ek dink vra my eers di e ek kyk. 30 · sekere di nge verband ho u met die proses van rewolusie. Ek-skuus, Edelagbare, dit - . Wel l t hat is a quest ion of argum ent wh ich really

51 I sak Daniel de Vries

een onder andere eis hulle ook dat sul ke dae gevier word deur \

d i e ANC, dat hulle sulke dae beskou as herdenkingsdae van d i e

ANC en daarom terug na my vorige ste l ling, Edelagbare, dat

daarom kan ek d i t selde daar wat my aanbetref as ~ student van

rewolus i e, die weerlegbare vermoede bestaan dat su l ke dae en

gebeurtenisse in die rewolusion~re proses gebruik kan word ten

gunste van die rewolus i on~re organi sasie maar ek meen on s stem

s aam a l hoewel ek nie d irekte verband sien hier mnr. 50ggott,

ons stem saam die 5ishabas is vol fe i telike inkorrekthede.

Di e vraag is, verander d i t enige ie ts aan die moontlikheid wa t 10

sekere di nge verband ho u met die pros es van rewolus i e. Ek-

skuus, Edelagbare, dit - .

Wel l t hat is a ques t i on of arg um ent wh i ch really my

lear ne d friend will deal with. He wi l l prot ect you from many

questions which one might consider unfai r but i t is no t f or

you with respect, to question the direction of t he cross

examination and where it is heading. You have made the po i nt

about my views and really this should have been disposed of

half an hour ago. Let me just read this to you; I am referring

to 5ishaba of the first quarter of 1977, volume 11 and there at 2(

page 23 they have the fOllowing; "Jim Kruger" of whom I assume

they are referring to the former honourable Minister, "growled

that black power would have to be destroyed if race riots were

not to become the order of the day. It must be noted that the

term "Black Power" has now been adopted by the press and the

authorities to avoid admitting that the clenched fis t an d the

slogan "Amantsa, Ngaweto, power to the people" is th e s logan

of th e African National Congress, the slogan whi ch ros e a ll

over during the demonstration by blacks.1I Would you like to

see th i s? --- Ag ek dink vr a my ee rs di e vraag dan sa l ek kyk. 30

The question is we all know that black consciousness and

black/ . .. .

•

52 Isak Daniel de Vries

black power consciousness has been wi despread and that the

"Black Power salute ll has been widespread and what they are

doing here is really claiming that as their own and saying it

i s really the ANC ' s salute which the authorities are trying to

cover up by saying it is black power. In other words it is

another gross distortion of a simple political reality?

Goed, nou laat ek so antwoord; ek meen - kan ek dit nou net

duidelik stel in Afrikaans dit kom van u se die ANC IIclaimll

onder andere se maar nou daai slagspreek soos "Black Power,

Amandelaar"; en di 'e goed, ook as hulle eie eiendom en dat dit

eintlik inkorrek is, dat ander organisasies ook - .

No-no, then you have misunders t ood me. --- Ja, ekskuus.

Lees dan net weer.

What they ar e sayin g here i s th at the black power, the

so -called black power salu te is an ANC sal ute, that wherever

there is reference to black power salute, it is t he authori

ties trying to cover up the prevelance of the ANC salute and

what 1 am putting to you that is just not on, it is not true?

--- Met ander woorde kan ek dit net so - as ek u vraag kan

10

terugvra, is dit ~ kwessie van u se dit is nie so dat die 20

swartmag saluut/groet, slegs' die ANC bevoordeel? Oit is dat

iemand anders kan ook die swartmag groet gebruik, nie die

ANC nie, is dit wat use?

I think Mr. de Vries just read that and then we might

unde r t and one another. Your Worship, my learned f r i end

pOi nts out that it is past 10,30 and perhaps the witness can

l oo k at his document during the interval.

- C 0 U R T A 0 J 0 U R. N S -

ON RESUM ING:

ISAK DANIEL DE VRIES: (steeds onder eed)

KRUISONOERVRAGING:(verv.) Oankie Edelagbare. Mr. de Vries

do/ . . ~

30

,"t

•

53 Isak Daniel de Vries ,

do you want me to put my question or is it ? --- Ja miskien

kan u net u vraag net weer stel maar ek meen ek het dit darem

inou hier deeglik deurgelees.

What they are trying to suggest there is that whenever

blacks use the ANC salute, the authorities to cover it up say

i t is the black power salute? Ja, sodat daar deur nie die

indruk gewek word dat dit die ANC se een is nie.

That is correct. So what that document is saying is that

the Government is in fact distorting facts in order to hide

ANC' popularity? --- Yes well it says the press and the authori- IC

ti es i s th e t echnical point .

That is right, that is right. In other words it is worse,

there is a conspiracy between the press and the authorities to

P I a y dow nAN C \ pop u I a r i t y ? - - - J a, n 0 u Ed e I a 9 bar e, my k 0 mm e n t a a r

as u my sal net toelaat om ~ bre~r komm en t aar t e lewer, ek weet

nie, Edelagbare, ek weet nie of u dit reeds afg eskryf het nie,

mnr. 50ggot het die eerste keer gelees het nie? Ek sou ver-

kies dat ek dit tog net weer uitlees. Ek weet nie of u dit

weer wil afskryf nie, dat die Hof bewus is van die totale be

woording soos die Star; lilt must be noted that the term 'Black 2C

Power' has now been adopted by the press and the authorities to

avoid admitting that the clenched fist and the slogan 'Amandla

Ngaweso (power to the people)' is the slogan of the 'African

National Congre~s, the slogan which rose allover dur i ng the

demonstrations by blacks.1I Nou Edelagbare, my kommentaar i n

d i e a l gemeen wat ek het, reeds dele van mnr. 50ggot ' s se vraag

beantwoord of die dele wat hy beantwoord wou he, is net dat ek

het dit a l in vorige Hofsake ook gestel dat dit kan nie gese

w 0 r d d at die s I a 9 s pre uk" Am and I a N 9 awe SOli bas i e s net die s I a 9 -

spreuk van die ANC is ni e, dit word inderda ad ook wel deur 3D

ander organisasies gebruik .

But/ ...

•

54 Isak Dan i el de Vries

But that i s not my question Mr . de vries? --- Nee maar

kan ek net klaar stel? Die punt wat ek as student van rewolu

sie net hier uit tog wil vir die Hof stel en uit die stuk wat

aan my voorgele is, is dat hoewel slagspreuk en tekens nie

nood wendig wanneer dit gebruik word by byeenkomste of op ander

gebeurtenisse, nie noodwendig gesien hoef te word as ANC slag

spreuke nie, is dit tog so dat die ANC weI moontlik daar deur

steun kan verkry omdat party mense en dit is die doel van die

publikasies van die ANC omdat party mense weI bewus mag wees

dat dit die ANC se slagspreuk is , dat hulle dit vir hulself

op e is.

Mr. de Vries please please answer my question. I did not

ask you to dea l with the revolution ary or propaganda implica

ti ons of t he "slag spre uk e. " I pO i nt ed out to you that what

they say there is that in effect there is a conspi ra cy by the I

South African Press and the Government to conceal ANC pop ul a

rity as seen in the widespread ANC salute? --- Ja voordat ek- .

My question to you is really and I think you can answer

it yes or no, is that not unmitigated rubbish? A very simple

1 C

question. Mnr. Soggot ek kan my nie uitlaat oor die bedoel- 2

ings van die pers en van die regering nie, so ek kan u werklik

nie in objektieweteit daaroor antwoord nie. Ek kan net vir u

die kommentaar wat u nou oorreed is wat ek kan antwoord op

hi erdie - ek meen ek kan nie sien hoe u kan argumentee r dat ek

- kyk hier word nou gepraat van die pers moes sekere bedo el in gs

gehad het en die regering sou sekere bedoelings gehad het en ek

is nie ~ student van die pers nie en ek is ni e ~ student van

die rege ring nie, kan ek nie aan u antwoo r d nie.

I am not asking you, please get this straight, I am not

asking you t o giv e an opinio n . If you were a journalist I 3(

would put the same question to you . If you were any other

witness/ •...

• ••


witness I would put the same question to you. Have you ever

heard of the suggestion that there i s a conspiracy to d i stort

history along those lines? Is it not manifested rubbish to

the ordinary citizen in this country ? --- Ek sal die vraag ant

woord soos wat u nou net geformeer het dat ek het nog nie ge-

hoor van sO'n "conspiracyll nie.

Well it is more than that, you know that the press- are

you saying - can it be suggested that the South African Press ?

has a conspiracy to distort? Is this a bizantime Republic or

is something else where you cannot have such absurd distortion

on a giant scale? Is it not to be rejected out of hand without

any qualificat i on? Mnr. Soggot so nder om iemand te na te

kom soos wa t u nou die ding formeer het, is my antwoord ek weet

nie want ek is nie 'n student van daardie asp ekt e van die Suid

.Afrikaanse politiek~ proses nie.

You have never heard of it? Ek s@ ek het nog nie van

SO'n "conspiracy" gehoor nie, dit het ek ges@.

And with all your interest in South African SOCiety,

political and otherwise there is not the faintest sign that

10

that can be true? I am just talking about what you know. --- 20

Maar ek het aan u ges@ van die bree Suid-Afrikaanse politi~ke

proses is gebrekkig. So ek kan nie kategories stel dit is so

of dit is nie soos u dit stel nie, ek stel dit aan u ek weet

nie in verb and met daai aspek.

You won't at least concede that it is wildly i mprobable

or is your ignorance of South Africa to that extent ..... --- U

weet u speel weer met die woord "improbable . " In my eerste

Hofsaak het ek gespeel tussen "possible ll en IIp robable ll en

IIprobable II as ek dit reg verstaan ook nog'n sterker vorm as

II possible. " Ek sal dit so stel, dit is miskien moontlik .. 30

Po s sib 1 e .

Are / ....

II \


Are you saying that it -is "miskien moontlik" the South

African Press and the authorities have entered in to a con

spiracy to distort a whole sect i on of history to say that when

all the people are shouting "BLACK POWER" they are all lying?

The whole lot? Journal i sts, editors, government? --- Nee, dit

is nie wat ek gese het nie.

And saying that - well then tell us. --- Meneer, ek het

vir u gese ek weet nie .. Toe het u my probeer vasmaak op die

woord "probability" en ek het vir u gese dit is reeds te skerp.

Toe het ek vir u gese sops wat ek d i e Engelse taal verstaan i s 10

"possibility" baie meer moontlik en - .

My phrase was - ? --- Ekskuus, kan ek u net klaar antwoord?

Dus koppel ek d i e s i n met dat dit mi sk i en moontlik is aan my be

antwoordin g van di e vr aa g in d i e he el eerste en herhaaldelike

proses wanneer ek gese het ek weet nie omdat dit nie deel vorm

van my spesifieke veld van studie dus interpreteer ek my ant

woord dat dit is heel moontlik in die negatiewe sin dat dit

heelmoontlik ook nie moontlik is nie. Is dit baie duidelik?

My antwoord op u is ek weet nie. Ek herhaal; ek weet nie. Ek

het dit tog gese. Oor daai aspek, ek weet nie man, ek bestudeer 2

nie die pers nie en ek besturdeer nie die regering nie, e~ weet

wat hulle bedoelings is nie~ en omdat ek nie weet nie is dit

moontlik of dit is nie moontlik maar soos ek se my opinie oor

die saak en dit is ~ opinie al sien u dit nie so nie of u hoef

nie van kennis te neem nie want ek beroep my nie op kundigheid

oor d ie pers en owerheid nie.

Mr. de V r i e sIc ann 0 t tell yo u , 1 don 0 t beg i n to un de r

stand your answer because I have not asked you f or an expert

opinion. I have asked you for your knowledg e and a sort of

knowledge I would put to anybody in t he witness box. Have you 30

ever heard of such a thing in this country? -- - Meneer en ek

het/ .••.

\ '


het vir u gese ek weet nie.

And what I am putting to you that that is a grossly un

acceptable answer because you must know enough, you cannot live

in such an ivory tower that you cannot say to the Court that

there is nothing in my experience wh i ch suggests to me there

can be giant conspiracy in this country, involving the authori

ties and the press, just any intelligent observer would reject

that out of hand because you would have heard of such a con

spiracy, 1 expect you using your ordinary intelligence to say

and 1 come back to words; "That is rubbish." Is there an l(

answer? --- Mnr. Soggot, ek sal bly oy my antwoord, ek weet nie.

Die Hof kan dit veroordeel soos wat d i t wi 1. Ek meen ek bly by

die antwoord. Daardeur se ek nie u i s verkeerd nie maar ek -kan

nie bevestig dat u r eg is ni e.

You really do not want to ans wer? - - - Nee, ek het geant

woord. Ek het gese ek weet n1e.

Well I do not know what sort of remark that is . Wh i le we

are dealing with t~is, what has come through Mr. de Vries is

that no one, I am not talking about you but no one can rely on

Sishaba as a source of historical facts without double checking 2(

it agains objective resources, --- Ja, dit sou nie foutief wees

om te "double chech" nie, ek meen dit is 'n baie goeie akademiese

aktiwiteit maar dit is nie te se dat ~ mens die Sishaba totaal

ka n ignoreer nie. 'n Mens kan ook ander gebeurtenisse toets aa n

wat in Sishaba staan.

No , I have never suggested that. The rea l ity of Sishaba

are now with me. My phrase was as a source of f act , as a source

of evide nce. You cannot rely on anything i n th at without double

checking it. It is as Sishaba says that th e Prime Minister did

this or that the South Af rican Defence Force is desperate, you 3(

cannot accept that or anything else in it without checking

against/ ....

' \

•


against objective sources because they are prejudiced and they

distort, you conceded that? --- Ja-nee maar laat ek u s~ daar

die antwoord weI - daar is twee aspekte by so ~ antwoord wat ek

u so wil antwoord, dit is korrek ek het ges~ feitel ike inkorrekt

hede kom voor in terme van historiese gebeurtenisse maar daar

staan baie duidelik ook die Sishaba Organ of the African National

Congress, Sout Africa, en wanneer dit kom by beleidsake, wanneer

dit kom by die ANC wat sy belei~ openbaar om te s~ liOns be-oog

dit II

That goes without saying, yes. --- Nee, wag laat ek net I

klaar maak, dit i s belangrik. Wanneer dit kom by beleidsake dan

kan jy die Sishaba nie ignoreer nie en aangesien dit deur gaan

as die amptelike dokument. g10 ek dat ~ mens baie waarde daaraan

sal moet heg omdat and er dokumente ni e prim~re bronne is waarin

ANC be l eid bekend gemaak word nie.

When Sishaba we want a revolution, that is a f act? --- Ja.

1 am not talking about that. The phras~ I used was a

source of historical evidence of 'what they are saying about

other people, not their own statements of policy because that

is obvious? --- Ja . 2

That then is a fact in itself. I am talking about a source

of historical information and I am putting it to you cannot trus t

it one inch, you have got to double check1 --- Ja, goed, ek kan

- dit is so, soos ek s~ maar vir bedoeling in beleidsak e , i n

bedoeling oor wat hulle bedoel daar kan dan baie waarde aange

heg wo r d maar ek bedoel ek het dit vir u reg in d i e begin ••••

Well that is not in dispute, it is unnec essary to repeat

that pOint . Let us just look while I am deali ng wi thin this

context, at EXHIBIT Q. that is your own re port. It might have

been more satisfactory if the paragraphs were numbered but may 3

I refer you to page 4 and I am referring to the second para-

graph/ ....

•


graph. you have got that in front of you, I do not have to

read it out, I am referring to your quotation. Is that right?

Ja, dit was die 1981 Sishaba.

Yes, they are organizing, educating the matter as to word

of mouth and leaflets. They are engaged in strikes and demon

strations. They mobolize religous people, the woman and youth

and they buck up their actions with arm struggle and sabotage.

J a .

Now they are not talking about themselves, they appear to -

be saying that the black matters, are doing all this? --- Ja, 10

dit is in Afrikaans daardie, dit s~ oor die aksies van swart-

mense, ek het ni e gesu gg ereer dat dit net hulle mense is nie

ma ar d it is ook me nse wat deel i s van hulle organisasie.

Well they are talking about the black nation, that is what

they are doing. Ja.

And what they are trying to say is that everything they

do is really - I am sorry, every the black nation does it is

really their responsibility . That is what they are really try-

ing to convey. --- Goed ek meen ons kon die Hof nie probeer mis

lei het nie; daar staan dit baie duidelik, hulle s~ swartmense 21

doen dit. As u die artikel in die geheel lees, Edelagbare, die

perspektief dat dit begin op bladsy I reeds en dan gaan dit aan

op bladsy 2, dat dit aangaan, dat dit gaan - die opskrif - .

I am sorry, can I interrupt you? If I can jus t get my own

copy? That is July? Are you on page 2? --- Wag net, di t i s op

blad sy I op die oomblik asseblief. Die opskrif p Edelagbare. is

II Ant i C o'm m u n ism inS 0 u t h A f ric a . II 0 a n a s e k d i tee r sin A f r i -

kaans ka n stel, Edelagbare, dat die ANC, mee ste van hulle gaan

hier uit om die standpunt te probeer maak. die punt te probeer

maak dat die stryd in Suid-Afrika nie soos wat hulle se die 3

regering presenteer ~ kommunistiese stryd in die eerste plek is / •...

~'\I

•

•


is nie, hulle stryd teen kommunisme nie maar dat dit basies

gaan oor wat ek in die opsomming s~, die demokratiese rewolusie

in Suid-Afrika~ en - ek weet nie of die Hof dit wil afskryf so

weI maar s~ hulle op bladsy 1 in die eerste paragraaf nog;

"Many of our - II it is in the middle of the first paragraph Mr.

Soggot; "Many of our comrades including Priests and religious

people have been arrested and detained under this law; some

have even been ki lIed 'because they are communists.' Ekskuus

die antwoord is bietjie lank maar ek gaan op u punt terugkom.

Dan net 'n end j i eon d e r toe s e h u I Ie; II R e c e n t I Y II n 0 g s tee d sop I

bladsy 1; "Recently the underground gorillas of our liberation

movement," it is the third parargraph; "Recently the under-

ground gorillas of our liberation movement intensified the I

struggle inside the country through strikes demonstrations,

sabotage and armed actions." Goed en dan soos ek s~ verder op

uitbreiding op die punt dat die stryd nie weI eintlik ~ kommu

,nistiese stryd sal wees nie, ek meen dit is onderwerp on sulk

self maar goed. Dan op bladsy 2 wil ek nou net bietjie meer

aanhaal as die aanhaling wat ek reeds in my stukke op bladsy 4

het, s~ hulle ook; liThe blacks are concerned with more relevant 2

issues, they are busy discussing the freedom charter that is

solving idealogical questions of our struggle and shortening

the spears. They are demanding ' the release of Nelson Mandela

and all political prisoners in South Africa. They are organiz

ing educating the masses through word of mouth and leaflets."

Dan die stuk wat ek weI op my - 0 ja, ekskuus daardie sinnetjie

wat ek nou net gelees het begin reeds al in my stuk. Nou ek

weet nie of ek mnr. Soggot se vraag heeitemal korrek verstaan

het nie maar ek meen ek stem met hom saam hulle praat hier van

"blacks" maar in die kontext wat ek nou vir u ook ander aan- 30

halings gegee het, Edelagbare, die waar ek se; "Recently the

underground/ . _._

•

•

61 Isak Dan i el de Vr i es

underground of our liberation movement intensified. 1I Daar se

hulle lI our liberation movement. 1I 50 die artikel gaan ook oor

ANC lede en nou maar goed, ek kan sien dat mnr . 50ggot hieroor

'n g roo t dis P u u t w i 1 m a a k 0 f die II b I a c k s II no u n i e die AN C 1 ed e

insluit nie. Ek sou dit so interpreteer dat onder die artikel

weI verwysing het na - weI aan gorillas, ANC gorillas en plus

verwysing hierso laat d i e IIblacksll is besig met die IIfreedom

charter to disc uss, demanding the release of Nelson Mandela,1I

'n voorleier van die ANC, dat die ANC se bedoeling hier was dat

die IIblacksll waarvan hier praat ook i nderdaad ten minste ANC 10

lede insluit omdat hulle hierdie "issues ll ophaal soos ek nou

vir die Hof te breedvoerig gele~s het. Die punt wat ek net wil

se is hoekom ek die ~anhaling op bla dsy 4 het is om net as nog

~ bewys te di en vi r my aanhaling op bladsy 2, goed dit was nie

d i e enigste bedoeling nie .

Mr. de Vries I am not challenging that . --- Om die veel

fasette - ek sluit af, om die veel fasettigheid van die st ryd

aan te toon.

I am not challenging your use of it in this way . --- Ja •

When they say IIblacks ll they do not say IIsome blacks ll they 20

say IIblacksll meaning black nation and what they are really say

ing is the black nation is in a conspiracy. They are all i n i t

together organizing educating leaflets, strikes, demonstrations

and they are backing up their actions with arms struggle as was

the Pr iests are in the same boats and backing up thei r struggle

with arms action, presenting a global macrosco pi c picture which

i s a f an t acy. Goed, ek is met u in die ops i g. Edelagbare,

ek wil ne t he die Hof moet omdat mnr. 50ggot d i e punt so aan

sluit, ke nnis neem van my aanhaling op bladsy 2 van getuienis,

waar ek dan se, dit staan daar: "We understand an a ll round 30 confrontation with the enemyll en ek gaan nie die hele ding

verder/ .• ..

•

•


verder lees nie. Ek stem met mnr. Soggot saam, die ANC projek

teer ~ globale prentjie en dit is waarom ek net nou die woord

Ilweerlegbare vermoede ll gebruik het. Nou is my argument en ek

moet u kan s@ ek gee toe dit is ~ argument seker, dat uit die

hand hiervan en soos ek s@ daar is nou meer as een basies waar-

in hierdie globale prentjie geskep word, dat aIle Priesters dan

nou en aile ander mense moet op sekere terrein deel is van die

rewolusion@re proses, dat daar ~ weerlegbare vermoede bestaan,

dat daar ~ weerlegbare vermoede bestaan dat sodanige aksies weI

deel kan wees van die rewolusion@re proses omdat die ANC dit so 10

stel maar ek gee nou nie toe nie, ek meen ek stel dit net dat in

die proses is dit logies natuurlik ni e korrek en ek dink dit is

wat u ook wil by uitkom , dat dit noodwendig die geval hoef te

wees nie. Ek is nie ~ man van die reg nie. I am not a man of

l awe n ek verstaan ~ man is natu url ik onskuldig tot dat hy

skuldig bewys word maar wat die ANC hier doen is e i ntlik om te

s@ almal is skuldig maar net die Il re ligious people" te vat as

een faset. Almal is skuldig . Nou gaan dit weereens van die

Hof afhang van die spesifieke feite gegee of dit so is en ek ,

stel dit nie so, dit is slegs ~ weerlegbare vermoede dat al

hierdie aksies die rewolusion@re proses kan b~vorder maar die

20

ANC eis dit ook maar dit gaan van die spesifieke feite omstandig

hede van elke omstandigheid afhang of sodanige persone weI die

ANC bev order.

We are not challenging the suggestion that the ANC would

like t o take everyone in to their action . I am not challenging

that at all. It manifests from what they say . I am putting to

you tha t they, their description of the bla ck nation is doing

is fantac y because if there is armed action going on they may

have occasional action but the suggestion that everyone is in 30

it together in one again giant conspi r acy where all the blacks

really/ ..•

,"

•

•


really are like one? --- Ja, kyk ek meen -

Is a gross distortion of reality where we know that in any

community some people are passive and some are active and some

are against. --- Ek stem met u saam maar ek dink ek het indirek

weI so beantwoord maar die punt is terwyl u nou tegniese punte

gaan van "blacks" en nie "blacks" hu l le se darem ook nie "all

blacksll nie. Hulle se lithe blacks are concerned ll en dan het ek

vir u gelees die "blacks" waarvan hu l le praat is besig "discuss

ing the freedom charter, policy statement of a document used by

the ANC, talking about Nelson Mandel a ." So ek meen dit is so 10

dat sekere swartmense bespreek hierd i e d i nge.

No but that is not wha t th ey are say ing. They are giving

in the whole context and you raised the context, they first

quote from Nelson Mandela who deals with the issue of the

struggle as a whole and then go on to talk of the blacks. They

are not talking of some blacks. They are talking about the

nation. Is that not manifest? I just want to see if you can

concede that. --- Nee, kyk ek dink hulle is spesifiek in die

opsig van voor in die artikel het gepraat van hulle mense in

die "gorilla movements," daaroor kan ons nie stry nie. Die 20

punt is hier se hulle die "blacks," dit is die herhaling wat ek

vir die Hof gelees het, wat besig is "discussing the freedom

c h' art e r . " So e k me e n h u I lei s tot 'n mat e 00 k wei s pes i fie k ,

verstaan?

They are not. They are not because these blacks are

people who are doing all these things. They are not s ay i ng

t he blacks reading the freedom charter. This is ordinary

Engl i sh. Ja maar dit se liThe blacks are concerned,1I Edelag

bare , ek het al vir u die herhaling gegee; li The blacks are con

cerned wi th mo r e r eleva nt issues. 1I So they say t he blacks are 30

concerned with this relevant issues which they now mentioned

just/, ...

•

•


just after that, issues. "They are busy discussing the freedom

charter."

But rea don, " and the y are d' em and i n g, and the y are 0 r g ani -

zing, and they are engaged in strikes, and they are backing uR

the struggle" i s not of manifest. I do not know why I have to

spend time on this. Manifested they say attributing to th~

black nation, that they are all doing this, that they are all

really in it with the ANC and that i s why I say it is a fantacy.

--- Ja, kyk dit is, Edelagbare, ek dink dit is ~ interpretasie

verskil tussen my en mnr. Soggot. Ek ag dit omdat die sin waar 10

dit se "Blacks are concerned with more relevant issues" ag ek

aS'n basiese toespitsing weI in 'n spesifisering van die "blacksll

~ spesifieke gro ep mens e . Dit wil s e die mense wat daard i e I

goed ged oen maar ek meen ek ver s taa n mnr. Soggot se vraag maar

ek dink ons het - on interpreteer die ding verskillend.

But it is not so easy as that because it is mi sunderstand-

ing or distortion on this, then one does not know where on e can

go. There is a word missing and that is the word "who?" If

you use ordinary grammar, they do not say the blacks were doing

all these liberatory things, are the blacks who are discussing 20

freedom charter. It is generalized and I just want to see

whether you can interpret a piece of ordinary grammar in th e

proper way. Ja kyk, ek weet nie, ons is nou taa l kundig met

die "who.1I "The blacks are concerned with more relevan t is sues, "

sou u met ander woorde se as daar van die IIblacks who are con-

cerned with more relevant issues like discussing t he freedom

charter , then it would have been specific~

That is not there. --- Ja, nee maar goed soos ek se nog

steeds ek verstaan u punt en ek se nie vi r die Hof u is ver -

keerd nie maar ek interpreteer dit weI anders, dat hulle hier 30

omdat hulle dit in dieselfde sin, Edelagbare, die sin is; liThe

blacks/ • .

•

65 lsak Daniel de Vries

blacks are concerned with more relevant issues; they are busy

discussing the freedom charter" soos die "blacks that are con

cerned with the relevant issues whic h are discussing the freedom

charter" and when blacks are discussing the freedom charter,

they are discussing an ANC document.

Well you see - ? Maar ek meen dit lyk ons verskil

maar ek het nie nog ~ antwoord soos wat ek die saak sien.

But Mr. de Vries it is not so easy because if you are

going to misinterpret an ordinary piece of English, then I do

not where else you can go. They are not saying to you and we 10

have got the document in front of us , they are dealing with it

in seriat im . They are tal ki ng abou t the blacks who are con

cerned and then you can al most number it off. What are they

doing thse blacks who are concerned? This is ordinary Engli sh

analysis which one gets in first year at the University if not

in the schools. What are they doing? 1) They are busy dis

cussing; 2) They are demanding. 3) They are organizing.

Ja mnr. Soggot, miskien - ek het die gevoelentheid soos wat ek

wat ek u in die begin ook geantwoord het dat eintlik verskil ons

op die punt. Ek het vir u ges@ die kern begrip in my antwoord 20

op u is die kwessie wee~legbare vermoede. Laat ek dit so stel,

vrylating van politieke gevangenis byvoorbeeld n@, is nie net

die werk van die ANC nie. So nie net daardie "blacks" nie, so

on s i s nou eintlik op dieselfde vlak. Ek meen ek probeer nie

~ naald in die hooi gooi nie maar dit is al voorheen aan my be

stel , ek mag die persoon ook baie respek vir hom h@ maar dit is

irreleva nt maar dit is voorheen aan my geste l dat ~ man soos

- of te n minste laat ons liewers met die org an i sasie, laat die

PFP nou ~ demokratiese party binne Suid Af r i ka, ook op ~ stadium

die vrylating van Mandela bevorder het. Daarom se ek aan die 3C

hand en dit sluit almal vir ~ antwoord, het ek al voor in die

Hof / ...


H 0 f s 0 9 est e I. 0 a a r i s no 9 s tee d s wee r leg bar eve r moe d e d at 'n

persoon wat hom byvoorbeeld uitlaat oor bevryding van Mandela

en politieke gevangenis, tot daardie verlegbare vermoede is dat

hy daar deur ~ ANC doelstellings ka n bevorder omdat die ANC d i t

ook versoek, verstaan? Maar dit gaan afhang van die spesifieke

feite gegewe. Nou dit lyk nie ons stem saam met die opsig van

as hulle se IIblacksll en hulle het d i e ANC daarby bedoel, Ilall

blacksll soos u dit gelees, dan stem ek met u saam dat dit is 0

onmoontlik dat aIle IIblacks ll tot die 'llfreedom charterll bespreek

en vrylating van politieke gevangene s bepleit dat almal nou Ie

noodwendig die ANC daar deur wil bevorder. Ek meen ek het nou

die dag ook ~ verslag opgetrek maar ek het gese wat die "free-

dom charterll is en ek het dit al i n die Hof gese om dit so te

stel, dit is ~ basiese vreedsame dok ument. So dit is ~ kwessie

va n - my ar gument, Edelag bar e, ek sk uu s ek loop draaie maar die:

punt is weerlegbare vermoede uit wat hier sta an gekoppel aan my

aanhaling op bladsy 2.

Mr. de Vries I have tried not use the word but the problem

is your answers are evasive. I am asking you what is the mean-

ing of this? · You say that this refers to blacks who read the 2C

freedom charter, in other words ANC blacks? That is what you

said. I am asking you a very simple question of English. ---

Wag net ~ bietjie, wag net ~ bietjie. Ek dink u Ie die woorde

in my mond uit, wat ek alles gese het het ek gese dat die

Ilblacksll wat die "freedom charter ll kan lees, kan ook ANC l ed e

wee Se Dit is deel van die weerlegbare vermoede . In ~ sekere

geva l mag ek ook se ja, dit is ANC mense wat die "freedom

charter discuss ll maar dit kan ook gese word weens die weerleg

bare ve rm oede en ek het daardie stelling r eg in die begin - dat

ander lede wat dit "discuss ll nie noodwendig ANC lede hoef te 3C

wees nie .

Please/ ...

•


Please, the "weerlegbare vermoede" has got absolutely

nothing to do with this question. I am asking you does th i s

not refer to all blacks? In other words not every single one

but to the black nation? Mnr. Soggot ask ek u so kan - ek

meen of ek is nie wys is of nie, ek meen die oordeel is altyd

die kans wat ek vat as ek getuig maar dit is ~ kwessie van jy

1 e e s 'n par a 9 r a a fen din k d i tis II rub b ish . II E k 1 e e s 'n par a 9 r a a f ,

ek interpreteeer dit in terme van rewolusie teoriee en ek - en

daarom het ek u so geantwoord.

That is not what we are doing. I am questioning you on 10

th e meaning of thi s and you say this applies, th e people doing

this are people who are discussing t he freedom charter, that is

the qualif i ca tion . I am saying to yo u there is no basis in that

l anguage for t hat qu alificatio n . I mean i f you would like us to

have to translate that, we will do that for you . --- Kyk s~ net

vir my as ek u dit so kan vra, s~ u nou kategories dat die

swartes wat die "freedom charter" bestudeer wat hier genoem

word, glad nie aan die ANC behoort nie? Ek meen dan stem ons

saam want ek s~ daar is weerlegbare vermoede dat daar swartes

is wat weI aan die ANC kan behoort wat die ding so - . AANKLAER: Edelagbare, ek het lank geluister na die kruis-ver-

hoor van mnr. Soggot en ek wi 1 hom nie hinder in sy kruis-ver-

hoor maar dit is vir my duidelik dat mnr. de Vries en mnr .

Soggot praat heeltemal bymekaar verby. Dit is nie die eerste

keer nie. Dit het verskeie kere gebeur dat die kruis- verhoor

beg i nne. Ek wonder of dit nie wenslik is dat d i e kruis-verhoor

i n Afr i kaans voortgaan want die getuie het dus du i delik geinter

preteer sekere woorde heeltemal anders as wa t mnr. Soggot dit

doen en di t mag miskien die kern van die hel e probleem weeS e

20

MR. SOGGOT: My submission, sir, is that Mr . de Vries clearly 30

understands the question and if he did not and as he has on

occasions/ ..•.

•

•


occasions, he has asked please for an explanation. He has in

my submission answered questions in a certain way which I will

deal with in argument. I am only inviting him now sir, to

answer the question. If any of my questions are not clear then

I am sure my learned friend will be the first to jump up. I do

not think that at this stage it can be suggested that Mr. de

Vries is having linguistic problems but obviously his opinion

on that is the final word~ and if the questions have to be in

terpreted, sir, then that it shall be.

DEUR DIE HOF: (onhoorbaar - masjien krap)

--- Edelagbare, ek moet eerlik wees om te se dat ek gun nie

werklik dit is nodig nie, ek dink die ' verskille soos ek die

saak waarneem is meer interpretasie verskille tussen my en mnr.

Soggot, ek weet nie of die Hof 'n beslissing wil maak n i e . As

die Hof dink op die stadium dit is sui wer 'n taal probleem dan

sal ek my berus by die Hof se beslissing maar ek wi 1 juis nie

die indruk skep dat ek nou mnr. Soggot as ek die uitdrukking

mag gebruik, vir my nek wi I k ry deur nou die taalk"wessie. Ek

10

sou weI wou voortgaan tensy die Hof self van oordeel is dat die

Hof dink ek antwoord dalk nie hierdie vrae soos wat ek dit moet 2C

antwoord nie vanweer ~ taal probleem maar ek het persoonlik die

gevoel dat ek - dat ek tog antwoord soos wat ek kan antwoord

as ~ stud en van ~ rewolusie.

DEUR DIE HOF: (onhoorbaar)

--- Edelagbare, ek dink dan om as dit die gedagte is dan sal ek

verkies laat die vrae dan maar in Afrikaans kom of dit talk ver

tolk word. My bedoeling was om te help.

DEUR DIE HOF;

(onhoorbaar - masjien krap)

30

MNR./ ...

•


MNR. SOGGOT: Ja maar ongelukkig ek maak staat op sy advies en

sy raad tydens die kruisondervraging. Ek doen aan die hand,

Edelagbare, dat ek die vrae in Engels stel en dat dit oorgetolk

word aan die deskundigde en dat mnr. lodge wat eintlik ook die

betrokke is met die kruisondervraging, sal onmiddellik kan ver

staan.


MR. SOGGOT; I would have assumed, sir, that that must be so.


TOlK: Ek kan probeer, Agbare, maar dit is moei1lrk-~ ek wonder 10

b( ~R nie liewer moet vra dat ek dit nie doen nie. Dit i s

moeilik.


TOlK: Oat ek dit nie liewers tolk nie, Agbare. Hier word ook

- wanneer daar moeilike woorde gebruik word moet ek eers staan

en dink om ~ Afrikaanse woord te kry en ek vind dit nie sommer

maklik nie. Dit is vir my moeilik. Hier is baie moeilike

woorde wat gebruik word in hierdie saak.


MNR. SOGGOT: Ek verwag dat dit sou moeilik gaan, ek vermoed

dat mnr. de Vries se Engels is van ~ beter gehalte as my Afri

kaans maar ek bly nog steeds met die probleem van mnr. lodge,

Edelagbare, want -


MNR. SOGGOT; Ek sal maar probeer, Edelagbare, maar ek kan nie

belowe dat ek sal dit kan behartig nie.


MNR. SOGGOT: Edelagbare, mag ek vra dat die saak afstaan vir

~ paar minute want ek wil reelings tref dat mnr. Lodge dat op

20

een of ander manier, die getuienis hier aan mnr. Lodge oorgedra 3C

word .anderste kan ek nie my pligte behoorlik uitvoer nie.

DEUR/ .•.

•


DEUR OlE HOF:

(onhoorbaar)

- H 0 F V E R 0 A A G -

BY HERVATTING:

AANKLAER: Edelagbare, tydens die verdaging het mnr. de Vries

aangedui dat hy inderdaad geen beswaar as mnr. Soggot sy vrae

in Engels stel en hy in Afrikaans antwoord nie. Hy het die

voorbehou dat die vrae eenvoudig en kort is en as hy nie ver-

staan nie dat hy vra dat daar ~ verduideliking of soortgelyk

gegee word om die vraag duidelik te maak.

ISAK DANIEL DE VRIES: (steeds onder eed)

DEUR DIE HOF: Mnr. de Vries is dit korrek? --- Edelagbare,

soos die Staatsaanklaer dit gestel het gaan ek akkoord mee,

j a .

Advokaat dan is ons terug by die posisie wat voorheen ge

geld het, die getuie het nie beswaar daarteen dat die vrae in

Engels stel nie en dat hy dan in Afrikaans sy antwoorde gee.

Soos ek verstaan is daar net ~ versoek dat u sal probeer om die

vrae kort en bondig te stel~

10

MNR. SOGGOT: As dit Edelagbare behaag. 20 I '

CROSS - EXAMINATION: (cont.) Mr. de Vries can you go to page 2 of.

your report, the last approximate six lines; liThe ANC has de

cided to engage the enemy on all fronts, political struggles,

trade union activity including strikes, school boycotts,

struggle on the religious front, present revolts and military

action such as the Sasolburg explosions. 1I Now in the reality

situation do we know of any ANC control of let us take it,

trade union activity or strikes? --- Edelagbare, ek sal dit

probeer korter antwoord, nie wat ek van weet nie. Al wat ek

wil byv oeg i s dat di e ANC het we I die bedoe l ings soos h i er 3(

weerspieel en deur sy vennoot in die rewolusionere alliansies-

sakI ••.

Collection Number: AD2021

SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials 1958-1982

PUBLISHER: Publisher:- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012

LEGAL NOTICES:

Copyright Notice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner.

Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only.

People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of the collection records and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website.

This document is part of a private collection deposited with Historical Papers at The University of the Witwatersrand by the Church of the Province of South Africa.

Documents

ek dink vra my eers di e ek kyk. 30 · sekere di nge verband ho u met die proses van rewolusie. Ek-skuus, Edelagbare, dit - . Wel l t hat is a quest ion of argum ent wh ich really