Episode 229: How to Use Atomic Habits to Change Your Life€¦ · 1 Episode 229: How to Use Atomic Habits to Change Your Life. ... hockey stick portion of the curve where, you know

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Episode229:HowtoUseAtomicHabitstoChange

YourLife


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Child:WelcometomyMommy’spodcast.

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ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyThriveMarket.I’vebeenusingThriveMarketforyears,eversincetheyfirstopenedandIknowmanyofyouhaveaswell,butIwantedtomakesureyou’reuptodateonacouplethingsthatmakethemevenmoreawesome.First,ifyouhaven’ttriedit,theyhaveareallyeasytouseappthatmakesorderingeasythatmakesorderingonlinesupersimple.Iusethisallthetime…downloaditatalinkI’llmentioninaminuteanduseittokeepyouronlinegrocerylistandtoorderwhenyouneedanorder.Second,ifyouhaven’tnoticed,theyhaveabunchofsecretfreegiftswithpurchaseformembersonly!Sothismeansanytimeyoumakeapurchaseandafreegiftisavailable,youreceiveafreegiftinyourorder.Ioftencheckbackafewtimesaweekbecausethey’vehadsomeofmyfavoritethingsasafreegiftwithpurchase.MystrategyistoaddthingstomycartintheappasIthinkofthemoraswerunout,thenonceIhitthethresholdforfreeshippingandthefreegift,Iorderwhenit’sagiftthatIwoulduse.Andlasttip,makesuretocheckouttheThriveMarketbrandwhenyou’reontheapporwebsitebecausetheyhaveputalotoftimeandeffortdevelopingtheirownlineofhighqualityproducts.Theynowhavetheirownlineofreallyhighqualityproductsatreallygreatprices.Thisisnowmygo-toforpantrystapleslikegrainfreeflours,bakingsoda,nuts,etcandforsardines,tunaandcannedgoodsandevenfordiapers.Findoutmoreaboutalloftheseandgetanextradiscountonyourfirstorderatthrivemarket.com/katie

Katie:Hello,andwelcometo"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."I'mKatiefromwellnessmama.com,andthisepisodeisgoingtobeallabouthabitsandhowtheycanchangeyourlife.IamherewithJamesClearwhoistheauthorandspeakerfocusedonhabits,decisionmaking,andcontinuousimprovement.Heiskindofabigdeal,hespeakstoandeducatesFortune500companies.AndhisworkisusedbyteamsintheNFL,theNBA,andMajorLeagueBaseballwhichis,ofcourse,myfavoritesport.

Andthroughhisonlinecourse,TheHabitsAcademy,he'staughtmorethan10,000leaders,managers,coaches,andteachers.Andhisnewestwork,abook,"AtomicHabits,"ishelpingthousandsofpeoplereshapeandimprovetheirlives.AndIcan'twaittojumpin,soJames,welcomeandthanksforbeinghere.

James:Oh,thankyousomuch.It'sgreattotalktoyou.

Katie:Well,Ithinktostart,Iwouldloveifyoucouldwalkusthroughsomeofthereasonswhyhabitsaresoimportant.Iknowthatmanyofushavehabits,bothconsciousandunconscioushabits,butexplaintouswhythey'resoimportant.


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James:Sure.Well,thereiskindoftwoanswerstothisquestion.Sothefirstisthathabitsjusthelpyousolvetheproblemsthatyoufacethroughoutlife.Soasyougothroughlife,youfaceavarietyofsituations.Someofthemarelarge,someofthemaresmall,buttakesomethingyoudoeachday,liketyingyourshoes,forexample.Whenyouputyourshoeonandit'suntied,inasense,that'saproblem,andyourbrainhastofigureouthowtosolvethat.Andifyouneedtothinkcarefullyaboutiteverysingletime,likeimagineifyounevergotbetterattyingyourshoes,sotheveryfirsttimeyoudidit,ittookalotofeffortandyouhadtothinkcarefullyabouthowtomaketheloopsandhowtotiethemintoeachotherandsoon,you'refocusingyourfullattentionandconcentrationonthat.

Andifitwaslikethateverytime,youwouldn'tbeabletodoverymuchduringlife.Youmightstillbeabletosurviveandgetthroughitbutyouwouldjustonlybegoingfromoneproblemtothenextandyouwouldbeverylimited.Butbecauseyourbrainhasthisabilitytodevelopgreaterfluencyandaccuracyandskillasyoupracticethingstomoreorlessdothemquickerandbetterandalmostonautopilot,tobuildhabits,thatis,youhavetheabilitytosolveproblemsortocomeupwithsolutionswithouthavingtofocusyourconsciousattentionandenergyonthem.

Andsonowyoucantieyourshoewhileholdingaconversationorthinkingaboutyourto-dolistforthedayandsoon.Andthat'skindofthepurposeofhabitsisthattheyallowyoutoapplysolutionstorepeatedorrecurringproblemsthatyouface,andwhateverthecontext,it'sthesame,likelookingatashoeuntiedonyourfoot,youcankindofpulloutthatscript,thatcognitivementalshortcut,andapplythatandyoucandoitwithoutthinking.Andsothat'skindofthefirstpurposeofhabitsandthefirstreasonthatthey'reimportant.

Thesecondreasonthatthey'reimportantislessabouttheimmediateimpact,liketyingyourshoeorunpluggingthetoasteraftereachuseorsomethinglikethat,andmoreaboutthedelayedorlong-termimpactthattheyhave.AndsothisiswhereIliketorefertohabitsasthecompoundinterestofself-improvement.AndthereasonIusethatphraseisthatthesamewaythatmoneymultipliesthroughcompoundinterest,theeffectsofyourhabitsmultiplyasyourepeatthemovertime.So,youknow,earlyonifyou'resavingforretirement,youdon'treallyseeawholelot.You'rekindofsockingmoneyawaybutthecurveisbasicallyflat,youkindoffeellikeyou'restuckonthisplateau.It'sonly10or20or30yearslaterthatyoukindofgettothishockeystickportionofthecurvewhere,youknow,youraccumulationinsavingsgoesupsignificantly.

Andthisisahallmarkofanycompoundingprocesswhichisthegreatestreturnsaredelayed.Andhabitsarenotexactlylikethatbuttheprocessofbuildinghabitsisverysimilartothatinthesensethatthedifferencebetweenmakingachoicethat's1%betteror1%worse,slightlygoodversusslightlybad,onanygivendayisprettyinsignificant.Like,thedifferencebetweenstudyingSpanishforanhourtodayornotstudyingatallisbasicallynothing,youknow,like,youhaven'tlearnedthelanguageeitherway.Andthedifferencebetweeneatingaburgerandfriesforlunchoreatingasalad,again,isbasicallynothing.Yourbodylooksbasicallythesameinthemirrorattheendofthenight,thescalehasn'treallychanged.Butifyourepeatthosehabitsfor2or5or10years,thenyougettoverydifferentresults.

Andsohabitsarecrucial,becauseyoucanmakethesechoicesthatare1%betteror1%worse,butyouendupinaverydifferentplaceinthelongrun.Andsoinasense,timemagnifieswhateveryoufeedit.Ifyoufeeditgoodhabitsandget1%bettereachday,thentimebecomesyourally,andifyoufeeditbadhabitsandget1%


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worseeachday,thentimebecomesyourenemy.Andoneofthepurposesofwriting"AtomicHabits"andkindofwhatIhopedtoachievewiththebookwastogivepeopleaframeworkandasimplesystemthattheycouldusesothatyoucanmakesurehabitsarecompoundingforyouratherthanagainstyou.

Katie:Yeah,Ilovethat.AndIwanttogodeeperonthatbecauseIfeellikeforalotofus,atleastspeakingformyself,wehavealotofhabitsthatwe'veprobablyneverreallyevaluatedwhetherthey'regood,bad,orcompletelyindifferent.Sotakeusthroughthatsystemalittlebit,howdoyougetpeopletoworkthrough...arehabitsbeneficial,aretheynot,andhowtoevenidentifythose?

James:Yeahthat'sagoodquestion.So,firstofall,fromahighlevel,allhabitsserveyouinsomeway,eventhebadones,theyprovidesomethingforyou.Butagoodwaytodistinguishbetweenwhatisagoodhabitorabadhabit,whatisaproductivehabitoranunproductivehabitisbytheultimateoutcomethatitprovidesandnottheimmediatewaythatitservesyou.So,forexample,youcanthinkofprettymucheverybehaviorisproducingmultipleoutcomesacrosstime,liketheimmediateoutcomeofeatingacookie,forexample,isprettyfavorable.It'ssweet,sugary,it'stasty,youenjoyit,buttheultimateoutcomeifyourepeatthathabitforweeksormonthsoryearsmightbeunfavorableorunhealthy.

Forgoodhabits,inmanycases,it'sthereverse,liketheimmediateoutcomeofgoingtothegymisthatitrequiressomeeffort,energy,alittlebitofsacrifice,yousweat,youhavetoworkhard,buttheultimateoutcomeifyourepeatthatforweeksormonthsoryearsisfavorable.Andsoalotofthebattleofbuildinggoodhabitsandbreakingbadonesisaboutfiguringouthowtotakethoselong-termconsequencesofyourbadhabitsandpullthoseintothepresentmoment,soyoufeelalittlebitofthepainrightnow,andthelong-termrewardsorbenefitsofyourgoodhabitsandpullthoseintothepresentmoment,soitfeelsgoodrightnowandyouhaveareasontorepeatit.Sothat'sjustaboutthedistinguishingbetween,like,whatisagoodhabit,whatisabadhabit,whatdoweevenmeanwhenwesaythat.

Now,asyoumentioned,manypeoplearenotawareoftheirhabitstostartwith.Like,we're...thisiskindofahallmarkofhabits,youknow,onceahabitisformed,youcandoitmoreorlesswithoutthinkingandbecauseyoucandosomethingorapplyasolutiononautopilot,youaren'tevenreallyawareofithalfthetime.AndthisiswhyIrecommendusingwhatIcalltheHabitsScorecardjustkindofasafirststeporasimple,like,waytostarttogetahandleonwhatyourhabitsareandwhetherthey'rebenefitingyouornot.

SoHabitsScorecardisprettysimple.Youstartatthebeginningofyourday,andjustwritedown,inasmuchgranularityanddetailasyoucan,eachbehaviorthatyouperformandthenyouassignaplussigntoitifit'sapositivehabitandaminussignifit'snegativeorjustanequalsignifyouthinkit's,like,fairlyneutral.So,forexample,youmightsay,"Iwakeup,Iturnoffmyalarm,Icheckmyphone,Igetoutofbed,Imakethebed,Igotothebathroom,takeashower,getonthescale,brushmyteeth,getdressed,"soon.Andyougo,like,allthewaythroughyourdayasdetailedasyoucan.

Andonceyouhavethatlist,youkindofaresuddenlyawareofallthesethingsthatyou'redoingthatoftenyoujustdon'teventhinkabout.Andthenifyoulookatthatlistandyousay,"Okay,youknow,Iwakeup,that'sfine,that'spositiveorneutral.Iturnoffmyalarm,that'sfine.IcheckInstagram.ShouldIbechecking


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InstagrambeforeIgetoutofbed?Well,probablynot."Like,thatmightbeanegativehabit.Thenyougetout,youmakeyourbed,that'spositiveandsoon,yougothroughyourday.Andthepointofthisexerciseisnotreallytochangeanythingrightaway,it'snottojudgeyourselforyourfaultsorto,like,praiseyourselfforyourgoodhabits.It'sreallyjusttogetahandleonwhereyouactuallyare,tobecomeawareofwhat'sactuallygoingon,onaday-to-daybasis.

Andonceyou'vedonethat,youknow,thisisafairlysimpleexercise,youcouldcertainlydoitinahalfhourorless,maybeeven10minutesorlessdependingonhowdetailedyouwantedtoget.Butthose10minutesareprettywellspent,becausenowsuddenlyyouhave,like,anhonestconversationwithyourselfabout,"WhatamIdoingeachdayandarethosethingsbenefitingme?"Andthenonceyouknowthat,youhavealotofchoicesonwheretogoandhowtoshapeandimproveyourhabits.

Katie:Thatmakessense.AndIwannacalloutthatelephantintheroomandhowdoyouaddressitearlyonbecausethereisthisperceptionthatyoucannevertrulybreakabadhabitorthatthat'saverydifficultthingtodo,andthenthereisamilliontheoriesofhowlongthattakesandifit'seven,youknow,long-termpossible,solet'sgothroughthatalittlebitrightnow.Isitpossibleactuallytobreakabadhabit?

James:Well,sotheshortanswerisyes.It'snoteasyanddifferentstrategieshavedifferentlevelsofeffectiveness.So,firstofall,andthisiskindofasidenoteandIdon'twanttogettrappedonthispathtoomuch.Butthereisavarietyofinterestingresearchthat'shappeninginthemedicalcommunityrightnowthat'sactually,like,rewiringthebrainsothebadhabitsarekindoflikeactuallyeliminatedonaneurologicallevel.Sosomeofthosearepharmaceuticaldrugsthatarebeingused,typicallywithdrugaddicts,thatcanhelpreversesomeofthecravingsthatpeoplehave.

Andthenotheronesarewhat'scalledTMSwhichislikeamagneticresonancemachinewhereyoubasicallyputthismagnetoverthepatient'sbrainandeffectivelyturnontheneuronsthatarein,like,decisionmakingportionsofthebrainthatareresponsibleforresistingtemptation.Andsuddenlymanypeoplewhohavehaddepressionoraddictionoravarietyofbadhabitsfeellikethisfliphasbeenswitchedorthisswitchhasbeenflipped,andthey'reabletoturntheirbadhabitsoff.

Sothat'sveryearlystages,it'sdefinitelynotamagical,like,panacea,butitwillbeinterestingtoseewherethatgoesoverthenext10years.Now,fortherestofus,whetheryou're,formostpeoplewhoarejustdealingwithabadhabit,thereareavarietyofwaystothinkaboutthisandtoresolveit.So,Iliketobreakhabitsintofourstages,cue,whichislikethetriggerthatpromptsyoutodothebehavior,thecravingwhichisthepredictionthatcomesafterward.Sothecravingisusuallywhatwethinkaboutwhenwethinkaboutbadhabitslike,"I'mcravingadonut,"or,"Icraveacigarette,"orsoon,butallbehaviorsactuallyareprecededbysomekindofcravingorprediction.Thenthereistheresponsewhichistheactualbehavioritself,andthenfinallythereistherewardorthebenefitthatyougetforperformingthebehavior.

Andwhenitcomestobreakingabadhabit,Ithinkthemosteffectiveplacestofocusarethefirststageandthethirdstage.Sothefirststageisthecue,soyouwannareduceexposuretothecuesthatpromptyourbadhabits.So,forexample,ifyou'retryingtoloseweightandsticktoadiet,thendon'tfollowabunchof,like,you


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know,unhealthyfoodblogsonInstagram.You'rebeingtriggered,youknow,toeatsweetsallthetime.Ifyouwanttospendlessmoneyonelectronics,thendon'tfollowYouTuberswhodo,like,unboxingvideosorthelatesttechreviewblog.Samething,you'rekindofbeingpromptedtodothethingyou'retryingtoresist.

Commonexampleslikedon'tkeepsweetsinthehouse,orifyoufeellikeyouwatchtoomuchtelevisionorspendtoomuchtimeonNetflix,thenjustlookatthe,like,livingroom.Wheredoallthecouchesandchairsface?TheyallfacetheTV.Andsoyoucouldputyourtelevisioninside,like,awallunitoracabinetand,youknow,haveitbehinddoorssoyou'relesslikelytoseeit.Butthepointofallthoseexamplesistoreduceexposuretothecuethatpromptsabadhabit.

Thenthesecondoptionthatyouhaveistoincreasethefrictionassociatedwiththehabit.Thisisthatthirdstepabouttheresponseandthemoredifficultitbecomes,themorefrictionthereisassociatedwiththebehavior,themorelikelyyouaretoavoidit.So,forexample,ifyouaresmokingandthereisapackofcigarettesonthetableandyou'retryingtoquit,well,that'sgonnabereallyhardbecauseit'sverylowfrictionwithcigarettesrightthere.Whereasifyou'reinacabinandtherearenocigarettesaroundandtheclosestoneis30milesawayatagasstation,like,thereisalotoffrictionthereanditmightbeeasiertositwiththatcravingandletitpass.Sothosetwooptions,increasingfrictionandreducingexposure,aretwoofthemosteffectivewaystobreakabadhabit.

Katie:Thatmakesperfectsense,andit'sagoodsegue,youtouchedonitalittlebit.Butleadingintomynextquestion,whichisjusthowimportantisourenvironmentwhenitcomestohabits,becausethatalmostgoesbacktoeventheage-oldquestionwithkidsofnatureversusnurtureandhowmuchisbuiltinandhowmuchisdictatedbyourenvironment.Butfromanadultperspective,whenwe'retryingtochangeourhabits,howmuchdoestheenvironmentreallycomeintoplay?

James:Yeah,it'sahugefactor.SoIliketodividetheenvironmentintotwosections.Sothefirstisthephysicalenvironment,so,like,thethingsthatareonyourkitchencounterathomeorinyourlivingroomoronyourdeskatwork,andthesocialenvironment,sothepeoplethatsurroundyouandthepeopleyouhangoutwith.AndI'lltalkaboutthephysicalenvironmentfirstandifyou'dliketotalkmoreaboutsocial,wecancomebacktothat.ButIgavetheexampleof,like,alivingroomand,youknow,allthecouchesandchairsfacingthetelevision,sothatphysicalenvironmentisshapingthehabitofwatchingTV.

Now,thiscanworkforyouaswellasagainstyou.So,forexample,whenIwantedtobuildthehabitofflossing,IrealizedthatIbrushmyteethtwiceadaybutIwasn'tflossingconsistently.AndwhenIlookedatthathabitandtriedtofigureoutwhattheissuewas,Irealizedoneoftheproblemsisthattheflosswashiddenawayinadrawer,inthebathroom,andIjustwouldn'tseeit.AndsoIboughtalittlebowlandIputitrightnexttomytoothbrushandthenIputtheflossinthebowl,andnowwheneverIbrushmyteeth,Iputthetoothbrushdown,picktheflossup,flossrightaway.NowIdoittwiceaday,Idon'teventhinkaboutit.AndI,basicallytheonlythingIneededtodotobuildthathabitwastochangetheenvironmentsothatthecueofmygoodhabitwasmoreobvious,itwasrightthere.


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SamethingwhenIwantedtoeatmorefruit,weusedtobuyapplesandputtheminthecrisperinthebottomofthefridge.Andtheywouldbetuckeddownthere,andIwouldforgettheywereinthereandtheywouldgobadafter,like,twoweeksandthenIwouldhavetothrowthemawayandbeannoyed,wastingfood,wastingmoneyandsoon.So,again,Ijustbought,like,adisplaybowlandputthemrightinthemiddleofthecounterandthenhavetheapplesthere,andnowI'lleatthemintwodaysorthreedaysandthey're,youknow,gonerightaway.Andthat,again,wasjust,thathabitwasmostlyjustachangeinwhatwasobviousoravailable,whatwasvisibleintheenvironment.Sothisisoneofthekeywaysthatphysicalenvironmentcanshapeyourhabitsisbymakingitobviouswhattodoandwheretodoit.

ThesecondthingthatI'lladdtothisthatcanbeanimportantcaveatforbuildinggoodhabitsisyourcurrenthabits,overtime,theybecometiedtoaparticularcontext.Andso,forexample,foronepersoncomingintothecontextoftheirlivingroomandtheircouch,thecouchmightbetheplacewheretheysitdownandreadforanhoureachnight.Foranotherperson,thecouchmightbeaplacewheretheysitdownandwatchtheirfavoriteTVshowandeatabowloficecream.Andthehabitsbecometiedtothatcontextoverall.

Andsoifyoutrytoinsertanewbehaviorintothesamecontext,forexample,ifyoutrytosay,"Allright,youknow,I'vebeenwatchingtoomuchTVandeatingicecream,soinsteadI'mgoingtotrytojournalfor20minuteseachnight,andI'lldothatonmycouch."Well,yougointhereandyousitdownandthereiskindofthis,like,subtlenon-consciouspullbacktowardthehabitthat'sassociatedwiththatcontext.Youknow,youfindyourselfturningontheTVeventhoughyou'relike,"Man,Ireallywantedtojournal,IwashopingIwouldbeabletodothathabitinstead."

Andwhathappensisthatyou'rebasicallytryingtoovercomeyourassociationswiththatcontext,andforthisreasonit'softeneasiertostartanewhabitinanewenvironment,onethatyoudon'thavecurrentassociationsbuiltinalready.So,ifyouwanttostartthatjournalinghabitofjournalingfor20minutes,itmightbemoreeffectiveto,say,pickacoffeeshopthatisoutsideyourofficethatyoudon'tusuallygoto.Andsoyoufinishwork,yougointothecoffeeshop,andyournewroutinebecomes,"AssoonasIwalkinthedoor,IturnoffmyphoneandthenIsitdownatatableandIjournalfor20minutes."Andthatpattern,thatroutinebecomesthethingthathappensthere,thisbecomes,like,thejournalingcoffeeshop.

And,youknow,ofcourse,ifyoucan'tdoitwith,like,ashoporsomethinglikethatorifyoudon'thaveanentirelydifferentroomwhereyoucanperformthenewhabit,youcanstilldoitwith,like,whatIwouldcallanactivityzone,youknow,likeyoucouldbuyachairandputitinthecorner,andthatchairbecomesthejournalingchairandit'stheonlythingyoudointhatchair.Butmypointhere,theoverallpointisthatyourenvironment,one,shapesyourbehaviorbypromptingyoutodocertainthings,andtwo,overtime,thatcontextbecomesassociatedwithcertainhabits.Andsoit'softeneasiertobuildanewhabitinanewcontextratherthantryingtooverpowertheassociationsthatyoualreadyhavewithyourcurrentcontext.Andifyouemploythosetwostrategies,thenyouoftenfindthatyourphysicalenvironmentcankindofnudgeyouintherightdirection.

Katie:Thatmakessense.AndanotherthingI'dloveforyoutokindofputtorestisthegreatdebateonhowlongdoesitactuallytaketoformahabit.BecauseIknowI'vereadatleastprobablysixdifferenttheoriesonlineofhowlongittrulytakestocreateahabit,sowhat'syourtakeonthat?


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James:Yeah.SothisisoneofthemostcommonquestionsthatIget.You'llseeallkindsofthings,right,you'llsee21days,30days,66days.Therewasonestudythatshowedthat,onaverage,ittookabout66daystobuildahabit.Evenwithinthatstudy,therangewasquitewide.Sosomethingsimplelikedrinkingaglassofwateratluncheachdaywouldtake,youknow,acoupleweeks,somethingreallycomplicatedlikegoingforarunafterworkeverydaymighttakesevenoreightmonths,buttherangewasverywide.

Now,asageneralrule,thinking,"Oh,thisisgonnatakemeafewmonthstobuildahabit,"that'sfine,Ithink.Youknow,like,youshouldbenotfocusedon,"Oh,letmejustdothisfor21daysandI'llbedone."Butthereiskindofalargerproblemwiththatquestionwhichistheimplicitassumptionbehindthequestion,"Howlongdoesittaketobuildahabit?"is,"Well,howlonguntilIcanstopworking?"or,"Howlonguntilit'seasier?,"or,"HowlonguntilIdon'thavetotryanymore?"Andthehonestanswertothatquestionisforever,becauseifyoustopworkingonahabit,ifyoustopdoingit,it'snolongerahabit.AndsoIthinkweneedashiftfromseeingthisaslike,"Habitsarenotalikeafinishlinetocross,habitsarealifestyletobelived."Andifyouviewitasalifestyle,thenyoustarttoseethereasontopicka1%changeorasmallimprovement,somethingyoucanactuallystickwithinthelongrun.

Becauseyou'rereallylookingforsomethingthat'ssustainableandthatcanbereliablydonedayinanddayoutfortherestofyourlifeorforaslongasyouwanttodoit.Sothat'sthefirstpiece,thesecondanswertothatquestion,though,isthattherereallyisn'tanythingabouttimepassingthatmakesahabitstick.Whatmakesahabitstickisthenumberoftimesthatyou'vedoneit,youknow,likeyoucoulddo,30dayscouldpassandyoucoulddoahabitonce,abehavioronceoryoucoulddoit1,000times.And,youknow,thinkaboutthehabitofpullingoutyoursmartphone.Howmanydaysdidittakeyoutobuildthathabit?Probablynotthatmany.Imean,theaverageadultpullstheirsmartphoneoutover150timesaday.

Soifyou'redoingsomethingthatmanytimes,ifyou'reperformingthatmanyrepetitions,thenyouoftenfindthatthehabitsticksmuchfaster.Andthat,Ithink,isanotherlessonoranotherdeeperinsightabouthowhabitsworkandwhat'simportant,whichisthatit'snotreallyaboutthetime,it'smoreaboutputtinginyourreps.Andonceyourealizethat,youcanmaybereleasealittlebitofthetensionoralittlebitoftheworryabout,"Oh,youknow,likehaveIdonethisfor30days?"orsomethinglikethat,andstopworryingaboutthetimethathaselapsedandstartfocusingmoreontheworkthathasbeendone,andon,"HowcanIputmyrepsintoday?"Becauseifyouputyourrepsintodayandyoushowuptomorrowandyoudothesame,beforeyouknowit,youwillhaveahabitthat'sbeenformed.

Katie:Yeah,Ilovethat.AndI'mcuriousofyourworkwithallofthesepeopleovertime.Iftherearepatternsthathaveemergedorthatyou'veseenforthemostimpactfulhabitandhowtoidentifythoseordoesitreallyvaryfrompersontoperson,andifso,howcansomeoneidentifywhattheirmostimpactfulhabitchangeswillbe?

James:Yeah,that'sareallygoodquestion.So,ofcourse,asyouwouldexpect,itdoesdifferbetween,persontoperson,butIthinktherearestillsomelessonswecandrawonthewhole.So,sometimesthesehabitsthatare,like,thehighestvalueorthehighestleveragearereferredtoaskeystonehabits.Andonewaytothinkaboutitis,it'skindofliketheoneortwohabitsthatpulltherestofyourlifeinline.Soforme,personally,


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weightliftingisagreatexample,youknow,likeIgotothegymandIworkoutand,yes,Igetthebenefitsofexercise.Butitalsogoes,like,allofthesesecondarythings,youknow,itimprovesmyhealth,ithelpsmesleepbetteratnightbecauseI'mtiredfromtheworkout,whichmeansIwakeupthenextdayandIhavebetterenergyandfocus.Igetkindofthispost-workouthighforaboutanhourortwowhereI'm,like,veryfocusedandcanpayattentionwelltowhateverthenexttaskis.

ItendtoeatbetterwhenIworkoutwhichisinterestingbecause,like,youcouldsay,"Well,youworkout,maybeyoucouldjust,like,letitslipalittlebit,"butitendsupmakingmethinklike,"Oh,Idon'twanttowasteit."AndsoIendupeatinghealthier.AndatnopointwasItryingtobuildbettersleephabitsornutritionhabitsorfocushabitsorenergyhabits,butallofthosethingskindoflikecameasanaturalsideeffectofthisonekeystonehabitofworkingout.Someothercommonkeystonehabitsthatyou'llhearpeopletalkabout,forperformers,whetherit'sathletesorcomediansormusicians,visualizationisacommonkeystonehabit.Theyknowiftheyvisualizehowtheperformanceisgonnago,thentheyfindthattheykindagetoffontherightfootandthingsgetstartedbetter.

MeditationisacommonkeystonehabitthatalotofCEOsandexecutiveswilltalkabout.Iftheygettheir10minutesofmeditationin,inthemorning,thentherestoftheirdaykindaseemstogomoretoplanortheycanhandletheproblemsthatare...Foralotofcreatives,likewritersandsoon,goingforadailywalkisoftencitedasakeystonehabitwhere,youknow,iftheygetoutsideandgetmovingalittlebit,thenthecreativejuiceskindofgetflowingortheyclarifytheirideas.Ithinkthereisalsojustsomethingingeneralto,like,ifyou'restuckonaprojectoraproblem,thenchangingthecontext,youknow,so,like,you'resittinginfrontofyourcomputerforfourhoursandyoudon'tseemtobemakinganyprogress,butthenyoustepoutsideandgoforawalkfor15minutesandsuddenlytheanswercomestoyou.

So,anyway,goingforawalkisacommonkeystonehabitandthenanotheronethatyou'llhearpeoplementionalotispayingofftheirdebtorgettingtheirbudgetingandfinancesundercontrol.Sometimesyou'llseepeoplepaydebtoffandthen,like,allofasudden,theystartgoingtothegymandstuff,too,andthereisjustkindofthis,like,rippleeffectfromoneareaoftheirlifetothenext.So,thoseareavarietyofcommonkeystonehabitsthatyou'llseepeopletalkabout.

Ithinkforhowtofigurethatoutforyourselfanddetermine,like,"Whatisthehighestvaluehabitformetofocuson?"Youcansimplyaskyourselflike,"WhatdoIdowhenthingsgowell?"Youknow,"WhenIhaveadaythatfeelseffective,thatfeelslikeI'matmybest,whatamIusuallydoingonthatday?"Andyou'lloftenbeabletocomeupwith,like,threeorfourthings,andallofthosemightnotbetheanswerbutthatgivesyouashortlisttostartwith.Andmaybeyoujustpickoneofthoseandtrytofocusonmakingthatahabitanddoingiteachday,andseewhathappens.Andthenifthatdoesn'tseemtodothetrick,youknow,thenextmonth,youcouldpickadifferentonefromthatlistandfocusonthat.Butprettysoon,withinmaybethreeorfourmonths,you'llhaveadecentideaof,like,whattheoneortwoleversareforyouthat,"Man,whenIdothis,things,like,reallyfallinline,"andIthinkthatthat'sagoodwaytothinkaboutit.

I'vealso,though,developedalistofsomecommonhabitsthatIfeellikejusthaveaveryhighrateofreturninlife,andsoI'lljustlistthoseoffrealquick.So,oneofthemissleepingforeighthourseachday,liftingweightsatleastthreetimesaweekorwecouldjustsayexercisingthreetimesaweek.Goingforawalkeachday,


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savingatleast10%ofyourincome,readingeveryday,drinkingmoreofwaterandlessofeverythingelseandthenleavingyourphoneinanotherroomwhileyouwork.Andthose,like,sevenideas,Idon'tthinkallofthemworkforeverybody,butifyoucandosomeofthose,you'llfindthattheyreallydopayoffintheyearsanddecadesthatfollow.

Katie:Iloveallofthose,andtospeakalittlebittotheideaofthelittlehabitsmakingsuchabigdifference,I'vesaidthisbeforesomanytimesonthepodcast,butItrulybelievethatwomenandmomsarethebusiestpeopleontheplanet,especiallyworkingmoms,butanymom.AndsoIfeellikeweespeciallycanbenefitfromsystemsoranythingthatallowsustotakesomeofthatmentalstressoff.BecausewhatInoticewithmomsespeciallyisthere'ssomuchonourmindatalltimesthatwe'reconstantlyjuggling,soevenifwearehandlingeverythingsooften,wefeelstressedallthetime.

Andinmyownlife,IcannowsayI'mnotatallstressedmostdays,butit'sbecauseI'veputsystemsinplaceandI'vebasicallycreatedgoodhabitsaccordingto,likethewayyou'vetalkedabout,I'vecreatedhabitsthathaveletmenothavetoworryaboutthingswhenit'snottheirtimetobeworriedabout,andIknowthiswasalongprocessformeandsoI'mwonderingforthosewhoaretryingtoimplementthesehabitsandtryingtoworkthroughthis,ifyoucangivesometipsonstayingmotivated,becausethatseemstobethefrictionpoint.Like,it'seasytowanttojumpinandstarttocreatenewhabitsbutthemotivationtostay,tostickwithituntilthathabitisactuallyformedcanbereallytough.Sodoyouhaveanyinsidertipsthere?

James:Oh,yeah.It'sagreatquestion.Itcanbereallyhard.Sotherearetwowaystothinkaboutthis.Sothefirstis,andIcoverthisin,I'vegotawholesectiononitin"AtomicHabits"forwhatIcallthe4thlawofbehaviorchange,whichis,"Makeitsatisfying."AndthisisjustfromabiologicalstandpointandthenI'llbreakitdownintopracticalactionsteps.Sobiologicallyspeaking,yourbrainwantstorepeatthingsthatfeelgood,thatprovidesometypeofsatisfactionorenjoyment.Soit'skindalikewhenevertheendingofahabitorabehaviororanexperienceispositive,it'slikethislittlesignaltoyourbrainthatsays,"Hey,thisfeltgood,youshoulddothisagainnexttime."Andthekeyaspectthereisit'sreallyaboutthespeedwithwhichyoufeelsatisfied.

So,forexample,productsarekindofagreatexampleofthis,like,commononeistoothpaste.Thereisnoreasonthattoothpastehastotasteminty,itdoesn'tmakethetoothpaste,like,moreeffectiveatcleaningyourteeth,itcouldjustbeapasteorsomething.Butthemintflavormakesitmoresatisfying,moreenjoyable,foryoutobrushyourteethandusethat.Andbecauseitprovidesthisimmediatesatisfaction,you'remorelikelytoshowupanduseitagain.

Morecommonexample,acoupleyearsago,BMWaddedthislittlefeaturetosomeoftheircarswhereifyoupressedontheaccelerator,itwouldactuallypumpadditionalenginegrowlorenginenoiseintothespeakersofthecar.Soit,like,soundedmoresatisfying,likeyouareacceleratingmore.Soundedmorelikearacecar,Iguess.Andsothepointtherearethoseexamplesarewaysofmakinganexperiencemoreimmediatelysatisfying,andbecauseit'smoreimmediatelysatisfying,youwanttorepeatitagain.Allright,sothat'showtheprocessworksinyourbrainforgettingahabittostick,forgettingyoutoremainconsistent.Sohowdowetranslatethatintodailyactionsorhabits?


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Well,alotofthetime,thehabitsthatwe'relookingtoperformarewhatIwouldcallkindofhabitsofavoidance,likedon'tdrinkalcoholfor30daysordon'tspendmoneyonAmazon,orgoouttoeatlessandcookmoremealsathome.Andthehardpartaboutalotofthosehabitsisthatwhenyou'reframingitinthatway,you'reonlythinkingaboutresistingsomethinglikenotspendingmoneyornotgoingouttoeat,ornotdrinking.Andit'sinherentlydifficultforhabitslikethattofeelsatisfying,becauseitfeelslikeallyou'redoingisresistingtemptation.SoIthinkamoreeffectivewaytogethabitstostickinthelongrunistokindaflipthatonitsheadandfocusonawaytomakeitimmediatelysatisfyinginthemoment.

So,forexample,oneofmyreaders,heandhiswifewantedtoeatoutlessandcookmealsathomemore.Andsowhattheydidwastheyopenedupasavingsaccountandtheylabeledit"TriptoEurope,"andthenwhenevertheydidn'tgoouttoeatatarestaurantandstayedhometocookdinnerinstead,theywouldtransfer$50overtothataccount.Sotheystilldidn'tgetthesatisfactionofgoingouttoeatrightaway,buttheywereabletogettheimmediatesatisfactionofseeingthesavingsaccountgrow,andattheendoftheyear,theyputthemoneytowardtheirtriporwhatever.Andthat'sagoodexampleofawaytoaddalittlebitofimmediatesatisfactiontosomethingthatwouldotherwisefeellikeyou'reresisting.And,again,whenabehavior'simmediatelysatisfying,youhaveareasontorepeatitagaininthefuture.

Sothat'sthefirstansweristryingtofindawaytomakeitimmediatelysatisfyinginthemoment.AndalsoIshouldjustsayoftentimesschoolsandteachersandkindergartenclassroomsandsoonwilldothistypeofthingallthetime,right,likeanytimethechilddoestheir,like,dailyreading,theyget,like,areadingstarputonthechartorsomethinglikethat.Andthoserewardslikethat,whetherthey'restarsonachartortokensorcoinsthatgointoanaccountorseeinganactualsavingsaccountincreasewhenyoutransferthemoneyover,thosearealljustwaysofhaving,like,animmediatemeasurementthatprovidesalittlebitofsatisfactioninthemoment.Sothat'sonewaytokeepyourselfmotivatedinthelongrun,andIhaveabunchofotherexamplesaboutthatinthebook.

Thesecondthing,though,toconsideristhatasahabitbecomesformed,asitgetsbuilt,wecometoexpecttheoutcome,webecomeusedtoit,itbecomesnormal.Andwhenit'snormal,we'remorelikelytogetboredandlesslikelytostayengagedandstayfocusedonthetask.AndthisiswhereyoucanimplementwhatIcalltheGoldilocksRule.So,theGoldilocksRuleisthisideathathumansexperiencepeaklevelsofmotivation,theystaymotivatedandstaysustainedonahabitwhentheyareworkingontasksofjustmanageabledifficulty,sonottoohard,nottooeasy,justright,that'stheGoldilocksprinciple.

Asanexample,imaginethatyou'replayingtennis.Ifyouplaytennisagainst,like,aprofessionallikeSerenaWilliamsorRogerFedererorsomebodylikethat,it'sgonnagetboringprettyquickbecauseyou'regonnaloseeverypoint.Ontheotherside,ifyouplaytennisagainst,like,athree-year-old,itmightbecuteforasecondbutifyou'reactuallytryingto,like,playarealmatch,it'sgonnabeboringreallyquickbecauseyou'regonnawineverypoint.Butifyouplayagainstsomebodywhoisyourpeer,whoisyourequal,youwinafewpoints,theywinafewpoints,youhaveachancetowinthematchbutonlyifyoureallytry,that's,like,themostmotivatinglevelbecauseit'srightontheedgeofyourability.

Andwhatyoufindwithmanyhabitsisthatpeoplefallintooneoftwotraps.Eithertheystartandtheystartdoingthesamethingandtheyneveradvance,sothenitbecomessoeasythattheygetboredwithitandthen


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theyjustgiveup,anditjust,like,fadesawaybecauseit'sboring.Or,theyadvancetooquickly,so,like,goingtothegymisaclassicexample,you,like,go,youaddmaybefivepoundseachtimeandthenyouturnaround,like,eightweekslaterandit'stoohardandyoufeelfrustratedbecauseyou'renolongermakingprogressandsoon.Andtheygouptooquicklyandsothenitgetsboringbecauseitfeelslikethey'rejustfailingeverytime.

Butwhatyouwanttodoistrytoliveonthatlittlerazor'sedge,onthatperimeterofyourability.Andifyou'reabletodothat,whereyou'rewinning,like,atleast50%ofthetime,maybeevenalittlebitmorethanthat,that'senoughforyoutostaymotivated,andthenyou'restillbeingchallengedtheotherhalfofthetimeandyouhavetostayfocused.Soscientistshavequantifiedthisandthey'vefoundthatit'saboutmaybe4%to5%beyondyourcurrentability.

Now,indailylife,it'sreallyhardtoknow,youknow,"AmImeditating4%harderthanIwasyesterday?"or,"AmIwriting4%betterthanIwasyesterday?"It'schallengingtoknowthat,butIthink,still,it'slikeaguidingprincipleorthisideaof,"Okay,youknow,I'vebeendoingthishabitforalittlewhile,howdoIadvancejustatouch,right,justalittlebitmorethanwhatIwasbeforesothatI'mbeingchallengedstillandhaveareasontostayengagedandstayfocused?"AndIthinkifyoucancombinethosetwoanswers,theGoldilocksRuleandstayingontheperimeterofyourability,andmakeitsatisfyingandfindingwaystobesatisfiedimmediatelyfromthehabit,thenyou'vegottwopowerfulstrategiesformakingahabitstickandmakingitlastinthelongrun.

Katie:Yeah,that'ssuperhelpful.AndIthinktheothersideofthatis,especiallyanyonewho'striedtochangeahabitregardingfoodbutreallyanything,isthatthereseemstobeapointatwhichalotofpeoplekindoffalloffthewagonandhavetogetbackon.Soarethereanyparticularlyactionabletipsforgettingbackonahabitifyou'veletitlapse?

James:Yeah.Myfavoritestrategyforthisis,whatIcall,"Nevermisstwice."So,youknow,I'vebeenguiltyofthisjustlikeeverybodyelse.Allhabitstreakscometoanendatsomepoint,youknow,you,like,startadietandyoudoitforfivedaysandthenonthesixthday,yourfriendswanttogotohappyhouroryoubingeeatapizzaorsomething.Andusually,forwhateverreason,wehavethistendencywherewekindoffallintothisallornothingmindset,youknow,it'slike,andthenthenegativeself-talkstarts.It'slike,"Oh,see,IknewIwasgoingtoscrewitup,IknewIwasn'tmeanttosticktothisdiet,"or,"Imustnothave,youknow,whatittakestobecutoutforthis,"orwhatever.

Andinstead,Iliketoremindmyself,"Justnevermisstwice."Now,IwishIhadn'tbeenjadeorIwishIhadn't,youknow,likeskippedthemealandgonetothathappyhourorwhatever.Butletmepourallmyattention,energy,andfocusintomakingsurethenextmealisahealthyone,orforme,itoftenhappensasawriter.ForthefirstthreeyearsthatIwroteonjamesclear.com,IwouldwriteanewarticleeveryMondayandThursday.And,youknow,ifImissedonMonday,well,Iwishthathadn'thappened,buthowdoIpourallmyattentionintomakingsureIdon'tmissonThursday?Nevermisstwice.

AndIthinkifyoucanemploythatstrategy,thenyoustarttointernalizesomethingthat'simportanttorealizeinthelongrun,whichisit'salmostneverthefirstmistakethatruinsyou,it's,like,thespiralofrepeated


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mistakesthatfollows.Andifyoucanavoidthatspiral,ifyoucangetbackontrackasquickaspossible,thenyou'llfindthatyoustartanewhabitstreakandinthelongrun,thaterrororthatslip-upwasjustablipontheradar,itdoesn'treallyevenmeananything.Buttherealkeyisembracingthatideaof"Nevermisstwice"andgetbackontrackquickly.

Katie:Yeah.Ithinkthat'ssuchagreattipandbecause,you'reright,ittendstogotheotherway.Peoplearelike,"Oh,well,IalreadymessedupsoI'mjustgonnakeepdoingthisuntilnextMonday,"oruntil,youknow,thefirstofthemonthoruntilsomefuturepointinwhichthey'regonnagetbackontrackwhichonlymakesitthenharderandharderandharder.

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ThispodcastisbroughttoyoubyThriveMarket.I’vebeenusingThriveMarketforyears,eversincetheyfirstopenedandIknowmanyofyouhaveaswell,butIwantedtomakesureyou’reuptodateonacouplethingsthatmakethemevenmoreawesome.First,ifyouhaven’ttriedit,theyhaveareallyeasytouseappthatmakesorderingeasythatmakesorderingonlinesupersimple.Iusethisallthetime…downloaditatalinkI’llmentioninaminuteanduseittokeepyouronlinegrocerylistandtoorderwhenyouneedanorder.Second,ifyouhaven’tnoticed,theyhaveabunchofsecretfreegiftswithpurchaseformembersonly!Sothismeansanytimeyoumakeapurchaseandafreegiftisavailable,youreceiveafreegiftinyourorder.Ioftencheckbackafewtimesaweekbecausethey’vehadsomeofmyfavoritethingsasafreegiftwithpurchase.MystrategyistoaddthingstomycartintheappasIthinkofthemoraswerunout,thenonceIhitthethresholdforfreeshippingandthefreegift,Iorderwhenit’sagiftthatIwoulduse.Andlasttip,makesuretocheckouttheThriveMarketbrandwhenyou’reontheapporwebsitebecausetheyhaveputalotoftimeandeffortdevelopingtheirownlineofhighqualityproducts.Theynowhavetheirownlineofreallyhighqualityproductsatreallygreatprices.Thisisnowmygo-toforpantrystapleslikegrainfreeflours,bakingsoda,nuts,etcandforsardines,tunaandcannedgoodsandevenfordiapers.Findoutmoreaboutalloftheseandgetanextradiscountonyourfirstorderatthrivemarket.com/katie

Katie:Also,youbroughtupagoodpointinthebook,andI'dloveforyoutogodeeperonthis,abouttalentversushabits,andIwouldloveifyoucouldkindofelaborateonthatandhowmuchisitreallytalentandgenesversusoureffortandourhabit?

James:Yeah.SoIhaven'tseenmanypeopletalkaboutthisyet,butIthinkit'sareallyimportantareaandI'llalsobeinterestedtoseehowitadvancesoverthenext,inthecomingyearsanddecades,because,andthere'salotforustolearninthisaswell.Soalotofthetime,peopledon'tliketotalkaboutgenes,becausetheynaturallythinkgenesarefixedandyoustarttohearwordslikebiologicaldeterminismor,"Oh,ifit'sall


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pre-determined,then,like,whytryanyway,whybother?"Butthat'snotactually,Ithink,themessagethatweshouldtakeawayfromthis.

Sofirstofall,it'simpossible,youcannothavegenesthatareoutsideofanenvironment,sothegenesandtheenvironmentarealwaysco-interacting.Andtheusefulnessofaparticularsetofgenesisdeterminedbytheenvironmentthatit'sinorbythechallengesthatitfaces.So,forexample,ifyou'resevenfeettall,that'saveryusefulsetofgenesifyouareonabasketballcourtandyouwanttodunkabasketball,butit'snotveryhelpfulatallifyou'reonabalancebeamandyouwanttodoacartwheelorgymnastics.Andsoinasense,thesetofgenesofbeingsevenfeettall,theusefulnessofthemishighlydeterminedbywhatenvironmentorcontextyou'rein.

Andthisis,like,fairlyobvioustouswhenwetalkaboutphysicalcharacteristics,butit'salsotrueofpsychologicalonesandof,like,ourpersonality,forexample.SoIcoverthisagaininmoredetailinthebook,butthemostrobustmeasureofpersonalitythusfariswhat'scalledtheBigFive,anditmapspersonalityontofivedifferentspectrums.Andsothemostcommononethatmostpeoplearefamiliarwithasoneofthespectrumsisintroversionononesideandextroversionontheother,andthereareotheroneslikeconscientiousnessoragreeablenessandsoon.

Butwhereyoufallonthatspectrumhasbeenlinkedtoyourgenes,sothereissomegeneticunderpinningforthesepersonalitytraits.Andwhateversetofpersonalitytraitsthatyouhavemayinfluencewhichhabitsyoufindmoreattractiveorinteresting.Forexample,someonewhoishighinagreeablenessisthekindofpersonthatiswarmandconsiderateandkind.Andyoumightimagineifsomebodyhasgenesthatpredisposethemtobeingwarmandconsiderateandkind,thentheymightfinditeasiertobuildthehabitof,like,writingthankyounotes,forexample,ortobuildthehabitof,like,gettingfriendstogethertohangoutontheweekendorsomethinglikethat.Andsomeonewho'slowinthatparticularcategoryorspectrummightstrugglewithsomeofthosehabits.

Sointhatsense,understandingyourselfatamoregeneticlevelmighthelpyourealizewhichhabitsyou'reprimedforandwhichonesyoumightneedmorehelpwith.Butthesecondthingthatitdoesisthatitcanhelpinformyourstrategy.Inotherwords,itcantellyouwhereyoumightneedtoapplymoreeffortorwhichstrategymightbemoreusefulforyoubasedonwhatcomesnaturallyandwhatdoesn't.So,forexample,ifsomeoneis,like,lowonconscientiousness,thentheytendtobelessorderlyorlessorganized.

Well,ifyou'rethetypeofpersonwhoisn'tveryorderlyandorganized,thenyou'reprobablylesslikelyto,like,justremembertodoitortomakeato-dolistorsomethinglikethat.AndyoumightbenefitmorefromsomeoftheenvironmentdesignstrategieswhichItalkaboutinChapters6and12,andwetalkedalittlebitmoreaboutitduringthisconversationaswell.Becausebeinginanenvironmentthatremindsyoutodoit,orbeinginanenvironmentthatnudgesyouinaparticulardirectionishelpfulifyouhavethatkindofpersonalitywhereyou'remorepronetobespontaneousorchaoticorjustkindof,like,doingstuff,youknow,onawhim.Andsohavingastructuredenvironmentcouldbemorehelpfulforyoubecauseyou'relesslikelytojustremembertodoit.


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Sothereareavarietyofideasthere,andIhaven'treallybeenabletoteaseoutallofthembutIthinkthereisdefinitelysomeinsighttherein,like,understandingyourselfandyourpersonalityandwhatgenesarepredisposingyoutoward.Butyourgenesdon'tpredeterminewhatyoucanaccomplishorwhatyou'regonnado.Theysimplydetermineyourareasofopportunity,youknow,likewhich...basicallyhowhighyourceilingisinaparticulararea.Now,whetheryoucapitalizeonthatisdeterminedbyhowmuchworkyouputinand,youknow,whatyou'respendingyourtimeon.

Sothepunchlineofthatsectionisthatgenesdonottellusnottoworkhard,thatit'sjustallpre-determinedandthere'snoreasontotry.Insteadtheytelluswheretoworkhard.Theydon'teliminatetheneedforstrategy,theyinformourstrategy.Andbyunderstandingyourselfatadeeperlevel,youcanmoreaccuratelydeterminehowtoapproachyourhabitsandwhichonestofocuson.

Katie:Ilovethat.AndIthinkanotherpointthatyoumakesowellinthebookis,likeyoumentionedinthebeginning,thevalueofthoselittletinychangesthataddupovertime.BecauseIthinkthetemptationcanoftenbe,especiallyaroundNewYear'soranytime,buttheideaof,"I'mgonnamakethesemassivechanges,andI'mgonnasticktothemallatonceandmywholelifeisgonnabedifferent."Andyoumakeareallycompellingcasefor,actually,thatyou'remorelikelytomakethosechangesifthey'resmallandconsistentversusthesemassivechangesallatonce.Socanyouspeaktothat,likegivepeoplekindofsomeinsightthereonhowsmallcanachangebeandstillbeaveryusefullong-termhabit?

James:Well,soIliketorecommendpeopleemploywhatIcallthetwo-minuterule,andthetwo-minuteruleisbasically,itjustsaystakewhateverhabityou'retryingtobuildandscaleitdowntojustthefirsttwominutes.So,"Read30booksayear,"becomes,"Readonepage,"or,"Doyogafourdaysaweek,"becomes,"Takeoutyouryogamat,"or,"Goforarun,"becomes,"Putonyourrunningshoes."Andthissounds,like,kindofsillytopeoplesometimes,becausethey'relike,"Well,youknow,Iknowtherealgoalistoactuallyruneachday,it'snottoputonmyrunningshoes,so,like,whywouldIbotherdoingthat?"

Butifyoufeelthatway,thenIwouldencourageyoutoactuallylimityourselftojustthefirsttwominutes.Andmyfavoritestoryofthis,Ihaveareaderwhoendeduplosingover100pounds,andthewaythathediditoroneofthethingsthathedidwashewenttothegymeachdaybuthedidn'tallowhimselftostayforlongerthanfiveminutes.Sohewoulddrivetothegym,getout,do,like,halfanexercise,getbackinhiscar,drivehome.Anditsoundssillytopeopleatfirst,butwhatyourealizeafteryouthinkaboutitalittlebitmoreisthathewasmasteringtheartofshowingup.Andthisisacrucial,fundamentalthingthatallhabitshavetogothroughforyoutoactuallygettowhereyouwanttogo,foryoutoachievethis,whateverthisbigambitiousthingisthatyouultimatelywanttogetto.

Thecorelessonisthatahabitmustbeestablishedbeforeitcanbeimproved.Ifyoudon'tmastertheartofshowingup,thenyoudon'tactuallyhaveanythingtooptimize.Andsobybeingthetypeofpersonwhowenttothegymforfiveminuteseachday,heturnedaroundsixweekslaterandwaslike,youknow,"I'mcominghereallthetime,Ikindoffeellikestayingalittlebitlonger."Which,ofcourse,isexactlytheoppositeofhowmostpeoplefeelwhentheytrytochangetheirhabits,theyusuallyaresomething,like,theygetsupermotivated,theydosomereallyintenseworkoutprogram,theygofor45minutestoanhour,theyare


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sweatinglikecrazy,andtheydothisforeightdaysandthentheyburnout,andthentheyturnaroundthreemonthslaterandthey'relike"Oh,Ineedtogetinshape."

Butbytakingitfromthecompleteoppositesideofthespectrum,bymasteringtheartofshowingup,byscalingitdowntojustthefirsttwominutesorless,youcanbecomethetypeofpersonwhodoesthateachdayorwhoshowsupeachday.Andonceyou'rethetypeofpersonwhoshowsup,thenyouhavealotofoptionsforimproving.AndsoIthinkthatthat'slikeamuchmoreusefulwaytofocusonmakingchangesis,"HowcanImastertheartofshowingupandbethetypeofpersonwhoisthereeveryday?AndonceI'mthetypeofpersonwho'sthere,evenifit'sonlyfortwominutes,thenIcanbecomethetypeofpersonwhodoesitbetter."

Katie:Ilovethat.Ithinkthat'ssuchgoodcontext.Andforsomelistening,Idefinitelywouldrecommendthebookandthatwillbelinkedintheshownotes.Iknowit'savailableeverywherebooksaresold,butforsomeonewho'slisteningandrealizingsomeofthesepatternsintheirownlifeandwantingtomakechangesintheirhabits,canyourecommendagoodstartingpoint?Imean,obviously,readingthebook,butbeyondthat,wherewouldyourecommendthattheytakethatfirstbabystep?

James:Yeah,that'sagoodquestion.SoIthink,wetalkedalittlebitaboutkeystonehabitsandfiguringout,like,whichareaiskindofthehighestleveloneforyouortheareathatmightmakethebiggestdifferenceinotherareasoflifekindofrippleout.SoIthinkifIwasgonnarecommendawaytostart,Iwouldsay,firstofall,justpickonehabit.Secondly,thinkalittlebitaboutwhatthosekeystonehabitsmightbe,likewhataretheareaswherethingsgowellforyouandtheykindofrippleintoothers,andjustpickoneofthose.Andthenthethirdthingwouldbetoutilizethisideaofthetwo-minuteruleandscaleitdowntosomethingreallyeasythatyoucanshowupwitheachday.

Andthenonceyouhavethat,so,sayit'slike,"I'vedecidedthatactuallyit'sthehabitofreading,andI'mjustgonnareadonepage,"thenyoujusttrytodothatanddevelopthatkindofidentityanddothatforthefirst,say,fourweeksorsixweeksoreightweeks,becomethetypeofpersonwhoshowsupanddoesthateveryday.Andonceyoureinforcethatidentity,thenyoucanupdateandexpandandimprovefromthere.

Andthiscomesbacktooneofthecentralideasthat'sinthebookwhichisyouwanttodeveloptheidentitythatyou'reultimatelylookingtoachieveandnotnecessarilytheresult.Oftenwe'resofocusedontheresultslike,youknow,"Iwanttolose30poundsinthenextsixmonths,"or,"Iwannadoublemyincome,"or,"Iwanttomeditatefor20minutesaday."Andthereisnothingwrongwiththoseresultsbuttherealthingthatyou'relookingtodoistodevelopanewidentity,youknow,thegoalisnotto,like,gotothegym,thegoalistobecomesomeonewhoworksouteachday.Thegoalisnottorunamarathon,thegoalistobecomearunner.Thegoalisnottomeditatefor20minutes,thegoalistobecomeameditator.

Andsoonceyouadoptthatidentityof,"I'mthetypeofpersonwhodoesn'tmissworkouts,"or,"I'mthetypeofpersonwhomeditateseachday,evenifit'sonlyfor60seconds,"thenyou'reinamuchmorepowerfulplace.Becauseinasense,truebehaviorchangeisanidentitychange.You'renotevenreallytryingtopursuebehaviorchangeanymore,you'rejustactinginalignmentwiththetypeofpersonthatyoualreadybelieve


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thatyouare.AndIthinkthatthewaytodothatiswhatIjustrecommended,scaleitdowntojusttwominutes,focusonthatkeystonehabit,mastertheartofshowingup,dosomethingeasy,makea1%change,butdoitmoreconsistentlythanyoueverhave.

Katie:Ilovethat,Ithinkthat'sincrediblyprofound.AndIknowapreviouspodcastguest,JimKwik,madethatpointalittlebitdifferentlybuthesaid,"Ifwerealizedtrulythepowerofoursubconscious,wewouldnevertellourselvesanythingthatwedidn'twanttobetrue."AndIthinkyoumakeagreatpointabouthowtodothatinanactiveway,howtoreframeyouridentityandtobecomethatpersonversusjustfocusingonagoalthatisexternal,actuallyshiftingyourinternalfocus.AndIthinkthatmakestotalsenseofwhenwereallywouldseeprofoundchanges,andwhenwe'reabletoshiftourperceptionofourselfandthestandardstowhichweholdourselvesandhowweviewourselves.SoIlovethat,Ilovethat.Ithinkthat'ssuchanamazingpointthatyoujustmade.

James:Oh,thankyou.Yeah,Ithinkit'scrucialfortheprocessoflong-termchange.Ultimately,whatyou'relookingtodoisreinforceyourdesiredidentitytobecomethetypeofpersonyouwanttoberatherthantoachieveanyindividualresult.

Katie:Absolutely.AndIcan'tbelievewe'vealreadyalmostflownthroughourentirehourtogether,butaquestionthat'salittlebitunrelatedthatIlovetoasksomewhatselfishlyattheendis,ifthereisabookorabook,besidesyourownobviously,that'sreallymadeaprofoundimpactonyourlife?I'manavidreadersoI'malwayslookingfornewideas.

James:Sure.SoI'llgiveyouthree,actually.Sothefirstoneiscalled"ManualforLiving"byEpictetus,it'soneofthosestoicphilosophersandoneofthoseancienttexts.It'sprettyshort,youcanreaditin,like,anhour,it'sveryaccessibleandeasytoread.It'snotgonnabethetypeofthingsthatyou'veneverheard,likeit's,youknow,thingslikefocusonwhatiswithinyourcontrol,notwhatisoutsideofyourcontrol.Buttherearelessonsthathavestoodthetestoftimefor2,000years,andweallneedtoberemindedofthemeverynowandthen,soit'sagoodwaytospendanhour.Sothat'scalled"ManualforLiving"byEpictetus.

Thesecondoneiscalled"TheLessonsofHistory"byWillandArielDurant,andsotheywereahusband/wifecombo.Andtheywerehistorians,andtheyspent,like,60years,theirentirecareerwritingthisincrediblylongcompendium,this,like,encyclopedic12-volumeseriesofeverythingthathadhappenedthroughouthistory,likeallthemajorevents.Andaftertheyfinishedwiththishugemassiveproject,theywrotealittle100-pagebookcalled"TheLessonsofHistory"thattalksabouttheoverarchingandrecurringthemesthroughouthistory,kindalikethepiecesofhumannaturethatariseagainandagainandseemtobestandardacrosstimeeven,youknow,acrosscenturieseven.Andsoassomeonewho'sveryinterestedinhabitsandhumanbehavior,Ithinkthat'sacoollittleinsightintohowweoperateandideasthattendtolast.

Andthenthethirdandfinalone,Ibelieveit'scalled"LettersfromaSelf-MadeMerchanttoHisSon."AndIthinkitwaswrittenintheearly1900s,maybe1910s,1920s.Andit'sjustaseriesoflettersthatthisentrepreneur,thisfatherwrotetohisyoungersonwhowasincollegewhentheystartedandthen,like,throughouttheearlyyearsofhiscareer.Andthey'rejustinterestinglessonsaboutbusinessandsomelife


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lessonsinthereaswell,andyoucantellthatit'sdatedinsomeofthelanguageandsomeofthethingsthatitsays.Buttherearealsoalotof,like,interestinginsightsinthereaswell.SoIthinkthosethree,"ManualforLiving,""LessonsofHistory,"and"LessonsfromaSelf-MadeMerchanttoHisSon"areallinterestingbooksthatalotofpeoplehaven'tcheckedout.

Katie:Iloveit.I'maddingallofthosetomyreadinglistnowandforanyonewhowantstocontinuelearningfromyou,ofcourse,Irecommendgettingthebook,butwhereelsecantheyfindyouonlineandwherecantheyjumpin?

James:Yeah,thankyou.Soifyou'dliketojustcheckoutmoreofmywork,youcangotojamesclear.com.Clickon"Articles,"Ihavethemorganizedbytopicandcategory,soyoupokearoundalittlebitandseewhatinterestsyou.Andthenifyouliketocheckoutthebook,it'scalled"AtomicHabits:AnEasy&ProvenWaytoBuildGoodHabits&BreakBadOnes,"andyoucanfinditatatomichabits.com.Andalsoonthatpage,therearesomebonusmaterials,sothereislikeaguideonhowtoapplytheideastoparenting,aguideonhowtoapplytheideasinthebooktobusiness.Ihaveatrackertemplatefortrackingyourhabitsandacoupleotherthingsaswell.And,anyway,allofthatisatatomichabits.com.

Katie:Awesome.I'llmakesurethatlink'sintheshownotesaswell.But,James,thankssomuchforyourtimetoday.IreallydidloveyourbookandI'msogratefulyoutooktimetobeherewithustoday.

James:Oh,wonderful.Thankyousomuch,Ireallyenjoyedit.

Katie:Andthankstoallofyouforlistening,andIhopeyou'lljoinmeagainonthenextepisodeof"TheWellnessMamaPodcast."

Ifyou'reenjoyingtheseinterviews,wouldyoupleasetaketwominutestoleavearatingorreviewoniTunesforme?Doingthishelpsmorepeopletofindthepodcast,whichmeansevenmoremomsandfamiliescouldbenefitfromtheinformation.Ireallyappreciateyourtime,andthanksasalwaysforlistening.

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Episode 229: How to Use Atomic Habits to Change Your Life€¦ · 1 Episode 229: How to Use Atomic Habits to Change Your Life. ... hockey stick portion of the curve where, you know