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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURTFOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF INDIANA
HAMMOND DIVISION CQOSO
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, )) ?̂̂ £* /
Plaintiff, ) c
)vs. )
)MIDWEST SOLVENT RECOVERY, INC., )a corporation; MIDWEST INDUSTRIAL )WASTE DISPOSAL COMPANY, INC., a )corporation; INDUSTRIAL TECTONICS, ) CIVIL ACTIONINCORPORATED, a corporation; V and E ) NO. H-79-556CORPORATION, a corporation; and )ERNEST DOHART, EDWARD D. CONLEY, )HELGA C. CONLEY, LOVIS DsHART, )CHARLES A. LIGHT, DAVID E. LIGHT, )DBLORES LIGHT, EUGENE CLISIAX, )JEANETTE CLISIAX, LUTHER G. BLOOMBERG, )ROBERT J. DAWSOH, JR., VICTOR XIRSCB, )JOHN KIRSCH, EVA XXRSCB, JOHN MILETICB, )and MARY MILETICH, individuals, )
Defendants, )
1ROBERT J. DAWSON, JR., )
)Cross-Claimant, )
)vs. )
)MIDWEST SOLVENT RECOVERY, INC., . )a corporation; MIDWEST INDUSTRIAL )WASTE DISPOSAL COMPANY, INC., a )corporation; INDUSTRIAL TECTONICS, )INCORPORATED, a corporation; V and E )CORPORATION, a corporation; and )ERNEST DttHART, EDWARD D. CONLEY, )BELGA C. CONLEY, LOVIE DoRART, )CHARLES A. LIGHT, DAVID B. LIGHT, )DELORES LIGHT, EUGENE CLISIAX, )JBANETTE CLISIAX, LUTHBR G. BLOOMBERG, )VICTOR KIRSCH, JOHN KIRSCH, BVA KIRSCH, )JOHN MILETICH, and MARY MILETICH, indi- )viduals, )
D*f andants ,
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The deposition of CHARLES A. LIGHT, adefendant in tha abova antitlad cauaa, called by theplaintiff harein, pursuant to notioa and pursuant totha Provisions of tha Fadaral Rules of Civil Proeadurafor tha Unitad Statas District Courts, taken baforaBranda J. Cueller, a duly qualified and competentcourt reporter at 507 State Street, Hammond, Indiana,on Friday, January 4, 1980, commencing at tha hourof 10x00 a.m.
A P P E A R A N C E S :
MR. ANDREW B. BAKER,Assistant U.S. Attorney,507 State Street,Hammond, Indiana,
on behalf of plaintiff;
MR. DAVID E. LIGHT,280'Madison Avenue,New York, New Tork 10016
on behalf of defendantsCharles Licht, Delores Lichtand Industrial Tectonics.
ALSO PRESENT: Mr. Michael Beraan,Environmental ProtectionAgency, Region Pive,230 South Dearborn,Chicago, Illinois 60604
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CHARLES A. LICET
a defendant, called as a witness by the plain-tiff herein, being first duly sworn to testifythe truth and nothing but the truth, deposethand saith as follows:
DIRECT BXAMIHATIOHBy Mr. Bakeri
Would you state your nave, please, sir?
Charles A. Licht, L-i-c-h-t.
In what city do yon reside?
Olympia Fields, 0-1-y-m-p-i-a, Fields, Illinois.
And what is your occupation, sir?
I am a Counseling Engineer.
Are you self-employed or —
No. I'n employed by Charles Licht Engineering
Association as incorporated.
And where does that firm do business?
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At 414 West Lincoln Highway, Chicago Heights.
Ar« you involved in any other enterprise?
I'm also president of Industrial Tectonics*
T-e-c-t~o-n-i-c-s, Incorporated also based at
the same address.
And what is the business of that firm, sir?
The firm Industrial Teehtonics has two operations
within the corporate structure. One of the
operations an original operation was the design
and construction of special machinery) and more
recently the second division called the Chemical
Division was set up to handle processing of
certain types of liquid waste.
And when was Industrial Techtonios incorporated?
KB. LIGHT» within the last five or six —
THE WITUSS: I think, it was October, 1969,
but I'm not positive of that.
And when was the Chemical Division created?
In October of 1977.
When did you first come up with the idea for the
creation of the Chemical Division within Industrial
Teohtonios?
During the spring of 1977. I can't tell you the
specific date, but some time in the spring of
1977, I was approached by two gentlemen who were --
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who at that tiae were IB liquid waste in particular
aoid wasta disposal; and we discussed the possi-
bility of setting up within th* Industrial Techtonics
corporate shall a disposal operation that handlad
paint sludges and other material that had valuable
components for reclaim.
And who were these two gentlemen?
One of thm is Harold Bagaa and the other is
Alfred Tenny, T-e-n-n-y.
Prior to this tiae, had you been assooiated in
any business enterprises with either of those two
gentleaen?
I've known Tenny for quite a while. Be had set
up his coapany at about the same tiae I set up
ay Counseling Engineer company. They worked in
the area of water pollution control, we worked
pretty auch in the area of air pollution and
solid waste aanageaent, and so, we would occasionally
use the services of their laboratories for cer-
tain types of work and also their engineering
staff» certain types of water pollution control
work.
MR. LIGHT* But you are actually independent
of thea and independent of you?
THE WITNESS: Oh, yes.
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MR. BAKERi Q What steps were taken then
to bring on this idea into practice — reality?
Bagan had prior dealing* with a gentleman named
Ernie DeHart.
Up ontil this time in the spring of 1977 when
you met with those two men, had you met Ernest
DeHmrt?
NO.
Bad any dealings with him?
HO.
Or any of his corporations?
Ho.
Old Mr. Bagan or did Mr. Tenny?
Yes.
What happened?
Bagan brought to our attention the faot that
DeHart was interested in soiling the operation
that he had. We indicated that wo were not
particularly interested in buying his operation,
but since he wanted to leave the area for a
variety of reasons that we — well/ let me start
that over again.
When we met -- when Bagan, Tenny,and I
met and discussed the pros and cons going into
the liquid waste area other than that which his
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company was — Tenny's company was already in —
It was —- we looked over — we looked at the
economics of this thing and saw that it could be
a reasonably profitable operation if the technology
of the operation was dramatically improved} that
is, the paint sludges could be processed to re-
claim the solvent contents.
Was this essentially the operation of what DeBart
was doing?
wo. All DeBart was doing was decanting the
light ends of the — in a drum of paint sludge,
there will be some fairly clean solvent at the
top, murkier material down toward the bottom,
aad as taken down off this lighter solvent, I
could generate a resaleable, reolaimable componentj
but he did no processing in there.
When did you first meet DeBart?
Around Labor Day of 1977.
And where did that meeting take place?
I don't remember.
Prior to this time, did you visit his site on
15th Avenue in Gary?
Ho. We did not see his site until after —- after
I had met him.
Prior to this time. Labor Day of 1977, did you
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hava any axparianca in tha handling of paint
solvents raaidua disposal?
Yaa.
What was that axparienea?
Wall, a aumbar of our clieats ara in tha ataal
drum raelamatioa businass, and thay obtain drums
from various sources which contain varying amount*
of raaidual in thaaa drums, and thay run from
ounces to tons of fallona in any given drum* And
va wara raquirad that by ona of our clianta to
daaign a process for praelaaaing tha drums prior
to thair iacinaration atapa maaat handling of
thaaa liquid vaataa, and for anothar oliant, wa
war* aakad to davalop aoma fundamaatala for a
maana to dispoaa of thaaa matarial* by maana of
ineinaration.
Tou had ao axparianoa in raelaiming any matarial
from aolvanta for aalar ia that eorract?
That*a eorract*
But that*a what you intandad to do with this
oparation?
Yaa. Thara is taehnology that appaara to ba
commaroially availabla. Wa talkad with two firas
thraa firms who manufactura atilla of tha typa
that can ba used in this typa of matarial, and
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thay damonatratad to us, not actual physical
daaoastration, bat IB aorraspondanca and litaratur
aad in a variaty of praaaatatioas that thay had
tha conpatant tachnology to haadla this matarial.
Okay.
MR. LIGHTS Bat cus a aa. Mr. Bakar. Vhan you
•antionad axparianca, had Mr. Lioht baaa involvad
la tha actual doing of it aa conparad to having
tha anginaaring tachaical kaovladga for it?
MK. BAKERs I aaaat axparianca rathar than
knowladga — BOM taehaioaX kaowladga.
MR. LIGHTi Doing right?
MR. BAKERs That'a corract.
Q What atapa did you taka to iaplaaiant
this buaiaaas prior vith »aating DaHart ia buainaai
ia 1S77?
Wa had takaa ao atapa at that point bacauaa wa
wara not aura juat vhara this waa takiag vaa to,
aad wa had -- I had dona aoaa rasaarch to tha
axtaat of finding out whetbar this tachaology
wa wara diacuaaing amongat ouraalvaa waa raaaoaabl<
faasibla, and BO forth, aad thia I had dona. But
up to that point, wa had doaa nothing ia a busiaaai
saaaa.
What traaapirad at tha Labor Day naatiag of 1977?
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I can't tall you on a day by day basis, Mr. Baker.
I don't recollect. I can tall you what happened
between Labor Day and the time we actually bought
a customer list from DeBart*
As best as you can recall, I would like to have
your —
I don't remember any one day.
-- the conversations.
Z don't remember the conversations on a day by
day basis.
Bow long did you meet him over a period of time?
Two or three times.
Okay. Can you relate to us as best you can what
occurred then in your various talks with him?
We met with DeBart to talk over the possibility
of obtaining from him a list of customers so
that we could set up a process where we would
reclaim solvents on a distillation basis, which
was entirely different process than he had
operating* And where he had access to the sources
we felt would be of great benefit to us to have
the entree into the sources for these materiala.
MR* LIGHTi You mean, those persons who
had —
MR. BAKERi Customer list?
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MR. LIGHT: Yaa.
THE WlTHBSSi Basically, Bine* tha oon*«nt
of tha taehnology wa bad in Bind was mo different
than that ha had going at, thara was nothing
raally that ha bad to aall us that vaa of any
valua axoapt tha aooaaa to tha eastoaars which
was by buying that would save na a graat daal
of start-up axpaaaa and ao on. Ha did buy —
ultlaataly, wa did buy a eoupla piaoas of aquip-
aant fro* hisi « small vacuna truck, a dump truck,
a bulldoiar, sosia othar odds and anda. Z oan't
raeall.
what transpired than, wa discussad with
DaBart what ha fait his aquipaant vaa worth,
what ha fait his custoaars list vaa worth, and
what wa finally « wa finally agraad oa a prioa
to ba paid to hia oa a sarias of payaants. Actually,
tha aonay vaa paid to thraa saparata corporations.
Did you rant any proparty froa hia?
Tas. Oa a basis of tha fact that va did not
hava a sita and ha was going to — ha was going
to sail off his custoaar list to soaaona, va fait
that it would intarruption sinca thara war* a
graat nuabar of paopla in tha businass of handling
liquid wasta at that tiaa that by gaining tha
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11access to his customers list, it would save us
a great deal of time and effort.
Did you bay his customers list?
Sir?
Tou bought his customers list?
We bought his customer* list*
Tou bought equipment from his corporation?
Tes* we bought some pieces of equipment.
Aad you rented property from him?
We rented property from him on a six month basis.
The lease was signed to initiate with the date
of the transaction which Z recollect was the
18th of October, but I'm not absolutely positive.
MB. LIGHTt That's 1977?
TU WXTVBBSs 1977.
MX. BAURi Q When did you first visit
the site?
Xarly September of 1977.
What was the condition of the site at that time?
At that time, the site had a large number of
burnt drums spread out over an area that extended
beyond the area indicated that he was leasing
to us and a fairly substantial number of unburnt
drums that were stacked in various places around
the site; that is, the entire site.
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MR* LIGHTi You mean. Mr, DeBart's site or —
THE WITNESSi And it turned out later other
land as well.
Kit. BAKERi Q I'll hand you what has been
narked as Deposition Exhibit Mo* 1. 1*11 as* you
if you're familiar with that site?
Tec. Zt appears to be — it appears to be the
site of the —
Would the are* bordered in red approximate the
area over which drums — fire burnt drums as well
as new drums existed at the time you visited
the site in September of 1977?
Yes, sir, and possibly even further to the right
of this which would be to the north — possibly,
even further to the north*
Ofcay* Mow, the southern — the bottom border is
how you have it held which is nearest you which
is the street called Blaine Street?
Yes*
At that time, did drums exist on both sides on
Blaiae Street?
Absolutely.
That's in September 1977?
Yes, sir*
Were there new drums as well as fire burnt drums?
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Yes, air.
Meat of Blaine Street — eaat of Blaine street?
Yes, correct*
How, what area of this did you understand to be
renting from Mr. DeHart?
Well* we understood that the area we were renting
from him baaed on the — on the lease waa
approximately an acre of land starting at the
south red mark here and extending -« I don't
remember the exact amount — some number of feet
to the north and aome number of feet to the west.
The red marks in that area is marked as a fence
between the disposal site and Connor Engineering?
Z don't recollect that there was a fence there
at the time* Z think, the fence was put up by
Connor at a later date*
But it now exists?
Yes.
Along the red line, you described?
Along the south border, yes.
Can you estimate how many intact drums there were
on the site that were not damaged by fire in
September 1977?
Excuse me. You mean, on DeHart*a area?
I mean, entire site.
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MR. LIGHT: Entire sit*.
THE WITNESS: There were a number of thousand
I don't have an exact account. I never took an
exact account.
Some of these intact drums war* on the «aat and
some on the other site?
Yes.
Total duaping site was used by Mr* DeHart enter-
prises?
Yes.
Is there a concrat* loading dock or structure
on this?
Th«r« is a concr«t« dock on th« D«Bart pi«c« of
property. I can't tall you precisely where.
There is not only a concrete loading dock, but
concrete pavement at ground level in the area
that DeHart claimed to be on his — on the land
that he owned.
MR. LIGHTt Excuse me. Off the record.
(Whereupon, there was adiscussion off the record.)
MR* BAKER: Q What documents were generated
by your business negotiations with Mr. DeHart and
his enterprises?
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Our local counsel generated four documents. Three
of than were bills of sale to three different
companies, and one was a lease involving DeBarts
personally and Industrial Tectonics.
Were any memorandums created relating to these
sales or acquisitions?
Only in normal accounting records set up in the
book for depreciation purposes.
Would you describe Mr. DeBart for us?
Physical description of Mr. DeBart?
Yes.
Mr. DeBart is ̂ approximately five-foot-six,
five-foot-seven,
Bow tall are you, sir?
About my height* I'm five-foot-six-and-a-half.
All right.
He's squat, stocky man. I would estimate that he
probably weighs close to 200 pounds. Square jar,
baldish — a little bit of reddish hair on the
perimeter* Be did not wear glasses. I don't
remember any particular visible scars or anything
like that that would identify him.
How old a man would you say he was, sir?
Middle fifties.
Did anything unusual happen in the course of
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your paying for the material or leaves that you
entered with Mr. DeHart?
Yes, there were several things* First, he was
unable to give us a proper title to a semi-trailer
that we were going to buy from him, and so the
value of that trailer was taken out of the total
aaount that was due to DeHart and that was covered
by a letter to DaHart.
How, this letter and the three bills of sales and
one lease, are they still maintained in the
record of your company?
Yes, at 414 West Lincoln Highway,
what else,happened?
There was also at one point we felt that DeHart
who had promised to give us some assistance in
teaching new employees how to decant the drums
and so forth, had not lived up to his part of the
agreement to give us a few weeks and it was
written out how many hours and so forth.
You had a contract with him and services he would>perform for yon in the new enterprise?
I believe, it was part of the purchase — in one
of the purchase contracts that he would give us
a few hours or some number of hours. I don't
remember the exact number, but it's in the document
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1 to teach us how to do the work he was doing
2 since we knew that at least until such tine as
3 we could get our own site purchased and the per-
4 nits obtained fro* the — whichever state, Illinois
5 or Indiana, that we would have to continue to
e operate on the basis that he operated. It would
7 only be we anticipated obviously because a short
3 term of the lease -- we anticipated to be off
g that site within the scope of the ten of the
10 lease*
n ft How long was the lease to run?
12 I Six Months*
13 ft And did yon in fact «ove your enterprises within
u the tarn of the lease?
15 JL Ho, we did not* And we asked DeBart for a six
16 month extension, and it was granted.
17 ft Do you know where Mr. DeBart'• address was at
is this tine?
19 JL Ho* By this tine all of the correspondence,
20 checks, and so forth were being delivered to
21 Mr* DeBart's accountant. Bill Bicky and Associates
22 on Lincoln Highway in Olynpia Fields.
23 ft Did you receive a custoners list you had sought
24 to purchase fron Mr. beBart?
25 * Yes.
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Qi Did you receive any other documents from Mr.
DeHart besides the customers list?
A, NO.
ft Is the customer list you maintained from Mr.
DeHart, is that maintained in the files of your
corporation?
A. Well, in actual fact, the customer list was not
a formal type list with names and addresses and
so forth, but rather was an --
MR. LIGHTt Off the record.
(Whereupon, there was adiscussion off the record.)
THE WITNESSt It was a series of cards per-
haps two, three dozen of them.
MR. BAKER* Three by five index cards?
JL Yes. I don't think they were index cards but
Rolodex cards, but that type of card.
ft Were those cards maintained in your business or —
X No. Those cards I'm certain were discarded some-
where along the line. We picked up the stuff
on our own forms and records so that they could
be properly filed.
MR. LIGHTi So, they're transcribed then?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
MR. BAKER: Q In what form do you keep your
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list of customers for Industrial Tectonics
Chemical Division?
There are several places in our records where they
are kept. They're kept on a Rolodez file. They
are kept also in a standard file drawer with a
separate envelope or file folder for every
customer *
How many customers does the Chemical Division
have?
Couple doien.
Does this include firms that may have been a
customer at one time and have ceased to be a
customer?
Oh, yes* But the company has been and out of
operation for a year or so now, so all the records
are there, but there are no customers.
You mean, the division of it?
Tes. The Chemical Divi ion.
What corporations, if any, did Mr. DeHart utilise
in his dealings with them?
They used — X don't have the precise name* You
have on your document two of the names that are
correct tfie U.S. Waste — I'm sorry. The Midwest •
MR. LIGHTi Midwest —
MR. BAKER: Q Solvlent Recovery?
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Solvent Recovery waa one and Midwest Waste Dis-
posal* was another. There waa a third company
also, U.S. Surplus Sales Company.
Do you know what business, if any, Mr* OeHart
conducted under the last name?
I was under the impression that he was literally
in the surplus business; that is, he was buying
surplus goods in government auctions and then
reselling them to consumers. Be had an office
and a warehouse somewhere.
Do you know where it was?
Yes. Xt was on Kennedy Avenue. I can't tell you«b
the exact address. Xt was on Kennedy Avenue
in Scherervillef though. Perhaps two miles north
of the junction of — Junction Boulevard and
Kennedy Avenue.
Okay* After the leasing the premises from Mr.
DeHart and buying the equipment and customer
list, what did you or your organisation do at the
15th Avenue site?
Well, we proceeded to receive liquid waste, decant
the materials.
Okay. Before you did that, did you have to do
anything at the site in preparation for your
activities there?
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We had to relocate perhaps 100, 150 drums that
were blocking part of the dock right out in front*
Here these intact druns?
These were intact drums.X
And you relocated then, what did you do with them?
We emptied them and disposed of the contents.
In what manner did you —
We emptied the drum patting them in an accumulator
tank which is under the dock, and then having
accumulated liquid, hauled off to the landfill
under appropriate permits. The hauling was done
by a company called Scrap Haulers, Incorporated,
and it was taken to the CXD Waste Management '
landfill at 135th and just off the Calumet Express-
way.
Were yon present at the site when this drum re-
moval and —
Ho.
Who did it, if you know?
Well, I really don't know specifically who would
have been on the truck that moved them, but the
supervisor that we hired. Dale Robinson, was who
had at one time or another had been an employee
DeHart was somewhat familiar of the activity.
Robinson had been employed by Mr. DeHart previousl:
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Yaa* Z think, basically aa a maintenance mechanic
though.
How did you coma to hira Mr. Robiaaon for your
antarpriaaa?
Wall, wa fait wa had to hava aomaoaa with familiarity
of what had baan doaa thara in tans of handling
thaaa liquids.
Whan you aay "wa", who do you maan, air?
Wall, Eagan, Tanny, aysalf.
So/ what did you do than?
Wa mada tha arrangemanta to olaar with CID to
establish appropriate oradit with than aiaoa
apparently DeHart didn't hava vary good cradit
with them — made arrangements with Scrap Haulers
to aatabliah oradit with the* ao that wa could
•ova thaaa materials off to tha landfill. Wa also
dalivarad tha sludging matarial that oould not
ba pumped in drums and drums that could not ba
emptied to CID in a dump truck that wa modified
and used for hauling.
Whara did you obtain tha dunp truck?
That was ona of tha itana wa purchaaad from DaHart,
but aa Z say, wa had to modify rathar axtaasivaly
to usa it*
Did Mr. DaHart hava titla to aay of tha equipment
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he did supply to yon?
Yes. W* were able to retain valid title to both
the vacuum truck and dump truck.
There ar« copies of thai* truck* maintained in
the office of Industrial Tectonics?
las, sir.
Was there any further written conversation with
you and Mr. DeHart?
There are. Our — Z recollectr but I'm not
positive that there was a letter asking him to
come give us the tiae that we were entitled to.
There was some correspondence relative to the
extent of the lease when April came around and
we were still unable to obtain a site.
Z gather from your discussion .of the work you
had to do to begin your operations, that Mr. DeHar
was no longer conducting this crude solvent re-
covery operation?
Mo, it was an operation. It was operating when
we took over, but simply, he was operating under
cramped conditions which were not necessary.
So, the operation he was going on — going up unti
the date you took it ovar, approximately?
Tes. He may have stopped a few days before, but
basically in order to maintain the customer list.
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is
we continued to service at least some of these
people. There were a few people we found were
not sending in appropriate materials «nd we
stopped servicing then.
Tou say sosie people were not supplying appropriate
Material? What do you mean, sir?
Basically, we were maintaining the customer list
that would be able to supply us with solvents
bearing materials. So, that when we got our
distillation equipment operating we would be able
to distlll the solvents and claim them. Samples
we ran incidentally claimed that the solvents on
the average would run over -- well over the 50
percent of the volume coming in, and we could
expect that somewhere between 15 and 20 gallons
of solvent could be able to recover to each of
the drums that came to us.
From your analysis or experience, do you know
what else was la this material besides the solvent
that you were recovering to sell?
Well, the pigments and resins were typical of
the paint sludges. Zn one group of material,
there was a mixture of resin which are basically
the vehicles you use to paint, acrylic resins
with solvents, and the type of thing we stopped
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dealiag with was; for example, one source was
seadiag out a mixture of water and lacquer. Well,
the lacquer is not reclaimable and the water is
eertaialy ao particular thing that we wanted to
horse with. So, we stopped doing business with
that particular company.
These solveats ia the paiats you were recovering/
were they flammable material?
Yes, low flash point material*
By low flash point, what do yon mean?
Under appropriate test conditions the materials
can be igaited at temperatures below 100 degree
fahreaheit.
Do you know how low of a degree?
Somewhere dowa as low as 50 degrees.
Fahreaheit?
Yes.
Do you kaow what components were in resias aad
sludges left after your solvents was removed?
We had aa iadieation of a typical chemistry of --
people who manufacture paiats, aad I don't remember
the chemistry offhand -- but basically, they were
the resia vehicles that are used ia the manufacturing
of paint.
This includes lead ia some instances?
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Not as a resin but as a pigment, yes. Because
while you know lead is not allowed in household
paint, it is allowed in industrial paint.
And were you getting industrial paint?
The Material we were getting were coming both
froa paint companies and paint suppliers --
industrial paint suppliers*
Mere there any other metals contained in the
pigment —
Ho* Metals that are in the metal oxide, so,
there is an array of metals that will be present
which makes the pigment of any paint*
Chromium would be one of those metals?
Chromium would be one of those metals. Iron would
be one of those metals*
Would arsenic be a metal found in paint?
MX* LIGHT: If you know.
THE WITNESS* I don't know. I don't think
so, but I never heard of it being used as a pigment
MB. BAXEfts Q Did your operation at the
site begin immediately after the signing of the
lease?
Yes.
Now, was Mr. Robinson in charge of that?
Tes.
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Did Mr. Robinson file an application for employment
with your operation?
How, you're looking through a file of
documents. Is that the file of your employee
records for Industrial Tectonics Chemical Division
Yes, sir*
— that you brought with you here today?
Right* Yes, I have here an application that was
filled in by Mr. Robinson.
Does it Indicate a date* sir?
The date indicated is November 7th of 1977,
At this point, was he already at work for you, or
did you — or was it that long before you actually
did start?
I would have to go back and cheek the payroll
rather* But there was a hiatus of a week or two,
but I'm not sure.
Could you describe Mr* Robinson for me, sir?
Mr* Robinson is a man who is about five-ten. Ob,
perhaps 200 pounds, balding, blonde-grey hair.
Last time I saw him, he was wearing sideburns*
Could you describe his age?
Well, I believe he was around 40, but in actual
fact, he looked substantially older than that.
He looked perhaps late forties or early fifties.
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bat X believe, he Bight have bean only 40.
Would you hazard a guess as to the data of birth
shown OB tha application, air?
Ya«, Fabruary 9, 1940. I raeall that I was sur-
priaad at his birth data, and I talkad about it
ona time that ha must have livad a tough lifa to
look aa old aa ha did at hia aga.
Do you know what othar occupation* ha had prior
to hia employment with you or aaid subsequent
to hia employment with you?
Basically, ha vaa working aa a maintananca machani
before. And whan wa shut down tha Chemical Divisi
operation, wa actually kapt hi* on tha payroll*
but ha waa baing uaad ovar at By-Products —•
By-Products Management as a maintenance mechanic
for a numbar of months bafora wa dacidad thara
was no chanoa of our finding tha appropriate sita
to nova our oparation to.
At that point, ha was than actually working for
By-Products but baing paid by your corporation?
Yas* That was in compensation for tha fact that
By-Products was performing certain things for us -
handling our telephones, services, and so on.
Who handled tha obtaining of shipments of your
solvent waste into tha sita?
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1 JL We had both a local and Chicago line coning into
2 dispatch office* in Schererville which was shared
3 with By-Products Management.
4 ft Did your personnel or By-Products personnel handle
s the orders?
6 &> It was By-Prodacts personnel, but this is why we
7 were paying for work that was being done, and we
8 were paying payroll on this man who was doing
9 work for the* in compensation for this.
10 ft Okay. What action did you yourself physically
n perform in furtherance of the operation at 15th
12 Avenue?
13 NX. LICBTs Excuse me. By "you", do you
u mean Industrial Tectonics?
15 KB. BAKZRs I mean, him, Mr. Licht, as opposed
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17 THE WITHESSi Physically, I did very little
is out there. I would go out to the site occasionally
19 to see that things were going along, that the site
20 was being maintained in a resonably neat condition,
21 as neat as it could be for the operation. Made
22 sure that if for some reason, for shortage of
23 personnel or whatever, that a load or two in
24 excess of their handling capability started to
25 accumulate, that the dispatch office was told to
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ba sura that incoming loads wara dafarrad for a
coupla of days to maka sura that thara was no
accumulation on sita. Wa fait thara had to ba
a faw hundrad drums on sita as a backlog, bat wa
did not vant to saa any vast accumulation of
frash natarial on sita. Wa wantad in and oat.
How long did this operation function along thaaa
linas?
Wall, from Oetobar — Novambar of 1977 until tha
and of Juna of 1978.
You hara any idaa of how many barrals a month or
a vaak yea handlad during this tima pariod?
I don't raally. Mr. Bakar. X hava raoords on
that* and now that our bookkaapar is baek on tha
wall list, wa will hava thasa lists within two
or thraa days.
Could you tall ma what typa of raoords wara
ganaratad conoarning tha input and output of this
sita?
Yaa. Cartaialy tha most important raoord was ona
whara wa invoioad our eustoaars, and thara is
an invoica raoord of avary load that was racaivad.
In addition, thara wara most of paopla thara
wara piokup tickatar howavar, in daaling with tha
truck drivars that wa wara daaling with, -wa wara
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dealing with, we ware not always able to get them
to perform your paperwork chorea correctly. So,
we did not always get pickup tickets returned
nor did we get the bills of lading returned as
we should*
By what means of barrels arrived on the site?
They were picked up by our truck drivers and a
van type semi-trailer at the customer's plant and
delivered to Gary. They were unloaded by our
people.
What trucks did the delivery? What trucks did
the delivery?*.
The van was owned by us. The tractor was owned
by another company, and our driver drove it.
What other company owned that?
One of the vans was -- well, occasionally we
rented vans from people. Like I mean, trailers
from tractors from people like Ryder or Transport
Pool or Kenworth, and occasionally we rented a
tractor from By-Products. The vans were our vans.
And these records of leases and rentals are
maintained in your files?
Yes, sir, substantially so. This stuff with
By-Products might have been a little too informally
handled. The other things weren't.
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These files reflect that the work was for your
ohenieal division of Industrial Tectonios as
opposed to your design?
Ye*, because the design division has never rented
any trucks, trailers -- had no reason to.
The design division would never receive the
material that were being received at 15th Avenue?
Ho. Our offices at that tine were over in
Bammond on Bohman Avenue, and Z don't think that
we would have been able to receive thev or unload
the» there.
Was there any other area anywhere that you re-
ceived this kind of material that was received
at 15th Avenue?
Bo, sir.
Mow, you indicated previously, Z believe, that you
received a shipment that had lacquer and water in
it?
Yes, sir.
What was done with that?
It was mixed with the other material and taken
off to the landfill*
Did you ever receive any other material that you
thought was incompatible with your operation?
On one or two occasions and occasional drum was
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brought in that did not appear to be appropriate
and was put back on the truck for redelivery* In
fact, our drivers never brought in inappropriate
material* Occasionally customers would bring
materials in.
On some instances,customers would actually bring
the material to your site?
Yes.
What customers were that, if you know?
Well, there was Consumer Paint in Gary. There
was a company out of Michigan. The name is Rosima
who were basically functioning as a disposal
operation in Michigan, but bad no home for the
paint sludge material they handled. So, they
would bring it in to us, and we would bulk them
and ship them off to the landfill.
Did either of these companies bring you Inappro-
priate material?
Occasionally, Rosima would have drums and take
them back with them.
Did you or your employees as far as you know re-
ceive a drum that was inappropriate to you and
dispose or place on the site?
The instructions that we gave to our employees —
and the instructions were beaten into their heads -
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that if there was a question about something that
they weren't aura to call and let me or one of
the supervisor* know. We did not want to foul
up that site. It was bad enough.
As far as you know, were your instructions followed?
Yes, sir.
So, as far as you know, there was no drum of in-
compatible operation was ever received by your
conpany put anywhere on the site?
That is ay understanding and that is my belief.
Tou indicated your operation operated fairly
smoothly some time in October to somewhere in
June?
Until the end of June.
MR. LIGHTi Of 1978.
MR. BAKER: Q Of 1978, and then what happene<
at that point?
In June of 1978, the legal landfill had been
accepting our sludge bottons and so forth, advised
us that they would be unable to accept materials
for a short period of time unless they got then-
selves reorganised in their operation. They
apparently had a couple of fires at their landfill,
CZO Waste Management, and they were examining how
they were going to handle this situation since
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they were dealing with not only materials that
they were receiving from us bat from three or
four other people and materials that they were
receiving directly from sources.
How, you were sending out two different kinds
of material, is that correct? Liquid in the
tanJca, where was that going?
CZD landfill.
I thought, that was — what did you do with the
recoverable sale?
The recoverable was being shipped to a company
in O9Claire. If it was a straight solvent, that«t
was being shipped to Waste Reclamation Research
in O'Glair, Wisconsin.
And how was it getting there?
It was being delivered in tank trucks.
By what carrier?
By-products Management*
By-Products Management?
Would deliver it. They were paid for the freight.
Okay. Are those records of shipment to O'Clair,
Wisconsin, maintained in a file?
Tea, sir.
What documents were maintained and generated
relative to these shipments?
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Thars war a -- thara was ao»a typa of shipping
papar. Wa did not invoica thaaa paopla. Thay
•ubaittad a raport to us of tba analysis of tha
matarlal, and than aant tha chack along vith tha
analysis.
Did tha analysis include tha volu»a — any ra-
faranoa to tha voluna matarial you racaivad?
Oh, yaa, absolutaly.
and thay would pay you for that aatarial?
Yas.
By ohaok?
Taa, sir.
Tha ohaeJc would ba ratornad oasbad or aagotiatad
through a banking channal?
Thay would ba dapoaitad to tha bank.
Ara racorda of that dapoaits »aintainad?
iras.And account antriaa postad for accounts of tha
•onay?
Yaa. And in addition* occasional druas of mataria]
such as fraon or trichlora arrivad on tha aita,
and thaaa vara aeeuaulatad until parnaps 20 or
30 would ba found; and thay would ba shipped and
sold to a company in Nllwaukaa. Hydrita,
H-y-d-r-i-t-a, I think. It's Hydrita Chanical in
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Milwaukee, Wiaonain. Thara again, thia atuff
waa reported back aa active component* in volume,
and tbay wara paid — it waa paid on tha baaia
of they ara reclaimabla components.
MR. HERMANi What'a tha chemical nama?
I waatad to gat tha chemical nama*
THE WXTHBSS: Trieloridaa. It'a a atandard
dry olaaning solvent, whatever that particular
ia.
MR* BAXKR: Q From whom would you racaiva
that?
Naay of tha eompaniaa that appliad painta would
aaa thia typa of paint for eartaia types of
olaaanpf aad thay would kaap tham aaparatad ba-
oauaa of thair own intarnal problam of miartura
aad ae forth* 80, wa would almost alwaya whaa
wa aaw a drum that aaid fraon oa tha ontaida of
it without fail whaa it waa enackad, it waa holding
fraon.
Fraon ia a aolvant?
Taa.
Thay wara ualag ia aoma capacity othar than ra-
frigaranta?
Yaa, air.
-la that flammabla material?
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HO.
Bow about the other?
No.
The dry cleaning fluid?
Triclore is not flammable, no.
Okay. In addition to these two chemicals, did
you ever receive anything at the site that you
kept other than the freon, the dry cleaning fluid,
and the paint solvent material that you talked
about?
Ho. We really didn't keep those. We atored thoee
on short term basil* processed them, and sent out.
By keep, Z mean return to the person whom you got
it.
No, no, not to my knowledge.
Okay. So, hyou didn't dispose of anything through
this operation other than these materials?
I'm trying to recollect, Mr* Baker. Whether there
was, I don't recollect. When we dissect these
records, all our invoicing, and so forth is
sequential numerically there will be a record of
one point to another point so we will be able to
show you exactly what came in and what went out.
Okay. Other than the company to whom you sold
the freon and dry cleaning material and the O'Glairs,
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Wiaeoaaia firm to whom you aaat tha recovered
aolveata, did you Ball aay matarial out of that
aita to aayoaa?
Taa. Za addition, there war* a number of druma
of off-grade lacquar — varaiah aot laoquar —
varaiah that cama iato ua. Thia matarial vaa aot
good aaongh for a normal paint manufacturer to
ba abla to utilise, however, aome aacoadary
oparatioaa found that thia atuff waa aoeaptabla
to uaa aa a paiat baaa; and ia fact, va aold a
numbar of huadreda, and I don't ramambar tha
axaet aumbar, .but quita a aumbar of huadrada of
thia drum of off-grada varaiah to a ataal drum
reclaiming company hara ia --
Who ia that?
Calumat Container.
Do you know who tha principal* ara ia that company!
A fallow named Joha Jacklia, J-a-c-k-1-i-a.
Aay other matarial aold by your organisation by
thia aita other than thoae matariala you juat
daaoribad tp us?
Hot to my recollection, Mr. Baker.
Ware yon abla ia your aolveat recovery proceaa
to totally empty drums?
Ho.
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Bo, you never sold any drums to them?
Drums were sold. Oh, of course* Thank you.
Emptied drums were Bold to one drum
reclaiming company in the city. Acme Barrel Compan;
What city, air?
Chicago, sir.
Over bar* we do not refer to that aa the city.
Wo emptied — vhan we emptied tha drums, in fact,
Acme Barrel Maintained a trailar on aita — thair
trailer — and wa would fill tha trailar up with
varying numbers of drua\a ranging from about 230
to 250 or mo druaa on aach trailer.
Did you receive money on a per drum basis from
them?Tea.
Did they generate any record to you that indicated
the number of drums they received from you?
Yes, they did. They didn't pay us for all the
drums they received, but — so that what they did
was, for examplet we would ship 242, and they
would decide us to pay us for 220; and they would
only indicate 220 on the check stub or whatever.
So, their records would differ frost yours?
Would not coincide.
Would not from your company?
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Za fact, Z had a •••ting with th« vice-president
of the company at on* point whan they were ahead
of us by many, many hundreds of drums —- several
thousand, in fact, and sat down and had to have
a nerve to nerve debate with them over the fact
that w« were being abused.
Did you generate any internal memorandum with
Tectonics Chemical Division referring to this
problem that they were performing?
I'm certain letters were sent there. We would
invoice them for the drums. They would not
necessarily p«.y us for what we invoiced.
Did you write letters complaining of this problem
that the letters did not correspond?
Wrote letters and finally negotiated a meeting•and settled for part of the way —- for part of
the total amount that was due.
So, you then received a check that received a
portion of the check between your invoices and
their payments?
Right*
Okay. Could you tell me what records were created
by the sale of the — Z believe, it's varnish you
testified?
Varnish that was invoiced out to Calumet Container
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There were times they came to pick stuff up
and times we delivered*
QL In what condition was that material delivered to
that company?
JL It was in 55-gallon drums.
ft Just as received?
JL Tea. It was checked and then closed up again
and then as received,
ft Does your invoice reflect accurately the number
of drums that were supplied to you by that company
JL Uh-hnh.
ft And do their invoices or records reflect that
account of drums they received from you?
JL Well, since they haven't paid us for a number of
them, Z can't say. There is about 100 — I've
forgotten. It was either 160 or 240 drums that
were shipped for them and not paid for and
correspondence back and forth and nasty notes and
so forth and not have been paid,
ft So, there again is a difference between what you
were paid for the number of drums you were paid
for and number of drums your records reflect of
drums that were shipped to them?
JL That's correct. But other correspondence indicate
that we were complaining to them, and in fact.
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that they did not pay us.
Does your documents you received from your cus-
tomers supplying you with the waate materials
you ware processing raflact in any way, shape,
or font tha numbar of barrels?
Yaa.
That you aupply you?
Thay not a1waya did. Our ouatoman indicated —•
auppliad ua with piaeaa of paper with thair
generations, but our driver had a pickup ticket
and a multicopy form where ha waa auppoaed to
leave one cop^ at tha dock and bring back a copy
with tha load.
Okay* Would that document be aignad by any re-
presentative of tha company from whom tha —
Zt waa auppoaed to be, yea.
It did not always oeour in practice?
You're dealing with people on shipping docks and
truek drivers, and it isn't always --
So, sometimes you would have no document either
acknowledged by tha company or generated by the
company reflecting --
Tha acknowledgement would ultimately come in the
fact we would gat paid*
Were these payments from the input put into your
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operation agreed with your account made by your
truck drivers?
Dh-huh.
So, the input records would accurately reflect
what you received in correapondence of your re-
cord* and theirs?
Tea, air.
Now, the other Batter of thing* went out — one
of the other vaate thinga that went out waa in
bulk of quantity of recovered solvents or were
they in barrela?
Ho. The reclaimable solvents went out in bulk*
In bulk, and that waa hauled by By-Products trucks,
ia that correct?
X think, almoat all the time, yea.
How were you able to determine the gallonage of
recoverable solvents that went out any one parti-
cular shipment,, air?
He would depend on the people at the far end who
ran it through the meter.
And they would run it through a meter and an
analyaia and aupply you with a record, and that's
what you relied on, what went out in that area?
Tea.
Another way material left there waa in more or lesa
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liquid sludge that did not include recoverable
•olvents, is that correct?
correct.
How was that transported?
In vacuum tank trucks.
Did you own one of these, or did someone else?
No. These were owned by Scrap Haulers, Incorporated
I believe, they're out of Riverdale, and we paid
thest for the cost of transportation; and at one
point, we paid then also for the dump charge,
but after we got ourselves established with CID,
they didn't have it carried through their books.
They weren't marking it up any, and we paid them
for the freight and paid CID for the dumping
charges.
Did you have any contract reduced to writing with
either the dump or the hauler?
Mo. The only thing we had with the dump were
permits that were issued by appropriate authorities
in Illinois.
Did you ever receive a contract with the dump
for receiving your material?
We talked to them many number of times, and they
said that they did not have contracts with people
such as ourselves. We don't know whether they
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had contract* with direct source customers or not.
Bow were you able to determine the amount of materdal
leaving your site by the method of these vacuum
truck*?
The vacuum trucks were filled approximately full
•o that —
Excuse me, sir.
(Whereupon their waa a briefpause in the proceedings.)
THX WXTHXSSs Ny response is this. Obviously,
ve didn't want to pay for any more than ve were
actually getting out. So* w* responded to our
supervisor on site that the truck vaa essentially
full. The actual capacity of the truck waa approxJ
mately 6400 gallons, and our — the arrangement
with CXD and with the hauler was that if it was
a full truck, it would be counted as 5,000 gallons
because there were times when they would be a
little under* I was told by our supervisor that
almost all the loads that went were full to the
brim and therefore held 53, 5400 gallons.
We were only billed by 5,000 by Waste
Management. We were only billed 35,000 even if
it ran 4800, we were still billed 5,000. There
was no way to meter this material. No point in
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trying to wsigh tha truck in and out bacauaa vary-
ing aatarial would hava varying danaity, ao thara
was no raal faasibla way to aaka aura but ayaball
to *aka aura tba truck was as cloaa to full aa
tbay would gat it*
Wara tha drums that laft thara too tha Acaa drums?
Acaa Barsal, yas.
Wara thay conatad by your aaployaaa?
Taa.
Did you racaiva any documents to whoa tha truck
you vant tha druaa to raflact tha druaa thay
raoaivad?
Wall, as X told you, what wa aadad up with was
Acaa always giving us a lasaar count that wa
•ant up thara, and Z know in ona particular easa,
thay — X want into a truck that was about a third
loadad and took a count and than countad whila
thay had thaa accumulating aatarial drums and
finish that truck. And Z know that count was
acourats, and yat, whan wa got tha racord from
Acaa, it was 20, 30 drums short and Z callad
up scraaaing bloody murdar. And wa said thay
ara not raolaimabla and at laast giva us an
account and say you'ra dadncting for soaathing
rathar than doing it this way. And Z couldn't gat
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that out of them.
Okay* Vow, the drums that want to the freon and
dry elaaning fluid, thay wara aecurataly accountad?
Yes.
And you got aatiafaetory corraaponding counts
back?
Not an awful lot of those. Mr. Bakar, but more
or less sun.
Did anything go out of thia aita through your
oparation othar than what we've talkad about?
Thara wara small numbers of druaa that wara «
where tha materials wara actually jallad in tha
drums that wara not pourable, not decantable,
not anything. And these druaa wara actually
ahippad to a placa — a landfill in Rochaatar,
Indiana* Thay wara not an awful lot of thaau
Bow wara thay ahippad thara, air?
Thay ca»a and piokad tha» up, and wa paid tha«
ao much for tha pickup and tha duaping oharga.
Did thay provida you with any paperwork raflacting
tha number of drums they took?
We paid them on the basis of the number of drums,
and I'm pretty sure that they didn't pay for
lass than — I mean, they won't take more drums
than they got paid for* And we have, you know.
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check copies and »o forth.
Going back to your customers, you indicated that
there was a multiple copy of a pickup ticket used
by your personnel picking the* up?
Yes.
Most of the drums that came in there, you picked
up?
Yes.
Okay. What other documents were created by your
company a copy of which was kept in your file
pertaining to these drums that were picked up
from the customers?
When the pickup was accomplished, the type of
material was indicated on a receiving ticket.
Zn other words, it was — in addition to the
pickup ticket, there was a receiving ticket?
There should have been a receiving ticket, not
all the time but most of the time there was.
There was a receiving ticket indicating reclaim-
able material, dumpable material and so forth.
And that would count the number of drums?
That would count -- well, most of the time Mr.
Robinson was not very good with arithmetic, but
most of the time it tallied out.
what other documents were generated?
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When that information was brought back to the
office and than an invoice was generated.
What office ware the invoices generated oat of,
sir?
Those were generated out of the office which is
now at 414 West Lincoln Bighway.
Where was it then?
Zt was in the basement of my hone.
And who had prepared these invoices?
Delores- Licht.
And is she any relation to you?
Te«, By wife.^
Zs she an employee of Industrial Tectonics?
Yes.
Zs she an officer of Industrial Tectonics?
Tes.
Whet is her position with Industrial Tectonics?
She is the bookkeeper.
As an officer* what is her position different
than bookkeeper?
Yea, treasurer*
She also does the paperwork associated with the
design division of Industrial Tectonics?
Yes.
MR. LICHTj fexcuse me. By "paperwork" —
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THE WITNESSs Accounting and bookkeeping
not secretarial type stuff.
Did you employ any secretary for the design
division or use secretaries for Industrial Tectonics
or for the Chemical Division?
No. Industrial Tectonics payroll only had on it
the people actually out on the site and Delores
Lieht.
Bow about yourself?
No.
You did not receive any salary fro* this?
That's correct*Were Mr. Tenny or Mr* Eagen paid by you?
No, sir•Mr. lagan was then never anemployee of yours?
That's correct.Did he do any work at the site on the 15th Avenue
in behalf of Industrial Tectonics?
In terms of physical effort at the site, never.
Be would occasionally run errands, bring in payrol
timecards so that paychecks could be written out,
and sometimes deliver paychecks.
How many employees did yon ever have at the site
at one time at 15th Avenue?
Seven maximum..
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Savan aaployaas at ona tina?
Tsa,
Za what capacity did thaaa aaployaas work?
Ona was Robinson* tha suparvisor. Another vaa
a aaintananca nan, and thara wara thraa man
working on tha stock. But at any givan ti»a, ona
or two wara abaant. So, wa might bava savan
paopla in a giTan pay pariod, but usually, fiva
or six.
Who wara tha parsons that drova tha van or truck?
Nona of thosa. Ona of thoaa paopla would ba
tha drirar of a duap truck ovar to CZD whan tha
dump truck was fillad up with a eoupla thousand
gallons of glob. Tha non-pourabla aatarial that
would ba driraa ovar to CXD by ona of thosa
aaployaas, and in addition to that, wa had ona
othar nan by tha naaa of Kalvin Mitchall, Sr.,
who was a truck drivar and who paid our pickups
for us and so forth*
Now, what physically did thaaa man do at tha
sita?
All right. Physically, an inspaction would ba
•ads of a particular dru» to varify what it was,
and than tha aatsrials that wara claan anough
would ba dacantad into tha vacuum truck.
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Directly from the drum?
Wall, thay would ba pourad into a — into a vessel
and than into tha vacuum truck, into ona of thoaa
cans alongside the dock. And than —
How big vara thaaa cans?
That was perhaps 1500 — 1500 gallons.
Is there a tank inside tha dock itself or under th
dock itself with an access on the top?
Tes. That tank was for the pourable sludging
material, the non-roelaiaable material.
The raclaimable material then was poured into a —
Separate vessel.
Separata vessel?
Tes.
And that was transferred up into the vacuum truck
owned by who?
Ho. That was then pumped into a — well, the
material would either be handled or a small vacuum
truck, you know, temporary storage, or say for
5,000 gallons accumulated, the matarials would
then be pumped into a tank truck, a regular tank
truck, that couldn't stand a vacuum, and then
that was shipped up to Wisconsin.
Okay. The material was poured into this tank
and was a recoverable solvent. What was left in
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tha drum than?
Thara was tha sludging bottom aatarial, which
would than ba amptied into tha balow dock tank.
Okay. Would that totally ramova tha matarial?
No. Tou oan navar ampty thasa drums complataly.
What was than laft with what was laft on tha
truck than?
It was sant on tha Acma truck and sant up to
Acma.
That would ba tha whola drua?
Tha whola drum including tha rasidual, wnatavar.
Mow, haavy raaidual, thara mayba thraa, four
gallons on tha bottom or might ba a pint on tha
bottom.
What was dona on tha bottom of tha drum?
That was vaouumad out of tha occasionally scrap
haulars. Thair trucks had thair own vacuum
aquipmant, than thay would just suck tha matarial
out of that tank and into tha truck.
And was that tha oparation that was dona on avary
drum containing racovarabla solvants?
Tas. Wall, thara wara soma drums that wara —
wall, yas, on tha racovarabla solvants. That's
right.
All right. Kara thara othar drums that wara
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handled diffaraatly othar than thoaa that war*
baaleally aaalad up and aant on to tha fraon and
dry cleaning plaoa?
Ho. Tha fttuff that lookad Ilka it waa rauaaabla
Ilka tha varniah or — It waa aold to Calumet
Coatalnar* Ma opanad up many drums of a ahipmant
where thay war* litarally aaalad on tha cap, and
we opanad ona drum to verify what It waa and
aaaoMd that tha raat of them wara Ilka that ona
drum. So, that It waa varnlah that waa going to
dry and ao forth, and than --
Okay. Other thaa thaaa drama that want out aub-
atantially tha way thay came in and tha drama
you talkad about whara you pourad off tha re-
olaimabla aolvent and pourad tha sludge Into the
tank at tha dock, what othar oparatlona wara done
with any typa of drums at tha alta?
Thaaa drama with matarlala that warap you know,
jelled In solid.
What waa dona with thoaa?
At I mantionad bafora, plekad up periodically
by tha landfill oparator out of Rochaatar aad
dalivarad to hia landfill.
Okay. Again, thaaa druma would laava your pramiaaa
aubatantially tba way thay oama -- tha aama ooaditi
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they came la?
Yes.
How did they get to the dump truck full of stuff?
There are certain bottom materials that would
act pour, aad yet, we couldn't take aad sand 20,
30 gallons of glob to Acme Barrel. So, we would
•crape or let these drums set oa top of these —
the reason we rebuilt this dump truck after we
bought it was to get ourselves some rails oa top
so we could put the drum on top and let the stuff
oose its~way out of the drum*
Zato the dump truck?
Zato the dru»p truck. Zt's oae thing to sead up
to the dump reclaimer a gallon area five or six
gallons. Zt's another thing when you sead the*
half a drua. He resents it.
Then what was doae with these?
These were taken to CZD Landfill.
Your dump truck?
Za our dump truck, and we were invoiced oa what
we seat up there, aad --
Bow did you determine the volume being sent there
ia this manner?
Early oa in the game, they took measurements of
the truck aad agreed to a volume that was —• that
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was about what the truck held. Actually, the
truck held a little bit more than -- than we
usually shipped -- a little bit acre than we
were billed for, but one of the fellows —- it
sight have been Eagen — went up there and pro-
vided them that there is going to be a little
bit of stuff left dn the bottom so that the
actual capacity we were billed for on that truck
was approximately 10 yards of material, and the
truck actually held 12 or 13 yards.
MR. LIGHTi Cubic yards?
THE WITNESS: Cubic yards of material. And
he, our drivers, were instructed to be sure that
they took along a hoe and, you know, rake the
thing down, make sure that we didn't end up taking
ten yards out up there and bringing five yards
back.
MR. BAKER: Q What records, if any, are
maintained in the files of Industrial Tectonics
according to these?
Invoices from CID. There was supposed to be bills
of lading and so forth, but they didn't always
get generated. But you can believe the bills from
CID came through.
And there would be a corresponding check Industria
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Tectonics paying that bill?
Absolutely.
Ware there any wastes taken to any other place
other than those that you mentioned?
X don't recall/ Mr. Baker. When Z go through the
records over this weekend and into next week, Z
will and as we make those necessary tabulations
for you, Z will be able to tell you precisely. Z
don't recall any, but I can't say with absolute
certainty that anything ever happened. Z didn't
see every invoice that went out* Z didn't see
every billing ticket* Tou know, Z can't say4.
that Z saw, but maybe the majority of these things
Were any drums taken to any place other than
some waste disposal company or some chemical
company or some container company somewhere?
MR. LZCHTi You mean, other than Acme, is
that your point?
MR. BAKERs Q Ko, other than barrel recovery
place or some other company?
Well, there were some drums that went to landfill.
Some went —
To improved landfill?
Yes. Either CZD or this place down in Rochester.
The stuff that went to Rochester was always the
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Jallad aatarial. Tha stuff to CIO would not —
it normally would not taka drum* to CID, but not
to aay that occasionally a drua didn't and up
at tha bottom of that dump truck*
Okay.
Whan Z say 'occasionally*, I'm not talking about
any significant nuabar, but —
Ara thara aay othar placas othar than CID that
that bulk sludga want to aithar by duap truck or
vacuua tank?
No, I'a not.
Would you ballava all that aatarial that laft that
•ita want to CZD or aoaa othar approved landfill?
Want to aithar CID or CZD bacausa that was tha
only plaea our drivars wara to taka tha stuff. Z
had no control ovar scrap haulers, but Z know,
Z got scrap haulers froa — for fraight and CZD
for duap.
So, tha only place your drivers wara to taka tha
sludge was to CZD?
That's corraet.
Tha drivar's did not, though, aaka records for
•vary trip avaa avary trip thay aada to CZD?
Thara wara snpposad to ba raoords, but I will not
guarantaa thara was a racord for avary ona. But
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I mean* instructions to those people out there
where it didn't male* any difference if we lost
our fanny on a particular load. Zt was knowledge
that it vas to be dons right or they were fired.
ft As far as you know, your instructions wars follows
a. As far as Z know, th*y wars followed.
ft That businsss in O'Clair, Wisconsin* was the only
sits you took the reolaimable solvents that w«r«
generated?
i. That Hydrits for other reclaimables. Solvents —
the ohlorinatsd Mtsrial such as frsons and so
forth, which w«r« rsclaiaabla solvents wsnt to
Hydrits. Othar raelaiaabls solvsnts want to
0'Glairs, Wisconsin.ft Okay. Tha matsrial that went to Hydrits w«nt to
th*» in substantially ths saas forst as it was
whan rscaivftd by you?
JL Tss. w« night sad up with two half dru»s marksd
parachlorSf and wa would thsn decant on« into
ths othsr. Thsrs was no particular bansfit as
to sending thw a second drum. Zt would cost us
a drum and so we would, you know* condense these
things. There was no sense in sending 50 drums
of which half were full and half were half full.
ft Did this combining operation leave a drum with
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any residue in it?
Ho. Or if there were any residues like there
might be some sludge — X never saw it, but
I'm surmising —• there might have bean some rust
or something like that because basically this is
what this stuff is used for that would end up
at the drum reclaiming plant; and they would wash
it out and handle it along with their normal
sludge disposal problems.
Mr. Lichtf X hand you what has been marked as
Deposition Exhibit 2 and ask you if you can
identify that?.
Tes. It's a photograph which appears to en-
compass a portion of the site on 15th Avenue.
Okay. Does that depict Blaine Street we talked
about previously?
Tes.Okay. What is Blaine Street on that? Is that
Blains in the upper part moving from right to
left?
It's the unimproved dirt road appearing on the
top part of the photograph and in down on a
slight diagonally.
Does the concrete dock appear on this photograph?
Yes.
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Where is it located?
Itls loeatad approximately one-and-a-quarter incha
dovn from th« top of the photograph and approxi-
•ataly three-and-a-half inches from the right-hand
side of the photograph.
Okay. Can you give me the location of approximate
what drama, if any, on tnia site were from tha
operation of Industrial Taetoaics?
Tea* Tha drama that I'm sure that w«r« part of
what we put in there are the drama that are
immediately adjacent to that dock — immediately
to the west of the dock. There is another group
of drums —
MA. LXCHTs. Bxcuae me. Would yon establish
the direction of thifl, please?
TBK WXTHlSSi Blaine Street is — sectionally
runs north and south. The left-hand side of the
picture is north. The right-hand side of the
picture is south. We are looking from west to
east.
MX. LIGHTi The top of the picture is east,
and the bottom is west?
THE WITHBSSi Right. The left is north and
right side is south. Tes.
MR. LIGHT: Thank you.
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THE WITHBSSi There is a group of drums that
arc set in a curved linear form on th* right-hand
portion of the picture, which ara drums.
Mft. BAKS&I Q What is contained in those
drums, if yon know?
Some of those drums, I know* contain a mixture
of solvents and acrylic plastic.
Does that differ than th* aatarial you normally
recaira?
Y««. Thara is oaa grouping — and I'm not sura
that is entirely that material there — but
there is one group of material which is about
•00 drums which were obtained from a cheaical
company that advised us first of all that thematerial was resaleable but couldn't go sailing
the second grade material. And it -- if not
reclaimable, it was — was very readily distilled
to resins — separate the acrylic from the solventi
and both the solvents and acrylic resins would
be highly soluable*
As far as you know, those drums appear to be
intact and stacked in the lower right-hand portion
of this site depicted in the photograph that is
somewhat substantially or, well, perhaps an inch
down the picture from this* curve linear stack that
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you shoved us. Ara those drums from Industrial
Tactonic*?
I think, those drum* ara left over from DeSart's
oparation.
How, tha drums immadiataly to tha laft of that
curve linaar stack ara ia tha araa of tha dock,
ia that right?
Thay ara right bahiad tha dock oa tha ooaorata
paTad araa.
Za those drums (indicating)?
Ara dafinitaly materials we put in there*
How, tha little stack that saams to go in exactly
east-vest liaa — immadiataly to tha north of
that staok and to tha vast, ara thosa drums —
this littla pala down here — they*re stacked
approximately four drums vide, three drums high,
vhioh are stacked ia aa east-vest direetioa?
I'm aot oertaia vhether thosa ara our drums or
not. As Z iadioated to you previously, as sooa
as ve have revieved our tally sheets aad records,
ve'll be able to ideatify for cartain.
Z vould point out that DeHart laft
aa eaormous amount of the drums back in that area ••
behind tha area that ve vere working. Unfortunately,
va did not taka picturas at tha time* We anticipated
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being there six months.
Did you or your employees ever decant DeBart's
drumming process through your operation for
whatever solvents could be recovered?
I'm aura we did clean up a few of hia drums be-
oauaa he did not leave appropriate areas ia froat
of toe dock* So, I know vary well we had to
have disposed of a number of drums*
So, there vas some number of gallona of solvents,
some number of gallons of sludges, and some number
of drums seat to this reclaimer that would aot
have been covered by your customer invoices?
Yes.
Aad you don't know what that number is?
Wot very many, but X can — I'll try to find out.
X have ao record of it, no, but it caaaot be
very much.
Did you make any arrangement with Mr. DeHart
concerning say of the drums oa the premises?
Was that expressly covered by aay agreement verbal
or written?
MR. LIGHT: You Bean, the drums that belonged
to DeHart?
MR. BAXXRt Q The drums oa the side at
the time your lease began, did you have aa agreemt
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about thoaa drum* with Mr. DaHart?
X don't raaaabar any «uch agraaaant. Mr. Bakar.
And I know that thara la nothing raducad to
writing, and Z don't racall any varbal agraaaanta
with him. All that wa propoiad to do with that
aita waa to uaa it on tha Boat taaporary baaia
until wa wara abla to find anothar aita and
gat tha naeaaaary parmita for aatting up our
dlatillation.
Aa far aa you know, did any of your aaployaaa
daal with tha fira daaagad dmaa on tha aita?
Bo, abaolutaly not. Thay had no raaaon to or
aaad to.
Thara was no naad to inoraaaa your aoeaaa to
operation?
Hot to ay kaowladga. Mr. Bakar.
Ho BOTaaant of any fira danagad druaa wara givan
to you? Mo instructions wara givan to your
avployaaa? iTha inatuetioaa wara, "Kaap your hands off tha
fira daaagad druaa.*
And aa far aa you know, your instruction* wara
followed?
Thay wara followad*
You indieatad, I baliava, that thia oparation ran
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from October until approximately Jane with very
little accumulation of drum* at the site?
Correct.
You indicated a couple of truckloads -- vanloads?
Tee, maybe.
Could you give me a number of drums that would
encompass?
A typical load coming in would run -- well. It
ranged anywhere from 20, 30 to the occasionally
SO. But they would average in — probably in
the seventies.
So, would it be fair to say then that through
this time period from October 1977 until approxi-
mately June 1978 the accumulation of drums through
your operation of the site would be approximately
160 plus whatever?
Hover more than a couple hundred to 150 on the
outside.
You indicated when there came a time of that
operation changing in June of 19787
June, 1978, Waste Management indicated that they
would be temporarily unable to accept the low
flash point materials from us and told us that
they would advise us in a short time -- couple
weeks, three weeks — as just how they were going
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to handla the mattar.
What changos, if any, vora mado in your operation
at tha 15th Avanua aita?
At that pointt wo advisad our customers that wa
vara unabla to diapoaa of theso materials because
of tha probiana at CXD and that aa soon as wa
had some response at CID that we would advisa
them, and wo alao asked thorn not to send us
anything if thay could possibly avoid us and asked
us not to pick up anything if thay could possibly
avoid it* At that point, ona of our major
customers disappeared never to bo soon from again*
Who was that?
Austolaum Companyt out of Bvanston.
Hot disappearing you don't moan it/ though?
Old rust makaa a lot of paint. Wa didn't ttaa
any mora paint from thorn.
MR* LIGHTi Thay coasod to ba your customars?
THB WXTHBSSs Othar oustomors hold back
accumulating. Soma companias wora vinabla, and wa
accaptod somo from companias that waro unabla who
wara accumulating tham.
Do you know what companias thosa wora?
Thosa ara listad, but Z can't giva tbam offhand;
but I can gat tham.
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Did those policies or method of operation change
again?
Yes, because we kept badgering Waste Management
for a response oa whan, "What can we do? Will
yon take it ia drums? will you take it balk?
Will you do anything?* Tha raaponaa was to gat
put off further and further, and wa finally aadad
up cutting back to tha point of stopping tha
oparation completely and loalng tha whola benefit
of tha customers liat wa apaat a whola lot of
money for tha yaar bafora.
What ti»a pariod did you obtain thaaa solvents
with tha aorylio resins that ara now stored at
thia aita?
July or August of '78.Did thara come a tiaa whan you bagan racaivlng
ahaaiieala at tha aita in anticipation of baing
abla to taka aatarial to oaa of your landfills?
Wa took tha material from tha -- from tha acrylic
•atariala in on tha basis of tha faot that wa
had daeidad that even though we did not have a
proper site available to us for our distillationsystem, that we none the leea filed with both the
State of Illinois and the State of Indiana.
In the eaae of Illinois on a fictitious
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site, that the site exist* and sitting in an
empty building is for a sale but inappropriate
to our particular need, but nonetheless put it
on that particular street corner and also took
with our management of By-Products to put the
second operation to the State of Indiana basing
it on By-Products Management site in Scherervill<
We filed that document with the State of Indiana
in early August of 1978, and when it became
very obvious that the landfill people were
playing games, and we filed about the sane time
with the State of Illinois.
The State of Illinois rejected the
permits for a variety of reasons, and the State
of Indiana finally issued a permit the following
March of 1979. However, one of the provisos in
their permit to us is that we would have to get
approval of local authorities in Schererville
for building permits and so forth and so forth,
and Schererville would not issue the permit,
what operations did you anticipate in operating
on the acrylic material that you received and
stored at the site?
We anticipated that we would be able to put up
our distillation unit. Hopefully, put it up on
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the back portion of the Schererville site iaolatin
it from any of the By-Products buildinga or any-
body else's buildinga, and processing that as
the vary first material that want into our still*
In othar words, you planned to distill this in
your still?
Right, and the elaan still was going to ba
aorylio material bacansa tha infomation we
were told by tha chemical company was that thay
would ba vary iatarastad in examining material
aftar it had baan distilled with view of buying
back tha resins.
Did your company perform any analysis or have
any alaysis performed on this bahalf of tha
material in thasa acrylics?
Ho* sir. This was a big national company,
and wa presumed that thay ware going to more
or lass tall us tha truth.
Who was that?
Ashland Chemical, Calumet City.
Did you perform any othar analysis on incoming
material to your site or have it performed by
anyone?
Yes. Analyses ware performed by CID laboratories
in order to gat tha permit.
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That was on — want into tha company or what want
into tha waata aita?
Waata aita*
Right, but you parformed two othar taata from
what you raoaivad?
Right. Tha only taat wa know wara parforaad on
what wa racaivad wara dona by Waata Raclaaation
in O'Clair on aolvanta that want to tham, CID on
aludga liquid, aolid aludga want to tham.^
Soma taatiag on fraon and --
By Hydrita, of oonraa.
Ara thoaa taat raaults in your fila along with
tha iavoioaa and billa?
Yaa.
Mow, by Juna, 1978, you had axeaadad tha tarma
of your initial laaaa with Mr. DaHart, ia that
trua?
Right.
Did you oonaaquantly antar into * aaoond laaaa
with Mr. DaHart?
Ha got a ranawal of our firat aix-month laaaa
for an additional six montha.
Whan waa that?
Nail, actually aftar tha data of tha axpiration
of tha first laaaa, which ia ratroactiva and
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paid a couple months back.
Did you deal with Mr* DaHart.personally or was
this by letter?
NX. LIGHT: Do you recall?
THX WITNESSi Ton know, I don't reaeaber.
At on* point/ ha cam* over to tha —- ay office
was in Haaaond, and at ona point, ha caao to
piok up soae rant ehacks but that Bust hava baan
in January or February of 1978. I don't reaeaber
seeing him after that.
Wara all oorraspondanoa of Mr. DaHart aaintainad
in tha filas of Industrial Taotonios?
Tas. Our corraspondanoa of everything wa sant
to hi» is there*
Do you hava any daalings with Mr. DaHart eoaearning
his othar sita for a aiailar operation in Gary?
Mever. Absolntaly not.
Hava you avar baan to that sita?
Once. I went there some tiae before his fire
when he was in operation.
Would it have been prior to August 1977?
X don't reaeaber when his fire was, but «
And what was the occasion of going to the site
at that tiae?
It was — if you recall, I told you that Eagan,
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Tenny and I had talked earlier In the year, 1977,
about this operation, and Z want over to see
vbat it was that ha was doing there*
What was the condition of the aite at that time,
air?
He had a reasonably neat appearing operation.
Be had an enormous amount of drums stored oat
in the back acre*.
Bow tall were his drums?
Most of them were lined on the sides which is
not aa improper way to store them. Most of them
were lying oa^their sides, as Z recollect them.
Do you know whether or not he was pouring sludges
from any of his drums on the back — in the pit
of the back of that tract of 7400?
Z couldn't see any. Zt was up near his dock. Z
couldn't see what was there except in the front
Z oould see.
Do you know if any drums or sludges on the other
side of 15th Avenue?
Mo, sir.
Was any type of activity conducted by your
employees?
There was absolutely not. To my knowledge,
there was never any pieces, never anything buried
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on that sits.
Was the second lease or renewal — the first
laaaa was radnead to writing as far as you know?
It seems to me, it was, but I'm not absolutely
certain of that. It seem* to me that we had a
local counse), William Moran, draw up these docu-
ments, and it seems to me that it was done on
a formal basis.
MX. LIGHTi But in any way, you paid him
rent?
THE WITNESSs Tea, we did.
Mft. LICBTs And paid the rent for how long?
THE WITNESS* Six more months.
MR. LIGHTt Tou don't mind the interruption?
KR. BJUCERs No.
Q You're still of the company is still on
the site?
Tes, sir*
When is the last time you paid rent to Mr* DeHart?
The end of the lease, October of '78.
When was the last time an employee of your Company
or yourself visited the site prior to the institut
of this lawsuit?
Well, to my knowledge, there was no business
transacted on that site after January '79. It
or
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might have been that a couple few loads were
brought in, but again, I can't pin down, you
know, when somebody might have gone over there.
Tour records would reflect any shipment of drums
into that site to your company?
Yea* Yes, we would have invoiced those. He
would have invoiced the stuff that came in.
I believe^ you described in detail for me the
procedure with respect to loads picked up by
drivers* Can you do the same for me for loads
directed by — loads directly to the company?
By the customers? Yes, there was to be a bill
of lading for the truck drivers and supposed
to be a receiving ticket for drivers from what
was on the load.
Receiving ticket would have been made out by an
employee on your site?
Yes.
Was that done in all cases?
I hope so.
If there was no receiving ticket or no bill of
lading* would there be any way the company could
be billed for that delivery of that material?
NO.
Based on the receiving tickets that you did have
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which may or may not reflect all the loads direotl;
were bills made out to the companies who delivered
the material?
The invoices were submitted to people, and generally
speaking as far as Z know, they were paid*
Can you describe for ae, please, what kinds of
companies, customers, other suppliers that would
have received invoices from Industrial Tectonics -
excuse me, strike that.
Ton indicated, X believe, that your
company used numbered invoices, is that correct?
Yes.
Were these sequences unique for the Chemical
Division, or were they sequentially to the
Chemical Division itself?
No, the Chemical Division despite objection by
my accountant were kept completely divorced —*
separate bank accounts, separate colored checks,
everything was maintained in completely separate
activity.
So, the Chemical corporation --
Division.
Division of your corporation whose sole place of
activity, whose office function of By-Products
may have been at 15th Avenue site?
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Wall, wa did tha aaaa businass of of flea sitas — -
Olympia Fiald, Chicago Haighta. But as far
aa baiag activities, physieial activitias, of
that chamical, thay vara all accomplishad at
tha 15th Avanua aita*
For whatavar pickup da 11 vary aita waa?
Mo, to or from that aita.
Okay. Could you daaeriba for ma tha kind of
paopla who would raoaiva invoicas from Industrial
Taotoaioa Chaaioal Division?
Cartainly. A. Aaaricaa Caa.
f Z maaa ouatomara of waata raeipiaata of
anpty druas, gaaoliaa ooapaaiaa, if you did that.
That1 a tha kind of thing a z*» iataraatad ia.
Z don't undar stand.
Classifications of paopla.
Wall , coMpaaias?
Wall, yon would sand invoicas to all customars tha
would provida you with tha raw wasta drums?
Tas, paopla such aa tha can manufacturing oompaaia
Okay. But tha customars aa — a customar aupplyin
drums of waata ia sufficiaat for that. You would
giva invoicas to all customars who would supply
you drums of wastea?
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Correct.
Tou would give invoices to companies whoa you
aant barrels of the reclaimable materials?
MR. LIGHTx Solvents.
MR. BAKER: Q Such as freon and the dry
cleaning fluid, correct?
In some of those cases, my recollection is -- it
was little far back. My recollection is that
Waste Reclamation actually reported and sent us
a cheek for what they read their analysis metered
and then there was no basis for us to invoice
them.
That was —
That was reclaimable solvents.
That was reclaimable solvents. Tou did not re-
claim solvents and — there was no basis, we
had records of shipment, and there may have been
an invoice there, but we could not invoice
because there was no basis for —
Did you invoice the company whom you sent freon
and dry cleaning fluids?
Ho, sir. We had to wait until they received
and sent a check.
You sent basically empty barrels?
we invoiced them, yes. Same basis.
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I believe, you disposed of son* varnish product*?
Varnish -- reuseable varnish that was invoiced
out also.
That was invoiced out?
Calumet Container in Haaaond.
The other products that want out of there resulted
in invoices from you instaad of to yon?
Yes.
You had to pay for people to taka this?
Corract.
Can you think of any othar instance where you
invoiced soae coapany on bahalf of the Chemical
Division?
z can't. I'm sorry.
Anything else that would have been expenses to
your operation such as electricity or?
Oh, yeah, sure. There was payroll, power, fuel.
We were paying off soae equipment that was
purchased.
Did you purchase any equipment from anyone other
than DeBart or DeHart's corporation?
Yes. Yes, sure.
What?
He purchased bulldozers from Mackey Ferguson,
it was a frontend loader. We purchased a rebuilt
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Bobcat which ia alao a froatead loadar from Atlaa
Material Handling. We parehaaad a ooupla of van
trailara from Pine Trailar Salaa in Chicago*
MR. BAKERs Off tha record.
(Whereupon, thara was adiacuaaioa off tha racord.)
THE tflTHESSt Thara ara obviously other
things thara. Thara ara tiraa and tira repairs
and a vhola mirad of thinga that one expects to
run money oa ia operating a business.
Za thara any other office building or facility
of building maintained at this 15th Avenue site?.t.
Tea. Thara were two van-type trailers, not* you
know, vana without tha wheels, you know, sitting
oa their chassis that were oa tha site* One of
the* houaed aoaie equipment, and oaa of them
housed the desk and heater and it was where we
had a telephone coming iato tha site aad stored
things like gloves aad boots, things of that sort.
Could you tall ma where they ware located la
Exhibit 2?
Za Exhibit 2? Tha one trailer is still visible.
Zt is immediately east of the curve liaaar group
of drums aad that housed the equipment. The other
trailer ia no loager visible* Zt waa located
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in an area which is partially empty and partially
blocked by drums.
What happened to that trailer?
It was stolen.
When you »ay, "ran"* do you mean an enclosed
bodied trailer, or do you mean a self-powered true);?
Ho, no. A van-type trailer. A semi-trailer.
Okay. Did you also have vans* meaning self contained
trucks like — silk tracks?
MO.
So, when you say "van" throughout this conversation
you aean an enclosed body?
44 trailer/ eight foot high — so many feet high
that is pulled by a tractor.
Thank you.
Do you know whether or not Mr. Teany
was oa this site during the summer of 1979?
Z doa't know whether he was or not, but I would
see no reason why he would have been. I don't
know.
Were you aware of any activities of drums on the
site operated by Industrial Tectonics during the
summer of 1979?
Some varnish drums were shipped to, were picked
up, and delivered off the site to Calumet Contrain<r
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but Z don't remember the exact data. I aould
find tha invoice and tall you.
So, someone from Industrial Tactonica moved drums
off tha site to Calumet Container during the
summer of 1979?
I didn't tell you whether it waa summer, but
some time in '79, yea. I recollect there was
some, and I oan't tell you how many. I don't
knov if it waa 20 or 80 or what number in-between.
Do you now remember any delivery of drums to
the site on --
Mo. If there .were any delivery of drums in '79,
very early in the year, January, February, and
I don't recollect. We had no employees beyond
that period of time. Robinson at that time
had even left the By-products operation, as
I recollect, and I remember some conversations
with Jack saying that he wanted
to buy some of the varnish, and I told him we
didn't have anybody to deal with it.
Other than yourself and your wife, who is the
treasurer of Industrial Tectonics and tha book-
keeper for Industrial Tectonics Chemical Division,
were any other officers or — or employees,
officers of the corporation involved in the
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Chemical Division operation?
Ho. The only other officer i» David Licht,
in his operation -- and he's functioning as an
officer of the company and is general counsel
to the company, but all of his are Hew York
based until the visit we made to the site
several weeks ago. He had never seen the operation
He had never seen the site prior to the institu-
tional lawsuit?
That's right.
Did any employee of your other division of
Industrial Techtonica perform any work on behalf
of the Chemical Division?
The Industrial Tectonics employees are all the
people that we have talked about — the people
on the site or Delores Licht. There are no
other employees. The activities that are
carried out under the of Inudstrial
Techtonics and the equipment activities are
basically complimentary to the engineering
company that I own, and since we don't want to
run, for example, if a piece of equipment is
to be bought for a company, an energy company,
we don't want to run through the engineering
company client's books. So, we run it through
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Industrial Tectonic* books for the clients and
Deloros handled the paperwork.
So, other than you and Delores, there are no
employed by Tectonics Chemical Division for the
other division?
That's correct.
What happened to the equipment that Industrial
Tectonics purchased for this use of the site?
The dump truck is on site at the present time
or adjacent to it on the road. The vacuum truck,
the Bobcat* and the Caterpiller frontend loader
were moved over to the By-Products management
site in Sohererville.
Are they being utilised by that company over
a day to day basis or being stored?
Basically, they are being stored, but, you know,
they use them sometimes — from time to time.
Does that constitute the operational business
use by Industrial Techtonics of an industrial
site?
The two vans are over at ftchererville also.
There was a device for deheading drums that
was bought and never used that I'm » I'm sure
is over by By-Products Management. I can't
think of other things* There are other things
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we purchased by DeHart that were actually never
delivered, that were actually supposed to be
ours. There are a number of tanks that ware
not on the site that ha had somewhere else, that
ha was supposed to deliver and never delivered.
Tha Chemical Division of Industrial Techtonics
has axistad sines sons tims in '77 until today,
is that corrsct?
TSS.
And th« rseords* chscks, and so forth of that
division havs basn maintained separately from
your other business?
Tes, sir.
And whore are they housed/ sir?
414 West Lincoln Highway is where they are.
And where within that site are they housed?
Within the offices of Industrial Techtonics and
Charles Licht Engineering at the lower level "
of the building there and they're in so»e file
cabinets.
It takes sore than one file cabinet for the
records of this?
No, it really doesn't, but Delores has the files
in a number of drawers — in a number of, I
think, two adjacent file cabinets.
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Apart from your permit application! and corres-
pondaaca —• your correspondence with tha state*
various atata agencies, your invoices, and
•hipping records with your customer*, tha correa-
poadaaea with your O'Clair, Wisconaia* raoipiaata
of tha recoverable solventa, your correapondance
and bookkeeping eatriea and invoices to tha
Acme Barrel* your billa and checks paying the
bill* from tha disposal aad traaaportatioa companies
for tha disposal of tha material* your leasa
with DeHart, aad three billa of sale, tell me
what tha records of Xaduatrial Tectonics Chemical
Divlaloa conaiat of?
Wall, there are paid invoices for all tha equip*
ment supplies aad m&acellaneous activities*
insurance documents.
Payroll records?
Payroll records.
Employee records?
Employee records. Well* I have thoae with me*
yes.
What elae* if anything?
Well* there are large amounts of paperwork* and
frankly* Mr. Baker* I have not been in thoae
files for a long time. And I never really did
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90 in the files with any depth since Delores
Licht is « very competent record keeper and
bookkeeper, and I'm sure that the records are
there in totality that1* necessary to run the
business.
Did you ever have any relative of DeBart on your
payroll?
Marvin DeBart, Ernie DeHart's son.
Could you describe him for us, please?
Well, he's a younger version of his father. He's
short, maybe a little bit taller than his father,
•aybe five-seven. Probably weighs 165, stocky -•
huskily built fellow, red hair, balding. X
really, you know, as far as detail of his eye .
color or anything, I don't know.
Did he wear glasses?
Mo, I don't believe he did.
Do you know what occupations he had other than
working for you?
Well, he worked for his father for a while, but
they had their falling out and he worked for
us. He worked for By-Products Management after
our operation had shut down.i
Okay. In what capacity did he work for you?
He worked on the dock emptying drums.
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Under the supervision of Robinson?
Under Robinson.
Bow long did he work for you?
Hot vary — three, four months*
Did ha come in at tha and of your aatarprisa or
beginning?
Ho, toward tha middle. Ba was not tha beginning
two, thraa months, four months into it that ha
oama to work for us and than laft bafora tha and
And want immediately to By-Products?
X don't remember if ha want immediately to
By-Products*
Do you know what other occupation he had?
Wall, Z just scanned his personal form a moment
ago — a coupla hours ago. Seems to ma that
Z recollect that ha was high school education.
Za that tha same educational background that his
father had or don't you know?
Z don't know his father's background at all.
Was ha married?
Z believe, ha was.
Do you know whathar ha had any children?
Z don't know.
Do you have his forms there in your files there?
Tea, okay. Yes, here it is. Yes, Z have his
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fora*, and I'm looking at both the application
for employment that he filled out on November 29,
1977, and also his withholding certificate,
federal and state.
And what was the date on those?
12-28-77. On the federal, November 29, 1977,
and on the state, December 28, 1977.
How many dependents did he list on there?
Three.
Anywhere on the form does it list the names of
those dependents?
No, sir*
Does it indicate the age of those dependents?
No, sir.
Does it indicate the age of those dependents?
No, sir.
MR. BAXBR: off the record.
(Whereupon, there was adiscussion off the record.)
MR. BAKER: 0 What association did Mr.
Began and Mr. Teaay have with Industrial Tectonics
Chemical Division?
When the chemical operations were established
basis for doing this was that Tenny and Bagan
were each going to put in an amount of money
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and Industrial Tectonic* was going to put In
a slightly larger amount of the money to be
able to finance the Initial purchase of the
customer list and certainly the equipment that
had to be purchased from the DeHart's or from
other sources*
What forir was this business to take a new
corporation or Industrial Tectonics?
Industrial Tectonics, Z was presided to let
this industrial corporation to come in auspicious
of Industrial Tectonics simply because we know —
because we were going to have to go into the
outside investers to put in distillation equip-
ment and certainly strick the relative to blue
sky.
MR* LICETi Flooding of new capital.
THE WlTWESSs Capital and blue sky laws
which were existing — seen low. It was not a
very positive corporation that would have more
laid on it* So, this is why
I was persuading Industrial Tectonics to become
the base for this thing.
Did Mr* Tenny put any money into this enterprise?
Mr. Tenny put money in* Mr. Bagan bought in*
How much?
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They •*ch put in about 511,000 — maybe a
little — maybe 11 or $12 , 000.
And Industrial Tectonics put in any money?
Industrial Tectonics supplied a total of -- well,
Delores Licht put in about 5,000 as a loan to
Industrial Tectonics, and then Industrial
Tectonics put in a total of about $20,000.
The agreement that was never consumated was
that each of them were going to put in 15,000
and Industrial Tectonics was going to have to
put the 20 in and after that, each would own
30 percent of ̂ the company and I would retain
ownership of 40 percent of the company*
They paid that money in with no agreement
having been reduced to writing?
There was an agreement that was never signed.
The agreement existed in an unsigned form in
Industrial Tectonics?
Yes, sir.
How much did you pay Mr. DeHart for the customer
list?
The total amount of the money was — that was
paid to DeHart was something around 40 —
somewhere in the 40 plus thousand range.
MR. LIGHT: That would include also the
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aquipaant?
THE WITNESS» Tha aquipmant and avarything
•Is*. Actually, va ran iato a problan ia
tarn* of austoaar list as to whathar or aot
they ara dapraciabla. In this question thara
ia nothing, bat it is. But oar accountant
fait that wa should put ia aora valua iato
•quipawat than perhaps th« «quipm«nt was li-
tarally worth and aadorvaloo th« eaatoaar list
to bm abl* aot to gat iato a fight with th«
IKS ralativo to dapraciating tha custoaar liat.
And so that waa what vaa actually accoaplishad.
Soaxa of this aquipaant vaa grossly oraarvaluad.
What ia your adocational background?
I'm a graduate anginaar. 1'va got a dagraa in
Taohnioal Snginaaring fro» tha Maaaachuaatts
Inatituta of Tachaology. I also hava a buainaaa
ia anginaariag adMinistration ia tha aaaa achool.
Caa yoa giva •• tha data of thoaa two dagraaa?
Tha Tachnical 1948 aad Buainaaa Adainiatration
dagraa ia 1948.
KR. BSRNAHi Ia that a Bachelor's?
THE WITNESS! Both ara Bachalor'a.
NR. BAXBRt Q Do you hara any post-gradaata
dagraas?
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Ho, air.
What was your employment following your graduation
Z worked for American Steel Foundries in East
Chicago, Indiana, for a short period of time.
Z helped found Sepprioy, Incorporated,
s-e-p-p-r-i-o-y.
What is that?
Nickel and copper smelting operation in Chicago*
Does it exist today?
Zt exists.
Do you have any part of the operation today?
NO.
MR. LIGHTi Off the record.
(Whereupon, there was adiscussion off the record*)
THE WITNESSi Sepprioy, Zncoporated, I
worked for them from 1950 to 1953. I worked
for Apex Smelting Company, of very large
business for sine and magnesium reclaimer.
And where was that located?
In Cleveland, Ohio, for a short period of time.
Z worked then approximately 14 years in a
variety of both engineering and management
positions with the U.S. Reduction Company in
East Chicago, Indiana. And then in February of
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1968, I left the U.S. Reduction Coapaay. I
was vice-presideat for Engineering Technical
Service aad set up my owa counseling engineering
company aad later iacorporated aad then a
year or so later, I set up Industrial Tectonics.
Does Industrial Tectonics have a private
for the year?
Yes. The company because of the — I advised
you earlier but aot oa this record, mo let's
put it oa the record.
Industrial Teetoaics was originally
for the express purpose of air pollution
mechanics that I eould aot get anybody la
the commercial world to invest in aad this was
a unit of a type that was very, very advanta-
geous for the use aad secoadary low smeling
operation.
So, Z set up the company basically
to provide this. Over the years we have
doae other work. We have purchased equipment
for resale, some were working for a curreat
clieat, aad we purchased it through there
without markup, but we are not dealing with
a curreat client or somethiag that does not
relate to a current price* We take a reasonable
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markup on these items we retail — Cotec
Division has always shown a profit. The
Chemical Division has never. Unfortunately
my accountant was not willing to set up two
independent statements so that the audit for
the return for '77 through *78 and '79 will
show the combined, and I will — I will be
very pleased to insist that my account breaks
those apart for me and show what the Chemical
Division did.
Did you have some to put on any other annual
report on this profit and loss statement?
Well, It put out no profit and only report
put out that goes to the IRS.
You were contemplating, X believe, taking out*
side financing for the chemical company?
Yes.
Did you make any report in anticipating of
seeking that financing?
Yes* There was a prospectus that was developed.
Xt's in the file. X would be pleased to
see to it that you have a copy, if you want.
MB. LIGHT: X may ask why you're asking
for this?
MR. BAKER: Just —
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MR. LIGHT: I merely mentioned it bacauaa
I know tha aubjact matter of our lawauit,
and while I'm not objacting to tba anawer,
you know, I quaation whatbar —
MR. BAKER: I'm juat trying to find out
what raeorda exi*ted relative to tha operation
out thara to aaa whether or not they were
of importance to tba invoice* of income and
ahow tha barrel and tha amounta of tba aolvanta
to any other place.
MR. LIGHT: Now, I underatand your point.
MR. BJUCBRt Q Do you have any contractual
agreement* which vara reduced to writing
with By-Producta?
Mo, air.
Other than tlm leaae of trucfca, have you paid
monay to By-Producta for anything on bahalf
of Induatrial Tectonic*?
I don't recollect, but it'a poaaibla that
we paid tha lab for analytical work aoma time
or another. I'm not aura if it waa dona through
tha engineering or Licht Engineering or if
waa Induatrial Tectonic*. I know that we
ocaaaionally pay them fund*, but I'm pretty
aura it waa through — for engineering work.
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for third party and not —•
& As far as you know, did Industrial Taetoaies
avar raoaiva aay drums at tha site containing
eyaaida?
ft> Absolutely aot.
Q, Are you awara of aay truoka having existed at
tha sita or having existed at tha sita contain-
ing eyaaida?
A. I'm aot awara of aay eyaaida at that aita.
Mft. UXSfts I hava ao further questions.
Mft. LICBTs I hava no questions.
Z should like to read the transcript,
aad aftar tha traascript ia read by me, it
will thea ba submitted for signature by
Mr. Charlaa Lieht.
(Witness excused.)
{FURTHER DEPONENT SAZTH NOT.)
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C E R T I F I C A T E
I, Brenda J. Cueller, being a qualified andcompetent shorthand court reporter/ and being firstduly authorised to administer said oath, do herebycertify there appeared before me at 507 State Street,Hanmond, Indiana, on the 4th day of January, 1980,the deponent, CHARLES A. LIGHT, who was thereupon firstduly sworn by me to testify the truth and nothing butthe truth in response to questions propounded to saiddeponent at the taking of the foregoing deposition,relating to the above captioned cause now pending andundetermined in said court.
I further certify that I then and therereported in machine shorthand the testimony so givenat said time and place, and that the testimony wasthen reduced to typewriting from my original shorthandnotes, and the foregoing typewritten transcript is atrue and correct record of said testimony given at saidtime and place*
Z further certify that reeding by the witnessand signature to the deposition were waived by theparties oa the record*
Dated at Hammond, Indiana, on theof February,1980.
day
C.S.R.
