Lease and proceed no further.

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What will be considered in more detail, however, is the conduct of Councillor Petch in particular, the conduct of certain other Councillors and the conduct of certain of Councillor Petch' s associates in relation to the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment and more generally. The salient aspects of that conduct will be outlined below.

The first topic I wish to deal with specifically is the approach to Mr Neish. Evidence will be given before the Commission that on 13 April, 2012 Mr Tony Abboud, a real estate agent from the Ryde area, met with

10 Mr Neish and amongst other things conveyed to him that his employment as General Manager would be secure beyond the September 2012 Council elections if Mr Neish took certain steps to delay the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment. In particular, Mr Abboud suggested that a, that a form of community advisory committee could be created which would then review the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment project and report back to Council after the September 2012 elections. It will be remembered that by 13 April, 2012 the closing date for submissions for tenders had passed and Council had received tenders on behalf of Lend Lease and Bilbergia, Frasers Property. I anticipate there will be some dispute as to precisely what

20 Mr Abboud said to Mr Neish and who it was that approached Mr Abboud and asked him to speak to Mr Neish. I anticipate that Mr Neish' s evidence will be that he was told by Mr Abboud that he was making the approach on the request of Mr John Goubran, a local property developer. I further expect that Mr Neish will say that the impression he gained based on what Mr Abboud said to him about his communications with Mr Goubran was that the proposals ultimately being conveyed on behalf of Councillor Petch, Councillor Salvestro-Martin and Councillor Li.

Mr Neish' s evidence I anticipate will be that he conveyed to Mr Abboud 30 that the offer that was being put was improper and may amount to a form of

corruption.

I expect that Mr Goubran will give some evidence to the effect that the idea of creating a type of community consultative committee in respect of the rise of increasing redevelopment was his idea and that he came up with the idea with a view of providing some public consultation and reducing the public backlash against the Councillors who were in favour of the redevelopment. I further expect Mr Goubran to give evidence that he discussed the proposal with the then Mayor, Councillor Etmekdjian, who

40 indicated his support for the proposal and encouraged Mr Goubran to put it to the block of Councillors who were against the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment led by Councillor Petch, possibly through Mr Tony Abboud as an intermediary.

I expect that Councillor Etmekdjian will dispute that version of events and deny that in early to mid 2012 he supported the proposed creation of a Community Consultative Committee for conveying that proposal that Councillor Petch or indeed any of the Councillors or Council staff.

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A significant issue before the Commission will be who was ultimately behind the proposal or offer which was put to Mr Neish by Mr Abboud. I expect that Councillor Petch will deny that he had anything to do with the creation of the offer or it being conveyed to Mr Neish. Issues will arise as to what motivations Mr Goubran would have had to involve himself in relation to the proposed Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment through coming up with the offer and having it conveyed to Mr Neish.

10 Perhaps coincidentally on 8 May, 2012 Councillor Petch and Councillor Salvestro-Martin moved a motion before Council seeking to establish a

Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment committee, sorry, Community Advisory Committee which would reconsider the merits of the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment. This proposal - sorry, the proposal that was, was that whilst the Community Advisory Committee was carrying out its functions the tender process and the process of engagement with developers would be placed on hold.

I anticipate that the similarity between the offer conveyed by Mr Abboud to 20 Mr Neish on 13 April, 2012 and the terms of the motion put up by

Councillors Petch and Salvestro-Martin on 8 May, 2012 raise some issues as to whether in fact Councillor Petch and/or Councillor Salvestro-Martin may have been behind the 13 April, 2012 approach to Mr Neish.

Commissioner, the next issue I wish to deal with is the attempted removal of Mr Neish and the release of confidential information in respect of Mr Neish. As I indicated earlier in the opening evidence will be called from Mr Neish to the effect that he rejected Mr Abboud's approach on 13 April, 2012 in no uncertain terms. Further, I expect that there will be evidence that Mr Neish

30 also informed the then Mayor, Councillor Etmekdjian of the approach by Mr Abboud and of his rejection of it and that he subsequently told Mr Abboud of the report he had made to the Mayor and of his intention to report the matter to the Independent Commission Against Corruption.

An issue will then arise as to whether the rebuff of the approach of Mr Abboud was conveyed to any other persons including Councillor Petch. As I've indicated above Councillor Petch and Councillor Salvestro-Martin put a motion before Council on 8 May, 2012 seeking to establish a type of Community Consultative Committee in terms which bore more than a

40 passing resemblance to the proposal put to Mr Neish on 13 April, 2012 by Mr Abboud. That motion did not ultimately pass though it took a rather convoluted course after a series of amended motions and notices of rescission were lodged with the City ofRyde Councillors voting according to their established blocks.

On 9 July, 2012 Councillor Petch handed to Mr Neish's personal assistant a Notice of Resolution requesting an extraordinary Council meeting for the purpose of terminating Mr Neish's contract. The extraordinary Council

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meeting was held on 23 July, 2012 and in a closed session the Council passed the motion that MrNeish's contract, which was dated 14 October, 2009 be terminated with immediate effect, six votes to five, with Councillor Yedelian being absent at that time.

Immediately after the motion was passed the notice of rescission was signed by Councillors, Campbell, O'Donnell and Maggio and it was lodged and due to be considered at a meeting on 14 August, 2012. There'll be an issue as to whether was the appropriate manner in which to consider the

10 termination of Mr Neish's contract, having regard to the provisions of the July 2011 guidelines for the appointment and oversight of general managers issued by the Director General of the Division of Local Government, Department of Premier of Cabinet pursuant to section 23(a) of the Local Government Act.

On 10 August, 2012 the Council commenced proceedings in the New South Wales Supreme Court to restrain Councillor Petch and others from seeking to terminate Mr Neish's contract.

20 The Independent Commission Against Corruption commenced similar proceedings and on 28 September, 2012 consent orders were made on the basis of an undertaking by the Council that it would not take any steps to terminate Mr Neish's employment until ICAC gave notice of having completed its investigations - and the particular reference to the judgement is Ryde City Council v Petch, ICAC v Ryde City Council 2012 NSW Supreme Court 1246.

In view of the history set out above in relation to Mr Abboud's approach to Mr Neish on 13 April, 2012 and the subsequent unsuccessful motion

30 brought by Councillor Petch and Councillor Salvestro-Martin seeking to establish a community consultative committee and to defer to the Ryde Civic Precinct re-development issues will arise as to Councillor Petch' s motivations and seeking that Mr Neish's employment be terminated and their propriety.

Subsequently in late January 2013 and IT employee of the City ofRyde Council received electronic notification that a Council laptop issued to Mr

Neish had been infected with a virus. On calling in the laptop and inspecting it the employee determined that the laptop had been infected with

40 a virus as a result of pornographic sites having been accessed. As accessing pornographic sites was contrary to the Council's internet code of practice policy at least where access occurred via the Council network the employee lodged an official complaint against Mr Neish of accessing, downloading and saving pornographic material on a Council issued laptop. That complaint was lodged with the Council's human resources unit on 5 February, 2013 and copied to Councillor Petch.

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As by that time Councillor Petch was the Mayor it was appropriate that any complaint in respect of Mr Neish came to him under the Council's Code of Conduct and in particular its complaint handling procedure.

Consistent with the Council's Code of Conduct and quite appropriately Councillor Petch informed relevant Council staff that the matter was to remain confidential.

I pause to emphasise that this public inquiry will not be a vehicle for 10 examining the precise nature of the pornographic material found on the

Council laptop issued to Mr Neish. There's no suggestion that what Mr Neish did was illegal or amounted to corrupt conduct. There will be some brief evidence to the effect that Council had an internet code of practice policy though it's not clear that it actually applied to the circumstances leading the IT employee's official complaint against Mr Neish in early 2013, that is where a Council issued laptop was being used at home and it would seem, was not connected to the Council network.

What will be the subject of the attention of the public inquiry is what action 20 was taken by Councillor Petch and others he communicated with in respect

to the subject matter of the complaint made by the IT employee.

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A significant issue will arise as to whether in fact Councillor Petch himself acted appropriately in respect of what was clearly confidential information.

I expect that there will be some evidence to suggest that Councillor Petch in fact deliberately leaked or caused to be leaked information in respect of the complaint which had been made against Mr Neish and did so because of personal animosity towards him.

Under the Council's Code of Conduct there was an established complaints handling procedure which it will be suggested the Mayor should have followed but did not. That is despite one of the senior staff members of the Council, Mr Roy Newsome, the Group Manager Corporate Services, specifically informing Councillor Petch of the complaints handling procedure to be followed.

The Council had adopted a policy for the interface and day to day oversight of the General Manager by the Mayor which contained guidelines for

40 managing complaints in respect of the General Manager and it will be suggested that Councillor Petch should have followed them but did not. In addition the leaking of information in respect of the subject matter of the complaint made against Mr Neish may amount to a breach of section 664 of the Local Government Act as his handling of - and his handling of the issue of Mr Neish's performance as General Manager and whether there was a basis to terminate his contract would seem to be contrary to the July 2011 guidelines for the appointment and oversight of General Managers issued by

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the Director General of the Division of Local Government Department of Premier and Cabinet.

What Councillor Petch in fact did was engage a solicitor, Mr Bryan Belling of K & L Gates, to have a disc containing the images captured from Mr Neish's laptop computer forensically examined.

Mr Neish subsequently conveyed to Councillor Petch his preparedness to resign and I expect he will give evidence that this was because of a

10 significant concern that the information in relation to the complaint against him lodged by the employee would be leaked in order to damage to Mr Neish's reputation. I expect evidence will be given to the Commission to suggest that Mr Neish' s concern in that regard was well founded.

Mr Neish subsequently resigned from Council on 8 February 2013 and Mr, after Mr Belling, the solicitor engaged by Councillor Petch, negotiated a deed of separation and release on the Council's behalf.

Evidence before the Commission will indicate that despite Mr Neish 20 resigning at that time Councillor Petch nonetheless had Mr Belling continue

to pursue the forensic analysis of the disc of images through until April 2013. I expect that an issue will arise as to why that forensic analysis continued beyond the date of Mr Neish's resignation and Councillor Petch's motivations in instructing Mr Belling in that regard.

Commissioner, the next issue I wish to deal with is the attempted removal of Dominic Johnson and the release of confidential information in respect of him. On 20 June, 2013 a senior planner with the New South Wales Department - sorry, 20 June, 2012 a senior planner with the New South

30 Wales Department of Planning and Infrastructure, Ms Danijela Karac­Cooke, sent an email to a planner at City ofRyde Council, Ms Sue Wotton in respect of a request for information about zoning and use of land within the Ryde Local Government area. The land concerned was the subject of a Development Application by Mr John Goubran, an associate of Councillor Petch.

The information and opinion expressed by Ms Karac-Cooke in relation to the zoning and use of land was subsequently incorporated in a report to Council by Mr Dominic Johnson, Group Manager, Environment and

40 Planning. In short, Mr Johnson recommended the rejection of the Development Application brought by Mr Goubran.

On an unknown date but prior to 26 November, 2012 Councillor Petch approached his executive assistant, Ms Linda Smith, and asked her to locate the email from the Department of Planning used as the basis for Mr Johnson's report. Ms Smith subsequently retrieved the email and forwarded it to Councillor Petch. Evidence before the Commission will show that on 26 November, 2012 Councillor Petch forwarded the email to a

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publicist and PR consultant, Mr Anthony Stavrinos. It's not clear precisely what happened with the email after Mr Stavrinos received it but I expect evidence before the Commission will indicate that it found its way to Mr Goubran or lawyers acting on his behalf and on behalf of other local landowners. There will be a significant issue before the Commission as to why Councillor Petch asked Ms Smith to locate what was plainly a confidential internal Council communication and why he then forwarded it on to Mr Stavrinos. I expect there will be evidence to suggest that Councillor Petch acted in this way with a view to assisting his associate

10 Mr Goubran and damaging the reputation of Mr Johnson.

Beyond the above examples there will I expect be evidence to suggest that on a number of other occasions Councillor Petch has released what was plainly confidential Council information to friends and associates, some of whom were local property developers.

Commissioner, the next issue I wish to deal with is Councillor Petch's attempt to influence a decision by the Acting General Manager as to the payment of legal fees. As I've indicated above, Danielle Dickson was

20 appointed Acting General Manager of the City ofRyde Council in February 2013 following the resignation of Mr Neish. As part of a review of the organisational structure of the Council, the Council began a recruitment process with a view to appointing a new permanent General Manager. That process began in mid April 2013 with a workshop and the draft timeframe prepared indicating an intention to actually have a new permanent General Manager commence work in mid to late September 2013.

As at May 2013 the Supreme Court proceedings that I referred to earlier remained before the court. As at May 2013 some negotiations were entered

30 into between the parties as to a possible resolution of those proceedings. The Council delegated to Ms Danielle Dickson the function of managing the Supreme Court proceedings at an extraordinary Council meeting held on 9 April, 2013. I anticipate that evidence will be given by Ms Dickson to the effect on 2 May, 2013, after she sent a memorandum to Councillors in respect of the progress of the proceedings, Councillor Petch spoke to her privately and suggested to her that she should agree to a position on behalf of the Council that the Council meet the costs of the defendants, which included Mr Petch himself. I further anticipate that Ms Dickson will say that Councillor Petch suggested to her that it would be in her interests to do

40 so because, in her interests to do so as he asked that - sorry, I withdraw that. That it would be in her interests to do as he asked because when it came to the Council's decision whether to appoint her as permanent General Manager he would be relying on a number of other Councillors who were also defendants in the proceedings. I expect that on the part of the Mayor, Councillor Petch, there is likely to be some dispute as to the words that were spoken and their intent. Nonetheless, a real issue will arise as to whether the communications initiated by Councillor Petch were appropriate given his status both as the Mayor of the City ofRyde Council and a defendant in

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the proceedings and his personal financial interest in the terms on which the proceedings were resolved, including as to costs.

If Ms Dickson's evidence is accepted it may lead to a fmding that what Councillor Petch was in fact doing was offering a none too subtle inducement that if Ms Dickson acted as he suggested in relation to the costs of the Supreme Court proceedings he and other Councillors with whom he was aligned would ensure that she was ultimately appointed the Council's permanent General Manager.

Viewed another way, Councillor Petch's communication could be interpreted as a thinly veiled threat that if Ms Dickson did not act as Councillor Petch was suggesting, he and the Councillors with whom he was aligned would involve themselves in the recruitment process so as to prevent her appointment as permanent General Manager.

Commissioner, the next issue I wish to deal with is Councillor Petch's failure to disclose personal and financial relationships.

20 Both documents and oral evidence will be put before the Commission to establish that in October 2012 Councillor Petch agreed to make a loan in the sum of $250,000 to Mr John Booth, the owner, editor and publisher of the local Ryde Gladesville newspaper The Weekly Times. It would appear that by that time Mr Booth and The Weekly Times were experiencing some cash:flow difficulties.

Ultimately Mr Petch had his solicitor, Mr Stefano Laface, draw up loan and mortgage documents and the loan proceeds were paid out to Mr Booth and The Weekly Times in two tranches in mid to late October 2012. Mr Booth

30 provided security for the loan in the form of a property in Kirribilli that he owned and a property in Mosman that his sister a Ms Gilkes owned. The term of the loan was six months with interest to be charged at 10 per cent per annum.

As indicated above the Council's Code of Conduct requires Councillors to disclose all potential conflicts of interest and pecuniary and non pecuniary interests. Further, section 451 of the Local Government Act prohibits a Councillor who has a pecuniary interest in any matter with which the Councillor is concerned, from being present at or even in the sight of any

40 meeting at which the matter is being considered or discussed by the Council.

On 26 March, 2013 at a City of Ryde Council meeting, the Council had to decide on a motion to split the Council's advertising evenly between the current contract holder, the Northern Times, and Mr Booth's newspaper, The Weekly Times. I expect there will be evidence to show that Councillor Petch spoke in favour of the motion which would have had the effect of providing financial benefit to Mr Booth without giving any indication of his financial arrangements. That is Councillor Petch made no mention at all of

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the loan and the mortgage entered into and the fact that Mr Booth owed him $250,000. In addition to the above event I expect evidence will be given from a number of Councillors who were present at a planning and environment committee meeting held on 4 June, 2013. One of the items to be considered by the committee on that occasion was a building certificate application for unauthorised building works to an existing dwelling at 29 Vimiera Road, Eastwood. That property is a private residence owned by a company which Mr Norm Cerreto was a director, of which Mr Norm Cerreto was a director

10 and further Mr Cerreto lives at that address.

I anticipate evidence will be presented to the Commission to indicate that whilst Councillor Petch was not a member of the planning and environment committee, he attended the meeting, sat on the committee table, spoke privately to the acting committee chairperson, Councillor Denise Pendleton and then attended a private discussion that the committee held in respect of the building certificate application.

I expect that the evidence presented to the Commission will indicate that 20 whereas the report provided the Council staff recommended that the

unapproved structure should be demolished, the decision reached by the committee after the private session was not to pursue demolition of the unapproved structure. I expect that the evidence put before the Commission will indicate that there was an existing and close personal relationship between Councillor Petch and Mr Cerreto as at 2012 and 2013.

In the circumstances I expect there will be a very real issue as to what if any disclosure Councillor Petch made of his relationship with Mr Cerreto and what motivated his decision to involve himself in the planning and

30 environment committee meeting on 4 June 2013. There will further be an issue as to what influence Councillor Petch had on the committee's decision.

40

I expect there may be other instances of Mr Petch failing to disclose pecuniary and non pecuniary interests in the course of the, his activities as a Councillor.

Commissioner, the next issue I wish to deal with is the offer to Councillor Pickering.

I expect there will be evidence given by Councillor Pickering about an approached he received by Mr Richard Henricus on 2 May, 2013. The evidence will be to the effect that Mr Henricus contacted Mr, Councillor Pickering on 1 May, 2013 and requested a meeting the following day.

I expect Councillor Pickering will say that when they met on 2 May, 2013 Mr Henricus indicated that he had commenced working for The Weekly Times. As at May 2013, Mr John Booth, the owner of The Weekly Times,

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had a Development Application lodged at Council for a significant redevelopment of premises located at 826 Victoria Road, Ryde.

I expect Councillor Pickering's evidence to be to the effect that at the meeting on 2 May, 2013 Mr Henricus indicated that Mr Booth was getting ready to step away from The Weekly Times with the intention that Mr Enriquez would become General Manager.

Mr Henricus further indicated that he was aware of the bad coverage 10 Councillor Pickering had received from The Weekly Times in the past and

he suggested that this could change after he became General Manager. Mr Henricus further suggested that if the DA currently before Council could be sorted out it would allow Mr Booth to basically hand the keys of the office to Mr Henricus. I expect Councillor Pickering's evidence will be that Mr Henricus asked his assistance to get the DA to go through. There was another person present at this meeting, Mr Nathaniel Smith, who I expect will give similar evidence to that of Councillor Pickering.

Commissioner, there will be an issue as to whether the approach Mr 20 Henricus made was on his own behalf, on behalf of someone else or on

behalf of Mr Booth. In either case it would appear, it would appear provided that Councillor Pickering's evidence is accepted that the approach by Mr Henricus would amount to a bribe to the effect that if Councillor Pickering could assist in getting the DA approved, Mr Henricus would ensure that he received more favourable coverage in The Weekly Times in the future.

Commissioner, there are certain matters I wish to deal with in conclusion. The Commission will ultimately have to make factual findings on all of the

30 issues raised above. As I have suggested earlier in the opening, there are likely to be fairly significant conflicts between the evidence presented to the Commission, particularly between the evidence of Councillor Petch and the evidence of certain Council employees and other Councillors.

Ultimately, the Commission will need to consider whether Commissioner -whether Councillor Petch acted in contravention of the Council's Code of Conduct, the policy for the interface and day to day oversight of the General Manager by the Mayor, the guidelines for the appointment and oversight of General Managers and indeed the Local Government Act and/or the

40 Election Funding Expenditure and Disclosure Act through the behaviour described above.

The Commission will also need to make findings in relation to the conduct of certain other Councillors from the City of Ryde Council, particularly those who were aligned with Councillor Petch prior to the September 2012 elections in their opposition to the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment. Further findings will need to be made in respect of the conduct of certain associates of Mr - of Councillor Petch, including Norm Cerreto and Mr

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John Goubran and Mr John Booth. Finally, the Commission will need to make factual findings in relation to the conduct of Mr Richard Henricus.

Subject of course to the factual fmdings the Commission ultimately makes, the Commission will have to consider whether Councillor Petch engaged in corrupt conduct on multiple occasions and in multiple respects, noting the effect of sections 7 to 9 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act and in particular the statement as to the general nature of corrupt conduct contained in sections 8(i) and 8(ii) and the further requirements of

10 section 9 of the Act.

20

30

At this stage it's less clear as to whether other Councillors may have also engaged in corrupt conduct, but I anticipate the Commission will need to consider the conduct of Mr John Goubran, Mr Anthony Stavrinos and Mr Richard Henricus. It's possible that the Commission may also need to consider corrupt conduct findings against Mr Norm Cerreto, although this will depend to a significant degree on the evidence that the Commission hears in relation to his dealings with Mr Petch and his awareness of the motivations for Mr Petch' s conduct.

Finally, at the conclusion of the public inquiry, the Commission will be required to prepare a report pursuant to section 7 4 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act which will include statements as to any of its findings, opinions and recommendations.

Thank you, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you for that, Mr Downing. We will now have a short adjournment.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [10:49am]

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you, please be seated. Yes, I will now take - yes, I will now take applications for leave to appear.

MR HYDE: May it please the Commissioner, Jonathan Hyde, and I seek leave to appear for Councillor Ivan Petch on instructions from Moray and

40 Agnew Solicitors, in particular Shayne Thompson and Victoria Chambers.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you, you are given leave to appear for Councillor Petch.

MR HYDE: Thank you, Commissioner.

MR BENDER: May it please the Commission, my name is Bender, I seek leave to appear for Councillor Salvestro-Martin.

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10

20

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Bender you are given leave to appear for Councillor Salvestro-Martin.

MR HARRIS: Deputy Commissioner, my name is Harris, I seek your authorisation to represent Mr Neish.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Harris, you are given leave to appear for Mr Neish.

MR HARRIS: Thank you.

MR SEETON: Good morning, Commissioner, my name is Adam Seeton and I represent the City ofRyde Council in its capacity as a body politic of the State, I don't represent any individual Councillor or staff member and I seek that the Council be authorised to appear for the proceedings.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, I'm not sure how much of a role the Council needs to take in the proceedings but I will give you leave.

MR SEETON: Yes, it's only if there are matters relating to their policies, procedures, systems that come up during the course of these proceedings, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, thank you.

MR OATES: May it please the Commissioner, my name is Oates, I seek the Commission's authority to represent Mr Nathaniel Smith.

30 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, you're given leave to appear for Mr Smith.

MR OATES: If the Commission pleases.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: He's a witness I take it, is he, Mr Downing? Yes.

MR DOWNING: Yes, Commissioner.

40 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Are there any other applications?

MR NEIL QC: Commissioner, my name is Maurice Neil, I seek leave - - -

MR SIMPSON: Commissioner - oh, Maurie, you go first.

MR NEIL QC: I seek leave to appear with my learned friend Mr A vni Djemal instructed by Mr Craig Murray for Mr Norman Cerreto.

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ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Neil, you and your junior are

given leave to appear.

MR NEIL QC: Thank you, Commissioner.

MR SIMPSON: Commissioner, I seek leave to appear for Mr John Booth who's a witness, my name is Simpson.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, you are given leave to appear for 1 0 Mr Booth.

20

MR ANDRONOS: Commissioner, my name is Andronos. I seek leave to appear for Mr Terry Perram.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: For Mr Perram?

MR ANDRONOS: Mr Perram.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, you're given leave to appear.

MR DAWSON: Commissioner, my name is Dawson, D-a-w-s-o-n. I appear with your leave for Mr Pickering who is a witness. Can I indicate while I'm on my feet that I've mentioned this to Mr Downing, Mr Pickering is presently overseas according to the information we have but is expected back in time to give evidence on Thursday or Friday which I understand meets the Commission's timetable.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you for that.

30 MR DAWSON: Thank you.

MR MAHONY: John Mahony. I'm a witness someway down the list, I seek leave to be excused until later in the week.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes, Mr Mahony, that's fine. You'll be notified when you're actually required to appear.

MR MAHONY: Thank you, Commissioner.

40 MR McLURE: Commissioner, my name is McLure. I seek leave to appear for Mr Victor Tagg.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr McLure, you're given leave.

MR LLOYD: Commissioner, my name is Lloyd. I seek leave to appear for Councillors Pendleton and Etmekdjian and also Bruce Mccann and Roy Newsome and while I'm on my feet could I indicate that Councillor Etmekdjian is overseas and that fact has been raised with the Commission

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and as I understand it there's no difficulty with Councillor Etmekdjian giving his evidence when he returns from overseas.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Thank you, thanks for that.

MR STEWART: Yes, good morning, Commissioner. Stewart, solicitor. I seek leave to appear for Mr Henricus.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Stewart, you're given leave to 1 0 appear for Mr Henricus.

MR CHALMERS: Yes, good morning, Commissioner, my name is Chalmers. I seek leave to appear for Mr Tony Abboud.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Chalmers, you are given leave.

MR CHALMERS: Thank you, Commissioner.

MR TAYLOR: Commissioner, Taylor, solicitor. I seek your leave to 20 appear on behalf of Mr Michael Butterworth.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Taylor, you're given leave.

MR TAYLOR: Thank you.

MR STANTON: Yes. Commissioner, my name is Stanton, initials SJ. I seek leave to appear for Mr Goubran instructed by Barraket Stanton, Commissioner.

30 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Stanton, you are given leave to appear for Mr Goubran.

MR HOLMES: Commissioner, my name is Holmes, H-o-1-m-e-s. I seek leave appear for Mr Stefano Laface. I also ask if he could be excused from attending until later in the week.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Witnesses will be notified of the day upon which they're actually required to attend.

40 MR HOLMES: Thank you, Commissioner.

MR GRIFFIN: Commissioner, my name is Patrick Griffin, I appear with my learned friend Ms Case. I seek leave to appear for the Acting Mayor, Justin Li.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Griffin, you're given leave to appear.

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1 0

MR SMITII: Commissioner, Smith is my name, initial M. I seek leave to appear for Mr Charles Parisi.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Mr Smith, you are given leave to appear for Mr Parisi.

MR SMITII: Thank you, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: If there are no other - oh, yes.

MR KRITHARAS: Commissioner, my name is Bill Kritharas, K-r-i-t-h-a-r­a-s and I seek leave to appear for Mr Anthony Stavrinos.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, you're given leave to appear, Mr Kritharas. Yes, if there are no other applications for leave and there are no other matters that need to be raised at this time could you call the first witness, Mr Downing.

MR DOWNING: Commissioner, just before I do, there's been a volume of 20 documents which I understand have been circulated to all of the interested

parties comprising mainly Council policy documents and Council minutes, could I tender those at this point.

30

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. That, that volume of documents will be Exhibit 1 .

#EXHIBIT 1 - VOLUME 1 - BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS

MR DOWNING: And, Commissioner, for the benefit of the parties each of the documents that will be tendered should have a numbering on them, a numbering system which will be consistent through the copies provided to everyone so when I refer to page numbers there will be page numbers in the top right comer of each of the documents.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you for that.

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner. The first witness is Mr John 40 Neish.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr Neish, if you just want to go - - -

MR HARRIS: Commissioner, if I may could I just indicate Mr Neish will make an oath and could I foreshadow he seeks the section 3 8 declaration.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: And have you explained the effect of the section 38 declaration to him?

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MR HARRIS: I have, I have, yes.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

Pursuant to section 38 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act, I declare that all answers given by this witness and all docwnents and things produced by him during the course of his evidence at this compulsory examination are to be regarded as having been given or produced on

1 0 objection and there is no need for the witness to make objection in respect of any particular answer given or document or thing produced.

PURSUANT TO SECTION 38 OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION ACT, I DECLARE THAT ALL ANSWERS GIVEN BY Tms WITNESS AND ALL DOCUMENTS AND THINGS PRODUCED BY HIM DURING TIIE COURSE OF ms EVIDENCE AT TIDS COMPULSORY EXAMINATION ARE TO BE REGARDED AS HAVING BEEN

20 GIVEN OR PRODUCED ON OBJECTION AND THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE WITNESS TO MAKE OBJECTION IN RESPECT OF ANY PARTICULAR ANSWER GIVEN OR DOCUMENT OR THING PRODUCED.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Could Mr Neish be sworn, please.

MR HARRIS: He'll take an oath.

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<EDWARD JOHN NEISH, sworn [11.06am]

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, Mr Downing.

MR DOWNING: Thank you.

Mr Neish, if you could state your full name for the Commission?---Y es, my 1 0 full name is Edward John Neish.

20

And your date ofbirth?---7 March, 1953.

And your address?---............................. .

And are you currently employed?---Yes.

And in what capacity and for whom?---1 work as consultant both in for my own company and for another company called ............................... .

Commissioner, if it's convenient at this time there are a series of documents that I expect I'll be referring to in the course of Mr Neish's evidence rather than doing it one at a time. I seek to tender now those documents, some of which are contained already in Exhibit 1 but these are additional documents that I expect I'll be referring to.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR DOWNING: And again copies can be made available to the parties 30 who are interested in Mr Neish's evidence.

Mr Neish, in the course of your evidence hopefully when I refer to documents they will appear on the screen in front of you, so if you just have a look out for those?---Sure.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Well this bundle of documents will be marked Exhibit 2.

40 #EXHIBIT 2 - BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner.

In your evidence just before you indicated that you work as a consultant for your own company and for, is it .................................. ?---Yes, that's correct.

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And what's the nature of the work that you're doing?-I'm consulting with Local Government and advising on change management and performance management et cetera.

And you were the General Manager at Ryde Council for a period from January 2010 until February 2013?---That's correct.

And could I ask you to have a look at a contact document and this appears at page 25 or at the beginning at page 25 of Exhibit 2. If you scan down that.

1 0 Do you recognise that as your contract of employment?---Yes, I do.

Now will you go ahead to page 20, sorry 46, 46 of the document. And do you recognise that as signed by you and then Mayor Michael Butterworth? ---That's correct, yes.

On 1 4 October 2009. Up until - I withdraw that. Prior to your work at Ryde Council had you worked in Local Government for some years beforehand? ---Yes, I'd worked both in Australia and overseas beforehand.

20 And how many years did you work to Local Government?---For about, it would have been 1 8 to 20 years.

And was this your first appointment as a General Manager?---No, I was previously the General Manager at Parramatta City Council.

And for how long was that?---That was for almost five years.

Up until you ceased your employment at Ryde Council that is between January 2010 and February 2013 had you undergone some performance

30 reviews?---Yes. I'd undergone two performance reviews.

Could I ask you again looking at the documents on the screen in front of you to have a look at page 57 and 58. Do you recognise that as a document from November 201 1 in respect of one of the performance reviews?---Yes.

And it indicates that you received a pay rise as a result of the performance review?---That's correct.

Do you recall when the other performance review, you referred to there 40 being two, when did the other one occur?---It would have been

approximately a year before that, 201 1 .

So in late 2010?---Sorry, this was, sorry, can I see the full document? Ifl could just go to the top?

You commenced work in January 2010?---Yes.

This document in respect of the performance review is dated 21 November,

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2011 ?---Oh sorry, '11, yeah, sorry. There was one subsequent one approximately a year later. I think it was about November 2012.

So in terms of the Mayor's, the Mayors of Ryde at various times, in 2009 I've already (not transcribable) the contract of Mayor Butterworth - - -? ---Yes.

- - - who was the Mayor at that time. Do you recall when in 2010 and 2011 after the relevant Council elections Councillor Etmekdjian was the Mayor?

10 ---That's correct.

20

And in September 2012 Councillor Petch became the Mayor?---Y es.

And was your last performance review after the Council elections in 2012? --No it was prior to, I'm sorry.

And was the result of that that you received a pay rise, your pay stayed the same?---1 didn't receive a pay rise, I received an excellent grading for performance.

In the contract it sets out various aspects of your duties as the General Manager of Ryde Council. Could I ask you to have a look at page 31? And if we go down the page under Duties and Functions it sets out at 6.1.2 (not transcribable) of your duties?---Yes.

And two of the duties spelt out were implementing without undue delay the decisions of Council?---Y es.

And exercising such of the functions of Council as delegated by the Council 30 to you?---That's correct.

And were they parts of your job that you had to abide by on a day to day basis?---Most definitely. It is also ensconced in the Local Government Act that that's my role. Could I ask you in - in the period when Councillor Butterworth was the Mayor what was your relationship like with him?---Councillor Butterworth and I had a positive working relationship. That later changed after, I think it was after he left the Mayoralty.

40 After he left - - -?---Left the Mayoralty, yes.

Well Councillor Etmekdjian was elected Mayor in September 201 O?---Y es.

And was re-elected in September 2011. What was your working relationship like with him?---It was very constructive from my perspective and it was a very professional relationship as one would expect.

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Can I ask you what your working relationship with Councillor Petch was like after he was elected Mayor in September 2012 ?---The working relationship was really difficult. I think I once described it as dysfunctional. Councillor Petch refused to meet with me one on one and it was very difficult to, to do those things that a General Manager and a Mayor needs to do by working in close, in close partnership. I think these partnerships are

very important to how Councils operate and I found whilst Councillor Petch was cordial, we didn't have a constructive working relationship.

10 Can I ask you just for a moment about the, to turn your mind to the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment project?---Y es.

20

30

And can I ask you what was the status of that as at January 2010 when you began your employment?---The - in January 2010 it was made clear to me that one of the projects I needed to focus on was the delivery of the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment. I think it was in March 2010 , Council resolved to look at bringing on a development director and that was - - -

If I can just stop you there?---Yes.

I n terms of history what was the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?---Y es. I t consists ofland that Council owned in Top Ryde. It was part of a master plan for the, for the Top Ryde precinct.

Did that land include where the Council premises, that is the Council office is situated?---Yes, yes. The Council office is on a quantum ofland and it was always planned, and there have previously been plans to redevelop that precinct. I t was in the planning instruments to do so and it was Council's clear wish at the time that's what they wanted me to do.

And what was the status as at early 2010?---Early 2010 in March when that report first went to Council, I think from memory it was a vote of 11 to one to proceed with the next stage of the project.

The next stage being what?---The appointment of a Development Director to - and a team of consultants to pool together the project into a, into a meaningful product that we could then take to the marketplace.

And was, was in fact a Development Director then appointed?---Y es, that 40 was in December 2010 .

Was that Mitch Com?---That's correct.

And what was his - he was an outside consultant?---He was an outside consultant. We went through an Expression of I nterest, it was a tendering process. That tender went to the Council and the Council agreed with the recommendation to appoint Mr Corn. Mr Com then went about putting on

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a, a number of consultants needed to deliver a project of the complexity required.

Were lawyers involved in the process?---Yes, Clayton Utz was involved as was Patrick (not transcibable) from, sorry, the name of the company escapes me.

What role was that? Was that a probity advisor or assessor or - - -?---No, Patrick (not transcribable) was giving advice on getting the land tenure

10 sorted out and Clayton Utz was on the commercial legality of the, of the documents. The probity advice was being given by Marsden O'Connor, who was set up as a probity auditor early in the project to - - -

So is this the case that from the time the project was initiated, that is when Mitch Corn was appointed as project, is it Project - - -?---Director.

- - - Director, he had an involvement on behalf of his organisation, lawyers were appointed and probity assessors, auditors were appointed as well? --Yes. As well as urban designers, people that could give advice on

20 sustainability and we also had a land economist working on that team as well.

Can you tell me then through the period from January 2010 through until about October 2011 what was the progress of the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?---The progress was that we had done a lot of due diligence on the site, tried to work out the ownership of the site. The site had parcels that were owned by crown land and we were negotiating with them to acquire some of that to consolidate the site. We did an analysis of all of the risks on the site as far as was there ground conditions and those things so we

30 could de-risk the project as much as possible. And we also looked at the master design and the master planning for the site and the planning requirements and instruments for the site.

Up until the Council elections in September 2011 when Councillor Etmekdjian was re-elected as Mayor, what was the position within Council in terms of support for or against the project?---The support was generally still running at between ten votes and 11 votes for the project, depending on what was going up. And one or two against.

40 Now do you recall in October 2011 that you put before Council a particular recommendation?--Yes, on 1 8 October.

Can I ask you to have a look at a document, if we could go to in Exhibit 1 page 421 . Now you'll see that document are some minutes of a meeting held on 6 June, 2012 and the minutes indicate that there was a problem with a quorum not being present?---That's correct.

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Now, I'll come to that issue a bit later but if you then go ahead to page, sorry, 423 . Do you see that document is a report prepared by the development director for the Civic Precinct project?---Yes.

And at page 427 , which is the end of that report, it indicates the report's prepared by Mitch Com and approved by you?---That' s correct.

The next page 42 8 provides some history and it refers to an extraordinary Council meeting on 1 8 October, 2011 where a certain resolution was

10 passed?---Yes.

20

Can I ask you to explain - oh, first of all, read through that document from page 42 8 through until, through to 437 briefly or skim over it please and I'd ask you to then indicate to the Commission what it was the resolution involved at the time?--(No Audible Reply)

If you're able to answer it without reference to the document by all means do so?---Yes, at this time it was to delegate to me authority for taking the Civic Precinct project to the next phase.

The next phase being what?---It was the phase of calling for tenders. If I could just go up please.

Back up the page?---Yes. Yes, it outlined the procurement process for tendering and selecting of an appropriate development partner for a public/private partnership with the City ofRyde. It later turned out it wouldn't be a public, a private/ public partnership, that it would be a joint development and it was to, to put into place the criteria for the selection of that, that appropriate partner and, and the procurement process outlined how

30 that would be achieved.

40

So pursuant to this resolution was the intention, was the process that you were then under your delegated power to put in train the expression of interest phase?---Y es.

And request a tender phase?---Yes.

With a view that by August 2012 you would be recommending a preferred development partner?--That's correct.

Can I ask you then, and you may want to skim through the document further in terms of the timeframe, what then happened in terms of starting the expression of - sorry, I withdraw that. Can you recall what the vote was on this particular motion and bearing in mind we're now at 1 8 October, 2011 after the 2011 Council elections?---! can't recall specifically but I think if it was after the Mayoral election then it would have been six all with the Mayor using his casting vote.

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And did that occur on a number of occasions where votes involved the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?---It occurred continuously.

What, from after the September 2011 elections - - -?---Yes.

- - - through until the September 2012 elections?---Yes.

Now, in terms of timeframe then can you tell us what then happened in terms of starting the expression of interest and the request for tender

10 process?---The request for tender process, the expression of interest was initially called, I know it closed in December 2011. I think it was called about six weeks prior to that from memory.

20

Have a look at page 430 towards the bottom?---Yes.

So do those dates appear correct, that it was - - -?---Yes.

- - - the expressions of interest called on 22 November?---Yes, that's correct.

And the closing date is 23 December?---23 December. The next stage, those expressions of interest were e valuated by an independently created evaluation panel of industry experts and they came back and recommended, I think it was in February 2012, that four shortlisted proponents go to the next stage which was the formal request for tender.

And if you go to the next page 431. Just before I ask you about those particular events, when you put up your recommendation to Council back on 18 October, 2011 did you put forward a number of different options - - -?

30 ---Yes.

40

- - - in terms of what might happen?---Y es, there was three options.

What were the three?---The first option was to proceed with the project and have it completed prior to September 2013, sorry, September 2012.

When you say have it completed that is not the actual building is or was it? ---No, the, the procurement process and the appointment of a suitable contractor.

Right. And that's option 1 ?--That was option 1. Option 2 was to delay the project progressing until after September and option 3 was to not proceed any further with the project.

So those three options having been put up - - -?---Yes.

- - - the one that Council voted in favour of was the one to progress it - - -? ---That's correct.

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- - - with a view to having in effect a developer in place by - - -?---1 think it was August.

- - - August 2012 ?--' 12 .

Sorry. If you could then look at page 431 . You've told us that the initial expressions of interest were called for, a number of companies put in expressions of interest. Is it correct then that on 10 February, 2012 four

10 parties were invited and accepted an invitation to participate in the request for tender process?---That's correct.

20

Of those four did two subsequently withdraw?---Yes, at the, at the close of tender only two progressed. One was Bilbergia who had partnered with Frasers and the other was Lend Lease Development Pty Limited.

What then happened in terms of the request for tender process?--The negotiation panel then went in to detailed negotiations with both parties to -

Is that tender panel that had been appointed?---Yes. So that they could evaluate both of the, of the tender bids.

Who was on the panel?---There was a number of people. There was a Mike Collins from MCA, there was - - -

Who, who was he and what was his role?---He was giving advice on property project returns, doing the financial analysis. Obviously the development director Mitch Com who had oversight of the project,

30 Malcolm (not transcribable) who was a project manager for the project who was looking after a lot of the, the process issues. There was a QS on the tender panel.

Quantity surveyor?---Quantity surveyor.

So were all of these persons external appointments, they weren't Councillors who were on the - - -?---No, they were all external appointments and, and there was an urban designer as well.

40 Okay. All right. If you could then sorry, continue, page 433 if you have a look at that indicates that it was 10 April, 2012 that Mirvac and Leighton indicated that they didn't want to proceed further with the tender?---That's correct.

And then further down the page it indicates that a number of technical advisors were appointed to interrogate specialist areas of tenders?---Yes.

Was that part of assessing the tenders?---Y es.

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At page 434 the document, the report indicates that on 20 April of 2012 both tenderers presented their proposals to the panel ?--That's correct.

As overseen by the Council's probity advisor and other observers on behalf of Council ?---Yes.

Can you tell me then what happened after that, after the presentation?---!, I think the, the series of events was that by about May the tender panel had

I 0 come to the opinion after doing all the analysis, the tender evaluation panel had come to the opinion that Lend Lease was the best offer to the Council and they determined to proceed, I think they determined at that stage there was a report to Council to declare all tenders invalid and non-complying tenders and then to proceed in detailed negotiation with Lend Lease. Now Lend Lease had put up two options for the Council to consider and the negotiations took place with them to then finalise that offer.

20

Have a look at pages 435 and 436 and tell me if the summary there of the key dates and events is accurate to your recollection?---(No audible reply)

You'll see there's reference to meetings on 7 and 8 May - - -?---Yes.

- - - 2012?---Yes.

With the tenderers then been given until 16 May to prepare responses on key outstanding issues?---That's right.

Now evaluation panel meeting on 21 May and scoring of the tenders?---Yes.

30 And there was then an opinion provided by the evaluation panel after obtaining input from Clayton Utz?---Correct. And then that all came to me for a review and I think it was reported to then, reported to Council that time.

40

Having received the opinion from the panel and Clayton Utz, what was your view in terms of what was the appropriate step to take?---My view on the appropriate step to take was to proceed into the final discussions with Lend Lease. It offered a better urban design outcome for the site and a better financial return to the Council.

Have a look at page 437 and you'll see in the top few paragraphs it refers to the evaluation panel's conclusion. Does that accord with the recommendation that you got from the panel in terms of the best of means of proceeding?---Y es.

If I could ask you then to have a look at pages 502 through to 506 of Exhibit 1 which hopefully will be the minutes of a meeting on 12 June 2012?---Yes.

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I'm sorry, it starts at 498. Ifwe go back to 498. Do you see they're minutes of a meeting on the 12 June?---Yes.

If you go ahead to page 502 towards the bottom of the page there's a record there of a resolution in respect of a report that you provided and a report from the tender panel?---Yes.

Do you recall if that was the date on which you made a recommendation about what should then happen?--Yes, that was the subsequent meeting I

10 referred to earlier, yeah.

20

And what, that happened at that point, was there a further delegation to you or did something else happen?---I'm not sure of it exactly. Sorry, could I scroll down. Yeah. It was, it was asking Council to note that the tender evaluation panel has subject to the confirmation of Lend Lease board approval enter into negotiations with Lend Lease with a view to including a contract on the basis set out in the confidential report.

And if you go to page 503 .2, I think you 're there now?---Yes.

Sorry, and then over 504 and 505 it has the balance of the resolution. Was it at this point that you had a delegation then to try and negotiate further with Lend Lease to bring the agreement in line with what the Council expected?­--Yes. But I'd just like to, to add that I didn't need those negotiations the tender evaluation panel did those negotiations, reported to me. I had final oversight.

Now having regard to the resolutions Council has passed in this period from October 201 1 through to this period in June 2012 did you see it as part of

30 your job to progress the rights of a precinct project?---Y es, that was very clearly both the resolution of Council and it was also an objective in my performance objectives. And as I said earlier the objective or my performance objectives was to have that concluded by August 2012.

40

Commissioner, I'm not sure if you wanted to take a morning tea adjournment this morning or whether we continue given that we had a short adjournment before, it's convenient to me either way but - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I think we will have the adjournment.

MR DOWNING: Thank you.

MR HARRIS: Commissioner, before we rise on Mr Neish's behalf I seek a non publication in relation to his home address and the name of the business with whom he's employed as a consultant ............................. .

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I'm happy to suppress the home address. Is there any particular reason to suppress the name?

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10

MR HARRIS: No. Other than to ensure that he is not subjected to any un, un, inappropriate attention by way of his current employment.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well it is largely irrelevant to us where he's working so I will suppress his, the name of the current employer and home address.

MR HARRIS: Thank you, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: And we'll adjourn for 15 minutes, thank you.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.35am]

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Please be seated. Yes, Mr Downing.

20 MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner.

Now, Mr Neish, just before the break I asked you some questions about the period up until about May/June 2012. Is it the case that negotiations were continuing between, was it the panel and Lend Lease at that time with a view to trying to finalise an agreement?---Yes, that's correct.

And can I ask you just to turn your mind to a slightly different issue. Can you recall what Councillor Petch's view about the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment was in 2010 through to 2012 and whether it changed over

30 that time?---lnitially Councillor Petch was very pro the development. The Council prior to - - -

Did he speak to you about that?---Y es.

What did he indicate to you about that?--The, that the - the Council prior to my arrival had done some master planning for the site, putting in 100,000 square metres of development on the site. Councillor Petch on a couple of occasions had said how much money Council was going to, was going to receive from the development which I thought was actually over,

40 overblown.

What, overestimating what the return might be?---Overestimating what the return might be. And on another occasion Councillor Petch was of the view that Crown Developments who were developing across the road would be a good solution.

When you say across the road is that the Top Ryde Shopping Centre?---Yes, they were building apartments on top of that.

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Right?---Would be a good option for that site but he didn't go into any further detail about that.

Did, did his position as it was conveyed to you change at any time?--It did change after the Mayoral election.

In what, what year, about when?---In, in September 201 1.

10 And what was his position after that as conveyed to you?---Well, Councillor Petch had met with me on a, on a couple of occasions and had told me that the right thing to do would be to delay the process till after the election.

That is the following elections in 2012?---Yes.

Did he say why?---He didn't go into any detail but I just assumed it was to take some of the, it was to come to a political solution for the site rather than a :fiduciary solution for the site if you like.

20 At that time you had Council resolutions requiring that certain things were to happen with the project?---Correct.

And you also had Councillor Petch suggesting that it should be delayed until the September 2012 elections?---Yes.

Or after those elections?---Yes.

What was your approach as to what you would actually do in that situation? ---Well, I just simply said to him that whilst I understand his, his concerns

30 and his wishes you'd need to have a Council resolution to that effect. I mentioned that on a number of occasions. Councillor Petch later had sent me correspondence warning me that if I was to keep going ahead with the proposal I would, I would be in breach of the Local Government Act and be personally liable for any breaches or wrongdoing emanating from, from my actions.

40

You've told us about an occasion or occasions where Councillor Petch told you that he wanted the project delayed until after the September 2012 elections?---Y es.

You've said that your response was to indicate to him that for you to take that action you would need to have a Council resolution to that effect? ---Correct.

Did Councillor Petch say anything to you when you told him that you couldn't do what he was asking unless you had a Council resolution instructing you to so act?---Not really. I think the first time it was mentioned was prior to the, the Mayoral election and then it was mentioned

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several times afterwards. Councillor Petch came to see me and suggested that I slow things down a bit, take my foot off the accelerator and that would be the, the right thing to do and it wasn't long after that that the, the extraordinary meeting with Council was called by Councillor Petch to dismiss me as the General Manager.

But just coming a little bit, that, that's in, later in 2012?--Yes.

Just dealing with the period from about the Mayoral election in September 10 201 1 through till about June 2012, did you - I take it you generally attended

Council meetings?--Correct.

20

And Council committee meetings that involved the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?---Correct.

Did you notice any pattern of voting in terms of votes that related to the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?---There certainly was an absence of quorums on a large number of occasions, I think between up to 13 in the end and, and - - -

And on the occasions when there was no quorum what, what occurred? Did people leave during the meeting, not attend at all and who generally wasn't there?---It was a mixture of both. It was the group that was opposing the development.

Can I ask you, are you able to identify which Councillors it was that to your recollection was opposed to the development, that the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?---Y es. Councillors, obviously Councillor Petch, Councillor Perram, Councillor Salvestro-Martin. Back before the elections it was also

30 Councillor Butterworth at the time and Councillor Tagg and Councillor Li.

And those who were for the Civic Precinct redevelopment?---Yes, it was Councillor Etmekdjian, Councillor Y edelian, Councillor Pickering, Councillor Maggio, Councillor Campbell and Councillor O'Donnell.

And you've told us there were quite a number of occasions when there was no quorum so the Council couldn't transact its business?---That's correct.

Was that always in relation to matters pertaining to the Civic Precinct 40 redevelopment?---Yes, it was.

And who was it that wasn't present on those occasions?---The quorum, well, it varied but the quorum was withdrawn normally by those who were opposed to the project either not attending or leaving the Chambers when the matter came up.

During the process by which the Ryde Civic Precinct project was moving forward were there information sessions or training sessions provided or

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offered to Councillors?---Yes, there was, there were several. We had a number of workshops and we had a number of, we had a number of special committee meetings as well as Council meetings.

And who was holding those?--Generally it was put on by the Mayor on, on my request to inform Councillors of the details of what was, what was taking place. For example there were some very sensitive :financial arrangements that needed to be discussed, there was some sensitive issues to do with zoning and planning that needed to be discussed and these were best

10 done in workshop environments. We also had legal matters where the lawyers would attend to discuss how the commercial contract was constructed, et cetera.

And did the Councillors generally attend those meetings and sessions?---Not all Councillors attended these.

Were there, was there any pattern in terms of the Councillors for or against the project who were not attending?---That varied. Sometime Councillors who opposed did come but not all. The last meeting that we had was to

20 brief the new Council. Now, we wanted to brief them and we gave I think it was about eight or nine days' notice, it was just - - -

When you say the new Council you mean after the - - -?---This is after the September.

- - - September 2012 Mayoral election?---Y es. And, and at that, at that meeting only five Councillors attended and they were the Councillors that were supporting the project.

30 Now, as at early 2012 did you know Mr Tony Abboud?---Yes.

40

Who was he and what was your knowledge ofhim?---Tony was an active member of the local community, he was active in, in a number of ways. He was involved in the, the Macquarie Park and the Top Ryde Chamber of Commerce. He was a local real estate agent but he was also giving him time voluntarily on the City ofRyde strategic planning reference group or community reference group and I met him at a number of functions as well.

So you were well familiar with him by that time?---Y es.

And had you met him on a number of occasions through the different committees that you've described?---Yes.

As at early 2012 did you know a Mr John Goubran?---Y es, I had met Mr Goubran I think on two occasions prior to - - -

Who was he and what knowledge did you have ofhim?---Mr Goubran was a local developer. Mr Goubran had several planning matters before the

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Council. One related to the rezoning of some land and a building that he had acquired in Waterloo Road in Macquarie Park where he wanted additional height for the site. One related to a development he had at Eastwood where he had landholdings and wanted to redevelop it as residential apartments and another landholding he had in Gladesville, in a light industrial zone, he wanted the land uses changed there to bulky goods.

So as at early 2012 was he someone that you were familiar with as someone that owned land and was in the process of having Development Applications

10 before Council for consideration?---Yes.

20

30

Do you recall in about April 2012 receiving a call from Mr Abboud?---Yes. I think it was about 9 or so of April and we arranged to meet on 13 April.

When you say we arranged to meet, what did Mr Abboud say to you when he phoned you?---Mr Abboud said at the time that he had a, a - he, he had a proposition to put to me on behalf of, of others and he would tell me more when we meet and it was like that and it was at that time quite unspecific about what the discussion would be.

So you agreed to meet with him?---Yes.

And when and where did you meet with him?---We met at the Top Ryde Shopping Centre in a, in a coffee shop.

And can you recall on what date that was?---Y es, that was on 13 April, 2012.

Are you able to say what time of day?---1 think it was 11 o'clock.

Can you recall now what Mr Abboud said to you when he met with you on that day?---Yes.

And as best as you're able please try and put it in words that he used or words to the effect of what he used and the same way what you said back to him?---Yes. Look we spoke for about an hour or so. Mr Abboud started off being quite apologetic and said that what he had to say might sound a bit ludicrous and that he hadn't really - he didn't think it should be taken in the vein - I should say Mr Abboud was an avid supporter of the Civic, Ryde

40 Civic redevelopment site.

How were you aware of that?---He had come to speak to several Council meetings in support of the project.

So he'd actually addressed meetings?--Yes.

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Indicated his view?--Indicated his support for the project proceeding and he had taken an active role in working the Chamber of Commerce and local community groups to gamer their support.

If you go back then - - -?---Yes.

- - - doing your best to recall what it was he said. So he said that he said - --?---Yes.

10 - - - something to the effect that, "what I'm going to put to you might sound ludicrous" - - -?---Yes.

- - - words to that effect?--Yes. And I'm sorry to have to do this but I had a, a meeting and a phone call - several phone calls with Mr Goubran.

These are the words, just so that we're clear, this is not you, this is what you're saying Mr - - -?---Yes.

- - - Mr Abboud said to you?---Yes. He had, he had notes with him which 20 demonstrated, which he was referring to. And - - -

30

40

So - - -?---Yes.

- - - go on, so he told you what? So he said that - - -?---He said that Mr Goubran was talking on behalf of Councillor Petch and a number of other Councillors at the City of Ryde.

Die he, did he identify any of those Councillors?---Subsequently he did. He mentioned - - -

Do you mean subsequently that day or - - -?---Yeah, subsequently that day he, he mentioned Councillor Li, Councillor Salvestro-Martin, Councillor Petch. He also mentioned that Mr Goubran had, had spoken to him and said that people in Macquarie Street were - had asked him to approach me. He didn't specify who they were. He also mentioned that the proposition that was coming from Mr Goubran was that I was to prepare a report to Council seeking to create a committee of review. That I was to draft the terms of reference for that committee of review and the committee was to review the operations of the Civic precinct project.

Did he say anything about who might comprise the committee?---Yes. He mentioned Councillor Petch, Li, Salvestro-Martin. And he said that the Liberals would, according to Mr Goubran, that the Liberals would agree to the proposal and that Councillors Y edelian and Maggio may also be on this committee. That there would be the four or five community representatives and he named some individuals. I can recall some of those people. And that - - -

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Can you identify them now?---Yeah, Mr Phil Peak, Mr George Papallo - - -

Could you spell that for us, please if you're able to?---No, I couldn't. Again he was, he was a local identity in the local community, Mr Abboud himself and I think there was one other who I'd need to refer to my notes to answer that.

Okay?--The - he also suggested that on this committee would be two of my 10 group Directors, Ms Danielle Dickson and Mr Dominic Johnson, the

Planner. The committee of review was to until such time as the committee of review have findings, everything on the Civic precinct would stop and be delayed. That this report that I was to put to Council would go to Council and be supported by the Council and that if - he also wanted development assessments of the City ofRyde to be speeded up. He wasn't specific about which ones and he also suggested - - -

Sorry, Mr Abboud said he wanted or that Mr Goubran wanted?--- No, he was speaking on behalf of Mr Goubran. And he kept referring to his notes

20 to make sure he got this right. And he also suggested that if I was to do these things my employment would be secure after the elections. When Mr Abboud said that Mr Goubran had told him that after the election Councillor Petch would be the Mayor, Mr Goubran was going to deliver some support for him to ensure he was the Mayor and then after the elections the project would proceed.

Did Mr Abboud say anything about when this committee that he wanted you to suggest be created through your report would come back with its views or its opinion?---Y es. I think the intention was it would be after the September

30 - the Mayor, sorry, the Council elections in September.

Was that something that Mr Abboud said to you?---Yes. I then, sorry, I then informed Mr Abboud that it was improper for me to write such a report. That from my concern that the matter may be an offence under the ICAC Act and the Local Government Act. But really I was at the time a little bemused that I was being asked to do such things.

Well you say - - -?---And - - -

40 Sorry, you say that one of the things he indicated to you, that is Mr Abboud that according to Mr Goubran if you did these things then your job would be secure beyond the next Mayoral elections?---Yes.

Did you say anything or ask anything of Mr Abboud?---Yes. I asked Mr Abboud if that was a direct or an implied threat. So in other words would it be that if I didn't do these things I would be sacked. He said no, it wasn't direct it was more implied. I told Mr Abboud that - to go back to Mr Goubran and let him know that I, I wasn't prepared to implement any of

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these suggestions and that if that was going to be a resolution of Council then I would, but unless it was a resolution of Council I wasn't going to precipitate a Council report to suggest that the project be delayed.

Well what was being proposed to you was contrary to what the most recent Council resolutions had been in terms of how you were supposed to manage the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?---That's correct. It was also, sorry if I, may I add another comment? It was also suggesting that I lay off the development team and whilst no further action be taken during this period

10 and that we'd put the bids that at that stage had just closed, the, the two proposals we had before us sort of on ice.

So they were being evaluated by the request for tender panel at this point? ---Yes. They had just come in. I think they closed on about 6 April or 8 April. This was on the 13th.

So from what you've told us you didn't go along with Mr Abboud's proposal?---No.

20 Well what did you do following on from that meeting with Mr Abboud? ---Yes. I asked Tony if I could, sorry no, following that I met with the Mayor. I think it was, that meeting was on a Friday, I met with the Mayor in my one on one meetings on the Wednesday.

30

That's Mayor Etmekdjian?---Etmekdjian. And I'd spoken to him saying I had grave concerns about what was being proposed to me. I thought it was improper and I was going to report the matter to ICAC. The Mayor said that was the proper thing to do and we both discussed asking Mr Abboud at that stage for a, a statement so I had something in writing to report.

Is that something you wanted to do, get some notation or record from Mr Abboud of- - -?---Yes, yes.

- - - the dealings with Mr Goubran?---Yes. And I think I phoned Tony, the Thursday was the first time after that Wednesday meeting with the Mayor, asking him to do that. He said he would. And he was always very cooperative along the way. He was overseas and he was also sick for a period of time, so it was a couple of months before I actually got the statement from him. I also, sorry, I also raised the matter with my executive

40 team and took their counsel when we, when we met, I think it was that week or the following week.

Are you able to say who amongst the executive team you informed of the approach by Mr Abboud?---Ah, yes, it was Mr Newsome, Mr Johnson, Ms Dickson, Terry Dodds and I think it was at the time Beki Boulet.

So Terry Dodds' position was?--He was the, the Director of Engineering, basically infrastructure.

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And sorry, Beki, was it Boulet?---Boulet, who was the head of my office, yeah.

Now, on - were you present at a Council meeting on 8 May, 2012 when a particular proposal was put up in respect of the creation of a community consultative committee or something to that effect?--Yes, I was.

Could I ask you to have a look at pages 383 and following in Exhibit 1 . Do 10 you see the minutes there forthe meeting 8 May, 2012?---Yes.

Could I ask you to go in particular to page 3 85. Do you see under Notices of Motion there's a motion there in respect of the Civic Centre Redevelopment Community Advisory Committee?---Yes.

And I think I said in opening that this was moved by Councillors Petch and Salvestro-Martin - the document does indicate that it was moved by Councillors Petch and Tagg. Do you see that?---Yes.

20 Can I ask you to have a look at the seven points that constitute the motion as it was put up. Read those through to yourself for a moment?---Yes.

30

On hearing that motion being put before Council, did it strike you as being in some way similar to what had been proposed to you, that is the report that you were to write and to recommend certain things to happen?---Ah, yes, it mirrored the intent of what was put to me, with the exception that I was to write the terms of reference and, and it was also slightly different in how the community members would be, would be sought. When I had the proposal put to me earlier it named the people to be on that, on that committee.

Now, by the time of this meeting where this motion was put up in respect to the creation of the committee, what was your relationship with Councillor Petch like?---Again it had begun to deteriorate to a degree - it was still cordial and we would still speak with each other but it was quite obvious that Councillor Petch was starting to take a more aggressive stance towards me to try to delay this project.

What about the other Councillors who you've indicated at that point were generally voting against the Ryde City Precinct redevelopment, that is

40 Councillors - well, deal with them one at a time, Salvestro-Martin?---Yes.

What was your relationship with him like by that point?---Ah, well, to give some background, the Councillors were starting to take out advertisements against the project. I'm not sure whether it was around May or soon after May, but they were certainly attacking me in some of those adverts and there was media stories coming through at the same time which were saying what a disgrace it was that this project was proceeding.

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Are these stores in the print media, on radio, on television?--Yes, it was mainly in The Weekly Times.

Okay. Well, just coming back then, thank you for that background, but in terms of your relationship with Councillor Salvestro-Martin by that point? ---Well, these things started making it difficult to have, you know, a healthy relationship, so I used to meet with Councillors on a one on one basis and it wasn't long after this time that that stopped happening.

10 Councillor Li, is there anything you can tell us about your relationship with him by that point?---Ah, always they were cordial face-to-face, the ah, with Councillor Li. Councillor Salvestro-Martin, if I could just, just remember, had been quite aggressive in the Council Chamber on a number of fronts towards me and staff generally in the way that tenders were being managed within the organisation.

20

Right?---Sorry, so Councillor Perram, do you want to go through each one?

Well, I was going to do Councillor- - -?---All right.

Councillor Perram next is fine?---Well, again, Councillor Perram withdrew any contact, I think it was not long after this period that I lodged a complaint against Councillor Perram as a Code of Conduct complaint.

In relation to what?---The way that front page of the TWT saying it's an absolute disgrace the way the tendering process was, was held, which I, not the tendering process, the planning process for the planning proposal, which I , which I took umbrage to. So the, the, the relationship with these Councillors was starting to deteriorate a lot by then and I didn't like

30 working in that environment, to tell you the truth.

40

Right. What about Councillor Tagg?---Councillor Tagg it had been reported to me previously that had been spreading unfounded rumours and I only heard it second or third hand about that I had stitched up a deal already with Crown Developments. This was before the EOI was being called. I'd heard it from several other Councillors that they'd heard it from him that I had stitched up a deal ah, with Crown Development and that we'd already agreed to a price. So I'd been hearing that about some of the Councillors and I reported these matters to ICAC in November 201 1 from memory.

So by May 2012 was there some strain in your relationship?---Yes.

What about Councillor Butterworth?---When Councillor Butterworth was the Mayor I had quite a cordial working relationship with him. This deteriorated after time when I, I spoke to him about a number of matters relating to his treatment of staff and in the end he refused to communicate with me.

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Now, you told us earlier that after you meeting with Mr Abboud and indeed after your further - the later meeting you had with the Mayor, Councillor Etmekdjian, you asked Mr Abboud for some record of his communications with Mr Goubran?---Yes.

And they are the communications leading up to your meeting with Mr Abboud on 13 April, 2012?---Yes. And, yes, it was to, it was to document what he had more or less told me at the meeting in, on April 13.

10 Do you recall receiving an email from Mr Abboud on 6 July, 2012? And this appears, it should be at page 134 of Exhibit 2? Just bear with us for a moment. Do you recognise that?---Yes, if, can you just scroll down to the actual email itself? Or sorry, the content of that email, yes.

If you go to page 136 and it's 136 through to 138?---Yes.

It contains a document setting out what appears to be a summary of certain events?---Yes, that's correct.

20 Was, had you contacted Mr Abboud on more than one occasion in order to ask him for this up until 6 July?---Yes.

And you've indicated that there was a period where he was overseas- - -? ---Yes.

- - - and a period he was unwell?---That's correct. And he apologised to me several times for the delay and, and said he would get it to me as soon as he was able.

30 And what did you do with this document?---Ah, I think I received this document on, on a Friday and I started to prepare - and I can't remember exactly the date of the Friday but it was the day he sent it to me so that was on the 26th, was it, of July?

Sorry, it was 6 July?---Oh, 6 July. Once I had the document I started to prepare my section 1 1 notification to ICAC. I worked on it over the weekend and the following, the following Monday and Tuesday to get it all ready and- - -

40 Had you wanted to receive this before you prepared that notification ?---Yes.

And can I ask you then, do you recall on 9 July receiving a letter from your PA that had been signed by Councillors Tagg and Petch?---Yes.

Can I ask you to have a look at Exhibit 2, pages 72 and 73?--It wasn't actually a letter, it was a, it was a request for a special, it was Notice of Motion from memory.

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10

20

Right. Could you have a look at this document?--Yes.

Is this the request you're referring to?--Yes.

In the form of a document dated 9 July 2012?--Yes.

So addressed to the Mayor and copied to you?--Correct.

Signed by Councillor Tagg and Councillor Petch?---Yes.

So this was seeking an extraordinary general meeting for the purpose of terminating your contract?---Y es.

In the lead up to receiving this document had either Councillor Tagg or Councillor Petch spoken to you about concerned about your performance and the continuation of your work with the Council?---No. I, I did have, I did have a meeting with Councillor Petch as I said earlier to suggest that I ease, ease back on driving the project so hard to have it completed by the timeframe that Council had asked for it to be done.

How - doing your best with timing - - -?---But I had no, no knowledge of this coming, yeah.

Doing your best with timing how soon before this date 9 July had you had such a discussion with Councillor Petch?---1 think it was about three to four weeks prior.

Now I previously asked you to look at some of the Council minutes in respect of the meeting on 8 May, that is the motion that was put up to

30 Council in respect of the creation of the committee - - -?---Yes.

40

- - - that would look at the - - -?---Yes.

- - - Ryde Civic Precinct re-development and your recollection is, or tell me what your recollection is in terms of whether that motion succeeded or didn't?---That motion didn't succeed and it just reaffirmed my view that ifl was to implement such a motion it would have been improper because the majority view of Council on the Mayor's casting vote which is still a vote was of the view that it wanted to proceed with the Civic Precinct project.

You've told me that in the lead up to receiving this document on 9 July neither Councillor Petch nor Councillor Tagg came and specifically spoke to you to indicate that they were going to move that - - -?---No, it was a complete.

Seek an extraordinary meeting for this motion?---It was complete shock to me.

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10

And then do you recall that a meeting was held to consider this notice of motion on 23 July 2012?---Yes, I wasn't present at that meeting I was overseas.

I understand you weren't present but have you subsequently seen the minutes or of the meeting that was held on that occasion?---Yes, I have.

Could I ask you to have a look at pages 5 to 6 to 530. And you recognise those as the minutes of a meeting on 23 July?--Yes.

And they indicate that at that time there was an apology from Councillor Y edelian who was absent?---Correct.

And is it your recollection based on seeing these that at the time the motion that was put up seeking the termination of your contract was passed but then immediately a rescission motion was, was put before the Council ?---Yes, that's correct.

When did you become aware of these events?---Well I was in regular 20 contact with my staff from China. So they, they let me know of the

outcome of the meeting straight away.

30

40

After this meeting had occurred do you recall that you sent on 7 August 2012 a particular memorandum and chronology to Councillor Etmekdjian? ---Yes.

Could I ask you to have a look at a document, now this isn't in the, the Exhibit 2 it's a document that appears at pages 2450 to 2452. And we'll have to make separate copies and have this tendered separately.

Do you see that?---Yes.

Do you recognise that as the memo that you sent the Mayor Councillor Etmekdjian - - -?---Ah hmm.

- - - along with your chronology, if we just scroll down?---Y es.

This is a chronology of events surrounding your meeting with Mr Abboud and subsequent events?--Yes.

So covering the period up to 23 July 2012?--Yes.

I tender that document, Commissioner. That is both the memo and the attached chronology.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. That will be Exhibit 3.

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#EXHIBIT 3 - COPY OF A MEMO FROM MR NEISH TO CLR ARTIN ETMEKDJIAN DATED 7 AUGUST 2012 AND ATTACHED CHRONOLOGY

MR DOWNING: We will have copies made available for the other parties as well.

Shortly after this time at the time when the rescission motion in respect of 10 the termination of your contract was still alive do you recall that some

Supreme Court proceedings were commenced?-Yes.

And do you recall they were proceedings initially commenced by Council and later further proceedings commenced by ICAC?---Yes.

And in effect seeking that there be injunction to prevent any further vote on the, the motion in respect of your temrination?---Y es, that's correct. Councillor Etmekdjian took that action as, as the Mayor.

20 Now this wasn't a period leading up to the September 2012 Mayoral elections?---Y es.

And do you recall on 14 August 2012, sorry I withdraw that. Were you back in, back at work by that time?---Y es.

On 14 August 2012 Justice McCallum granted an urgent injunction preventing the termination, in effect the termination of your employment? ---That's correct.

30 And then subsequently later in September Justice Schmidt made certain consent orders dealing with the Councillor's proceedings and the proceedings ICAC had commenced?---Yes.

Now the Council elections were held on the 8 September 2012?---Yes.

And that resulted in a change in the complexion of the Council?---Yes.

Can you tell us what then happened in terms of the Ryde Civic Precinct re­development?---On the night of the Mayoral election the, Councillor Petch

40 who then been voted as the Mayor adjourned.

Who was, who was the deputy there?---The Deputy Mayor was Councillor Li. He adjourned the meeting until 1 1 o'clock and then we convened from memory it was 1 1 o'clock, and they brought forward to two, two notices, one was to discontinue with the Ryde Civic Precinct and the other was to go to the Supreme Court and seek the injunction against me to be removed.

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Right. And what was the result of the voting on of the, the motions?--(No audible reply)

Dealing, we'll deal only with the Ryde Civic Precinct re-development? --The majority of the Councillors I think it went seven five had voted to cease all, all action.

That effectively killed off the, the project?---Yes.

10 Can I ask you did Councillor Petch ever speak to you during the time that you've been General Manager about the continued employment of Dominic Johnson?---Yes.

20

Now just so that we're clear Dominic Johnson is the Group Manager Environment and Planning at the Council?---Yes.

And one of your, the senior Council staff that worked - - -?---Yes.

- - - worked under you?---Yes.

Doing your best can you tell us when Councillor Petch spoke to you about that, on how many occasions and what he said?---I recall the first time this came up was in my performance review, my first performance review I think that was in October 201 1 . On a completely unrelated matter in my objectives it was raised that the Councillors, well by Councillor Petch and also Councillor Tagg that Mr Johnson was a, was not doing his work right, that the whole development assessment process was in shambles, that I should really think about dismissing Mr Johnson, and even though it wasn't related to any of my performance objectives they pressed this point a couple

30 of times throughout that, that meeting.

Was this a review meeting where both Councillors were present?---Yes. I think the review committee at that time was Councillor Tagg, Councillor Petch and I think Councillor Etmekdjian and I forget the other Councillor, it could have been, I don't know - - -

If you 're not certain don't speculate?--Yeah. That's all right.

So what, what if anything happened as a result of that request then in respect 40 of Mr Johnson's - - -?---Well I informed them that we were reviewing the

whole development assessment process and that, which we did in great detail, and that I found Mr Johnson to be doing a very good job. We improved the processes of development assessment even further and we got much better statistics as a result.

So is this before or after September 201 1 ?---It was - I think all that was happening during that time. There were then a couple of other occasions where other Councillors had come to me to say that Mr Johnson's creating

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problems and I know at the time Mr Johnson had been dealing with Mr Goubran in a very open, transparent and honest way. And Mr Goubran I believe spoke to Mr Abboud about his frustration with the fact that we had sent his development assessment in Eastwood to an independent assessor rather than have Council staff look at it.

When did Mr Abboud speak to you about this? Was this during the meeting you've told us - - -?---This was during the meeting on the 13th, Mr Abboud had mentioned that Mr Goubran had mentioned to him that he had been

10 concerned about a development, his development in Eastwood being slowed down. So there was, there was a couple of occasions where other Councillors had mentioned - - -

Which Councillors?---Councillor Etmekdjian had mentioned it to me that there were problems and as I said Councillor Tagg and Councillor Petch. Now when I, when I left the Council, there was a conversation with Councillor Petch to see if Mr Johnson should also take a, a package to leave at the same time.

20 Sorry, is this something that Councillor Petch discussed with you?---Yes. I put it back to him because I knew of his, because I knew of his, of his predisposition against Mr Johnson and Mr Johnson, I'd spoken to Mr Johnson separately who had come to the view that if he could get a payout he would leave. Councillor Petch initially showed interest and then afterwards when I next met with him declined to take Mr Johnson's offer up.

30

Well I'll come to the meetings and discussions you had with Councillor Petch - - -?---Yes.

- - - leading to the cessation of your employment in a moment. But dealing just with the discussions Councillor Petch had had with you earlier about Mr Johnson's employment, I take it the employment of the General Manager within a Council is a matter that the Council itself determines?---Y es.

Who's responsible for decisions as to the employment of other senior staff within Council ?---The General Manager makes the appointment but must do so in consultation with the Council.

40 Did you have any view about whether it was proper or improper for the Councillors to be speaking to you about Mr Johnson's continued employment?---! thought it was improper at the time and it was raised at a time when there was no reason to raise it, but it was part of my performance review discussions.

Can I then ask you about the nature of your relationship with Councillor Petch from the period after the September 2012 Council elections through

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until January, late January 2013?--Well it was one of, as I said earlier, what I felt was, sorry this was from 2000 and?

After the Council elections in September 2012 - - -?---September, yeah. Yeah, it was - - -

- - - through until late January 2013?---Y eah. It was, it was not a constructive relationship between a General Manager and the Mayor. I think that a Council works best when the General Manager and the Mayor

10 work together. As I said Councillor Petch had refused to meet with me on, on a one on one basis. And I was used to doing that. And there was these continued attacks on me, not led by Councillor Petch as such, but from the Council floor, but it was coming from Councillor Petch's factions, so I knew there was a lot of aggression in the Council Chambers towards my position. And I suspected that was coming from Councillor Petch' s factions, so it was very hard to have trust and a convivial working relationship especially when we'd been to the Supreme Court, especially when Councillor Petch had proceedings in the Supreme Court to be removed so that I could be fired and especially when Councillor Petch had

20 earlier sent me a letter threatening me proceeding with the Civic precinct, suggesting I could be personally liable for damages.

30

Just excuse me one moment. Are you able to identify the date of the letter that you're referring to that Councillor Petch had sent you threatening you might have a personal responsibility?---! have it in my notes. I might be able to ref er to it - - -

Perhaps if you could just locate it for the moment?--- - - - if I may, Commissioner?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, certainly. I'm sorry, they're in my notes at home. I thought it was in this folder but I can make it available.

MR DOWNING: All right. Perhaps if you could after we've finished court today. Are you able to say roughly when it was by reference to the dates that we've been going through today?---Yes, it was, it was about, no I'd rather just check than speculate.

You've made reference in a few of your answers in the last few minutes 40 about Councillor Petch's faction. By that are you referring to the group of

Councillors who generally voted against the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?---That's correct.

Now can I ask you to have a look at page 709 of Exhibit 2. Commissioner, this is a docwnent that does make reference to the identify of a particular IT employee. I would if it might be appropriate now to seek an order in respect of the suppression of that person's identity. The identity won't be of any particular relevance to the Commission I don't anticipate.

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10

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, the identity of the IT officer who made a complaint about a virus as referred to at page 709 of Exhibit 2 is suppressed and may not be published.

SUPPRESSION ORDER ON IDENTITY OF IT OFFICER AS REFERRED TO AT PAGE 709 OF EXHIBIT 2

MR DOWNING: I can indicate there'll be similar references in the documents I'll be coming to shortly which I'll need to seek similar orders.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: All right. Well any, any reference to the name of the IT employee who discovered a virus in any document is suppressed and may not be published.

SUPPRESSION ORDER ON NAME OF IT EMPLOYEE IN ANY 20 DOCUMENT

30

40

MR DOWNING: Mr Neish, I want to ask you about this memo and events before and after that, and I anticipate that some of it might be embarrassing to you and I do apologise for that. But it's important for the purposes of the inquiry. Do you recall receiving this memorandum from the Mayor, Councillor Petch on 5 February?---Yes.

And I take it you read it at the time?---1 read it, yes.

And can you tell us your recollection of the events with respect to you laptop leading up to receiving this document?---! had been - - -

Let's start at the beginning. As part of your - - -?---Yes.

- - - work do you have a Council issued laptop?---Ah, yes, I do.

And in addition to that do you have a desktop computer or a laptop that you use at work?--It was a desktop but I never used my laptop at work.

So have you ever brought it into work in the time that you worked at the Council?---No.

So is that a laptop that the Council issued to you for your, for, in order to do work on?---Y es.

Were you granted as part of the permission that you had from the Council the right to use it for your own personal use?---Yes, I was.

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With that laptop - I withdraw that. With the desktop computer you had at work I take it you were connected to the Council network?--That's correct.

With your laptop at home, it's a Council laptop - - -?---Yes.

- - - but was it connected to the Council laptop, sorry, the Council network? ---No.

10 Did you have your own home internet account?---Y es.

And was it connected to that through a modem?---Yes.

From time to time did you do work on that computer at home?---Yes, I did a lot of work on that computer at home.

From time to time did you also use it for your own purposes, that is in looking at different things on the internet or sending emails, private emails? --Yes. Not private emails. I had, I used it for personal use but also for

20 work use.

On occasion prior to 5 February, 2013 had you looked at adult websites on the computer?---Y es, I had.

Can you tell me then do you recall when you had some contact from someone at the Council about your laptop?---Yes, the person mentioned in that memo had contacted me, I'd just returned from holidays.

Do you recall roughly when this was?---lt was probably, it would have 30 been, I was on holidays in, in, in January so I came back from holidays, it

was - - -

40

Was it late January?---It was late January, it was about - I'd been back at work for about two or three days and he mentioned to me - - -

Did he telephone you, did he come and speak to you in person?---He telephoned me.

That's the IT employee?---Yes.

And said what?---He said that a virus had been detected on Council's :firewall. Now, the - and that I should bring my laptop in which I then did.

And what did you do with the laptop?---! handed it to him to have the virus removed.

Had you noticed any problem with the computer up until that point?--No.

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10

What then happened with your laptop?---! asked on a number of occasions that the laptop be given back to me because I had some work to do it on the weekend and there were excuses made that I, I couldn't have it back.

Over what period of time, are we talking about that day, a couple of days later?---No, it was, it was probably over a week.

And eventually did you get it back?---No, the laptop was - I received this, this memo and - - -

So before receiving the laptop back you received the memo from the Mayor?---Ah, yes.

And what did you then do as a result?---Well, I wanted to ensure that, I wanted to ensure that I wasn't interfering in any process but I received a, a demand to, to give the laptop over to a forensic investigator.

I'll stop you there. Can you have a look at the document at page 725 of Exhibit 2. Is that a memo that you received from Councillor Petch on

20 6 February, the following day?---Yes.

Is that what you're referring to?---Yes.

Now can I just ask you so that we're clear about this, the request from the IT person at Council was for you to bring your laptop into work?---Yes.

Did he identify that the virus had been identified on that computer?---Y es.

Had you ever used your desktop computer at work which was connected to 30 the Council network in order to access any adult websites?---Never.

All right. So you received the memo on 6 February, 2013?---Yes.

And you've been asked now to deliver the computer to Mayor Petch's office?---Yes.

What did you do?---Well, I went seeking the laptop, because I didn't have it.

40 So the IT person to your understanding still had it?---Yes.

And what happened?---! was informed that Mr Newsome who was the Corporate Services Director had impounded the laptop and ah - because he felt that there needed to be a proper Code of Conduct process followed.

You were aware as the General Manager that the Council had a Code of Conduct and that that included, I'll stop there but there was a Code of Conduct?---Yes.

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Was that something that Council staff were educated about - - -?---Yes.

- - - and informed of!---Yes.

Were Councillors informed of it?---Yes.

And trained about what it involved?---Yes.

10 Was that training that Councillors had received as at 2012?---Yes.

And 2013?---Yes.

So you say that you don't, you understood that Mr Newsome had asked for the computer to be impounded?---Yes.

So that a particular form of Code of Conduct - - -?---Process could be followed.

20 And what was your understanding about the Code of Conduct process that you expected would be followed?---Normally in, in these events there would be a Code of Conduct reviewer appointed, there would - - -

Is that someone within the Council or external?---No, externally. They would review the circumstances, there would be a clear notification as to what the Code of Conduct issue was, people would be given - - -

So notification to who, to the - - -?---To - - -

30 - - - person involved?---Yeah, so, yeah, so that there would be due process in place.

Were these matters normally handled confidentially?--Very confidentially.

That is that whatever issue had been raised in respect to the Code of Conduct would be managed confidentially by the Council and the Code of Conduct person - - -?---Yes.

- - - appointed to review it?---Yes, because until that time there's a 40 presumption of innocence.

So is that what you understood the process was likely to be in this case? ---Not when I read these memos, yeah, and then when Mr Newsome told me he had done that that's what I understood would, would be the case. Is that what you understood was the process that should be followed in those circumstances?---Most definitely.

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Did you have a concern about what might actually happen in this case?---1 had a grave concern, I didn't think I would have any clear hearing, I had a grave concern that has also been played out in social media that my reputation would be tarnished and that there would be a whole social media campaign against me.

Did you have any concern that the allegations in respect of the use of your computer that is the laptop might find their way into the media in some way?--Given that I had been subject to a number of, of very personally

10 hurtful rumours leading up to this incident I knew that would be the case.

Now do you recall that subsequent to this memo on 6 February 2013 that you had a meeting with Councillor Petch?--Yes.

And was that on the following day of 7 February?--Correct.

And now you've told us earlier that there was a discussion about not just your employment but also Dominic Johnson's employment?---Yes.

20 Was it during this meeting that that discussion occurred?---Y es. I had, I went to Councillor Petch and suggested that we, we come to an agreed termination of my contract.

Was that during the meeting on 7 February?---Yes.

Right?---And, and he agreed to that. I then drafted some, some positions, some points that I thought would be, that I would like to see in that agreement.

30 That is setting out the, the terms on which you would cease your employment - - -?---Yes.

- - - with the Council?--Yes. Councillor Petch then met with some of the other Councillors I believe of his group and came back the following day with what they would be prepared to accept and not accept, and then it was at that meeting I put to Councillor Petch about Mr Johnson.

So doing your best you believe that was on 7 February or - - -?---Yes.

40 - - - later on 8 February?---It would have been the, the 8th.

Just looking at - can I ask you to look at page 780 of Exhibit 2. Do you recognise this is a, a memo that you sent to Councillor Petch - - -?--Yes.

- - - after your meeting on 7 February?---Yes. And in that were you attempting to summarise what you understood or the terms that you put forward on the 7th. in terms of the basis for your cessation of employment?---Y es.

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10

Did you receive any communication back from Councillor Petch after that? --Yes. We, we spoke a couple of times and also with Bryan Belling who was representing the Council and drafting my deed of release.

Now just stopping there for the - - -?---Yes.

- - - for the moment. Did you speak further on 7 February or 8 February? --On the 8th.

And you've mentioned Bryan Belling. Did you understand that he was a lawyer who'd been appointed by Councillor Petch on behalf of the Council to, to draft the - - -?---Yes.

- - - deed of separation?--Yes.

Commissioner, is that a convenient time?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. We will resume at 2 o'clock. 20 Thank you.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT

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CA VILLPUB00056 1 5/07/2013

CAVILL pp 00056-00102

COPYRIGHT

PUBLIC HEARING

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION

THERESA HAMIL TON ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER

PUBLIC HEARING

OPERATION CAVILL

Reference: Operation El2/l 1 9 1

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AT SYDNEY

ON MONDAY 1 5 JULY 201 3

AT 2.00PM

Any person who publishes any part of this transcript in any way and to any person contrary to a Commission direction against publication commits an offence against section 1 12(2) of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act 1 988.

This transcript has been prepared in accordance with conventions used in the Supreme Court.

1 5/07/2013 El2/1 191

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ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you, please be seated. Yes, Mr Downing.

<EDWARD JOHN NEISH, on former oath [2.0lpm]

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner.

10 Mr Neish, earlier you told us about a letter that you received from Mr, from Councillor Petch in which he asserted that you might need to get some legal advice about possible liability yourself in relation to the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?-Yes.

Can I ask you to have a look at a document. Do you recognise that?---Y es, this is the document I was referring to.

Now, the document's not dated but it refers to a response from your 3 July, 2012. Are you able to say when it was received?--Ah, not specifically, I'm

20 sorry. It wouldn't have been long after that, yes.

I tender that document and we do have copies that can be made available to the parties.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. That letter from Mr Petch to Mr Neish will be Exhibit 4.

#EXHIBIT 4 - COPY OF A LETTER FROM MR PETCH TO MR 30 NEISH RE CIVIC PRECINCT REDEVELOPMENT

40

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner.

Now, just before the luncheon break, Mr Neish, I was asking you about the events leading up to the cessation of your employment and I took you to page 781 of Exhibit 2, which was a, I'm sorry, 780 of Exhibit 2, which was a memorandum from Councillor Petch to you of 7 February, 2013- - -? ---Yes.

- - - where you set out what you understood had been discussed between you and Councillor Petch that day. Can I just ask you, at around this time, that is after you'd become aware of the complaint about the use of your laptop made by the IT employee at the Council, did you speak to any other Council employees about that allegation?---Ah, yes.

I think you mentioned Mr Newsome before?---Correct.

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10

Did you discuss with him what had occurred?---Yes.

And did you tell him that, that the allegation that there had been some access of pornographic material on your laptop at home was true?---Y es.

Did you discuss with him - I think - I'll withdraw that. I think you told us that you had an expectation about the complaint handling process that should follow?---Yes.

Did you speak to Mr Newsome about that?---Ah, only very briefly and in passing because I felt it was improper for me to influence him on that in any respect other than to say that there should be one and it's unlikely that if there was one I would get a, a fair - without one I would get a fair hearing.

Did Mr Newsome say anything about whether he intended to communicate with Councillor Petch about the matter?---Only in that he wanted to tell him that there should be a proper Code of Conduct inquiry.

20 Could you have a look at page 781 of Exhibit 2. Do you see that document is a memorandum from Councillor Petch to you, also of 7 February, 2013? ---Yes.

And do you recall receiving this after you'd sent your earlier memorandum that day?---Yes, I do.

Can you recall what then occurred in terms of the steps that led to the cessation of your employment and the entering into a deed?---1 think it was within the next day, there was a deed of release developed by Mr Belling

30 and I went through that deed of release and made some adjustments and amendments and we got agreement and it was on the Friday and the deed was signed by both myself and Councillor Petch late Friday afternoon.

Could you have a look at pages 783 to 790, we start at 783. Do you recognise that as the deed of release and separation that was signed?--Yes, I do.

And it's correct isn't it that one of the things it provided for was that whilst your employment was to continue until 28 February you wouldn't actually

40 attend for duties over that period?---That's correct.

And it covered a number of other matters such as the payment you would receive and the terms on which you would depart?--Yes.

And it's your signature that appears on page 790, is that correct?---Yes.

And that of the Mayor Councillor Petch?---Correct.

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So was that Friday, 8 February, 2013 - - -?---Yes.

- - - that you in fact finished up?--Yes.

In terms of physically attending work?---Y es.

Are you aware that a media release was issued in respect of your departure? ---Yes, I am and it was attached to this deed of agreement.

10 Was that something that you signed off on as well?---Yes.

20

30

Could you have a look at page 791. Is that the media release?---That is the media release.

Now you've told us earlier in your evidence today that after ceasing employment as General Manager at Ryde Council you have worked I think for your own company and also for ....................................... - - -?---Correct.

- - - consulting with Councils?---Yes.

And did you start that employment soon after finishing up at Ryde Council?---Yes. I did in negotiations with, with ..................................... . . for several months and I was - - -

That's, that's prior to these events?---Prior to these events.

Late January earlier February 2013?---Yes, it was from about December actually.

So is it the case that from about December the previous year you'd given some thought to whether you might seek work elsewhere?---Yes. I had been actually applying for a couple of different positions.

And was, is it a Mr, is it ....................... as the principal of ............................. ?---That's correct.

And had you spoken to him about your, your possible interest in seeking work outside of the or rather than working for the Council?---Y es, he

40 approached me initially.

And had you known him for some years?---Yes. . ............ and I knew each other for about probably five or six years.

Do you recall that not long after you - I withdraw that. When did you actually start up with .................................... doing consulting work?---It was about a week after I left Ryde.

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Do you recall that some time after you started work that ..................... . informed you that a letter had been received by him?---Y es.

An anonymous letter?---Yes.

Could I ask you to have a look at the document that appears at page 2449 of the brief. Now this isn't, I don't understand, there was a volume of documents that were handed this morning. It is? It is, I'm sorry.

10 It is, it is part of Exhibit 2. Do you recognise that as the document - - -? --Yes.

- - - that ........................ came and saw you about?--Yes.

So I take you don't know for a fact who this came from?---No, I don't.

Did you then discuss with ............................ what had happened leading to your, the cessation of your employment at the Council?---Yes.

20 And you informed him of the fact that there had been that finding of pornographic material on your laptop?---Y es.

Can you just excuse me for a moment. Thank you, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Now, does any legal representative want to seek to cross examine this witness?

MR HYDE: Yes, I do, Commissioner.

30 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, certainly. Mr Hyde, if you could just indicate to the witness for whom you act.

MR HYDE: Yes, I act for Councillor Petch. Mr Neish, you gave some evidence about having a telephone conversation I think with Mr Abboud on 9 April, 2012?--Yes.

And you say do you that that was a telephone call asking that you meet with him?---Correct.

40 As best as you can can you the Commission in I said, he said terms what it was that exchanged between the two of you on the telephone?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr Hyde, I don't believe this is a matter upon which your client could have any specific instructions for you at all. We don't, I don't intend to allow general cross-examination of this kind. You're entitled to put anything to the witness upon which you have specific instructions or which directly affects some case that your client may wish to put at the end of the inquiry.

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MR HYDE: Well, Commissioner, I'll be suggesting that this sequence of events and any conversation that is said to have occurred on 13 April did not take place in the terms that is suggested by this witness.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Well, I really don't see how your client could do that, he was not a party to the conversation.

MR HYDE: Well, he wasn't a party but there are going to be other 10 witnesses that will be called and they will no doubt give evidence as to, that

is, Mr Goubran no doubt will say what he understood the conversation to be and no doubt Mr Abboud will be called and he will give evidence about what the conversation is said to have been and at the end of the day that conversation may or may not stack up, my client may or may not have been mentioned and in my submission that is certainly relevant to him at the end of the day given the nature of the accusation.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, but I'm not going to allow you just to go through the evidence again. If you have a particular issue you wish to

20 put to the witness about the conversation then you can do so - - -

30

MR HYDE: All right.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: - - - even if it's based on the evidence of some other evidence that you know will be given but - - -

MR HYDE: All right. Perhaps I can broach it this way, Commissioner. You say that the actual meeting, the face to face meeting occurred on 13 April, have I got that date right?---Correct.

All right. Now, during the course of that meeting with Mr Abboud Mr Petch, that is Councillor Petch's name, was not mentioned in relation to this so-called deal was it?---Yes, it was.

All right. And what do you say it was that was said?---Mr Petch's name was mentioned a couple of times. One is that Mr Goubran had told Tony Abboud that he was phoning back to Mr Petch and the membership of the proposed committee changed, so originally it was going to be Councillor Petch wasn't going to be party to that committee and then after a later

40 conversation Mr Goubran told Mr Abboud that Mr Petch would be a member of that committee.

And it was never said by Mr Abboud to you in that conversation that you would keep your job and that is something that he had been asked to convey by Mr, Mr Petch personally?---That's correct. It was, Mr Abboud put it to me that Mr Goubran had mentioned that should I do these things my position would be secure after the September elections and, sorry, if I could

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10

just add, it was also said in the same conversation that Mr Goubran had said Mr Petch would become the Mayor in September.

And you then reported that conversation, did you, at some point?---Y es, I reported it the following Wednesday to Councillor Etmekdjian, who was the Mayor, expressing my concerns and the need to take the matter further.

And that was something that occurred on 1 8 April, 2012, that is your advice to the Mayor regarding that conversation?---It would have been, yes.

So it would be fair to say, wouldn't it, that some five days passed between the conversation that you had with Mr Abboud at the shopping centre and you reporting that to the Mayor?--That's correct. I met with the Mayor every Wednesday and I met with Mr Abboud on the Friday.

And there was nothing stopping you picking up the telephone and calling the Mayor and asking for an urgent meeting, was there?---No, there wasn't.

And indeed you understood that from your conversation with Mr Abboud 20 that you were being asked to do something that was potentially corrupt.

30

Correct?---That's correct.

Now, did you then prepare or cause to be prepared the document in Exhibit 2 at page 182 which is described as the chronology of events with regards to notification for protected disclosure referral to ICAC?---Yes.

And the first entry on that document refers to a meeting with the Mayor on Wednesday, 4 April, 2012. Would you agree with that?---Yes, when I met with the Mayor, yes.

And it refers to the Mayor asking you whether you'd met with Mr Abboud. Do you agree that you put that there?---Correct.

Right. And your evidence is that the first notice that you had of a proposed meeting with Mr Abboud came in a telephone call on 9 April, 2012?---It was around that time, yes.

All right. What is that entry on 4 of April, 2012, referring to in terms of Mr Abboud contacting you?---He simply phoned me to ask me ifl would be

40 prepared to meet with him and he was not very specific at that time what the meeting was. He said that he would like to talk to me about some issues that had arisen and I'd previously been alerted by the Mayor that he was going to do so.

And you give that evidence notwithstanding your earlier evidence that your first contact with Mr Abboud with respect to this meeting was on 9 April? ---No. The first - sorry, if I had said that I was incorrect. My meeting was always, I thought I'd said 13 April was my first meeting with Mr Abboud,

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but I'd had the telephone conversation with him the previous week when he phoned me to set up a meeting.

And what was it that you were expecting Mr Abboud to contact with - make contact with you regarding on 4 April, 2012?---The Mayor was unspecific. What the Mayor said to me were words to the effect that, has Tony contacted you yet, and I said no, and he said, "Well, he will soon." And he left it at that.

10 And do you, did you understand after you'd had your meeting - sorry, I withdraw that. Did you understand that on 9 April when you received a call from Mr Abboud that it was the same subject matter that the Mayor had referred to in his conversation with you on 4 April, 2012?--I assumed that it was.

And you subsequently became aware that on 13 April a proposition was being put to you. Correct?--Correct.

And you understood that that proposition was something that the Mayor had 20 discussed on 4 April?---I'm not sure what the details of the conversation

was between Mr Abboud and the Mayor.

Now, you always understood, certainly in 2011 and 2012, that Councillor Petch was opposed to the Precinct redevelopment?---Correct.

And he had conveyed to you three things in particular, firstly that he didn't think the development of 600 apartments was appropriate in the area? ---Um- - -

30 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Excuse me, Mr Hyde, as Counsel Assisting made clear, we don't care about the rights and wrongs, we don't care about anything except the fact that Councillor Petch was opposed to it, that's the only relevant fact for our pmposes so I don't really think it's useful to go into what he may have advanced as his reasons.

40

MR HYDE: Thank you, Commissioner.

Now, on 25 June, 2012 you recall receiving an email from a resident, Di Howe?---Not quite specifically, if there's a copy I - - -

You recall that that email and your response and the resident's further response to you was the subject of a notice of motion on 17 July, 2012? ---Ah, yes.

All right. And you recall, don't you, that Ms Howe on 25 June wrote to you in your capacity as General Manager?---Correct.

And she copied in, amongst others, each of the Council members?---Yes.

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And she was expressing grave concerns with respect to the development? --Yeah, there were a number of residents doing that at that time, not many but maybe 10 or so.

And it's the case isn't it that you responded to that email on 26 June, correct?---Yes.

And you made certain observations about the proposed development?--! 10 was answering some of the queries that she had raised and I was responding

I thought to answer her queries.

20

And when you responded to her you saw fit to only include those Council members that were in favour of the proposed redevelopment?---Y es, that was at the time an error.

And you then were - I withdraw that. You then received a further email from the resident, Ms Howe, on 28 June, 2012, do you recall that?---Not specifically.

And can I suggest to you that she was critical of you for not copying in each of those Council members to whom she had complained?---Yes, I recall that, yes.

And you were then asked during the course of a meeting on 1 7 July to explain to those Council members why it was that only those members in favour of the development were copied in on the correspondence?---That's correct.

30 And you, you said when asked, pardon me, Commissioner, you said when asked to give an explanation words to the effect, That is an explanation as to why you'd only copy in those Council members that took a favourable view of the development, you said this is the only case I have ever done this. I did decide to send it back and copy it to the six Councillors who supported the project. This was because I knew that other Councillors were spreading misinformation. That's what you said, isn't it, or words to that effect? ---That's correct.

40 Now - - -?---As I said, it was an error.

All right. And you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that that's inconsistent with your role as General Manager?---Correct.

And it would be fair to say that you were an ardent supporter of the proposed redevelopment?---When you say an ardent supporter from -there's, there's two aspects. One was that the Council resolution was that I should, should support it and secondly, to me it made good, personal, on my personal professional level it made good economic and community sense.

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But you understood that there were significant numbers with the community that took a view different to that?--Yes, I understood that there was an opposing view within the community.

And indeed there were a number of residents' groups that sent in letters raising their concerns with the proposed redevelopment?---That's correct.

Now, on 9 July, 2012, you were provided with the document in Exhibit 2 at 10 page number 72, that is a note from the Mayor addressed to you concerning

a request for an extraordinary meeting of the Council. Correct?-Yes.

And you understood at that point in time that a motion was to be raised seeking your removal from your position as General Manager?---Correct.

And you of course weren't happy with that motion?---! was surprised by the motion.

And then it's fair to say isn't it that two days later, namely on 1 1 July, 2012, 20 you made your protected disclosure to ICAC. Correct?---That's correct, but

I'd been working on, on that document since I received Mr Abboud's email on the previous Friday and if you saw the substance of the section 1 1 disclosure it is quite, it is quite time-consuming to put all that work together.

30

Now, you refer to Mr Abboud's letter to you. That was quite lengthy and detailed, wasn't it?---It was about a two and a half page letter.

And on how many occasions did you need or did you contact Mr Abboud to get him to produce that document?---! think it- - -

Perhaps ifl can ask firstly how many telephone calls did you mak:e?---1 think - and it was in that chronology of events, I think there was about three or four.

Was that telephone calls?---Yes.

And email contact?--Oh, sorry, I had seen Mr Abboud I think at a social function in between and I asked him again if he could provide me with that.

40 All right. And when was that social function?---Ah, I can't recall the specifics but it would have - it was in that period.

All right. And when you met with him at the social function, what did you discuss?---Ah, it was simply, have you put together the, the information as requested and he said he'd started working on it. I think the social function was actually at a function in Eastwood. But I asked him if he had completely putting it together, he said he'd started working on it and it would be with me shortly. Sorry, it was in Epping, not Eastwood.

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I'm sorry?---! think it was in Epping, not Eastwood.

Right. So you say that there are three telephone calls, one social engagement. Were there any other attempts to extract this information from Mr Abboud?---No. I'd, I'd spoken to the Mayor at the time, Councillor Etmekdjian, who said he would also ask Mr Abboud if he could provide the information.

10 And did you ever speak with Mr Etmekdjian regarding whether he had been successful in those endeavours?--Yes, he said he had spoken to Tony and that Tony was, said he would get it to me as soon as he could.

Now, Mr Abboud is a real estate in the area?---A real estate agent, yes.

Yes. And he was also an individual that was participating in a formal sense in some of the committees directed at getting the development off the ground. Correct?---! think he was in one of the working groups, yes.

20 And which working group was that?---1 think it was on engaging with the community because Mr Abboud had extensive contacts through both his work and his charitable work and his networking, so he was giving advice on community engagement and was helping when we had open forums to invite members of the community along and getting access and putting together fliers et cetera for that.

30

40

And it's the case and I think you've already said this in your earlier evidence that Mr Abboud addressed Council on 27 March 2012 about proposed redevelopment?---lt would have been around that time, yes.

And you would agree with the proposition that he was quite passionate about this development going ahead?---Yes, as were many other members of the community.

And he said during the course of his address to Council that those and this is, if you can accept this is in words to the effect of, those who were opposed to the development were acting out of self interest. Do you recall him saying that on the, on 27 March don't you?---Not specifically but it wouldn't surprise me.

Did you ever have discussions with Mr Abboud about what his interests were with respect to the proposed redevelopment?---Never.

Did he ever indicate to you that he would like an opportunity to sell some of the 600 or so apartments that were to be developed?--Never.

Pardon me, Commissioner, I think - if I could just take a moment to check I think I've finished.

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10

20

Now you referred in your evidence to receiving some correspondence from Councillor Petch warning about some personal liability if you entered into any contractual arrangements with respect to the proposed development? --Yes, and that's the letter that was subsequently tabled at the opening of this session.

And you understood didn't you or perhaps if you could tell me what was the date on that piece of correspondence?

MR DOWNING: It's undated.

THE WITNESS: It's undated.

MR HYDE: You understood though that the September elections were impending?---Yes.

And you understood that Council was in effect going into what might loosely be tenned as caretaker mode?---Not in, in July.

But getting dangerously close, would you agree with that?---Y es. And I had extensive legal advice on that from both Clayton Utz and Barry O'Keefe QC as to how to proceed during that period and I'd written to Mr Woodward the, the head of the Division of the Local Government seeking his advice on that matter as well. Right. But you would accept wouldn't you that there is a certain period leading up to an election where it would be inappropriate to commit Council to significant new contracts?---Yes, and I was very cognisant of that.

30 Yes. Nothing further. Thank you, Commissioner.

40

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR BENDER: Commissioner, I'd like to ask no more than four or five possibly fewer questions on behalf of Councillor Salvestro-Martin?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. I mean again it's difficult to see how Mr Salvestro-Martin could have any specific instructions on much of the evidence of this witness.

MR BENDER: Well, indirectly and in the sense that his case is that he never issued any instruction of the nature that's been alleged so it must follow that no instructions (not transcribable) had been passed through the chain.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. And he can certainly give that evidence but I don't know how you can test or question evidence that he couldn't know about. But look I'm happy for you to ask - - -

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MR BENDER: It's really by way of clarification.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: - - - a reasonable proportion of questions.

MR BENDER: Thank you, Commissioner.

On 13 April, 2013 - I'm sorry, I should say my name is Bender, I appear for Councillor Salvestro-Martin. On 13 April, 2013 Mr Neish - 2012 I should

10 say, Mr Abboud never said to you that the proposal that was being put to you was being put at the request of Councillor Salvestro-Martin, did he? ---No, but he did mention that Mr Goubran had said that, had requested that this committee's terms of reference that I was to draw up would have Councillor Li, Salvestro-Martin and Petch on that steering committee along with Councillor Yedelian and Maggio.

Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, does anyone else wish 20 to cross-examine this witness?

30

MR McLURE: Yes.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR McLURE: Commissioner, I wish to ask questions on behalf of Mr Tagg.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr McLure.

MR McLURE: Mr Neish, you've said already that the three options that you initially put forward in relation to the redevelopment of the Civic site were firstly do nothing at all, secondly a limited redevelopment and thirdly an entire redevelopment of the site. Correct?---No, that's not quite correct. The three options put forward reflected the views put to me by one-on-one conversations with Councillors and they were proceed prior to September, proceed - that's September 2012, proceed post September 2012 or do nothing.

40 Could you look at page 423 of Exhibit 1 please. Do you see that about halfway down the page there's a reference to an executive summary, do you see that paragraph?---Yes.

And do you see it refers to the three options being do nothing, the refurbishment option and the development option, do you see that?---Y es.

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10

And the reference to the executive summary is the document to be found at page 456 isn't it?---Sorry, which Council meeting was this? Was this the 10 October Council meeting?

Well, the first document that you looked at at page 423 - - -?---Yes.

- - - was from the meeting on 6 June, 2012?--0h, yes, sorry, I was previously referring, I'm sorry, to the October meeting of Council, the 1 8 October meeting of Council.

201 1 ?---Yes, my mistake.

All right. Well, on any view of it though one of the options which you understood at least in April 2012 that was open to Council to still select at that time or in the future was to not proceed with the development and do nothing, do you agree?---We put into place a series of gateways for Council to consider and each of those decision points, do nothing was always an option.

20 And that option to do nothing, so far as you understood it in April 2012, would still have been available to the new Council after the election in September, 2012, do you agree?---Yes.

Now, you've already agreed haven't you that you were a strong supporter of the redevelopment option?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: No, he didn't agree with that proposition.

MR McLURE: I withdraw the question. Do you agree that you were a 30 strong supporter of the development option?---1 agree that in my

professional opinion the development option was the best outcome for the residents ofRyde.

And that an opinion that you had made known to all of the Members of the Council as at April 201 1, correct?---! had made recommendations in accordance with the Council's decision to proceed. Now, if Council had said, which they did subsequently do in, after the last election, not to proceed then I wound the project up.

40 Your professional opinion that the redevelopment option was the best option for the Council was one that you had made known to all members of the Council, correct?---Not necessarily, no.

Well, do you agree that as at April 2012 you had found yourself in conflict with the six members of the Council who were opposed to the redevelopment?---Yes.

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So you appreciated didn't you that if after the September 2012 election the balance of power in the Council changed such that those against the development became - formed a majority that would increase the risk of your employment with the Council being terminated?---Not necessarily. It would increase the risk only if the Councillors of the day had decided to terminate my employment in accordance with the contract. Could I say, my professional judgement wasn't what was driving me at that time, it was a resolution of Council to proceed, they had built it into my performance objectives to have it done by a certain date and I was very focussed on

10 delivering what the Council had asked me to do. The political, the political nuances really of what may happen after the election and whether that would secure my employment or not, for me was not a matter of consideration.

What I'm asking you to accept is that in April 2012 you appreciated that if after the September 2102 election the majority of members were opposed to the redevelopment, that may increase the risk of the termination of your employment?---N o, not necessarily.

20 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I don't think that's a fair - I'm sorry, don't answer that question. I don't think that's a fair question. He was following through on a resolution, he says his personal opinion had nothing to do with it. I don't think it is reasonable to expect that because he was following through on a resolution made by a previous Council his employment would be in jeopardy if other Councillors were elected.

MR McLURE: Now, could you look at page 182 of Exhibit 2, please. You've already said, haven't you, in answer to questions from Mr Hyde that when Mr Abboud contacted you on 9 April, 2012, you understood that he

30 was contacting you about the matter that Mayor Etmekdjian had raised with you in your meeting with him on 4 April, 2012?---I assumed so, yes.

And you say don't you that when you ultimately met with Mr Abboud on 13 April, 2012, he made an offer to you and/or conveyed to you an implicit threat that if you didn't do something then corrupt conduct would be engaged in. Correct?---He didn't, he put it forward on behalf of another party.

But you say don't you that what he was asking you to do was to engage in 40 corrupt conduct?---Y es, but not by Mr Abboud himself.

No. Now, it must have come as a surprise to you that this was the matter that the Mayor had mentioned to you in the conversation you had with him on 4 April, 2012?---The Mayor was unspecific so I, I was bemused at first at the audacity of the suggestion, I was a bit surprised, yes.

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10

You've already agreed haven't you that what you thought Mr Abboud was coming to see you about was something that the Mayor had spoken to you about on4 April, 2012?--Yes, but- - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr McLure, the witness has made it clear that the Mayor didn't specify any matter that was to be discussed, he just asked whether a meeting had been set up or suggested a meeting would be set up, so I think it's quite unfair to say he should have assumed it was the same matter.

MR McLURE: I'll try to do it differently, I'm sorry. When, when the Mayor spoke to you about it on 4 April, 2012, you must have assumed that he knew something about what Mr Abboud was going to talk to you about?

MR DOWNING: I object to that, it doesn't follow.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: No, it doesn't follow, and I don't see how it's helpful in any way.

20 MR McLURE: All right. Well, when you met with the Mayor again on 1 8 April, 2012, did you ask him whether he had any knowledge of what it was you say Mr Abboud put to you on 13 April ?---The Mayor at that meeting gave an indication that it was in keeping with what Mr Abboud had previously spoken to him about, but he just give an indication, he didn't say, oh, that's exactly what it was, he, he, but he given an indication that was a knowing indication that something like this was being proposed to me on the 13th.

Sorry, I just want to make sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying 30 that on 18 April 2012 the Mayor told you that what you say Mr Abboud said

to you was in keeping with what he understood was going to be put to you? ---He inferred it in our discussions and then at the end of the conversation he said that I should proceed and, and do the right thing and he also mused at the time because I don't think he understood all the details 'cause he mused at the time as to how Mr Goubran could guarantee that Mr Petch would become the Mayor.

All right. Well to the extent that - I'll start again. So you do say don't you that you told Mayor Etmekdjian that Mr Abboud had made an offer to you

40 that you should engaged in corrupt conduct in a way that would preserve your employment, correct?---Y es.

And do you say that Mayor Etmekdjian said to you that that was in keeping with what he understood Mr Abboud was going to say?---No, not specifically. I think he was more, I think he was more focused on the fact and you'd have to ask Councillor Etmekdjian this but he was more focused on the fact that that the suggestion to delay the Civic Precinct would be

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somehow supported by the Liberal and the Labor group that supported the project.

Well did you ask the Mayor whether or not he was a party to the corrupt proposal that you've referred to?---No.

Why didn't you?--Because he didn't put anything corrupt to me.

No. But you're saying that Mr Abboud put to you a proposal that according 10 to the Mayor was in keeping with is understanding of what it was going to

be?---Sorry, not, not the detail of it being a corrupt act I don't think the Mayor had considered until I pointed out to him that it was a corrupt act, he was more involved with the understanding that a proposal what I inferred from our conversation he was more involved in the proposal to create a committee to delay the project. He, he didn't understand at the time until I explained it to him that it was an act to corrupt my decision making as the General Manager.

And without asking him did you assume that the Mayor was not a party to 20 the corrupt element of the proposal?---No, because he was totally against

any suggestion that a committee be formed.

30

Yeah. But could you answer my question. Did you assume without asking him that the Mayor was not a party to the corrupt component of the proposal?---Yes.

Now you told the Commissioner earlier that some time later Mr Petch was talking to you about the elements of Mr Johnson's performance that he considered to be unsatisfactory, correct?---That's correct.

And you regarded - - -?---Sorry, it was some time prior to this it was in my performance review in 201 1 .

And you regarded Mr Petch' s act of speaking to you about that matter to be inappropriate did you?---Correct. Mr Petch and Mr Tagg and I recalled over the lunch break Mr Butterworth had similar conversations with me.

And when you say inappropriate do you mean corrupt or unlawful?---No. It's not based on, on any judgement that I was aware of and there was no

40 evidence of poor performance and it was improper 'cause it was raised during my performance appraisal not against the objectives they were there to assess me on but it got, it got raised separately.

Well surely one of the criteria that they needed to assess you on was your skill and capacity to manage your subordinates?---Yes, but that wasn't, that wasn't in and it goes to the heart of how the performance management system went. I had objectives and then against each of those objectives were decisions to likely to ship managing performance and those things

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against each objective. The issue around Mr Johnson came out of the blue and it wasn't related in any way.

This, this performance appraisal meeting that you had with Mr Petch was not the only time that Mr Petch and Mr Tagg and other members of the Council had raised with you their lack of satisfaction with Mr Johnson's performance, correct?---Not the only time that they and other Councillors had raised that.

10 All right. Now, you know don't you that under the Local Government Act you are required to consult with the Council before hiring or firing senior staff?

20

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr McLure, he's already given that evidence.

MR McLURE: Well, he gave that evidence - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR McLURE: - - - in relation to hiring but not firing.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Well - - -

THE WITNESS: I had no intention of firing Mr Johnson, he was doing an excellent job on all accounts.

MR McLURE: Well, but doesn't it follow that if you're required by the law to consult with Councillors in relation to whether or not someone should be

30 fired that it is entirely proper for such Councillors to raise with you their dissatisfaction with the performance of such an officer?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Only if they're consulted with I would have thought. If he doesn't want to consult with them because he's perfectly happy with the person they can't raise anything.

MR McLURE: Well, that's - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: And anyway, that's a matter for 40 argument. I've given you a lot ofleeway here. Councillor Tagg has no

knowledge at all about most of the issues that you've been cross-examining this witness about and couldn't have any knowledge of conversations except this matter you're now on so - - -

MR McLURE: Well, I'm just about to finish, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

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MR McLURE: Mr Neish, I want to put this proposition to you, that the way in which you have reacted to what Mr Abboud said to you and the way in which you reacted to Mr Petch and Mr Tagg put to you in relation to the performance of Mr Johnson demonstrates that when people who were opposed to the Council redevelopment made some proposal to you you assumed that it's improper.

MR HARRIS: I object. Commissioner - - -

10 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Sorry, that question is just wrong on so many levels, I can't even begin to say, I'm not allowing it.

20

MR McLURE: Nothing further, thank you.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

MR STANTON: Commissioner, in Mr Goubran's interests please, ma'am.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR STANTON: Thank you.

Mr Neish, I appear for Mr Goubran. Mr Neish, it's fair to say, sir, that you regard corrupt conduct as something absolutely an anathema to you as a local government official, do you not?---Correct.

And as a General Manager you would not hesitate to ensure that at the very earliest opportunity of being apprised of corrupt conduct you'd do whatever you could to report it immediately would you not?---Y es, as long as I had

30 the evidence sustaining that report.

Yes, and assuming that the evidence was in a manner sustainable you wouldn't take on the role of an investigator or a police person, to use the phrase, you'd have it reported to the authority that was empowered to do the investigation would you not as soon as possible?---Yes, once I had the, the reason to put to them.

And you felt that you didn't have enough information until some time - was it August, sir, you made the section 11 declaration, 2012?---Yes, I think it

40 was.

And what date in August, sir, from your recollection?---It's on that chronology of events if l can have a look.

Well, I can help you if l may, sir, the chronology goes to 23 July, page 183? ---Ah, sorry, it was on 11 July I made the section 11 notification, not August.

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I see, thank you.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I mean that evidence has previously been given as well, Mr Stanton.

MR STANTON: I appreciate that, ma'am but - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I'm happy for you to cross-examine but could you please not repeat evidence that's already been given with

10 incorrect dates in it, thank you.

MR STANTON: Certainly, Madam Commissioner.

Now, this exercise started on 4 March did it, sorry, 4 April, did it not, when Mr Abboud contacted you?--No, Mr Abboud and I met on 1 3 April and that's when I was appraised of the approach.

Wasn't it, sir, that you gave evidence a little earlier, and correct me, I don't want to give you an incorrect date, but wasn't there some discussion of

20 4 April being mentioned or have I got that incorrectly?---I think 4 April may have been when the Mayor had asked me if I was, I had a meeting coming up with Mr Abboud.

30

I don't want to go over already well-fallowed territory but you say that all the Mayor asked you was with words to the effect had you had the meeting with Mr Abboud and nothing else, is that right?---That's correct.

At that stage had Mr Abboud contacted you on 4 April?---No, he contacted me, I think it was on 9 April.

You say in your chronology that on 4 April with the meeting with the Mayor, page 182, sir, that you advised you were meeting on the 23rd?---Ah, sorry, that was a typographical error.

Yes. Well, what, what is the correct evidence insofar as that represents a typographical error?---It should have been the 13th but that would say that Mr Abboud contacted me prior to 4 April.

Well, what's the evidence, Mr Neish?---I don't have the exact detail with 40 me of when Mr Abboud phoned but I was assuming it was the 9th because

that's what my learned friend over here was saying but - - -

You see, you have already given evidence it was 9 April, which doesn't appear in your chronology, does it?---No.

It's a simple question, sir?---No.

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Thank you. And you say that in the conversation of 9 April the words were to the effect that you were going to meet with him on behalf of others. That's what he was telling you, Abboud, is that right, paraphrasing as I am? ---When I met with him in 13 April?

No, sir, the conversation on 9 April?---Yes.

The evidence you've given earlier today- - -?---Yes.

10 - - -was with words to the effect, Abboud said at the time he had a proposal to put to me on behalf of others, he would tell me more when we met? ---Yes.

It was unspecific?---Correct.

I agreed to meet. See that?---Correct.

Well, not see that, do you remember saying that?---Yes.

20 Yeah. And you met at the Top Ryde Coffee Lounge. Is that right?---It was in the Top Ryde Shopping Centre in a coffee lounge. I'm not sure ofits exact name.

That was on 10 April?---On the 13th.

Well, see, I've got here 10 April is my note that you've given in evidence. Is it - and subject to correct, was it 13 April you say you met?---Yes, it was the 13th.

30 Okay?---1 was consistent with that.

All right. And it was at 1 1 .00am?---Y es.

Right. Now, insofar as you met with Abboud, did you take notes at the time?---No, I didn't have a notepad with me. Mr Abboud had notes and- - -

I didn't ask you that, I asked did you take notes?---Yes, not- - -

Just listen to my question, please, if you would?---Not contemporaneously. 40 I went back to the office and then wrote up notes.

Okay. So you took back, so you went back to the office after 13 April and you wrote up notes of the conversation?---Yes.

And where were they contained, in a notebook, exercise book?--In my diary.

Sorry?---In my diary.

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Have you produced that diary to this Commission?---Yes.

Right. And are those notes available to your knowledge still with this Commission?--! believe so.

Has the diary been returned to you?---No.

No. Now, insofar as you wrote those notes up in the diary, was that the 10 practice that you did for each and every meeting you had with Abboud?

--No.

Was it the practice that you compiled contemporaneous notes in that diary for phone calls you had with Abboud concerning this matter, the reference from, allegedly from Goubran?--The - sometimes I just made notes in my diary contemporaneously and if they were detailed notes I, I would sometimes do it contemporaneously or I'd do it after I'd had the conversation.

20 Now, can we agree on one feature of those notes. Were they contained within your diary or were they compiled elsewhere?---No, they were contained in my diary.

30

And only in your diary?---Correct.

Not on your computer?---No.

No?---Except when Mr Abboud sent me his version of events on, on my computer, I responded to him saying thank you.

And that's the only comment you made?---Yes.

Yeah. Now, did you use those notes from Abboud in July together with your contemporaneous notes to compile the section 1 1 notification?---Yes.

In part?---Yes.

And did you effectively, as far as your evidence is concerned here today, rely on Mr Abboud and Mr Abboud only for what was being communicated

40 by him?---Yes.

You didn't go and seek out or source out from elsewhere that what Abboud was putting to you concerning Goubran's alleged representations was in fact to your satisfaction coming from Goubran through Abboud?---No, I didn't see that as being my role, I believed that to be the role ofICAC.

I didn't ask you whether it was your role.

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MR DOWNING: I object.

MR STANTON: Well, well, I'll, I'll, well, I'll- - -

MR DOWNING: If he would let the witness finish his answer- - -

MR STANTON: Certainly, Mr Downing.

MR DOWNING: - - -it might actually assist us in getting a proper flow of 10 questions and answers.

MR STANTON: Noted, Commissioner. Sorry, Mr Neish, please finish? --Yes, I was saying that I felt once I had the information from Mr Abboud, to verify whether this conversation took place or not was not my role, it was for an investigating authority to do that.

But you see you relied on Abboud, did you not, for the dissemination of the information and its accuracy, because you took no other steps to see whether it was correct or otherwise, other than referring it to the investigative body.

20 Is that the case?---That is the case.

30

Yes. And to the extent that you trusted Abboud, as you obviously did, did you not?---1 trusted Mr Abboud.

Yes. What was your relationship with him as at 10 April?---As I have said earlier, I met with him on several occasions, he was a member of a strategic planning group that we were doing a strategic plan for the city, I met with him in his role of the various Chambers of Commerce he represented and I had seen him at functions.

He was a businessman who had an interest in Council matters did he not as a real estate agent?---Yes.

He had clients who had planning proposals did he not?---I'm not sure.

Well certainly it's within your assumption that he would have clients who had planning developments?---Not necessarily. I thought he sold real estate not development.

40 Well real estate is certainly something that receives development consideration does it not within Council consideration in terms of business?

MR DOWNING: I object.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Normally not by the real estate agent, Mr Stanton - - -

MR STANTON: I didn't say by the real - - -

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ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well - - -

MR STANTON: Commissioner, I'm not trying to argue with you, ma'am.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: You're speculating and I don't think it even follows from what you're saying that a real estate agent would have applications before the Council.

10 MR STANTON: But certainly clients of real estate agents may well have applications for, before Council would they not?---I was unaware of any Development Applications from Mr Abboud.

20

My question - - -?---And, and normally I wouldn't be as a General Manager I didn't get too close to that anyway.

Appreciate that, sir, but my question is not whether there were applications but it was within Mr Abboud's clientele possibly that they may have applications before Council may they not?---That's supposition.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Anybody may have applications before Council his clients were no more or less likely than anybody else I suppose.

MR STANTON: Thank you, Commissioner. Now moving on if we may to this meeting at the Top Ryde Centre in the coffee lounge was it customary to meet Mr Abboud there in the coffee lounge?---We didn't meet very often, in fact that was one of the very few informal meetings I can recall ever having with Mr Abboud.

30 And this was a meeting alluded to by the Mayor without any specificity was it not - - -?---Correct.

40

- - - as at before? And was there any problem in you seeing him in your office Mr Abboud?---No.

But you decided to go to the coffee lounge, is that right?---Yes.

Was there any reason to have the meeting outside of the Council office area?---Only it was a more pleasant setting.

I see. And being so far as it was a more pleasant setting the meeting occupied you say one hour from 1 1 .00am?---About that approximately.

You took no notes at the time?---No.

And you relied on your contemporaneous recording of them later in your diary to give your evidence here today, is that correct?---Yes, I went back to

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10

the office and I wrote down some notes and I asked Mr Abboud his, his version of events in writing as well.

And when you say you asked for his version of the events in the course of that one hour he gave you his version is that, is that the case?---Y eah, he had some notes with him already that he had taken from his discussions when he spoken to Mr Goubran so I assumed and he didn't get back to me until about whatever the dates were some time later with his written version of events that I put into the section 1 1 notification to ICAC.

Now bearing in mind, sir, that what he was communicating to you was tantamount to corrupt conduct on one view was it not?---Y es.

Just excuse me, sir, the question can be answered yes or not - - -?---Yes.

- - - surely?---Yes, it was.

Thank you. And in so far as you agree with me that it was tantamount to corrupt conduct on one view and he was referring to notes did you take

20 custody of those notes for the purpose of reading them while you were at the coffee lounge?---He should them to me but I didn't take custody - - -

My question, sir - - -?---1 didn't take custody of them it wasn't my right to do so.

Well just, well did you ask for them and he said no?---1 asked him if he, if he could write them up because they were in bullet points.

I see. So you saw enough of them to know they were in bullet points? 30 ---Yes.

How many pages were there?---It was on about a page and a half of his notepad.

Of his what?--Of his notebook.

I see his notebook. What sort of notebook was it?--It was a small notebook about that big.

40 You say small. You're indicating with your hands?---Yes, it's - well I don't know that size it's A6.

Well then, well then do the best you can?--A6 perhaps.

A6 and what brand of notebook did you see that?---1 wouldn't have a clue.

(not transcribable)?---It was bound, it was a bound notebook.

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SOT

10

20

30

Yeah. What colour pen did he use to write the notes?

MR DOWNING: I object. I'm not sure that Mr Neish has given evidence that he saw Mr Abboud writing up the notes, that's not as I understood his evidence at all.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: No, he didn't but I suppose he might have observed what info were written in it, he had a particular good memory.

THE WITNESS: Yeah, I think it was, I think it was black.

MR STANTON: You think it was black, yeah?--Yes.

And a page and a half of A6 you think note paper?---Yes. In, in point form.

And you say you read them?--He showed them to me I didn't read them all in detail but he took me through them and he kept referring to them to make sure that his, his facts were accurate when he was talking to me about it.

So as so far as he took you through them in detail I assume he showed them to you?---Yes.

And you read them when he showed them to you?---Not in detail, he took me through them.

Did you read them at all?---Yes.

All right. What, what do you - - -?---Later.

Sorry, sir?---Later.

How much later?---When I received a copy of them.

Mr Neish, have you finished? I asked, I asked you did you read them?---1 was going to answer your question.

Sorry?---I was going to answer your question. I read - - -

40 No, no, it's not your province to ask me questions?---No, I was going to answer, answer your question, I'm - - -

Sorry?---I was going to answer your question.

Oh, I'm sorry?---Y ou asked me ifl had read them.

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10

20

30

40

Yeah?-Yes, I had read them insofar as he was sitting at the table, he had them, he showed them to me and I, I briefly scanned them but I didn't read them in great detail.

Yeah. This was over the hour was it not?---Yes, and Mr Abboud was talking me through them.

Yes. And insofar as you scanned them can you recall what they said as you sit here in the witness box today?--Yes.

Well, what did they say?---They said that Mr Abboud had met with Mr Goubran and that Mr Goubran had put some propositions to him about the make-up of the committee to be formed for the Civic Precinct review committee and that the Councillors' names to be on that committee were Councillor Petch, Li, Salvestro-Martin and two Liberals being Yedelian and Maggio and that there would be members of a community committee being - and there was about four names but one of them being Mr Abboud and that two of my, two of my executive team, being Mr Johnson and Ms Dickson and Mr Abboud put to me that Mr Goubran had said - - -

Mr Neish, I'm just asking you, sir, what else was on the notes, I'm asking you about the notes, nothing orally at this stage. What, what did you read is what I'm interested in?---Ah, I, I - - -

As far as you scanned them I think you said?---1 read the, the, the, the members of the different committees and the proposition in bullet points.

And what of those propositions in bullet points, what can you recall now? ---1 was just explaining that.

Nothing other than - well, in terms of exhausting - - -?---No, the propositions in bullet points was this committee of review would be formed, that I was to do a report to the Council, I think there was a bullet point about the terms of reference I had to write. My job would be secure after September when Petch would be the Mayor. Now I'm, I'm recalling that detail but I think there was enough bullet points to give substance to what was later reaffirmed in more detailed writing by Mr Goubran, Mr Abboud.

Well, just about that bullet point about your security of position?---Y es.

What do you recall was that bullet point or is it - or have I exhausted your recollection on that particular bullet point?---Well, you've exhausted my recollection but I did query it with Mr Abboud in some detail so that was verbal.

Now, you say, sir, that you've left some notes at home?---Sorry - - -

Today?--- - - - they were found.

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They were found?---Yes, and that's what was just tabled after the break.

And what do those notes refer to that were just found?

MR DOWNING: Commissioner (not transcribable) clarification. My friend might be referring to the evidence about a letter before from Councillor Petch not notes made by this witness.

10 MR STANTON: Oh, no, well, no - - -

MR DOWNING: Because I don't there has been any evidence about notes having been left at home.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: No.

MR STANTON: Well, Commissioner, I will stand corrected but I will say this I've got a note here, "I will need to refer to my notes, they are not with me, I'm sorry, I've left them at home." Now, do you recall giving that

20 evidence, Mr Neish?---Yes, I do.

30

Well, at least you and I are on the same point?---And then, and then I recalled it was in the evidence that I had prepared for the section 1 1 - - -

Yes?--- - - - and they were found and they were tabled after lunch.

Well, they were tabled after lunch?---Y es.

Okay, right?---It's this, this document.

So they're the notes you're referring to?---Correct.

Okay. Now, I think also did you say that it was a direct threat you say Abboud communicated to you allegedly from Goubran, you say it wasn't a direct threat but rather it was something that was implied?---Yes.

Do you remember saying that?---Yes.

What were the circumstances of implication that you understood that made 40 it implied as opposed to express?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, I'm just concerned you're not putting correctly to the witness what was said. As I understood the evidence he asked Mr Goubran was it a direct or implied threat and Mr Abboud said it was an implied threat. So it's no good asking him what was meant by the word implied.

MR STANTON: Thank you, Commissioner.

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10

Insofar as you say Abboud said he said not a direct threat, it was implied, did you ask him what was the nature of the implication in terms of him referring to it as implied?---Yes.

And what did he say?---He said it was implied that if you did these things then your position would be secure after September.

And- - -?---Which I took as a, I, I took at that point as a threat.

Now, you haven't given that evidence here today, have you?-(No Audible Reply)

You haven't, you haven't given evidence of what you asked Abboud about today, have you?---In what way?

I put to you, sir, you were, you said, Abboud said, he said not a direct threat, it was implied. And then I've asked you about what was the circumstance concerning the implication, what did you say to him. You've just answered

20 now what, words to the effect, what did he mean by that. You never gave that evidence earlier today, did you?---As far as my personal view was concerned, no.

No?---But I wasn't asked that.

No. Well, see, sir, you see, here you are receiving a threat to your job security, are you not?---Correct.

And you have a conversation with, with Mr Abboud as to what would it be 30 that would be implied as to the tenure of my employment being under

threat?---Correct.

40

And you didn't give any evidence about that until I asked you today. Is that right?---Well, I did actually because in the, in the chronology of events that was tabled I was very clear that I mentioned it to Councillor Etmekdjian when I met with him the following Wednesday.

See, in your, in your chronology, sir, it's very very brief, the 1 3 April meeting, is it not?--(No Audible Reply)

See the chronology there, page 1 82?--Yes.

And the further entry on page 182, your meeting with the Mayor on 1 8 April, the proposition put to me - see that, if I, if I may paraphrase, please, sir, you found that to be improper and in breach of the Local Government Act and possibly ICAC guidelines. Do you see that?---Yes.

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Yeah. And that was a proposition you say wasn't expressed but rather put to you as something that was implied?---Yeah, I felt, if I may comment, I felt like a gun had been held to my head and somebody said, you can do what you like.

There's no doubt sir, that in your mind, certainly as at the 1 8th, you wanted to send a section 1 1 ICAC notification, did you not?---Yes. I'd discussed it with the Mayor and thought that would be the proper thing to do.

10 Now, the reality is that you relied on Abboud for these communications to you?---Correct.

You relied on his one and a half page possibly A6 notepad recollection of what Abboud said was the proposition being put allegedly by Goubran to him to you?---Correct.

Yeah, which you scanned briefly?---No. When he wrote the email, which I scanned briefly on his notes that he was talking me through in great detail and then when I read them when they arrived they, they agreed with those

20 notes plus the notes I'd personally made in my own diary.

Now, you say that they agreed with his notes that he made and were handwritten you think in black ink. Did you ever get a copy of those? ---Eventually I did.

When was that?---I got a copy from the ICAC.

Not from Mr Abboud himself?---No.

30 And when did the ICAC provide you with those?---Can I answer that?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I don't know. What is the relevance of that?

MR STANTON: The relevance is, ma'am, that this is an allegation against my client- - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

40 MR STANTON: - - -from which its composition and compilation is critical. We've got a timeframe and I don't want to go into it, I'm going to ask some questions about it, that is somewhat leisurely, to say the least, in terms of notification, from the time in April to the time it's made available on 1 1 July, and I'm entitled to test how it is that he puts it all together and where he gets his information from. Now, he said that ICAC provided it to him. There can't be any secret there surely. When did ICAC give it to you is my question. Can you answer that?---Yes, it was in a - may I disclose it, Commissioner?

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ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Are you talking about a compulsory examination?---Yes.

When, when, just the time. We don't care what sort of a thing it was. Do you remember the time?---It was in December, yes.

December?---Last year, 2012.

10 MR ST ANTON: Thank you, Mr Neish. And did you keep a copy of it once shown in that meeting or sorry, in that hearing in December 2012 did you keep a copy of that document?---Yes.

And I take it you've still got possession of it?---Yes.

Right. So you've got the note from Mr Abboud that he showed you in the coffee shop meeting ifl could, ifl could call it that, you've got your notes in your diary you made subsequently?---Yes.

20 And you've then got what Abboud sent you in July 2012 and your notification on 1 1 July?---Y es.

Now, of course you didn't have his handwritten note until after you'd made your notification?---Correct.

That's Abboud's handwritten note. Now, can you - I withdraw that. Surely you must have been somewhat frustrated with Abboud that having communicated to you what you thought was a corrupt overture and you having communicated that to the Mayor as well, this is in April 2012, he

30 took until 9 July to get you the document?---Yes. It was my understanding Mr Abboud was ill at the time and he was also on holidays for some of that time.

40

Okay?---1 did chase him up several times and he, he eventually complied with my request.

And you told him, did you not, in the course of communicating to him that this was a serious matter and you were intending on reporting it to ICAC. Is that the case?---Correct.

And he knew well what you were minded to do with this material once you got it to your satisfaction- - -

MR DOWNING: I object.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, I'm sorry.

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MR ST ANTON: I withdraw that. I put it this way. You had communicated to Mr Abboud that you were going to make a notification to ICAC, did you not?--Correct.

Yeah. And when did you tell him that for the first time?--Ah, Thursday, the 19th.

That's after you met the Mayor on the 1 8th. Is that right?---Sorry, can you just scroll down that - I'm pretty sure it was Thursday, the 19th. Yes, in a

10 phone call to Mr Abboud.

And he said to you as at the 19th he agreed to do so but it may take some time?---Correct.

Did he give, did he give any reason that doesn't appear in your chronology as to why it may take some time?---Ah, no.

Can you recall now what it was that he might have hinted at or implied that might have made it require some time before he could give you the

20 material?---As I said, I believe he was going on holidays so I don't know if that was I his mind when he said that, and then he was ill for a period of time, but he wouldn't have known that back on 19 April.

Mmm, well, yes. In any event, it's another three months effectively, is it not, before you get the material?---April, May and June, yeah, almost three months.

Now, how many times had you met Mr Goubran as at April 2012?---I, I recall meeting him maybe on two occasions prior to that with his sons and -

30 or with one of his sons, and another meeting I met with, I think it was his father.

40

Sorry?---1 think I met with his father.

With Mr Goubran, John Goubran's father?--1 think it was his father.

I see. What was his name?---I can't recall. But they came to see me about a, to, to see if - for some charity work about building a retirement village within Ryde.

Nothing untoward about that?---Nothing untoward.

I fact on any of the occasions Mr Goubran came to you there was nothing untoward in anything he said to you, was there?---No, each meeting was attended and there were notes taken by planners. I never met with a developer by myself.

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So you say that Mr Johnson was open, honest and transparent with the manner in which he dealt with Mr Goubran. Do you remember giving that evidence?---Y es.

In what way was Mr Johnson to your satisfaction open, honest and transparent?---! can give you one example. Mr Goubran had, had purchased some land in Waterloo Road. He purchased it knowing what the zoning was and he purchased it knowing that the site had some restrictions. And Mr Goubran on a number of occasions had tried to get the zoning of that site

10 changed to allow more height and a different development mix on the site. Mr Johnson constantly advised him - and I was there at one meeting and Mr Johnson told me on several other meetings he had he had given them the same story, that the chances of this happening were very, were very low because first we would have had to have done a detailed site analysis of the whole precinct, that the planning instruments, there would have had to have been a planning proposal to have it changed and that because we were doing the new LEP the LEP would have had to have been in place first before these other steps were taken, so he was very open about that and very transparent about that, and very honest in telling him and not giving him any

20 false hopes about that development. Subsequently though there was a notice of motion from the floor of Council suggesting Mr Goubran could draw up his own master plan and present it back to Council for their consideration.

30

But that wasn't referred to ICAC though, was it?---It was later mentioned, yes.

And Mr Goubran in fact reported Mr Johnson to ICAC did he not?---1 don't know.

You don't know. Not to your knowledge?---Not to my knowledge.

I see, okay. In any event your position concerning Mr Abboud wasn't until he had provided you with his report as at the 9 July you couldn't take the matter any further?--! prefer when I provide, when I provide notice to bodies like ICAC that I do so in a way that is verified and I saw Mr, Mr Abboud's notice as an important element of that verification.

And his verification as you term it was unsigned it's an email, it's unsigned 40 is it not?---It had an accompanying email with this name and his company

logo on it.

Yeah. It's not a statutory declaration is it not?---It wasn't a statutory declaration, no.

And it took some three months to get, I know we've been over this already but just finally it took some three months to get out ofhim?---lt took time to have it finalised.

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Yeah. And there were detailed notes at least in a paraphrased format that you saw at your meeting with him you say on 3 April that certainly gave him sufficient ability to, that you scan them and look at them and report to you what occurred then?---Yes, but they, they weren't clear exactly the points on it to a casual observer needed more interpretation than the bullet points. That's why Mr Abboud went to some length to talk me through the issues.

10 And in so far as he spoke to those points and talked you through them as you say he couldn't get them to you in a sufficient format that you could rely upon them in a verified manner until 9 July.

20

30

MR DOWNI NG: I object to that. I'm not sure if that's a question or a submission.

MR ST ANTON: Well it is a question but I 'll withdraw it. I 'll put it this way. In so far as you were spoken to in terms of the detail in the notes on the 13 April, that's what you say do you not by Mr Abboud?--Yes.

Nevertheless you weren't satisfied until 9 July when he sent you the email that you had them in a sufficiently full format with verification as you term it to send them or to rely upon them for the section 11 declaration?---Yes. Once I received them I received them on the Friday, I spent that weekend and the following Monday, Tuesday preparing the section 11 notification. And relying on Mr, sorry and relying on Mr Abboud and only Mr Abboud as to what Mr Goubran had allegedly said and done?---As far as what was what alleged, yes, as far as other matters that were concerned they had to compile and fair bit of other information.

Relying primarily on what Mr Abboud had told you and what appeared in the notes for the matters against Mr Goubran, isn't that the case?---Not entirely, no.

Primarily is what I put to you. Not exclusively primarily. What do you say to that proposition?---Only of the events of our meeting on 13 April.

Nothing further, thank you, Commissioner.

40 ASSI STANT COMMISSI ONER: Thank you. Yes. I f there's nobody else, do you have any re-examination, Mr Downing?

MR DOWNING: Commissioner, could I just ask for a very brief adjournment. There's just one or two matters and I just wanted to speak to those assisting me. I'd only need five minutes.

ASSI STANT COMMISSI ONER: Yes, all right.

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MR CHALMERS: Commissioner, I act for Mr Abboud.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR CHALMERS: I haven't got a copy of Exhibit 2 or the, the chronology and it's a bit difficult to follow from the TV. Could I get copies of those exhibits please?

10 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Chalmers, certainly. We'll see to that. We'll adjourn for five minutes.

SHORT ADJOURNMENT [3.24pm]

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you, please be seated. Yes, Mr Downing.

20 MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr Neish, you were asked some questions by Mr Stanton, counsel for Mr Goubran, about the extent to which you actually saw the notes that Mr Abboud had with him at the meeting you had with him on 13 April, 2012?---Yes.

And you were asked some questions in particular about what they looked like, what colour the writing was and things of that nature. Can I ask you to have a look at a document page 131 of Exhibit 2. Just looking at that

30 document does that appear to be the notes?---Yes.

40

They are, that is the notes that Mr Abboud had with him at the meeting on 13 April?---Yes.

MR STANTON: Commissioner, could I just interject? I hate to do that. I don't have page 131 in my Exhibit 2, I don't know if my learned friends are equally deficient.

MR DOWNING: I'm sorry, I'll have - - -

MR ST ANTON: It just might be me.

MR DOWNING: - - -I'll have copies made for all parties. It'll need to be separately tendered, it must not part of Exhibit 2. We do have copies and we'll make them available.

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10

Also in the course of your evidence, Mr - perhaps - I withdraw that. Commissioner, perhaps for the sake of clarity I'll separately tender that document now, that is page 1 3 1 .

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Those notes will be Exhibit 5.

#EXHIBIT 5 - PAGE 131 - JOURNAL ENTRY OF MR ABBOUD'S DATED 3 APRIL 2012

MR DOWNING: Mr Neish, also in the course of some questions by Mr Stanton you were asked whether you'd made any notes yourself as a result of a meeting with Mr Abboud, do you recall those questions?---Y es.

And you indicated that you made some notes in your diary?---Y es.

Can I ask you to have a look at - perhaps I'll get the court's - just before we do it we do now have the documents to hand up as the exhibit.

20 Commissioner, the documents that I'm tendering at present at the documents that Mr Neish has identified as having seen during that meeting with Mr Abboud. Mr Neish, just looking at the actual itself is that your 2012 diary?---Ah, yes.

30

Can I ask at this point that that the diary be marked for identification, Commissioner?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, that will be MFI 1 .

#MFI 1 - MR NEISH'S 2012 BLACK DIARY

MR DOWNING: And did you - looking at the diary did you make an entry in respect of the meeting you had with Mr Abboud on Saturday, 14 April, 2012?---No, I made it later on Friday the 13th but I had made other notes so I put it on the page Saturday the 14th and referenced it across.

But it was made, the actual writing was put into the diary later on 13 April? 40 ---Yes.

I'll tender that document, it's not part of any of the exhibits at this stage and we'll provide copies to the parties, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: You're tendering the page 14 April?

MR DOWNING: Just the page which is - - -

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10

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR DOWNING: - - - the page which has the date Saturday, 14 April, 2012.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. That will be Exhibit 6.

#EXHIBIT 6 - DIARY NOTES OF MR NEISH FOR SATURDAY, 14th OF APRIL 2012

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Commissioner.

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well, that concludes your examination, Mr Neish and you are now excused, thank you.

20 THE WITNESS EXCUSED [3.35pm]

30

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, do we have another witness for today?

MR DOWNING: I hope we do present in the Commission at the moment, Mr Abboud if he's present.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR CHALMERS: While he's making the long walk to the stand I explained to him section 38 and he wishes to take the objection and he'll take an oath.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: An oath, thank you. Pursuant to section 3 8 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act, I declare that all answers given by this witness and all documents and things produced by him during the course of his evidence at this public inquiry are to be regarded as having been given or produced on objection and there is no need

40 for the witness to make objection in respect of any particular answer given or document or thing produced.

PURSUANT TO SECTION 38 OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION ACT, I DECLARE THAT ALL ANSWERS GIVEN BY THIS WITNESS AND ALL DOCUMENTS AND THINGS PRODUCED BY HIM DURING THE COURSE OF HIS EVIDENCE AT THIS PUBLIC INQUIRY ARE TO

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BE REGARDED AS HAVING BEEN GIVEN OR PRODUCED ON OBJECTION AND THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE WITNESS TO MAKE OBJECTION IN RESPECT OF ANY PARTICULAR ANSWER GIVEN OR DOCUMENT OR TIIlNG PRODUCED.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: The witness will take an oath, thank you.

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10

<TONY CHARBEL ABBOUD, sworn [3.37pm]

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Downing.

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr Abboud, if you state your full name for the Commission please?---Tony Charbel Abboud.

And your date ofbirth?---22nd of the 12th, '56.

And your address?---.............................. .

Now, Mr Abboud, you're a real estate agent?---That's correct.

And is it Snowden Parkes Real Estate that you're a principal of?---That's correct.

20 And that's a real estate agency in Ryde?---Yes, it is.

And for how many years have you worked for that agency?---33 years.

Now you also have an involvement, is it correct, with the Chamber of Commerce?---Yes, I've been the president of the Ryde Macquarie Park Chamber of Commerce since 2010.

And in the course of your work through the real estate agency, sorry, I withdraw that. Are you also a member of the Rotary Club?---Y es, the

30 Rotary Club of Ryde, I've been there since 1986.

40

In the course of your work and also your membership of the Chamber of Commerce and Rotary are you familiar with the members of Ryde Council? ---Yes, I am.

And also the Ryde Council senior staff?---Yes, I am.

You know Mr John Neish, the former General Manager of the Council? ---Yes, I do.

Do you also know the former Mayor Etmekdjian through the Council? ---Through the Council and through the Rotary Club ofRyde and also through the Chamber of Commerce prior to him becoming Mayor.

And are you also as at 2012 and 2013 were you familiar with Councillor Petch?---Y es.

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And for how many years have you know Councillor Petch?--Oh, for many, many years, you know, the last 20 years, 15 years that I've been in real estate and been involved in the local community.

Do you also know John Goubran?---Ah, yes.

And as at 2012, the early part of 2012 you knew Mr Goubran?---1 knew him but I didn't have any sort of contact with him for many, many years but I knew of him and I knew him from when I first started in real estate, he used

10 to do work with my previous employers at that office.

When you say did work with?---Real estate work.

Did you know him as a property developer?---Y es, originally he was a jeweller to my knowledge and then he became a property developer.

Now, in the period 2010 to 2012 were you aware of the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment was that a proposal before Council?---Yes, I was.

20 And had you attended Council meetings on occasions in respect of that matter?---Yes, I had.

And did you have a view yourself about the rights of the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?---Y es. I was always in support of it.

And were there occasions when you spoke in favour of it at Council meetings?---Yes, I spoke on at least two occasions that I could recall in favour of the development.

30 Are we talking about in 2012 or other times?---1 spoke on two occasions in 2012 on the 27 March and on 8 May.

Now do you recall receiving a message on 30 March 2012?---Yes, I received a phone message on Friday 30 March to call John Goubran and the message said "I would know what it was about."

And did you know what it was about at the time?--No, I didn't.

So what did you do?---Well I, I recall I was in the car and I returned the call. 40 The first thing he did was, he was quite upset that apparently he'd left me

several messages and I hadn't returned his call and - - -

Was that something he said to you?--Yes, he did say that. And I said to him well this is the first message I'd got from you and I'm, I'm now returning your call he said he wanted to have a talk to me about a few things and he would prefer that I meet with him and at that time we made a, we agreed that I would meet him on the following Tuesday morning at his offices at around 8 o'clock that morning.

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And did you at that stage have any idea about what it was he wanted to speak to you about?-Not specifically, I assumed it was to do with his various developments - - -

MR STANTON: Commissioner, concerning my client I object. Even though the rules of evidence don't apply these are serious matters. I object to his assumption. Something as serious as this man to the fact - - -

10 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, what, what's the assumption that's - - -

20

MR ST ANTON: Well "Did you know, did you know what he was calling you about? I don't know I assumed."

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Well I think as long as - well, do you have any basis for your belief?---Only that I was aware that he had various developments and that I assumed that he wanted to talk to me about them. That's' what I assumed.

Look I think that's fine. Go ahead?---There was no other reason for him to call me that I was aware of.

MR DOWNING: Sorry, Mr Abboud, so I think you said that you'd then organised for a, during the conversation on the 30 March you organised to meet and when was that meeting for?---It was the following Tuesday morning, I think from memory it was the Tuesday, is it 3 April at 8.00am?

Could I ask you to have a look at a document which I hope is page 139 of 30 Exhibit, sorry I'll stop there.

40

Commissioner, at this stage I'd like to tender a series of documents in respect of Mr Abboud that I expect I'll be taking him to a course of his evidence. I'll hand up the copies. And we do have copies for the parties.

And what I was - ask you to have a look at if we could bring it up on the -well, sorry I'll wait until that's been tendered, Commissioner.

Yes. The bundle of documents in relation to Mr Abboud will be Exhibit 7.

#EXHIBIT 7 - BUNDLE OF DOCUMENTS IN RELATION TO MR ABBOUD

MR DOWNING: What I wanted you to have a look at, Mr Abboud, is page 139 of Exhibit 7. Do you recognise that as a print out of your Outlook calendar?---Yes, it is.

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And do you see an entry there for the 3 April 8 to 9.00am?---Yeah, that was the meeting that was organised.

Now so you attended the meeting on 8 April?---Yes.

Do you recall who was present?--lnitially it was just John Goubran but sometime throughout the meeting I recall his son Simon came into the meeting.

And can you tell us again doing the best that you can using words to the effect of what was said to you by others and what you said what then transpired at the meeting?---Firstly there was discussion about his developments and in particular Eastwood and the - - -

What did he say about the - - -?---He was quite upset with Council, he was very upset with Dominic Johnson and he said after quite a long period of going back and forth with their, with his Development Application regarding his Eastwood site that Council have now referred it to an external

20 assessor and, and he said, he was quite upset about that and he said that they effectively have to start all over again.

Right?---That was the first part of the discussion.

All right. What did he next say?---The discussion then led onto the Civic redevelopment. I was saying to him re-affirming my support of the Civic redevelopment and I was sharing with him how I just been to a Council meeting the previous week.

30 Well how did he raise it, what did he say the Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment?---He - I don't exactly recall how he raised it but it came about that we, we got on from his development and I think it was along the lines of you know if the Civic redevelopment was to go ahead that would set a precedent for other developments to, to go ahead. And I was saying to him that I had attended a Council meeting the week before, I told him how I'd spoken in favour of it, I also told him how in my opinion I was disgusted at the way the treatment that John Neish was getting at that particular Council meeting where the meeting went on for quite a long time and it appeared to me as if John Neish had to answer questions and respond to

40 every minute thing that he'd done as part of this process and I thought he was being treated unfairly.

Did Mr, did Mr Goubran say anything about that?---No, he didn't make any comment one way or the other regarding that.

What was next said?---Well as a result of that discussion he then said to me the real reason he wanted to see me was that he wanted me or was I interested in putting a deal forward to the, to, to Mr Neish and that would

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bring closure to the, the, the deadlock if you like between the six no Councillors and the six yes Councillors, he wanted me to see if I was prepared to take a deal to John Neish.

At that point did you ask him anything about the, the deal and what it was that was being put to you?---Well, well the first two things I said to him I said why me and he said something along the lines that he felt that I might be able to have the ear at both sides of the, the Councillors between the yes and the no Councillors and I thought that was very nice that either he or, or

10 other people out there thought that I might have the ear to, to both sides of the argument. The second thing I, I put to him was what about if this deal that you want me to take to John Neish what about if I don't agree with it because I'd only just finish telling him how I was very much in favour of the redevelopment of the Civic Precinct and at that point he said well he'll get back to me later and let me know the details of the deal.

So at that face to face meeting did he not say anything specific in terms of what the terms of the deal was?---No.

20 Was there any further discussion at that point at the meeting?---No. That was about the, the essence of and then I had to go leave because I had a back up meeting to go to.

30

40

How long do you estimate the meeting went for?---About an hour.

And how much of it do you estimate was taken up with talking about matters like, well the Development Application issue that he raised with you?---The first part about his development? Probably about 20 minutes or so, 25 minutes.

And how long talking about this issue of the deal that might be put to Mr Neish?---Well we, we then spent, spoke for about 10 minutes or so about you know my opinion as to the Council meeting and the mistreatment of John Neish and the fact that I'd spoken in favour of the redevelopment and then it would have been the last 20, 25 minutes or thereabouts that he talked about this supposed deal that he wanted me to take to John Neish.

And you say he indicated to you that he would contact you with the details of the deal later?---Later, yeah.

Now, during this initial meeting did Mr Neish - sorry, I'll withdraw that. Did you make any specific notes during this meeting in the o:ffices?---No.

Do you recall if Mr Goubran in the course of that meeting in asking you to take a deal to Mr Neish, said anything about Mr Neish's employment? ---1 don't recall if it was at that particular meeting or when he called me back that afternoon to actually give me the details of this deal that he wanted to - that he wanted me to take to John Neish.

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Doing your best, what's your recollection as to what he said about Mr Neish's employment?--After he told me what this supposed deal that he wanted me to take to John Neish, he, he, he reaffirmed that if John Neish was to do this his position would be secure, particularly after the, the Council elections in September.

Did he say anything about whether he wanted that to be communicated to Mr Neish?---Well, he didn't say to me specifically whether he wanted me to

10 say that or not but I felt that it would - that's something that John Neish should be aware of.

And you say that you can't recall whether this, this part of the discussion, that is in relation to Mr Neish's employment, was during the first discussion face-to-face in the offices or later?---Y eah. It was that afternoon that he called me back and gave me the specific details of this deal.

But you 're not able to recall now whether the discussion about the employment was during that first meeting or during the telephone

20 conversation?---It, it may have been both, but I can't recall.

And you say that he said something about Mr Neish's employment being secure beyond the upcoming September elections if he were to broker the deal, in effect?---Yes.

Did that strike you as somewhat unusual?---Well, one of the thoughts I had at the time was I don't know -because I wasn't aware of the, the processes as to how that could come about and I didn't know whether he had some power that I wasn't aware or oflike I mean I had a few doubts in my mind

30 as to how could he do that, how could he guarantee someone's position. So I wasn't aware of his influence, power base, whatever.

40

Do you recall whether during that first conversation, that is at the face-to­face meeting, Mr Goubran said anything about whether he was speaking on his own behalf or on behalf of others?---No, he, the implication was that he was, he, he was asked by certain people to ask me to put this deal to John Neish, but he didn't nominate who.

You say that that was the implication?---Mmm.

What led you to form that view?---Well, he actually said, he said, "You know, there are certain people who've asked me to approach you to take a deal to John Neish." Or words to that effect.

Did he say anything to identify who they were or might be?---When he called me back and gave me the details of the deal, that's when he started mentioning names.

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But you say during the first conversation that you had in the face-to-face meeting he indicated then that it was a proposal that he was being asked to put on behalf of others?---Y es.

Now, you say that he told you that he would get back to you later with respect to the details of this proposal or deal?---Y es.

And your meeting, according to your diary, was on the morning of3 April? --Yes.

Can I ask, do you recall later in the day receiving a phone call?---Y es.

Do you recall that there was a series of phone calls where you missed each other before then or whether there was just one phone call where you spoke to him?---1 don't recall, to be honest with you, but I did take a call from him later that afternoon and that's when he put the, this supposed deal to me.

Do you recall - you say later that afternoon that you received a call?---Yes.

20 Did you speak to him for some time?---Yes, it might have been 20 minutes, half an hour, 'cause when he said, "I've got the, I'll tell you what the deal is," I opened my journal and started making notes.

30

That, are you talking about during the phone call?---Yes.

So you didn't make notes during the face-to-face meeting?---No, I made the notes when he rang me and said these, this is the, the deal, because at the morning meeting, the face-to-face meeting, he didn't give me any details of this deal.

Could I ask you to have a look at a document which appears at page 142 of Exhibit 7. Do you see that's a, what appears to be a log of phone calls? ---Sure.

Do you see on 13 April, 2014, there is one at 14.24?---13 April?

13 April from Tony Abboud to John Goubran?---Yes.

And you see there's some earlier calls that would appear from John to you, 40 John Goubran to you on that same day at 14.22?---He rang me that morning

'cause he knew I was meeting with John Neish on Friday the 13.

I'm sorry, I'm dealing with the wrong date, Mr - - -?---Yes.

- - - Mr Abboud. If you could go back to the 3 April?---Y es.

Do you see at, at 4.58, so 16.58.32?---Yes.

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There's a record there of a call from you to Mr Goubran?---Y eah, I may have been returning - - -

Of 1007 seconds?---Sure. Well he must have called me at 16.56 and I must have returned his call at 16.58.

Right. Now can I ask - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr Downing, I should just note that isn't 10 part of Exhibit 7 as far as I can see that page 142?

MR STANTON: Yes. It's not in line with that.

MR DOWNING: I'm sorry I - - -

MR STANTON: It's not in mine, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well anyway people have been able to see it up there on the screen. I don't know whether you need to

20 tender it at some stage. I'm just raising that - - -

MR DOWNING: I'm happy to tender it now, Commissioner, there's no secrecy about it.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. If you have separately. The - - -

MR DOWNING: I'm sorry, I had understood it was part of it.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. Well that list of phone calls will be 30 Exhibit 8.

40

#EXHIBIT 8 - LIST OF PHONE CALLS

MR DOWNING: Well perhaps just in the short time remaining there's just one other matter I'll cover today, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR DOWNING: Could I ask you to have a look at Exhibit 5. Now do you see the document on the screen in front ofyou?---Yes.

And are they the notes that you made during the phone conversation with Mr Goubran on 3 April 2012?---The, the notes on the right-hand side of the page is what I may, they're notes that I made during that phone call. The notes on the right-hand side of the, of the left-hand side of the, left side of

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the page were the notes I made that Friday morning on the 13th before the meeting when John Goubran rang me and - - -

Sorry, just, if I could stop you there. So the page divided in half - - -?---The right-hand side, the right-hand side page are the notes I made when John Goubran called me or when we spoke on the, that afternoon.

Then the left-hand side of the page - - -?---The left-hand side of the page, the bit on the right - - -

Which starts with --- - - -which says "Way out for the Libs, face saving both camps and the four names including mine they were the notes I made that Friday morning before meeting with John Neish as a result of the phone call John Goubran that morning before meeting with John Neish.

So that's on the morning of 13 April - - -?---That's correct.

- - - before meeting with Mr Neish?---Correct. And the bits on the left that headed up Council resolution they were the notes after I met with John

20 Neish on the 13th.

Thank you. Is that a convenient time, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, yes. You'll have to come back again tomorrow morning at 1 0 o'clock. So we will adjourn at this time until 10 o'clock tomorrow morning.

AT 3.59PM THE MATTER WAS ADJOURNED ACCORDINGLY 30 [3.59pm]

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CA VILLPUBOOl 03 1 6/07/2013

CAVILL pp 001 03-00162

COPYRIGHT

PUBLIC HEARING

INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION

THERESA HAMIL TON ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER

PUBLIC HEARING

OPERATION CAVILL

Reference: Operation El2/l 1 9 1

TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS

AT SYDNEY

ON TUESDAY 16 JULY 201 3

AT 1 0.00AM

Any person who publishes any part of this transcript in any way and to any person contrary to a Commission direction against publication commits an offence against section 1 12(2) of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act 1 988.

This transcript has been prepared in accordance with conventions used in the Supreme Court.

1 6/07/2013 El2/1 191

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ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you, please be seated. Yes, Mr Downing - - -

MR CHALMERS: Commissioner - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Oh, Mr Chalmers.

MR CHALMERS: Good morning. Commissioner, I should have before my client started giving evidence yesterday asked for a non-publication order in

10 relation to his address. I note it's not noted in the transcript but I'd just ask for a non-publication order for that and my second application is in relation to the name of his agency which is on the, which is - he's asked on page 94 of the transcript in relation to the name of his agency. It's, it's a professional business where reputation is everything and if there's no reason for its notification and ifthe Commission, ifthe Commissioner changes your view at any time but at this time if there's no relevance and given the type of industry it is and I note that none of the newspapers published it to date - - -

20 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: That's right, Mr Chalmers, I think you should have just said nothing but - - -

MR CHALMERS: Yes.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: - - - now they'll be interested. Look, I'm happy to suppress his private address. I am not willing to suppress the name of his business. I'm sure he's a very well known real estate agent in the area, everyone would know where he works. It was different with Mr Neish because of the nature of the allegations et cetera and his, his new job but I

30 am not willing to suppress the name of where he works but I will suppress his address. Thank you.

THE HOME ADDRESS OF TONY ABBOUD IS SUPPRESSED

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes. Mr Downing.

MR DOWNING: Commissioner, Mr Blackbum is here this morning and 40 perhaps if he could just seek the Commissioner's leave before I resume with

Mr Abboud, he had a brief word with me this morning.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR BLACK.BURN SC: Commissioner, may it please the Commission, I seek leave to appear for Mr Robbie Patterson, that's how he's named in the, in the summons, I think his full name is Robert Patterson with my learned friend Ms Brown.

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ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Blackbum, you're given leave to appear for Mr Patterson.

MR BLACKBURN SC: Thank you. Thank you, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MS P ARMEGIANI: Sorry, Madam Commissioner, Parmegiani. I seek 10 leave to appear for Mr Anthony Stavrinos.

20

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, your name again?

MS P ARMEGIANI: Parmegiani.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Parmegiani. Yes, Ms Parmegiani, you're given leave to appear for Mr Stavrinos.

MS P ARMEGIANI: Thank you.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I think that's you Mr Downing now.

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner.

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<TONY CHARBEL ABBOUD, on former oath [10.05am]

MR DOWNING: Mr Abboud, late yesterday I asked you to have a look at the notes that you'd made which appear at page 131 of Exhibit 5. And you identified the parts that you made at various times. Could I just confirm that with you this moming?---Y es.

Looking at the page on the right hand side the, I think your evidence, and 10 please tell me if this is correct, was the entire right hand side was made

during the call on 3 April, 2012, during a discussion between you and Mr Goubran?---No, the right hand side page was made that afternoon of the 3rd, after I'd met with him.

Sorry, I probably wasn't clear. You'd had a meeting with him face to face in the moming?---In the morning.

And you told me you made no notes then?---That's correct.

20 You then had a phone discussion with him in the aftemoon?---That's correct. And - - -

And is it correct that everything on the right hand side of the page was made during that phone conversation that aftemoon?---That's correct.

Dealing with the left hand side of the page, your evidence yesterday was that parts there were made on two different occasions?---That's correct.

So if we deal with the part closest to the line in the middle of the page and it 30 starts way out for the Libs?---Yes.

Is it correct that that part of the document was made by you on the morning of 13 April, 2012 before you met with Mr Neish?---That's correct.

As a result of a further phone conversation with Mr - - -?---Goubran.

- - - Goubran?---That's correct.

Now can I just check with you what parts - does that cover way out for the 40 Libs and then face saving both camps?---And then the four names.

Four names below it?---Yes.

There are names further down the page?---Yes.

So the names that you've referred to so far are Tony Abboud, Richard Green is it?--Richard Green, George Papallo and Philip Peake.

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20

Now there are names further below, one of them appears to be Terry Perram?---That' s correct.

The next one is not well copied, can you identify - - -?---That's Vic Tagg.

And then below Millie Booth and what's below that?---If you could just scroll up a little, that's Jerome, that refers to Jerome Laxale, who was a prospective Councillor, a Labor Councillor who was going to stand apparently at the forthcoming elections in September of that year.

And then slightly to the left - - -?---Yes.

- - - there are the names Justin?---Yes.

Is that Justin Li, a reference to Justin Li?---That's correct, yes.

lvan?---Yes.

Is that a reference to Mr Petch?---Yes.

And Salvestro-Martin?---That's correct.

Is that a reference to Mr Salvestro-Martin?---Yes.

And then below is the word preferences?---That's correct.

Now these names, and if you need to break them up please do, but when were these names that you've written at the lower part of the left hand side of the page written on to the document?---l'm not sure whether they were

30 written the first time on the Tuesday afternoon or whether they were written on the Friday morning when he called me before speaking to John Neish.

So when you say the first time on that - - -?--Tuesday afternoon.

- - - afternoon, do you mean during the first phone conversation you had on the 3 April?---The phone conversation, that's correct.

Looking at the names - - -?---Yes.

40 - - - Terry Perram has a tick next to it?---Yes.

Vic Tagg has a cross?---Yes.

Looking at those names and the names further down into the left - - -? ---Yes.

- - - and doing your best when do you believe that they were written on to the document?---As I say they were either written that Tuesday afternoon

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when he rang me to, to tell me the details of this deal or they were written on the Friday morning. But I, I dare say they were written on the Tuesday afternoon.

Is that all of them or some of the names that are down at the bottom of the page to the left of the centre?---No, that was all written at the one time.

All right. So those parts at the bottom of the page to the left of the centre, you believe the names were written either during the first conversation on

10 the afternoon of3 April?---That's correct.

Or possibly on the 1 3 April during that conversation before you met with Mr Neish?---That's correct.

When you had a further telephone conversation with Mr, Mr Goubran? ---With Mr Goubran, yes.

And then to the left under "Council Resolution" and the, appears four lines that follow from there, your evidence yesterday was they were things that

20 you'd added to the document after you met with Mr Neish - - -?---That's correct.

- - - on 13 April - - -?---That's correct.

- - - 2012?---Because when I was speaking to Mr Neish at that meeting on the 13th I had my journal opened and I actually showed him all my notes.

Did you take these note along with you as an aid for the purposes of that meeting?---No, no. I permanently carry a journal with me, that was part of

30 my journal, notes in my journal and I just showed him the, the relevant pages in my journal.

Well I asked you yesterday and you gave some evidence about the initial discussions you had with Mr Goubran when you met with him in his office on the morning of the 3 April?---Yes.

And you've confinned now that the notes on the right-hand side of this page reflected a later telephone conversation you had?---That's correct.

40 Doing your best now by reference to what you can recall and what you recorded at the time can you take us through what was said by Mr Goubran and what you said during that telephone conversation?---The phone conversation?

On the afternoon of the 3 April, 2012?---Well he, he said to me that he was going to give me the details of this deal that he wanted me to take to John Neish and he effectively said and I started making notes as he was speaking that he - - -

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So, so these notes were written up as you were on the phone?---Yes, yes.

So were you on speakerphone so that you were able to make notes or - - -? --Oh, no, it was just on the phone. He said that he wanted John Neish to form a review board to address community concerns about the redevelopment of the Civic Precinct, he wanted a committee to be formed, it would, it would run for six months and it would continue on till after the September Council elections in September of that year, there were to be four

10 Councillors on the committee, John Neish was to nominate the terms of reference of that committee, the four Councillors were to be Roy Maggio and Sarkis Y edelian and he said plus two others but at the time he said not Petch. Then he also said that he wanted the, the Manager for Planning, Dominic Johnson to be - - -

Can I, can I just stop you before you go on from there?---Yes.

Around "not Petch" you've got brackets and a tick?---Yes.

20 Was that written at the time you first wrote these notes up or later?---No. The tick was on the Friday morning when he changed his mind when he called me prior to actually meeting with - - -

That's on 13 April?---On 13 April.

So that part of the note the brackets and the tick were added at that time? ---Well not the bracket the bracket was, not Petch in brackets, that was the initial conversation on the Tuesday afternoon but on the Friday morning he then as part of the variations to the deal that he wanted me to put to John

30 Neish he said that he now wanted Petch and he wanted Jeff Salvestro­Martin to be part of the committee.

So at the end of that line where it appears to be the word Jeff - - -?---Yes.

- - - that you've written, is that something you also added during the conversation with Mr Goubran on the morning - - -?---Yeah.

- - - of the 13�---That, that tick and the word Jeff would have been what I would have written on the Friday morning prior to the meeting with John

40 Neish. Because that was a variation to the deal that was, that was made on that Friday morning before I met to, with John Neish.

All right. Well if we go back then to, to what you can tell us about the discussion you had with Mr Goubran on the afternoon of 3 April you're up to Manager or Planning in - - -?--Yeah. He wanted the Manager of Planning, Dominic Johnson, he wanted the Community Manager I wrote woman, at that stage I wasn't fully au fait with Danielle Dickson but it was

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Danielle Dickson who he was referring to, that's why I wrote down the name Danielle.

Y eah?---He then said he wanted four members of the public from the groups opposing the Civic Precinct. Now, at that stage I said to him, "It sounds like you're forming a committee supporting or, or working towards opposing the Civic Precinct," and at that stage he said to me, "Well you know let John choose who the committee members are," or words to that effect. He then went on to say that the findings of the committee would be delivered after

10 the Council elections in September of that year, he said that it would be accepted by the incoming Council.

That is the findings would be accepted?-Yes, yes.

He told you this during the conversation?---That's correct, and that the decision will be to go ahead. Now at that stage - - -

What, to go ahead with the Ryde Civic - - - -?---With the redevelopment of the Civic Centre. Now at that stage I queried him, I said so you're saying to

20 me that the committee will actually say to go ahead and he said yes and that was inconsistent with him wanting four people on the committee who were from the no camp.

30

40

When you say four people are you referring to members of the public? ---Yeah, well, if you go, if you - yeah, where it says four members of the public from groups opposing the Civic Precinct so I couldn't correlate how he could warrant four members opposing the Civic Precinct yet he then said to me the decision will be to go head. So - and I queried that. I queried that. He then went on to say the other things that they want - - -

Well, can I just stop you there. When you queried him about the decision that the committee would make and it being accepted by the Council did he, what did he say?---He just confirmed that that would be the case. And when I, previously when I queried him about the four members of the public from the groups opposing the Civic Precinct that's when he turned around and said well, John can choose who's on the committee. Then he went on and he said there's a couple of other things, he said there's to be a strong push to expedite DA applications in the Council. He then said he wanted me to slow down my attack on Ivan Petch.

Just before we go to that point?---Ah hmm.

A strong push to expedite DA applications. Did he say whether that was generally or his DAs or - - -?---He said it generally.

Did you query him about that?---1 didn't query him but I, I started to get a sense of why this was all being said.

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Okay. Sorry, continue. He wanted me to slow down my attack on Ivan Petch. Now I took that to be - because if you recall he called me on Friday the 30th. I had just on Tuesdays the 27th spoken at the Council meeting - - -

That's of March?---OfMarch. I had just on the Tuesday the 27th had spoken at a Council meeting and there was a paragraph in my talk where I was, I was quite opposing Ivan in what he was doing with respect to the Civic Precinct redevelopment so I assumed that that was in relation to that.

10 Right?---Then he said something which I didn't understand but I wrote it down anyway, it said, "JD deliver preferences either way".

J, sorry, is it JG?---JG sorry, yeah, JG.

That's Mr Goubran?---Yes. "Deal on preferences, phone call from Macquarie Street." Now, I just made those notes as he spoke, I didn't know what that meant, I just - - -

Well, doing you best what words did he actually speak to you or words to 20 the effect of what he said?---He said that he would deliver preferences either

way, I genuinely didn't know what that meant because I don't understand the political process of preferences. He said that there would be a deal done on preferences and that he'd received a phone call from Macquarie Street asking him to make this thing happen.

That is what, the deal ?---Yeah. And at the time my personal thoughts process was he must have some sort of political power that I'm unaware of or whatever. I just made those notes as he spoke.

30 All right?---Then the last point there I, I don't actually recall. He said something along, he mentioned a person called Errol who was an assessor who was a friend of John Neish. I don't know why he made those comments, I don't - or why he mentioned that person, I don't recall but he said that and, and I wrote those notes down but I don't recall the relevance of that point.

And is that the, is there anything else you can recall about what he said during that phone call in the afternoon?---No, if- the discussion on the bottom left-hand side about mentioning names, I think that was in

40 relationship to where he started talking about preferences and a deal on preferences. He, he seemed to have an opinion that Terry Perram was going to get back in, that's why I put a tick there. He, he was of the opinion that Vic Tagg wouldn't get back in, that's why I put a cross there. He mentioned that Justin, Ivan and Salvestro-Martin were going to be fine. He mentioned a lady called Millie Booth. Now, at the time Millie Booth was a lady who was - I think she was a member of the Liberal side and there was rumours in the community that she was going to stand for Council in September of that year and then said Jerome, which refers to Jerome Laxale, who's a Labor

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candidate who subsequently did stand for election in September of that year and then did get elected.

These names of the, the Councillors and people like Millie Booth - - -? --Yes.

- - - is it, is the case that you've recorded them to reflect something that Mr Goubran said to you about members of this committee?---When he mentioned names I just wrote them down.

But are you able to recall what these names that you've recorded at the bottom of the page to the left, what context they were mentioned in?---In the context that I just mentioned, he was basically telling me who in his opinion was going to get re-elected and not get re-elected.

You've told us that, that one of the things that he told you during this phone call on the afternoon of 3 April - - -?---Yeah.

- - - was that certain Councillors would be on this committee and that you 20 mentioned Roy Maggio, Sarkis Y edelian and two others, not Petch?--­

That' s all he said as far as that committee was concerned.

And you've told us that there was a later conversation where he indicated a change in respect of Councillor Petch?---That was on Friday morning the 13th before I met with John Neish.

Now on the left, on the left-hand side of the page you've got the names Justin, Ivan, Salvestro-Martin, that's towards the bottom?---Yes.

30 Are you able to say whether that was, looking at the document now and in light of what you've told us about the initial information Mr Goubran gave you about whether Councillor Petch would be part of this committee, are

you able to say whether those names Justin, Ivan and Salvestro-Martin were names given to you later in, in respect of the proposed committee?---No, that was in term, that discussion there in my recollection was to do with who was going to get re-elected after September that wasn't in relationship to the committee.

But you say there was a later discussion on the morning of the 13th - - -? 40 ---On the 13th, that's correct.

- - - when Mr Goubran said to you now that there was a change in terms of who would be on the committee?---Yes. He said there were some changes that he wanted me to, to take to John Neish. He first called me to confirm that I was still meeting John Neish that morning and then he said there's a couple of changes to this deal that he wants me to put.

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And in terms of the membership what did he say as to the changes when you spoke to him on the 13th?---Well what he said if we can scroll down a little bit where I made notes he said now they want Roy, Sarkis and Ivan Petch and Jeff Salvestro-Martin to be on the committee and I said to him I thought you said Ivan doesn't want to be on the committee and he said well he's changed his mind. Then he said as far as the four members of the public he said they want myself, Richard Greene who's a, the head of a, the C3 Christian Church in the local community, George Papallo who's ex-district governor of Rotary and he was head of the Macquarie Community College,

1 0 and a Philip Peake. Now I don't know Philip Peake and didn't know him at the time but I know of him now and he was one of the people who was opposed to the Civic Precinct redevelopment. And then he said to me several things, he said, "This will be a way out for the Libs and it'll be face saving for both camps," and then he said to me, and he said, "And Artin supports this." Now, Artin at the time was the Mayor.

That's Artin Etmekdjian?---That's correct. Now, that struck me as strange because if Artin supported it, it wouldn't have even got to this point because the Councillors would have come up with some resolution among

20 themselves. So that struck me as strange.

In terms of the timing of the phone call that you're describing on the morning of 13 April before you met with John Neish, could I ask you to look at Exhibit 8 which is the log of phone calls, on page 142. Do you see on that document there are some phone calls between, well, one from, on 1 3 April at 8 . 1 8 from John Goubran to you of- - -?---Yes.

- - - 36 seconds?---Yes.

30 Then one at 8.21 of, from you to John Goubran of 1 1 2 seconds?---Yeah.

Does that assist you at all in recalling who called who and when you discussed it?---Well he called me as I was in the car park, at the back of the car park in the office, approaching the office and I said to him can I call you back when I get back in, well when I get into the office. So I called him back.

Is there anything else that you discussed with him in that phone call? You've told us certain things already on the basis ofl take it your

40 recollection of what's in your note. Is there anything else that was discussed during that phone call?--No, no, other than either I'd ring him or he'd ring me after we, after I'd met with John Neish or something to that effect.

Can I ask you after that initial, well after the face to face meeting with Mr Goubran, the later phone call on 3 April and now this phone call on the morning of 13 April, what was your view on the deal that you were being

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asked to put to Mr Neish?---Well I certainly didn't agree with it and I certainly didn't support it.

You told us yesterday that one of the things that Mr Goubran indicated to you in the course of the discussions was that Mr Neish's job would be safe beyond the election if, if you were to go along with the deal. Do you recall giving that evidence yesterday?--Yes.

And please correct me if this is not right, I think you said you weren't sure 1 0 whether that was discussed in the first face to face meeting or later on the

phone?--That's right.

Just looking at the notes that you made at the time and when you were speaking to Mr Goubran on the phone, that is on the afternoon, you took fairly detailed notes. Doing your best if he'd mentioned that then, that is the issue about John Neish's employment and whether it would be secure, would that be something you would have written down?---lf it was something that was direct I would have probably written it down, but as I said previously, it wasn't a direct threat, it was an implied threat because the

20 comment was you know if he does this, you know, his position would be secure after the September elections.

All right. Now you told us yesterday in your evidence that, and this is at transcript 99 at about line 41, I asked you a question about whether during the first conversation, as the face to face conversation Mr Goubran said anything about whether he was speaking on his own behalf or on behalf of others and you said the implication was that he was asked by certain people to put this deal to John Neish, but he didn't nominate who?---No.

30 You also - I asked you what led you to form that view and you said, "Well he actually said you know there are certain people who have asked me to approach you to take a deal to John Neish" or words to that effect. Can I ask you, by reference to the names of the Councillors that Mr Goubran provided to you during the first conversation face to face and then during the later conversations on the phone, that led you to form a view about who was being asked to - who he was referring to when he said, "there are certain people have asked me to approach you"?---Absolutely because particularly when he said, ''the committee is to be made up of people opposing the redevelopment". He was obviously not asking me to take

40 something to Council or to John Neish rather on behalf of the people supporting the redevelopment, particularly when he said, "it's a face saver, a way out for the Libs and a face saver for both camps."

And you've indicated that he told you during the later conversation on the morning of the 13th that, that Mr Petch had changed his mind about membership of the committee?---Yes. At that, at that morning phone call he said that it was, the committee was now to be made up of the four

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Councillors, Roy Maggio, Sarkis Yedelian and now Ivan Petch and Jeff Salvestro-Martin.

Now on 1 1 April, I'll withdraw that. I'm sorry, on 13 April after having that discussion in the morning with Mr Goubran, you had the meeting with Mr Neish?---That's correct.

And can I ask you to have a look at page 140 of Exhibit 7. That's, is that, do you recognise that as a page from your Outlook diary?---That's correct.

Now in the entry for the 13th there's a - well, in the day the 13th there's an entry, it would seem at 1 1 o'clock which reads "Coffee John Neish, Cafe Alvero?---That' s correct.

Melissa Gennusa?---Y eah, she's my secretary who, who put the, the appointment into my diary.

So the appointment was to meet Mr Neish at 1 1 .00 at that cafe?---That's correct.

Now can you then take us through that meeting in terms of what was said by you, what was said by Mr Neish and can I start with roughly how long did the meeting go for?---It went for about an hour and - - -

So if you start at the beginning of it please?---Sure. I basically said to him that I'd received a call from John Goubran and he wanted me to put some sort of deal to you. I opened up my journal, I turned around and I said to him that I'd made some notes. I was quite up front with him in saying look, I don't actually agree with this stuff but I thought it's important that you

30 should know about it. I actually showed him my journal and showed him my notes and I basically went through it point by point, in the same way I just did now and when we went through it he, first he was a bit amused at the fact that someone would bring this sort of deal to him. He, he pretty well straightaway reiterated to me that he was just doing his job under a previous Council resolution and the Council resolution of the day was that he was to deliver this project by August of that year and that if these Councillors or the Council wanted him to do something different he doesn't have the power to do anything along this deal that, that was presented to them. If their Council wanted him to do anything different they would have

40 to do it through a Council resolution and he said in his position as a General Manager his role is to act under whatever Council resolution is of the day, that's what he was doing at that point in time but ifthe Councillors wanted him to stop doing that and do something different they would have to go through the due process and do it through a Council resolution.

So you said that you took him through the points in your notes. Did you say anything to him about what Mr Goubran said to you about Mr Neish's employment?---Oh, yes, you know.

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Well, again, try and use the words or words to the effect ofl---Y eah, I said to him, I said, you know, this is what they want you to do and then he, and, and I said to him, and I said, you know, there was an implication there that if you do that your, your job would be secure after the elections. And he said to me, "Is that what they said?" And I said, "Well, that's what they implied."

Well, thinking back, wasn't your evidence yesterday that they were words to 1 0 the effect of what Mr Goubran said?---Yes.

That, that he said words to you to the effect of John Neish's employment will be secure beyond the election if he goes along with this?---Yes, he said words to that effect.

And you conveyed that to Mr Neish?---Y es, and Mr Neish once I conveyed that to him after he explained to me that he can't do this sort of thing, it has to be done through a Council resolution and his job, his duty is to act under whatever resolution is of the day, he, he was quite concerned that, you

20 know, this - a comment was made about his job security.

Did he express any concern during your meeting?---Y es, he did.

Did you say anything to Mr Neish about who you understood the deal was ultimately being put on behalf ofl---Well, it was obvious after the phone call from that morning.

Well, I understand you saying it was obvious but what I'm asking you is whether you said anything to Mr Neish about who you - - -?---Yes, I did, I

30 said obviously this is a deal that's, that's coming from the, the no camp, the no Councillors, you know which is, at the time was led by Ivan Petch, Salvestro-Martin and Justin Li.

All right. Was there anything else that you said to him during the meeting, you've told us you ran through the points in your notes, you told him about the discussion you'd had with Mr Goubran about Mr Neish's employment, you said something to him about who you understood the deal was coming from. Can you recall anything else that you said to Mr Neish or that he said to you?---I also mentioned the point about they wanted the DAs expedited

40 through Council and John said to me, "Oh, we've already done that, you know," and he went on to explain how through the establishment of the new business centre they're getting really good customer service, the time to approve DAs and he went on through the due process so we were talking, you know, Council stuff so to speak. So his attitude was they've already improved their process of expediting DAs through Council.

All right. Anything else that you said to him or he said to you, you can recall during that meeting?---Not that I can recall.

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All right?---1 just went through the notes in the, in my journal.

After that meeting did you have any further communications with Mr Goubran?---1 don't recall whether he rang me that afternoon or I rang him but there was a period there where he kept chasing me to find out what, what's happened you know, what happened you know what happened, what was the response from John Neish. When I did ultimately speak to him I effectively conveyed to John Goubran exactly what John Neish had said to

1 0 me - - -

So did you recount in detail the conversation you'd had?---No, no, it was just basically in summary and the summary in effect was he can't do this, he can't form this sort of committee it's not within his jurisdiction and effectively he's just acting on a Council resolution and if the Councillors want to change that they would have to enact a new resolution which, and his role as General Manager he'd be obliged to follow.

And do you recall what Mr Goubran's response was to that conversation? 20 ---Oh, he said something to the effect ofl'll get back to you.

Well you say you finished that conversation by saying I'll get back to you. Did he then subsequently speak to you about it?---Y eah. I think from memory we had two or three discussions and I think he was asking me you know has anything happened with it and I said look I told you what John Neish said and then somewhere further on he wanted me to put the same proposition to Artin who was the Mayor. Now again I thought well hold on you know on the 13th you told me that Artin supports this now you want me to put the deal to Artin, so that struck me as strange. Subsequently I did

30 meet with Artin, I did reaffirm you know what I told John Neish.

So did you convey to Mr Etrnekdjian the then Mayor the nature of the deal that had been proposed - - -?---That I - - -

- - - by Mr Goubran?---And that, and that I put it to John Neish and I told Artin exactly what John Neish's response was that you know he can't do this sort of thing and it has to be done through a Council resolution and Artin agreed with me that that was the correct response.

40 Did he say anything else?---Who's that?

Artin Etmekdjian the Mayor?---No. After that from my point of view the matter was just closed until such time as a watered down version of this supposed deal was in fact put up as a resolution which was to be heard on the 8 ofMay. And on 8 May that was at a Council meeting?---That's correct.

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And were you present at that meeting?--Y es, I did, I was and I spoke against the resolution.

And if you have a look at pages 132 to 133 Exhibit 7. Is that something that you read out or as a note or something that you - - -?---They were, they were my notes and that's what I read out at that Council meeting.

And I can ask you was it your view that or your concern that what was effectively being sought through this committee was just to put the Ryde

10 Civic Precinct redevelopment on hold?---Y es, yes. And I said that in, in, in my speech on, on the 8 May. You know, I said that it was, it was a resolution that you know was, was trying to slow things down and it wasn't in the best interests of the community as I saw it.

Now do you recall - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Sorry, Mr Downing, I don't think that is part of Exhibit 7. Is that what you 3 - - -

20 MR DOWNING: I do apologies I, I'll have it separately tendered. I had thought that was included and I apologise for that. Yeah. If we can tender just the copy now we'll make copies available to the parties and I do apologise for the inconvenience, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, that copy of Mr Abboud's notes will be Exhibit 9.

#EXHIBIT 9 - COPY OF MR ABBOUD'S NOTES RE RYDE 30 COUNCIL MEETING 8m MAY 2012

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner. Do you recall whether after the meeting you had with Mr Neish on 13 April, 2012 he asked you to provide an account of your dealings with Mr Goubran?---Yes.

Do you recall when, when that was? Whether it was on one occasion or more?---He called me on several occasions and at the - during that period I was away a couple of times interstate I was going through a period of illness

40 and I, I was quite apologetic, that I would get to him and get it to him and the only reason it took so long to get to him is because as I say I was away on several occasions and I was going through a bit of illness at that time and trying to run a business.

If l could ask you to have a look at Exhibit 2, pages 134 to 138. Do you recognise that as your email to Mr Neish of 6 July, 2012?---Yes, yes I do.

And is that when you sent him your notes?---Y es.

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And at 1 3 6 to 1 3 8 are they the notes you prepared?---Yes, I sent it as an attachment.

And were they prepared based in part on the notes you made in your diary? --Yes.

And in part on your recollection of what you - - -?---Correct.

- - - what had occurred at the meetings?--Yes.

Thank you, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Is there an application to cross-examine this witness?

MR STANTON: Yes, there is Commissioner. Stanton for - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Stanton.

20 MR STANTON: - - - Mr Goubran.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR ST ANTON: Thank you. Mr Abboud, you've been a real estate agent for how long, sir?---33 years.

And it's your practice I take it to keep a journal from time to time?---Y es.

And as a real estate agent, sir, with inquiries and the need to keep 30 information handy for yourself - - -?---Yes.

40

- - - a diary obviously to you is the most efficacious way of doing it?---Well for my appointments, yes.

Yes. And for meetings and records of meetings in part, that's one way of compiling it?---No, my diary is just a record of my appointments.

Certainly - - -?---I keep, I keep records of any meetings that I have in my journals.

Okay. So certainly the document that you made the notes on at the meeting with Mr Goubran you say during the phone call was a journal entry - - -? ---Yes.

- - - in respect of a phone call that you had I suppose a phone meeting with Mr Goubran on that 13 April afternoon?---No, no on 4 April, Tuesday, the 4th_

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And certainly sir, the journal entry that you've got whilst we've been given a photocopy of it, it's written in pencil is it not?---That's correct.

Whereas other entries in the journal possibly may be in biro might they? --No.

Not at all?---Every one of my journal entries is in pencil.

I see. Is there a reason for that?---I've been 'Writing in pencil since I was a 10 child.

Now do you have, I'll just ask you this if l may please sir, we'll start with this, you've known Mr Goubran I think for some time have you not?---Y es.

You met him 30 years ago would it be fair to say, from 2012 when you, he came to him as a customer for a diamond ring?---That's correct.

I think you were getting married at the time?---That's right.

20 An engagement ring. You then had some social contact with him for a short while which ceased?---That's correct.

You then renewed contact when you met him in the Ryde Shopping Centre approxlinately two years before the events of2012. Isn't that the case? ---Yeah, we've bumped into each other on various occasions in the last three or four years at Chamber functions.

In fact it might have been 2011 , to just put it a bit more accurately if I may. And I think as a result of that contact you invited him to a Liberal Party

30 fundraiser for Mr Alexander?---Yeah, I, I've been to a Liberal Party fundraiser and a Labor Party fundraiser and if you say it was the Liberal one that John Goubran came to then that would be correct.

40

Well I'll just ask you the question, see if you can answer only the question if you may. You invited him to a Liberal Party fundraiser for Mr John Alexander, the member for Bennelong. Do you recall that?---Yes.

And do you recall that in the course of that fundraiser he purchased a cricket bat?---No, I don't.

Okay. In any event, sir, you say that the matters concerning yourself and Mr Goubran, in terms of this redevelopment, came to a crescendo on 30 March, or started I should say when phone calls were received by you from Mr Goubran. Is that right?---Well I received a phone call from him on Friday, 30 March which I returned.

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And I take it sir that he approaching you about this matter was something that you were concerned about because you had a particular view about the redevelopment project did you not?--Which matter are you referring to?

When Mr Goubran approached you on 30 March to meet with you - - -? ---He said he wanted to see me, but he didn't tell me what he wanted to see me about.

But certainly subsequently when you ascertained what it was about - - -? 1 0 ---Yes.

- - - it was a matter ie the redevelopment project that you had a particular interest in did you not?---No, the initial part of the discussion was a discussion about his developments and the problems he was having with Ryde Council.

My question to you sir was when he referred to the redevelopment project, and I'll make it a bit more explicit, the Ryde Civic Centre redevelopment project, does that make it clearer in your mind, sir?--Yeah, when he

20 referred to that, he referred to it on the basis that he wanted to me to broker a deal on behalf of certain parties and he wanted me to take something for John Neish.

Now I'll ask my question again ifl may, when he mentioned the Ryde Civic Centre redevelopment project - - -?---Yes.

- - - that was a matter, and this is my question, it has been for some time, see if you can answer it, that you had a particular interest in that redevelopment project did you not?---My interest was that I was in support of the

30 redevelopment of the Civic interest, I didn't have a personal interest.

40

I didn't ask you that, I said you had an interest in it sir, did you not?---1 had an interest in seeing that it would be, well I put forward my view that I was of the opinion that it should be redeveloped.

And in so far as it was your view - - -?---Yes.

- - - as a civic minded resident or sorry, business person in the area were you not?--Yes.

You had a particular bias did you not? You wanted it to go ahead?---Y es.

And you were very passionate about it to the point of making speeches in Council?---That's correct.

Speeches that were unequivocally in favour of it were they not?---Yes.

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And effectively denouncing those who sought to oppose it without any proper objective in mind from your perception. Isn't that the case?---l'm sorry I don't understand the question.

Mr Abboud, you were minded to oppose anyone who sought to stop the project unless they had a clearly good objective reason for that opposition. Was that not your stand?--Every time I spoke in favour of the project I put forward my reason why I supported it.

1 0 And you never wavered from that did you sir?---No.

And you were adamant that this project should succeed were you not? --Yes.

And you would lend your support on a voluntary basis to make sure it did. Isn't that the case?---The, the process was going forward and it was assessed independently and I was originally involved in a community consultation process that was putting down the parameters as to how the process was to be assessed. I, I did that and then it was, it was taken offiine and it was, the

20 whole process was being assessed independently. As the President of the Ryde Macquarie Park Chamber of Commerce and on behalf of the local businesses I had a role to play and on behalf of the local business community and the community at large I was in support of the redevelopment of the Civic precinct.

30

40

My question yet again sir, if you could answer it, is that - - -

MR CHALMERS: I'd object to the badgery.

MR STANTON: Badgery?

MR CHALMERS: Yes.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: There has been a little sarcasm Mr Stanton in your questioning.

MR ST ANTON: Well sarcasm is not badgering with respect, Commissioner. And in terms of responsiveness - - -

MR DOWNING: Commissioner, I object on a different basis.

MR ST ANTON: If Mr Downing would let me finish.

MR DOWNING: I object on a different basis.

MR STANTON: I'm responding to - he's objecting.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

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MR STANTON: Belatedly, but nevertheless he's objecting. Okay. Right. We will handle that - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Well could I just hear the basis of the objection.

MR STANTON: Okay.

MR DOWNING: Commissioner, this is descending into a political stoush 1 0 over the precinct, Ryde Civic Precinct redevelopment that this Commission

should not engage in. My friend is perfectly entitled to ask the witness matters testing the version of events, presumably on instructions from Mr Goubran, but demonstrating his views one way or the other in favour or not in favour of the project doesn't really assist the Commission.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr Stanton, it's a long way from supporting the project to having a personal animus against those who oppose it which is I think the point you are trying to put to the witness and trying to get him to agree with but I don't agree that one follows the other

20 necessarily and I think if you have instructions on specific points you need to put it to him specifically.

MR STANTON: All right, ma'am. Well, I'll approach it from another angle.

Now, certainly, Mr Abboud, when you spoke to Mr Goubran in those conversations that you had with him you were concerned that this overture by him for this attempt to have a committee set up would in some way stall the implementation of the project, were you not?---If, if this thing had gone

30 through yes, it would have stalled the project.

40

And you were concerned to obviously put this proposition to Mr Neish, were you not, but with your particular bias in place?---Yes, I, I told John Neish that, I said I don't agree with what has been put forward but, you know, I, I thought it's important that you be aware of it.

And you were, I suggest to you, sir, a man of careful habit when recording notes that you recorded every note that was salient if not utterly relevant to what was being discussed?---Well, I recorded most notes.

But is it, is it your habit, sir, when you record conversations of critical importance - I withdraw that. Did you regard the conversations with Goubran concerning this development project as critical?---Well, yes, that's why I made notes.

Yes, that's right. And - - -?---Because I, I needed to write down the points of this supposed deal so I could recall the points that I could, if I was to go to John Neish so that I knew what to, what the points were.

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Yeah, you wanted to give him all of the points - - -?---Yeah.

- - - for the deal as you say - - -?---Yes.

- - - and you took the task of writing them down?---That's correct.

Yeah. And if we go to Exhibit 8, might you be shown that please, sir. Do you see that this is a compilation of a phone log for various numbers but in

1 0 particular your phone calls between yourself and Mr Goubran, you see that? --That's correct.

20

30

40

Now, right at the very top, sir, there's a call on 13 March, 2012 from Tony Abboud to Mr Goubran, do you see that?---That's correct.

And then there's another call on the same date from you to Mr Goubran yet again, is that - see that?---Yes.

How do you account for those two calls, sir?--1 think the line dropped out.

Okay. Have you got a clear recollection ofthat?---No, I don't but - - -

Okay?--- - - - I recall returning his call while, while I was in the car that afternoon.

Then you come down to the seventh call, sir, it's the second one under 3 April, sony, the first one, my apologies - it's the fourth call, in fact it's the sixth call, I'm sony, sir, against 3 April at 16.46, do you see that?---That's the afternoon?

Yeah, that's a call that you instigated - - -?---Yes.

- - - to Mr Goubran, you see that?---Yes.

However, prior to that there was a call on the 3rd at 13.39 from Mr Goubran to you, you see that?---Yes.

Now what became of that call, sir?---From my recollection that was him following me up. Oh, the, the call on the Tuesday afternoon?

3 April, sir?--That's at 1.39?

Yes?---Yeah, he's probably called me after the face to face meeting that mormng.

Right?---And it was only a short call, I may have been caught up at the time and said I'll call you back or some, some words to that effect, I don't recall.

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But it was later that afternoon that I had a long call with him where he outlined the deal or the points of this deal.

You outlined the deal?---No, he did.

I thought you said I outlined the deal?---No, no, I apologise, he outlined the deal.

I'm just, I'm just taking what you said, sir, you see?--Yes, well, he outlined 1 0 the deal, I, I have no idea what this deal was.

Yeah. And that call at 16.46 was a call, sir, that was instigated by you to Mr Goubran, was it not?---Yes, I was probably returning his call from earlier in the day.

Now was it that call, sir, that the deal was outlined?---No, I, I don't recall which of those calls it was that the deal was outlined.

But you see, sir, the next two calls on 3 April are to Mr Neish and there are 20 SMSs there, you see that?---On the - - -

30

3 April?---3 April, yes.

I think they're the seventh and eighth calls as they come down that column? ---Yes.

And they're originating SMS ?---Yes.

From Tony Abboud to John Neish, you see that?---Yes.

What were those SMSs?---Probably something along the lines of I've, I've received a call and someone wants me to take something to you, can you call me or something or words to that effect. So after I received the details of this deal from John Goubran obviously if my intent was to follow through and take the deal to John Neish then maybe I sent him some text messages and said, you know, can you call me or whatever.

Can you be any more precise than maybe?---Well, no.

40 Can you be any more precise than - - -?---That's, that's all I can recall as to why I would have sent a text to John Neish.

I see?--Because the, the objective of the approach from John Goubran was that he wanted me to speak to John Neish.

And then, sir, we have another call from Goubran to you on 3 April 16.56, you see that?--Yes.

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What was that call about?--Well, again, that's, that was the Tuesday afternoon when he rang me to start telling me the details of the deal.

I see. So you've sent Neish an SMS to tell him about the deal that hadn't been communicated - - -?--No, no, I sent Neish a message that I'd been approached by John Goubran, right, or I'd been approached by someone, right, who wanted me to talk to you, can you please call me. That's the best of my recollection.

1 0 I see. That's the best of your recollection?---That's correct.

Yeah. Nowhere in your evidence here today or yesterday did you give Mr Downing an indication that the chain of communication was apart from Goubran and yourself on 3 April that you'd put Mr Neish on alert, albeit by SMS, that someone was offering a deal?---Yes, but when I sent that to John Neish if, if, ifl had been called by John Goubran and he said to me he wants me to take a deal to John Neish I didn't know the details of the deal at the time. Now I may have as part of normal protocol practice sent a message to John Neish and said, you know, can you call me or I need to call, I need to

20 speak to you about something.

Have you been asked to retrieve the SMSs that you sent?---No.

Do you recall what they were in terms of the wording that you composed? ---No, I don't.

Not at all?---No.

And there are two of them are there not, as, as indicated by Exhibit 8? 30 ---Yes.

40

One at 16.51 and 16.5 1 . 12, do you see that?---Yes, yes.

Either of those, do you recall what they were?---No, I don't.

At all?---No.

But you say it was to alert John Neish that a deal was coming?---Well, it was either to alert him or to ask him to give me a call.

I see. Well, did he call you ifthat was one of the objects of the SMS?---1 don't recall, I don't recall speaking to him that day.

Then we've got the call on 3 April at 16.56, do you see that?---Yes.

Goubran to you?---Yes.

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And then that's a very short call, that couldn't have been the deal call, could it?---Probably not.

And then you've got 3 April at 16.58 which is the 1 007 second call from Abboud to Goubran, you see that?---Yes, I probably returned his call.

Probably returned his call?---Yes.

There are a lot ofprobable's about this Mr Abboud, this is a serious matter, 1 0 is it not?---Well, you know, I, I can't recall whether he rang me and I said to

him look, let me call you back or whether I couldn't take the call at that point in time but as a matter of business protocol I always return my calls and if someone had called me and I can't speak to them at that point I'll always say to them let me call you back when I finish what I'm doing or finish the meeting I'm in and it may have been something like that.

But well - - -?--Just normal business practice.

Well, bearing in mind Mr Downing's asked you several questions 20 concerning exchanges between yourself and Goubran - - -?---Yes.

- - - over the period from 30 March up to and including 13 April - - -? ---Yes.

- - - you've done your best to exhaust your recollection, have you not, of what was said between you in phone conversations and/or personal meetings have you not?---That's correct.

Yeah. And you've done that by reference to your journal notes you say you 30 took?---Yes.

And in part your recollection - - -

MR CHALMERS: I object, I object, your Honour. Just listening to that question it doesn't follow on from his last response that he was using his journal entries to itemise every contact he had with Mr Goubran he's never said that and yet that's the assumption within the question.

MR STANTON: Commissioner, the question wasn't directed along that at 40 all. I said in part from the journal entries and in part from meetings and I

was going to go to phone calls.

MR CHALMERS: Can I - - -

MR STANTON: In terms of his recollection. Now, Commissioner, on the objection with respect to my learned friend Mr Chalmers it's unfounded I am exhausting if I may the sources of recollection Mr Abboud' s had access to.

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ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I think his evidence has made it clear the sources he had access to and Mr Stanton, you've been given an opportunity to cross-examine, if you have some specific instructions that phone calls didn't occur or that a conversation didn't occur I've given you some leeway in generally testing the witness's recollection but I would like you to move on to put any specific matter that you wish to, to him based on instructions from your client.

1 0 MR ST ANTON: If it may please.

Now, Mr Abboud, on Exhibit 8 there are 25 phone calls recorded either between you and Mr Goubran or Goubran to yourself, you see that?--That's correct.

Would you accept from me, sir, that they number 25?---I haven't counted them.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr Stanton, why are you asking him to 20 accept the number 25, what possible relevance could that have?

MR ST ANTON: Because it's the sheer weight of the number of calls, Commissioner, and the amount of material we have concerning what was said in the course of those 25 calls.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Not all of these calls are between him and Mr Goubran. MR ST ANTON: Your Honour, Commissioner - - -

30 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Some of them are with other people - - -

MR STANTON: Commissioner - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: - - - and they are calls as I can see them recording calls between two mobile services, they don't purport to recall every contact that this witness may have had with other people, he may have called people from his office. It is what it is which it records certain calls of relevance.

40 MR STANTON: Commissioner, there are more than 25 calls on Exhibit 8. I've isolated in fairness and in my duty as a Counsel of this inquiry and of this witness in cross-examination the number of calls that I'm directing him to which are 25 between a service owned by John Goubran or registered to John Goubran and a service registered to Tony Abboud but I will put the matter beyond that ifl may.

Did you speak to anyone on Mr Goubran's phone service the mobile phone service other than John Goubran when you spoke to him?---When - - -

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Sorry, when you activated that number - - -?---No, we never - - -

- - - in the period 30 March 2012 to 13 April 2012?---Whenever John Goubran's called me or whenever I called John Goubran I spoke to John Goubran and John Goubran spoke to me.

Thank you. Now those 25 calls that are recorded here that you've said you spoke to either Goubran or he spoke to you each of you using your phone

10 services registered to you - - -?---Yes.

- - - is what you've given to this Commission in your evidence yesterday and today the sum total of what you recall as discussed between you?---Yes.

And apart from the journal entries that were recorded is there anything else in writing leaving aside the 9 July's email that you recorded in writing that's not here today of those calls?---Nothing, nothing that is relevant.

Thank you. Now ifl could take you to page 1 3 1 please, sir, of Exhibit 7. 20 Now, Mr Abboud, on the right-hand side are the details of the deal are they

not?---Correct.

As given to you by Goubran?---Correct.

And I want to suggest to you, sir, that nowhere on the right-hand side is there any indication of a threat to the security of Mr Neish's employment impliedly or otherwise referred to in a note by you, is there?

MR DOWNING: I object, Commissioner. It's not a question. The 30 document is obvious as to what it contains and doesn't contain. The witness

has given evidence about it, it's a submission.

40

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. I mean a lot of these are matters for submission. If you have something specific to put about the conversation you're welcome to put it.

MR STANTON: I'm suggesting to you, sir, that nothing on the page is recorded by you concerning the threat to Neish's employment. Do you agree with me or otherwise?

MR DOWNING: I object, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I mean how is that a matter for him to agree with, we can all read it.

MR STANTON: Well, Commissioner, well if we could all read it what's wrong with him agreeing with it after he's read it?

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ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Because it's unnecessary and it's wasting our time.

MR STANTON: I put to you, sir, that you never had a conversation with Goubran concerning any threat to Neish's employment. What do you say to that?---That' s not correct.

And that Goubran never mentioned any threat to Neish's employment hence its non appearance on the right-hand side of page 1 3 1 . What do you say to

10 that?---That's not correct.

And at no time did Goubran ever say to you that Neish's employment was under threat. What do you say to that?---That's not correct.

And nothing on the meeting that you had with Goubran either over the phone or in person ever referred to Neish's employment or its security. What do you say to that?---That's not correct.

Now you've given evidence here yesterday at page 99. I'll just take you to 20 the transcript ifl may. At the top of page 99, sir, you were asked this

question by my learned friend Mr Downing, "Doing your best what's your recollection as to what you said about Mr Neish's employment?" and this is the answer you gave, "After he told me what his supposed deal that he wanted me to take to John Neish he, he, he reaffirmed that if John Neish was to do this his position would be secure particularly after the, the Council elections in September." Do you recall giving that evidence? ---Yes.

I suggest to you, sir, that never occurred - - -?---That's what he said to me. 30

- - - from Goubran to you?---That's - - -

Never occurred?--That's my recollection of what he said.

It's a lie. I suggest to you, Mr - - -?--It is not a lie.

- - - Abboud?---That is not a lie.

It's a lie that you've invented in order to colour the deal to Mr Neish to 40 solicit his support by scaring him that his employment was on the line?

---That's not a lie.

It's a lie that you have perpetrated knowing that you as a avid supporter of this project you needed to colour it with the tincture I suggest to you of giving Neish the impression that his job was on the line if he didn't play ball coming from and you only. What do you say to that? ---That is incorrect.

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And you then were asked this question by Mr Downing, 99 at about line 7, "Did he say anything about whether he wanted that to be communicated to Mr Neish? Well, he didn't say to me specifically whether he wanted me to say that or not but I felt that it would, that's something that John Neish should be aware of'?---That's correct.

And I'm suggesting to you, sir, that's just further exemplification of the lie that you've given to this Commission - - -?---1 did not lie.

1 0 - - - on the basis that I'm instructed it was never said to you at all?---1 did not lie. What was said to me was what was said to me.

Now you say that having told Mr Neish this he became very concerned? ---That's correct.

And did he indicate to you it could possibly be corrupt conduct?---Yes.

And did he indicate to you he was minded to take it to ICAC?---Yes.

20 And did he indicate to you a sense of urgency that ICAC should be apprised of it as soon as possible?

30

MR DOWNING: I object. That needs to be put properly. Did he indicate a sense of urgency doesn't really mean anything, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I don't think that's a clear question.

MR ST ANTON: Well, Commissioner, I'd have betted we would have won Ashes by a lot more but anyway I withdraw that and I put it this way.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Sorry, I didn't hear what you said but I'm sure it's not important. Carry on.

MR STANTON: Indeed, indeed. And I'm sure you'll laugh when you read it, Commissioner.

Anyway, Mr Abboud, let's give you a little chance to apprise yourself of, of what I'm trying to get to you if I may. You see, Mr Abboud, when he said to you he was concerned and he wanted to report it to ICAC did he say that

40 he wanted to report it fairly quickly?---! don't recall.

Did he give you the implication or did you get implied from what he was saying that he wanted to do it as soon as possible?---! don't recall.

Did you think that he might want to have it sooner rather than later?---! don't recall, I didn't make a judgement about that.

You didn't make a judgement about it. Well - - -?---No.

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- - - if you didn't make a judgment about it did Mr Neish try and, to contact you to get your version of the events in writing - - -?--Yes, he did.

- - - propped you that he might have wanted it sooner rather than later?--He didn't tell me why or time frame but he kept asking me for it and I kept undertaking that I would get it to him.

He didn't tell you why?-Well he didn't what in terms of time. He didn't 1 0 tell me why in terms of time he told me why he wanted it but not in terms

of, in terms of, he needed it by a certain date and I kept undertaking, I kept apologising that I hadn't got it to him as yet but that I would get it to him.

How many times did he ask you for it?---Three or four times.

As you recall?---Three or four times.

When did he ask you for it?---A couple of - - -

20 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr Stanton, we have been through this in-chief. I am not willing for him to go through again. If you have something particular to put to him put it to him.

MR ST ANTON: See Mr Abboud, you knew that to confirm this in writing is something that would expose you to an untruth. You knew that didn't you?---Ifthat was, if that was the case why did I do it?

Because you see - - -?---Because it was the truth.

30 Events became so urgent in July that Neish requested of you yet again for that version in writing did he not?

MR DOWNING: I object. It's asking the witness to speculate.

MR STANTON: (not transcribable) I'll put it this way. Finally in July, 6 July, you recorded the conversation in an email to Mr Neish did you not? ---That's correct.

After he'd initially asked you for it on 13 April, 2013?---I don't recall if he 40 asked on that day, but he probably did. He probably asked me are you

prepared to put all of this in writing and I had no - - -

Are you serious?--- - - - I had no issue of not putting that in writing because it's the truth.

You could have done it the same day if you wanted to couldn't you?---I'm running a business.

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You could have done it the same day if you wanted to couldn't you?--1 could have ifl wanted to, ifl had the capacity to.

As a civic - if you had the capacity?---In terms of running a business.

I see?---This wasn't the whole thing that I - I actually run a business.

I appreciate that. But it took you three months - - -?---Yes. I said I was ill.

1 0 - - - to put this in vvriting?---1 was away on several occasions and I was ill during that period.

I understand - - -?---And I was running a business.

- - - I understand you were ill, sir, were you hospitalised?---No.

When you say you were away, for how long were you away?---Oh three days at a time I was interstate.

20 How many times were you interstate up to three days duration?---! don't recall.

30

40

You don't recall?---No. But I'm running a fairly complicated business.

What as a real estate agent?---Yes.

Do you have statr?---Y es.

How many?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I'm not going to allow that question Mr Stanton.

MR ST ANTON: (not transcribable) it pleases, Commissioner. You see - - -?--It was my - - -

- - - on 9 July - - -?--- - - - it was my intent all along to provide John Neish with a written statement, I just didn't get around to it until 9 July. That's a simple fact.

You see 9 July is incorrect, it's 6 July?---Well whatever.

But you said 9 July?--Whatever.

You see on 9 July I want to suggest to you is when Neish got the motion that he was going to be sacked. Isn't that the case? You heard about that did you not?---1 wasn't aware of that.

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Never aware of that?-No, no.

Not at the time?---No.

First time you've heard about it was today?--Well yesterday.

Yesterday. Where did you hear about it yesterday for the first time?--In, in this hearing.

1 0 I see. And three days before the motion to remove him you afforded him the ability to make a section 1 1 ICAC notification?---I wasn't aware that he was going to be sacked or anything like that.

20

30

40

And you keep a close interest on Council affairs do you not?---Yes, I do.

You keep your nose to the ground do you not in terms of what's going on? --Yes, yes I do.

And you didn't know that Neish was going to be removed?---No.

Not on 9 July?---No.

Or a month later?---No.

Not until 1 5 July, 2013 was the first time you heard about it, as a resolution from Council - - -?---When it came out as a resolution from Council. I, I only went to two Council - or I went to two Council meetings where I spoke and I think I went to one other Council meeting as an observer. I don't go to Council meetings every week or every fortnight.

Mr Abboud, I asked you when did you find out about it for the first time you said yesterday, 1 5 July?---Y es.

That's a lie too is it not?---No.

You see Mr Abboud, if I may just conclude on this note, you afforded the communication to him concerning this alleged - I'll withdraw that. You on 6 July afforded to Mr Neish an email giving him the ability to make an ICAC notification - - -

MR HARRIS: I object to that, Commissioner, on behalf of Mr Neish. I don't believe Mr Neish could not have made this section 1 1 notification in the absence of this witness' input.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes. There are several problems - - -

MR HARRIS: And I let that go previously.

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ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you, I agree. There are several problems with the question. But the main thing is this is a matter for argwnent, Mr Stanton.

MR STANTON: Yes.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: If you want to point out the timing, this witness can't comment on it. He says he didn't know.

1 0 MR ST ANTON: I'm just, I'm just one man for when argwnent ensures that there's a decent basis for it. I'll conclude if I may. You supplied it on 6 July after I would suggest to you numerous requests from Mr Neish? --Three or four.

And you supplied it on 6 July and Mr Neish, utilising that made his ICAC notification very soon thereafter.

MR DOWNING: I object

20 MR STANTON: Is that something to your knowledge?---No.

30

40

Yes, nothing further, thank you, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you, Mr Stanton. Is there any other application?

MR HYDE: Yes, I have an application.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Hyde.

MR HYDE: Mr Abboud, I appear for Councillor Petch. Can you tell me whether on 27 March, when you addressed Council whether you spoke with Mayor Etmekdjian that, that evening?---! don't recall.

All right. When was the last conversation that you had with Mayor Etmekdjian?---Sorry?

When did you last have a conversation with the former Mayor, Mayor Etmekdjian?--When did I - in recent times?

Well let's start there. When did you last have a conversation with him?---A couple of weeks ago.

All right. And what was that concerning?

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry, relevance?

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MR HYDE: All right. Perhaps I'll approach it this way. On or about 4 April, 2012 did you have a conversation with the Mayor, that is the former Mayor?---On 4 April, that's the Tuesday?

Correct?--Yeah, I saw him that night, Tuesday night at a Rotary meeting.

And did you have a conversation with him that evening?--It was a Rotary meeting, it was out of the normal meeting venue, we were meeting on a local business, it was like a visit and I mentioned to him that night that I'd

10 received a phone call from John Goubran and that he wanted me to put some deal to John Neish, but I didn't go into what the deal was.

20

30

And what did the Mayor say to you in relation to that?--I don't recall.

Right?---It was just a passing comment, it wasn't a detailed discussion because we were caught up in a Rotary meeting.

And you say that that conversation occurred on 4 April, 2012?---0n the Tuesday night at a Rotary meeting.

And prior to 4 April, 2012 when was your next conversation?---Prior to 4 April?

Yes?---I don't recall.

All right. Did you discuss with him at any stage your view that the precinct redevelopment should go ahead?---It was common knowledge within the community, within the business community, within the community at large that I was a supporter of the redevelopment of the Civic precinct.

My question was did you have a specific conversation with the former Mayor about that topic at any stage?---Probably.

And would it be fair to say that you had a conversation with the former Mayor toward the end of March, 2012 on this topic?--I don't recall.

All right. It's possible that you did?---Possibly, I don't recall. I speak to a lot of the Councillors from time to time.

40 And did you or have you been back through your notes or your diary to see what conversations you had with members of Council prior to 4 April, 2012?---No.

All right. Is it possible that you have a diary entry for a conversation with the former Mayor at around the end of March 2012?---Possibly. I'd look through my diary.

Is it possible that you spoke with the Mayor, that is the former Mayor,

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Mayor Etmekdjian about a possible deal?---1 mentioned to him that John Goubran had called me on that Tuesday night when I saw him at the Rotary meeting. The subsequent time I met with him regarding this deal was when John Goubran, after I'd met with John Neish, asked me to now put this deal if you like, to Artin Etmekdjian.

And when do you say you put that deal to the former Mayor?--Probably a week or two after I'd met with John Neish.

10 All right. Can I suggest to you that you had had a conversation with the former Mayor in late March 2012 about putting a proposed deal to those that were opposed to the precinct redevelopment?---Me putting a proposed deal?

No. You had a conversation with the former Mayor - - -?---Yes.

- - - about putting a proposed deal to those who opposed the redevelopment of the precinct. Correct?---No that's, no that's incorrect.

You say the only time you had a conversation, correction, the only time you 20 had a conversation or your initial conversation was on 4 April, 2012?

---Tuesday night when I saw him at the Rotary meeting.

All right. Can I suggest to you that 4 April, 2012 was in fact a Wednesday?---Oh well it was the Tuesday night.

Right?---The Tuesday night when John Goubran had called me that morning then he rang me that afternoon and gave me the details of the deal, I saw Artin at a Rotary meeting on that Tuesday night, we meet every Tuesday night, the Rotary Club of Ryde and it was unusual to actually see him at a

30 Rotary meeting because as the Mayor, as a Councillor, Council normally sits on a Tuesday night. And this was either leading up to Easter or just after Easter, so Council may not have been sitting, so he was actually at the Rotary meeting. So it was on the Tuesday night that I saw him not the Wednesday night.

40

And do you deny that you asked John Goubran to take a deal to Mr Petch? ---1 asked John Goubran?

Yes?---Of course I deny that.

And do you deny that you were asked to do that by the former Mayor, Mayor Etmekdjian?---Yes.

Nothing further, thank you, Commissioner.

MR ST ANTON: Commissioner, could I just - I've omitted one matter in my haste to comply with your getting on with the job, that's what happens, ma'am unfortunately. But ma'am, just one question ifl may, please?

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ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, Mr Stanton.

MR ST ANTON: Mr Abboud, you did see Mr Goubran on 5 June, did you not, at his office?--5 June?

2012?---I'll check my diary but I remember, I remember - - -

Well, can I assist your recollection?--- - - - going back and seeing him at 10 this office later in the period, yes.

I'll assist your recollection, sir, you wanted the subscription for the Ryde Chamber of Commerce from him in the amount of $100 and you received a cheque from him to be a member of that chamber of which you were president?---No, that's not correct.

Well, you certainly - - -?---On, on several occasions he, he, he said to me in between all these various discussion he said, "What's wrong with you Chamber of Commerce," he said, "I sent in $100 and joined and no one's

20 called me."

Then you - - -?---And I remember saying at my executive, you know, we've had some memberships come in and they haven't been acknowledged.

But you did see him on 5 June I want to suggest to you, sir, at his office in Gladesville?---Yes.

Thank you.

30 ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR BENDER: I have some questions - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr Bender.

MR BENDER: - - - Commissioner.

My name is Bender, Mr Abboud, I appear for Councillor Salvestro-Martin. Might Mr Abboud please be shown page 136 in Exhibit 7. Now you

40 recognise that document don't you, Mr Abboud, as being a note that your prepared in the period leading up to 6 July, 2013?---That's correct.

If I can just direct your attention to the last paragraph on - 2012, thank you. If I can direct your attention to the last paragraph on that page please where you say later that day you mean 3 April, 2012 don't you?--Yes, later that day he called me, on the 3rd.

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1 0

Now ifl can ask that Mr Abboud be shown the next page, page 1 3 7 of the exhibit. You can see on the top of that page there's a lit of bullet points that set out some of the details of the proposal, yes?--That's correct.

Now, if you then go down to about halfway down the page you see the words "It was obvious to me at this stage that John Goubran was speaking on behalf of and representing Ivan Petch, Jeff Salvestro-Martin and Justin Li." Mr Goubran didn't say as much did he?---Not at, at that meeting on the 3rd but it was obvious to me.

Thank you. And then were you - - -

MR DOWNING: I object, the witness should be allowed to finish his answer.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: He just wanted to add that it was obvious to him.

MR BENDER: You say it was obvious to you, that's a matter of your own 20 supposition, isn't it?---That's correct.

It's really a hypothesis?---That's what I felt at the time.

It's a hypothesis, isn't it?---But that's what I felt at the time.

But it is a hypothesis, it's your hypothesis, isn't it?---Yes.

Now, if you just go up to the previous paragraph on the page please where you say that you thought the committee looked like it was stacked in favour

30 of the no camp - - -?---Yes.

40

- - - it doesn't follow from forming that view that Councillor Salvestro-Martin was behind the proposal does it?---Not directly, no.

The proposal could have emanated from anyone who was opposed to the development, couldn't it?---That's correct.

Now, it's possible that Councillor Salvestro-Martin didn't know anything about the proposal at all, isn't it?--Possibly.

Now it certainly, if you could then go to the next sentence in that paragraph he then said that John Neish can choose who he wants on the committee? ---That's correct.

It certainly doesn't follow from that sentence that Councillor Salvestro-Martin had any knowledge of the proposal does it?---Possibly.

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1 0

Well, it can't follow from that sentence that Councillor Salvestro Martin had knowledge of that proposal can it?---Well, that, that sentence relates to who was on the committee not the four Councillors.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, as I recall your evidence that was all about the community reps and that they were people - - -?---That's correct.

- - - who were not in favour?---That's correct.

And, and I think that whole sentence is not about the Councillor members, Mr Bender, it's about the community members?---That's correct.

MR BENDER: The sentence I was directing the witness's attention to was the sentence he then said that John Neish can choose who he wants on the committee?---Yeah, the - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, the community - - -

20 THE WITNESS: - - - the community.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: - - - representatives.

MR BENDER: Well, regardless who those people were my question is it simply can't as a matter oflogic follow from that that Councillor Salvestro-Martin was behind the proposal can it?

MR DOWNING: I object, it's a logical fallacy, there's no reason why Councillor Salvestro-Martin can't have agreed to a deal that involved

30 Mr Neish being given some leeway to choose people he wanted to. My friend's suggesting it means it's possible for this deal in those terms to have been something that Councillor Salvestro-Martin knew of.

40

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Well, I think Mr Bender's saying that that sentence, that sentence doesn't give any justification to say Mr Salvestro-Martin was behind it, not that it means he couldn't have behind it.

MR BENDER: I can rephrase the question.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR BENDER: There's nothing about that sentence that particularly suggests that Councillor Salvestro-Martin was behind the proposal is there? ---Not within that sentence.

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No. And the fact that Councillor Salvestro-Martin ultimately was one of the proposed members of the committee didn't necessarily mean that he was the person behind the proposal did it?--Not at that point, no.

Although I understand that that was the view that you ultimately formed? ---Which was confirmed on 8 May when the resolution was put up by Salvestro-Martin and Ivan Petch, he - the watered down version of the resolution.

1 0 Well, if you could answer my, my question. It certainly doesn't follow from the fact that Councillor Salvestro-Martin was ultimately one of the proposed members of the committee that he must have, that he must have been behind the proposal put by Mr Goubran?---At that point right there?

At this point, yes?---No.

No. Now, as to what you said is it, is it your suggestion that on 8 May of 2012 Councillor Salvestro-Martin was one of the Councillors who moved the notice of motion for the establishment of the committee?---To my

20 recollection.

Right. Well, I put it to you that's simply not correct and that's not recorded in the Council minutes?---1 understand that that resolution was put up by the no Councillors and it was at the time promoted as such.

Sorry, will you bear with me, Commissioner?---That was my understanding, that the resolution was put up by the no Councillors at the time.

Can Mr Abboud be, please, please be shown page 385 of Exhibit 1 . You 30 can see that that's a page of a minute of a Council meeting and to be fair I

should show you page 383. So you can see that's a, a minute of a Council meeting of 8 May, 2012, is that correct?---Y es.

I take it from your answer earlier you were at that meeting?---Yes.

Have you seen these minutes before?---Not in detail.

Could you go to page 385 please. Is - about halfway down the page under the heading ''Notices of motion" if you could read that motion, is that the

40 motion to which you were referring earlier that you suggested had been moved by Councillor Salvestro-Martin?---Yes, that's the one that I said that was moved in my opinion or as I understood it by the no Councillors but it says there that it was actually moved I would assume on their behalf by Councillors Petch and Tagg.

Well, putting aside your assumptions as to whose behalf, on whose behalf things were done does reviewing this minute change your view or your

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recollection I should say as to who moved that resolution?--Well, it, it says there that it was moved by Councillors Petch and Tagg.

Yes. Now you suggested in your answer a moment ago that your view that Councillor Salvestro-Martin was one of the people behind the proposal was supported by your recollection of the minute that I, of the motion I just took you to, is that right?--Yes.

Well can't have been something you had in mind when you spoke to Mr 1 0 Neish on 13 April could it?---When I spoke to Mr - - -

20

But that can't have been something you had in mind on 13 April could it? --Sorry, could you - - -

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr Bender, that's obvious. I don't see the point of putting that to the witness. Obviously he can't have had in mind something that hasn't happened yet.

MR BENDER: Okay.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: The point is made and it's a matter that can be made in argument.

MR BENDER: Yes. Thank you, Commissioner.

You knew that Councillor Salvestro-Martin was very public in his opposition to the development didn't you?---That's correct.

So it's possible isn't it that someone other than Councillor Salvestro-Martin 30 was behind the proposal and suggested that Councillor Salvestro-Martin

beyond the committee because that person was confident that Councillor Salvestro-Martin would continue to oppose the development when on the committee. lsn 't that right?---That is possible.

40

So in light of your answers to those questions ifl can take you back please to page 13 7 of Exhibit 7. Actually I withdraw that, no further questions, Commissioner, thank you.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes.

MR GRIFFIN: Mr Abboud, my name is Griffin, I appear for Councillor Li in these proceedings. Am I correct in recollecting that you said in your evidence that the deal outlined by Mr Goubran came from the no camp? ---That's correct.

And then you said that the no camp was led by Petch, Salvestro-Martin and Li. Is that correct?---That's correct.

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Do you agree that during your discussions with Mr Goubran at no stage did he name Councillor Li as a potential member of the proposed committee? --That's correct.

Do you accept that six Councillors were opposed to the project?---Yes, that's correct.

On what basis do you say that Councillor Li was a leader of the no camp as opposed to the other five members opposed?---Well I don't recall ifl

1 0 actually said he was a leader, the no camp had a, a one voice if you like, a combined voice that's the way it appeared in the, in the community, they spoke as one, I don't recall saying that I felt that Councillor Li was a leader of that group.

Well you said the no camp was led by Petch, Salvestro-Martin and Li? ---Well they were the ones that were mentioned by John Goubran on that morning.

What did Mr Goubran say about Mr Li?---1 don't recall anything specific. 20 The only time Councillor Li came into the discussion was in, in my notes in

the journal when John Goubran was suggesting who he felt was going to come back into and, and be part of the, the new Council after September the 12.

The, the reference in your notes was Mr Goubran's opinion as to who would be re-elected it had nothing to do with who was leading the no camp? ---That, that's probably correct.

You 're then taken by my learned friend Mr Bender to page 13 7. Can I take 30 you to that same passage where you say, "It was obvious to me at this stage

that John Goubran was speaking on behalf of and representing Ivan Petch, Jeff Salvestro-Martin and Justin Li." On what basis do you tell the Commissioner that Mr Goubran was speaking on behalf of and representing Mr Li?---When I wrote that I was referring to my notes in my journal and Councillor Li's name was there as you saw on the notes in my journal so I probably copied Councillor Li's name from my notes.

So going back to my question on what basis did you hold the belief that Mr Goubran was speaking on behalf of and representing Mr Li?---I, I don't

40 think I said that I felt he was representing Councillor Li.

Well that's what the sentence on page 13 7 says with respect?---Y eah. It - - -

You now retract that?---As I say I put those three names in that, in that sentence because I was just taking notes, I was referring to my notes in my journal.

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So do you now retract the suggestion that Mr Goubran was representing Mr Li?---1, I have to recollect what was actually said before I retract that but I, I don't actually recall, I know predominately the discussion was around Ivan Petch and Jeff Salvestro-Martin and there was one mention of Justin Li as I noted in my journal.

That mention related to Mr Goubran's opinion that Mr Li would be re­elected?---That's correct.

1 0 And nothing more. That's correct isn't it?---From my recollection.

20

Mr Abboud, Mr Li will give evidence in due course to this Commission that he had no knowledge of the deal that Mr Goubran put. Do you have any information or knowledge to the contrary?---No.

Thank you, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you. If there's nobody else, good, we can - do you wish to re-examine at all, Mr Downing?

MR DOWNING: No, Commissioner.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Well, thank you for that. You are now excused, Mr Abboud, and we will have a 15 minute adjournment.

THE WITNESS EXCUSED [11.35am]

30 SHORT ADJOURNMENT [11.35am]

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Please be seated. Yes Mr Downing.

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner. The next wi1ness is Mr Bryan Belling.

ASSIST ANT COMMISSIONER: Yes Mr Belling, could you go over 40 please. Mr Belling, I'm sure you're aware of the provisions of section 38 of

the ICAC Act. Do you wish to seek a declaration under the section?

MR BELLING: I do, Commissioner.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Pursuant to section 38 of the Independent Commission Against Corruption Act, I declare that all answers given by this wi1ness and all documents and things produced by him during the course of his evidence at this public inquiry are to be regarded as having

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been given or produced on objection and there is no need for the witness to make objection in respect of any particular answer given or document or thing produced.

PURSUANT TO SECTION 38 OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION AGAINST CORRUPTION ACT, I DECLARE THAT ALL ANSWERS GIVEN BY TIDS WITNESS AND ALL DOCUMENTS AND THINGS PRODUCED BY HIM DURING THE

1 0 COURSE OF ms EVIDENCE AT TIDS PUBLIC INQUIRY ARE TO BE REGARDED AS HAVING BEEN GIVEN OR PRODUCED ON OBJECTION AND THERE IS NO NEED FOR THE WITNESS TO MAKE OBJECTION IN RESPECT OF ANY PARTICULAR ANSWER GIVEN OR DOCUMENT OR THING PRODUCED.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Mr Belling, will you take an oath or make an affirmation?

20 MR BELLING: Take an oath, your Honour.

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1 0

<BRIAN ROBERT BELLING, sworn [12:15pm]

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Thank you. Yes, Mr Downing.

MR DOWNING: Thank you, Commissioner. Mr Belling, could you just state your full name for the Commission, please?---Bryan Robert Belling.

And your date ofbirth?---24 November, 1953.

And your address?---........................................... .

You're a solicitor?---! am.

And you've been in practice for how many years?---More than 30.

You're a solicitor who has acted for Councillor Petch at various times? ---Yes.

20 And for Ryde Council?---That's correct.

Can I ask you for how long have you known Councillor Petch?---1 met Councillor Petch in January of this year, around about 8 or 1 1 I think, from memory.

Of January this year?---Yes.

So you've not known him before then?---No.

30 And is it the case that - I'll withdraw that. Did Councillor Petch then retain you to act on behalf of the Council - - -?---Yes.

- - - in various matters in January of this year?---Yes.

Relating to Mr Neish's employment?---Yes.

Relating to other matters?---Well generally in relation to a number of things that the Commission was looking at concerning the activities of Council. But, but as I understood the retainer was really in relation to Mr Neish,

40 principally.

Now have you acted for Councils previously to acting for Ryde Council? ---Yes.

And I take it you're familiar with the Local Government Act?---Yes.

I'm not suggesting that you read it for bedtime reading?---! don't know it off by heart, but I do know - - -

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Are you familiar with chapter 14, which deals with honesty and disclosure of interests?--Y es, in general terms.

And part 1 of chapter 14 covers issues of conduct?---Y es.

That is conduct of Councillors and Council employees?---Yes.

And are you aware that section 440 of the Act provides for the prescription 1 0 of a model Code of Conduct?---Yes.

And that's a Code of Conduct which - well I'll withdraw that. Are you aware that under the Local Government General Regulation 2005 a model Code of Conduct has been prescribed in New South W ales?---Y es.

And it's the Code of Conduct that Councils are required to incorporate, to adopt for the purposes of the conduct of their staff and Councillors?---That's my understanding.

20 And were you aware as at January 2013 that Ryde Council has its own Code of Conduct based on the model code?---1 was aware, yes.

30

Can I ask you to have a look at pages - or starting at page 1596 of Exhibit 1, which is the Code of Conduct in place as at January of this year. So had you - if you need to scan up or down please let us know. But had you seen a copy of this as at January this year when you acted for the Council?---Y es. I can't tell you when but it would have been mid to late January I think.

In the course of your retainer to act for the Council?---Yes.

And you're aware that the Code of Conduct, as the name suggests, covers the conduct expected or required of Councillors and Council staffi---Y es.

That it covers such things as conflicts of interest?---Yep.

Sorry, you just need to speak up?---Yes, sorry, yes.

Gifts and benefits?---Yes.

40 Use of certain Council information?---Y es.

And the use - and the security of confidential information?---Y ep.

And you're aware that the Code of Conduct sets out a complaint handling procedure?---Yes, I am.

And at 1615, that is page 1615 if we could skip ahead to there, is that the complaints, the complaint handling procedure you're aware of?---lt is.

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And are you aware that it provides that in terms of complaints in respect of the General Manager that they should be addressed in writing to the Mayor?---That's the standard arrangement, yes.

But sanctions, this is at point 6, sanctions for staff depend on the severity, scale and importance of the breach and must be determined in accordance with any relevant industrial instruments or contracts?---Yes.

1 0 And if we go ahead to page 1 6 1 6 at point 10 there's a particular complaint handling procedure in respect of the conduct of the General Manager, were you familiar with that?---Yes, yes.

And that it provides for the Mayor being responsible for assessing complaints and that at point 1 1 it provides that the Mayor can determine to do various or must determine to do certain things?---! see that, yes.

But is to take no action, to resolve the complaint by use of alternative and appropriate strategies, to discontinue the assessment or to refer the matter to

20 a conduct review committee or reviewer?---Y es.

So you were aware of all these things when you acted for Council in January 2013?---I was.

Now, can you recall receiving a telephone call from Councillor Petch on 1 February, 2013 - - -?---Ah - - -

- - - at about 8.30 in the morning?---Yes.

30 Do you recall what Councillor Petch called you about?---Yes, I do, yeah.

Can you tell us what it was?---A member of staff, I think he described the person as the IT manager, had delivered to him a CD Rom together with some other materials that, that related to pornographic images.

Right. Did he say anything else to you about that?---Yes, he asked me what he should do with it. The information pertaining to Mr Neish I think is common ground.

40 Right?---And he asked me what he should do about it.

Did you give him any advice about whether that is material that would be regarded as confidential?---! don't think I expressed my advice in terms of confidentiality but I certainly said it was material that should be held very, very closely by him.

Because in view of the nature of the complaint and what it involved with Mr Neish - - -?---Yes.

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- - - you'd accept, wouldn't you, that that is confidential material - - -? --Absolutely.

- - - that should be handled sensitively - - -?---Absolutely.

- - - within Council?--Yes.

Well, doing your best can you tell us what you recall Mr Petch saying to 1 0 you further about the matter and what you advised him during the call?

--Well, well, he asked me, he, he asked me what that meant and by that I'd understood him to mean in terms of Mr Neish's ongoing employment and, and I said to him it was too early to tell but he should hold it close, keep it -I probably did say keep it confidential and I, I also suggested to him that, that he should also be concerned to test the provenance of the information that he was given because it was possible that, that Mr Neish was being set up.

Right. Now did you give him any advice about the way in which the 20 complaint, because it was a complaint by the IT employee, wasn't it, against

Mr Neish?---Yeah, I think that's a pretty safe categorisation, yes.

30

Did you give Mr, Councillor Petch any advice about how the complaint should be handled having regard to the complaint handling procedure as part of the Council's Code of Conduct?---Not, not beyond saying he should hold it close until we decided what to do and, and I'd, I'd certainly tendered some advice to him, that the provenance of it should be tested before he took any, any steps in, in relation to, you know, taking the matter even to Mr Neish.

Wouldn't normally though - one of the - I'll withdraw that. One of the, one of the avenues open to the Mayor under the complaint handling procedure was to have the, have a conduct review committee or reviewer appointed? ---That's true, that was an option, yes.

And wouldn't normally that person or committee undertake any investigation to check the voracity of the allegations?---That, that was certainly one avenue, Mr Downing but I, I was having this conversation in the context where I was retained to give advice about the ongoing tenure of

40 MrNeish's contract of employment so the question we were focussed on in that conversation is whether it constituted some misconduct justifying summary dismissal so he would - - -

Did Mr - I'm sorry, sorry, please finish?---! think in a more complete answer to your initial question it was in that context that I was asked to give the advice and my, my counsel to Mr Petch was it too early to tell, he might have, Mr Neish may well have been being set up by a member of staff. So

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we - dumping the issue into the review system didn't even - we had no conversation about that in that conversation as I recall it.

You didn't think that that might have been an appropriate way for it to be handled - - -?--I did.

- - - for an external person to be appointed or an external committee to investigate the - - -?---Indeed I didn't I thought, I thought the better approach might be to, for me to, to do it under the cloak of legal

1 0 professional privilege until we knew a bit more.

Did Mr, did Councillor Petch express any view to you about Mr Neish's employment in, in the light of the complaint that had been made against him?---Not, not in, not expressly as I recall it but, but I had been initially retained to give advice to Council as to the opportunities to terminate Mr Neish's contract of employment, I don't think I, I can - I need to be coy about that that's why I was retained.

I'd ask you to listen to a recording of a telephone conversation and there 20 would also be made available a transcript of it?---Yes.

So if we could have that played.

AUDIO RECORDING PLAYED [12.26pm]

MR HARRIS: Commissioner, with respect can I just ask for a reminder in relation to the suppression order on the name ................... ., that's Mr

30 Neish's current employer that was made yesterday.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: Yes, there is a suppression order in respect of the name .......................... .

MR HARRIS: Thank you.

THE WITNESS: I can't deny that was me.

MR DOWNING: You pre-empted me, Mr Belling. You accept that that 40 was a phone conversation between yourself - - -?---I do.

- - - and Mr Petch?---I do.

On the morning of 1 February?---Yep.

1 February, 2013?---Yeah, I'll accept it was, I don't, I don't recall exactly.

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10

Commissioner, I tender the audio and the transcript of the telephone conversation.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: That will be Exhibit 10.

#EXHIBIT 10 - COPY OF AN AUDIO CASSETTE AND TRANSCRIPT OF A TELEPHONE CALL BETWEEN MR PETCH AND MR BELLING ON 1 FEBRUARY 2013

MR DOWNING: Now Mr Belling, in the course of that telephone conversation you suggested meeting at Coxs Road?---Yes.

And you referred in the telephone conversation to it being the usual place? ---Yes.

Had you met with Mr Petch previously at a particular location in Coxs Road?--Yes. There's two, two locations, one on each side of the road, both

20 cafes.

Is one of them Delitalia?---1 think that's what it's called, yes.

And were you, were you introduced by Councillor Petch to Mr Cerreto, the owner of that establishment?---V ery briefly, I think, yeah.

Can I ask you then prior to this occasion, 1 February, when had you met with Mr Petch there previously?---1, I can't recall exact dates, but it would have been once or twice in January.

30 In relation to what?---To the retainer I had. Maybe I could contextualise it for you this way. I was retained to advise on the termination of Mr Neish's contract of employment in the face of Supreme Court orders, undertakings rather given to the Commission in the Supreme Court not to do that. And so I met with him on a couple of occasions to ascertain the whys and the wherefores of that.

40

So in respect of the Supreme Court proceedings - - -?---Yes.

- - - that had been commenced by the Council and ICAC - - -?---Yes.

- - - seeking injunction to prevent a termination of employment?--Y es. Councillor Petch was after my advice as to whether there was an opportunity not withstanding those undertakings to terminate the contract of employment of Mr Neish.

So he wanted to see whether he could sack him despite the fact there was an injunction preventing him for doing just that?---If, ifit were lawful to do so, yes.

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Can I ask why were you meeting at a cafe in Coxs Road rather than either in your offices or Mr Petch's office?--No particular reason although sometimes I, I travel out that way to go and see other clients out at Parramatta so.

But you're discussing Supreme Court proceedings, would you normally discuss those in a cafe in the open air?---Sometimes I do, yes, absolutely.

1 0 Now in the course of this discussion during the phone call that I just had played to you would you agree with this that Mr Petch suggested to you an intention on his part that material in respect of Mr Neish might accidentally be leaked to the National Press?---Yes, he said that.

So I take it you infer from that that he was suggesting that he would make that happen?---Y es, if I thought about it at all that's certainly the implication from those words.

And he indicated that again by the implication of the words that he used that 20 the reason he would want to do that was to destroy Mr Neish's reputation?

---1 don't accept that necessarily.

Well can you think of a good reason why he might want to leak documents suggesting that he accessed pornography on a laptop computer at home to the National Press other than to destroy his reputation?---A question better addressed to him I think, Mr Downing, I, I can only speculate about that.

Well what did you understand his intention was in telling you that he might accidentally have his material leaked to the National Press?---Well to put it

30 in the public domain obviously.

For what purpose?---Well, that's a question best directed to him, I don't know.

Surely, surely you're his lawyer - - -?---Yes.

- - - he's speaking to you - - -?--Well I was - - -

- - - about an intention to leak documents to the National Press, documents 40 which you've agreed with me before you had no doubt were confidential?

---Yes.

And information you had no doubt was confidential?--Y es. But, but I was also - - -

Surely you formed a view in those circumstances about what he might be thinking and wanting to do that?--I did and, and if you go back to the transcript I talk to him about an escalation process and, and holding the

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matter in confidence until we test the provenance of the, of the material that he was given.

Well he suggested also in that conversation that you could give a bit of serious thought about talking to a particular firm that was doing consultancy work in Local Government?---Y es.

And you're aware the firm I'm referring to as a suppression order made in respect of the name but - - -?---Yes, yes. I had in fact had conversations

10 with the principal of that firm leading up to those dates, I think the last one was 2 7 January.

And what was the nature of those discussions?--! was seeking to use that person as a intermediary to negotiate Mr Neish's exit from Council because the information that I had from a conversation with that principal before I was retained by Ryde was that Mr Neish may have been himself looking for an exit because he was, he had a, a change of leadership in, in the chamber as a result of the September election and - - -

20 That is Councillor Petch became Mayor?---Y es. And, and the contest that at the basis of this inquiry between the fors and against in relation to that development the numbers have changed and so the question was whether Mr Neish himself wanted to exit and I was having conversations with the principal of his now employer as an intermediary to try and negotiate that.

Was it on the basis of information from Councillor Petch that you spoke to the principal of this - - -?---No.

- - - consultancy?---No. In fact I, I had before I was retained I was having a 30 conversation with the principal of that organisation as a result of another

Council engagement I had. Mr Downing, this, this information is all contained in a letter that's actually submitted to the Commission.

40

Well we'll come to that shortly. You say you previously had contact with the principal of this consultancy - - -?---Before I was retained, yes.

But would it presumably though in order for you to then speak to that person after you were retained you would have needed the instructions of Mr Petch?---Yes, and I got those instructions.

Now in the course of this discussion what he said to you is that "You should give some serious thought about talking to the principal of that consultancy" and he said, "Don't do it before we discuss it but think about talking to that person and he should come and have a chat to me and have his resignation ready - - -?---Yes.

- - - because if this goes to the national press which will quite accidentally happen, it will be everywhere his name will have, everywhere, his name, he

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will have to leave town because he's not only not, will he not get a job in local government but his standing, personal standing in the community will be at an all-time low"?---Y eah, I heard those words, yeah.

Now did you understand that what Mr, Councillor Petch was suggesting was you should think about going and speaking to the principal of consultancy and suggesting to him look, convince John Neish to come in with his resignation because ifhe doesn't then quite accidentally this might hit the national press and his name will be tarnished and he will never get a job

1 0 anywhere?---Perhaps, perhaps I can contextualise it for you. On the - the conversation I had with the principal prior to my retainer, I'd invited the principal to go to Mr Neish and find out whether he was happy or whether he was interested in negotiating an exit. I then got the retainer from Mr Neish in early January and I spoke to the principal again and said I'm now instructed by Council and in the event that Mr Neish is interested in negotiating an exit we're interested in having that conversation. Then on 27 January, which is four or five days before the telephone conversation that's been extracted, I had a longer conversation with the principal who told me that Mr Neish had no interest in going. I reported that, that outcome

20 back to Councillor Petch together with the Council that, that there was no, I could do no more to assist in negotiating the exit of Mr Neish in favour, in face of the undertakings given to the Supreme Court.

So you understood that at that point Mr Neish didn't want to go?---1, I understood that and although not quite but I thought it was either the intention that he didn't want to go or he was negotiating a better climatic to settle the pay, to, to get a pay out and, and so my counsel to Mr Petch at that stage, Councillor Petch at that stage was I had run my course. That's why you see in the transcript of the evidence you've just played the reference to

30 manna from heaven because now we had the potential of having Mr Neish engaged in serious misconduct.

Well, thank you for that context but if I can return to my question now and to what Mr, what Councillor Petch was communicating to you?---Yes.

What he asked you to do, and please tell me if you agree with this?---Yeah.

Was to think about going and speaking to the principal of the consultancy where you understood there might be some interest in Mr Neish working - -

40 -?---Yes.

- - - and raising with them the prospect that Mr Neish have his resignation ready because if he didn't then this information about his computer might accidentally find its way to the national press?---Yes, that's what he said.

Did you understand from what Mr, what Councillor Petch was raising with you that he was suggesting was that to in effect have conveyed through an intermediary to Mr Neish - - -?---Yes.

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- - - a threat that if he doesn't resign then there will be a leak, an accidental leak but a leak of this information about the use of his laptop?--Yes, you, you certainly draw that conclusion but I certainly didn't take any such steps with, with the principal.

Did you consider that what Councillor Petch was suggesting was something that might potentially even involve a criminal act?---Y es.

1 0 Well, did you say anything to him to suggest that that would be completely inappropriate?---Not in that conversation obviously and whether I said - I did say things to him relevant to that but not, not in that context if I can express it that way. In other words I didn't counsel him not to do it because it would be a criminal act, I certainly did counsel him not to do it.

20

But not during this conversation?---Not during that conversation.

You recall I asked you before about the Code of Conduct and your knowledge of that?---Y es.

Can I ask you to have a look again at page 161 1 of Exhibit 1 and in particular would you look at clause 5.lO(e). Do you see that one of the provisions there in particular 5.lO(e), and this applies to Councillors under the Code, is that in addition to your general obligations relating to the use of Council information you must not use confidential information with the intention to cause harm or detriment to your Council or any other person or body?---1 see that.

Now that was precisely what Councillor Petch was suggesting he had an 30 intention to do wasn't it?---lt was.

And did you counsel him in the course of this meeting that what you're doing would be a serious breach of the Code of Conduct?---!, I don't think I said those words to him, no.

You didn't say anything to suggest that he shouldn't do it, did you?---Well, not in that conversation but I did later.

Well what you in fact did in this conversation was suggest that he might 40 want to get it checked out to make sure that it's legitimately something that

- well I'll withdraw that. Legitimately material that Mr Neish had accessed on his laptop?---Yes.

So make sure it's, it's kosher?---Yes.

You didn't suggest that being done, you should handle it in a particular way did you?---Well not in that conversation, but I did when I met him. In fact we discussed the protocol in some detail when I met him.

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1 0

Do you accept that it would have been appropriate given what he'd told you over the phone to counsel him that what he was contemplating doing was a clear - would amount to a clear breach of the Code of Conduct?---No, well I didn't give that express counsel as is obvious in the conversation.

But I'm suggesting that it would have been appropriate given what he had intended to - what he'd communicated to you he intended to do - - -?---Well

- - - to give him advice then and there that what he was contemplating was a serious breach of the Code ofConduct?---Well that depends on the understanding between he and I, frankly.

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: I'm sorry - - -

MR DOWNING: What do you mean by that?---

ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER: - - - what do you mean Mr Belling? 20 ---Well what I mean by that is that he put himself in my hands including as

to the development of a strategy and he said that. And I said I wanted to ruminate it over the weekend and come up with a strategy. Now I knew that he wouldn't go running off to the press, you know, with this stuff in the interim because we'd agreed to conjugate and contemplate the way to handle it.

MR DOWNING: Well can I ask you, look again at page 59 of the transcript or page 5 of 5 of the transcript of the telephone call and we can have it replayed if you like, what you suggested to him, sorry, I'll just pause while

30 we call it up. Starting at the top of the page and indeed going from the bottom of the page before you indicated to him that you had contacts in the media?---Y es.

Do I take it from that that you were suggesting that you could actually assist him in having this leak to the media?--I think that was just a bit of blarney, frankly. I mean I had my duties to him and, and to the Council. It was a long way off going to the press about anything. But you've told us that you suggested to him that there was a, a strategy that needed to be hatched. But if you look at the conversation on page 5?---Just,

40 just pause, just pause there. I use the words as an escalation process. You don't go near the fourth estate until we've firstly got to do a bit of due diligence. The fourth estate being the press.

So due diligence on it and then we'll figure out a strategy?---Yes.

But the due diligence you were suggesting and which you in fact pursued was to have it forensically checked to make sure it was real?--Yes.

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So your view was it I take it that having checked that it really was legitimate it would then be okay to leak it to the fourth estate?---That was not my view, no.

Well what were you suggesting then?---That because the question, the question under Mr Neish's contract employment whether that conduct constituted conduct justifying somebody's dismissal. Remember my retainer was to try and find a way to terminate Mr Neish's contract of employment if it were lawful to do so. So, so that's what I'm doing, I'm

1 0 saying to him, firstly we've go to check the providence, secondly we've got to figure out whether, whether there's a termination or not, whether it's a sundry offence justifying termination and then you'd have to take those steps or you'd be entitled to take those steps perhaps is a better way to put it.

Mr Belling, can I suggest to you that what in fact you did during this conversation was not suggest that we need to check Council policies and protocols and make sure whether this might be something that justified a reprimand or a cessation of internet rights or perhaps a termination, what you said to him was we'll need to investigate it and check it out to make

20 sure it's genuine before we can then escalate it, meaning release it to the press?---That's not what I intended at all. And you don't go near the fourth estate, right, until firstly we've got to do a bit of due diligence on it. Now I'm responding to his suggestion that he's going to leak to the press. I'm telling him not to do that.

Until you've checked that it's genuine?---Yes.

So that presumably - - -?---And, and, no but the other step that I'm interested in is the contract of employment, not going to the press with this

30 stuff. And in fact we didn't go to the pres with it.

Where, where in this conversation did you say to him it will be important to check what, what Mr Neish's contract of employment says in terms of how this information could be used in relation to his employment?---No, I didn't expressly refer to that in this conversation because contextually that's what I was retained to do. I was considering the question of the determination of Mr Neish' s contract of employment and his employment. What you, what you in fact did was congratulated him on his incredible good luck?---Y es, I did. Because he, he was struggling, he, he wanted to,

40 together with his political allies determine the contract of Mr Neish and he was struggling to find a way to do so and on 27 January I told him it couldn't be done.

Now you refer to political allies, do I take it from that that in the course of your dealings with Mr Petch, sorry, Councillor Petch, he indicated to you that there were others that wished to have John Neish out of Council? ---Yeah, I thought it was pretty well established on the information I had from him that the Council, the old Council was log-jammed six/six and it

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