Chicago Gangster Disciple Project Research Society Gang ... · I'm from Chicago, Illinois. I moved to St. Paul 7, no 9 KC: LM: KC: LM: ... How old were you when you first started

Ort I 05./~

TAPE 6 (j

Interview with LITTLE MAN

Chicago Gangster Disciple 18 year old Black American

Interviewed by Kate Cavett Hand in Hand

Interviewed in Spring 1996 at Boys Totem Town

KC: Introduce yourself. Your name, your age. 59.05 LM: My name Little Man. 18. I'm from Chicago, Illinois. I moved to St. Paul 7, no 9

KC: LM: KC: LM: KC:

months ago. When you were in Chicago, what kind of activities were you involved with? Normal things kids my age involved in--gang bangin'. What gang were you bangin' in with? The Gangster Disciples. What first attracted you to the Gangster Disciples?

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LM: Everything. I mean, grew up around. I was young and that's alii seen around my house so that's alii wanted to be.

KC: How old were you when you first started getting involved with the Gangsters? LM: What do you mean? When I first really started bangin'? KC: Mm-hmm. LM: 8. KC: You were? LM: Yea. KC: At 8 years old, what did you do? 59.30 LM:

KC: LM: KC: LM: KC:

I was standin' on the corner with some homies of mine. They was like 15 and 16. And they were of the opposite gang against some homies that I knew from the set that were GO. They came by and they started fightin' the homes that I was with and I started fightin' with 'em. And ever since then, they accepted me as a shorty banger. Did you have to go through any type of an initiation? What do you mean? Like beat on and stuff like that? Mm-hmm. Uh-uh. I didn't have to none of that. The homies that you were with, how old were they?

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LM: That I helped fight? KG: Yea.

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LM: They were like, some of them, the youngest one was like 13 and the rest of 'em was big folks. 15, 19, 18 on up.

KG: What's life like? What's the typical day in the life of a Gangster Disciple in Ghicago?

1.00.00 LM: Wake up. Get high. Just go chill out 'til sumpin' really pop off and if sumpin' don't

pop off, you go make sumpin' pop off. That's really it. You get high, make your money, and take anybody else's stuff who got money.

KG: How do you take it? LM: Any means necessary. If we gotta beat 'em down, shoot 'em. Anything. Any

means necessary. We gotta get they stuff. We gotta get it. KG: So every day you were involved in some type of violence? LM: Every day. Until I went to jail for two weeks. KG: Why'd you move to St. Paul? LM: To get away from the gang life. My mother forced me to move. KG: Do you want to get away from the gang life? 1.00.26 LM: At the time I didn't. But now, I'm kinda ... now, ain't no kinda. I am glad that I did

leave. Probably woulda ended up dead or in jail. Ain't no probably to it. I would have been dead or in jail right now.

KG: Tell me a story about a gun. Do you carry a gun? LM: What, now? KG: Yea. LM: Gun. I have plenty guns but the best I ever had was my 25. KG: What made it the best? LM: 'Guz it was small, compact and I could do anything with it if I wanted to. Take it

anywhere. Anything with it. I went to court, went to the police station with it beside me. To take my buddy to court and sat down and I had it. Take it anywhere with me. It was the best.

KG: What happened to it? LM: I had to throw it one day. KG: How come? LM: We was in a car with police and we was on a high speed chase and like, my boy,

he had three warrants on him. If he caught, he was takin', facin' 20 years. So, I don't fittin' him let catch 20 years over a gun. So I threw it.

KG: Did you ever use it? LM: Oh, yea. That's how I met my first girlfriend. My real first love was usin' it. KG: Tell me about that. 1.01.08 LM: We was ... a whole bunch of my homies. It was like eight of us. We was goin'

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through the forest. We had just came from shootin' at these dudes. And we was tryin' to get back on our side of town so we tried to take the forest and we ended up on the wrong side of town and everybody sittin' there, like paranoid 'cuz we oughta bullets and stuff. So we look ahead of us. We see all these, we see like a couple of girls in front of us. So we like fittin' to run up here with these girls. Ain't nobody gonna say nothin' to us if they see us with some girls. So we ran up there and started hollerin'. Before I knew it, she was over to my house every day.

KC: Then what happened? lM: Oh, she became like my wife, I guess. My mother accepted her. I accepted her.

Homies in the hood accepted her. She's pretty cool. KC: Are you still with her? lM: Uh-uh. She caught me playin' on her. KC: Oh. What was the relationship with girls and the GO's? Could they be GO's, too? 1.01.38 lM: No, they was GO's, too. Most girls I know, they was GO's to the fullest. They was

more down than some of the dudes I know. They was ready to handle they business. I got locked up one day for drivin' a Basia car. I was on my way home. They had just let me out. Then I turned around. I seen a paddy wagon pull over like 12 GO girls. And I'm in there takin' down all the names and stuff so I can go get money for 'em and stuff to get out like ... it was funny but man. Like, them girl's ruthless.

KC: In what way? lM: They down just like, down like the brothers out there. If you ... they expect you to

fight. You don't expect them to fight. I mean, if we be on the street slap boxin' with the dudes and stuff, the girls will come play us and they'll come slap box with us. Then it would be the boys against the girls. And then, if we get into a big gang fight, 9 times out of 10, I'd say that the girls may have started by talkin' some heat, but if they start it, they gonna finish.

KC: They're gonna fight as much as the guys? lM: Even more. KC: Oid the girls carry gats, too? 1.02.15 lM: It depends on who they are. Like, the shorty girls, the girls that was just there for

the gang bangin', they didn't carry gats but the girls that was there Like, that was rankin' and stuff, they had security with 'em. They carry gats and stuff like that.

KC: How did the girls get initiated in? lM: Really don't know. We ain't too much in ... we don't really mess with them when

they do they stuff. We do our stuff and they do theirs. KC: So the girls initiate the girls in and the guys initiate the guys in. lM: Yea. KC: You got in young enough because of family and because you were hanging. But

if somebody else wanted to come in, how did you initiate them in?

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1.02.38 LM: Depends on. Somebody wanna come in, the set that I was on, they was like

totally strict. I mean, we wouldn't let just anybody come be with the set. I mean, before you even get plugged, you be down with the set. You say you a G, but all of a sudden we call you folks and all, but legally, you know what I'm sayin', by our laws, you can't come to none of our meetings and stuff, you know. You ain't, you a G but you ain't Really. You ain't a G in the heart. And so they start, the do things on they owns to prove themself. I mean, people say that a lot of gang bangers make up the gang ... people who fittin' to join the gang to go do somethin'. The people that they tryin' to be down with don't make 'em do that. They do that stuff on they own so they can get recognization so they can be down.

KC: What are some of the kinds of things that they do so that they'll get recognized? 1.03.05 LM: Like my first year of high school, I mean, I was fittin' to get into a fight. Like it

ain't no need for me to fight. And one of the dudes that wanted to me down with our set, he was Like, Come on, folks. We fittin' to do this. We fittin' to do this. And kicked off a riot. I mean, the first day of high school, he kicked off a riot. And it was only like 3 of us and like 20 of them, and we sittin' there, lookin' at him and Like, Dang, now we gotta fight all these dudes with one 3 of us. I mean, that proved to us that he was down for anything but then again, that proved that he stupid.

KC: Sometimes you have to define some of your terms. What's kicked off a riot? LM: Like the L.A. riots. When somebody starts to fight and stuff like that. When they

start to boxin'. It's like an all out war. KC: How did that come out? 1.03.31 LM: Oh, we got away. That's the only thing I can say, I mean, 'cuz in our school, you

can't bring no guns in unless you come through certain doors. And them certain doors, they got police down there. They got cameras, metal detectors. I mean, so we barely got a gun in our school and if you did, you ain't fittin' to get it out. So wasn't no need of doin' nothin' Like that. We just, we had to always box heads up or whatever was there for us to pick up. Trays, garbage cans, anything.

KC: Did you hang with your set in school? LM: In school, yea. KC: Did you keep goin' to school or did you drop out? LM: My freshman year, I went to school for 101 days and they passed me. I don't

know why. The second year, I went to 47 days and got kicked out for kickin' off a riot. That's the last I seen the high school.

KC: So now you've got your GED? LM: Mm-hmm.


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KC: What was the biggest attraction? What were the values? What made you wanna do it?

1.04.13 LM: The adrenaline rush. That's the only thing really I can say because it wasn't no

main attraction. I mean, I seen there were money and things but money ... it didn't really matter to me 'cuz at that time, my mom's was sellin' dope so I was ... 1 mean, I had everything I wanted. Goin' to school in 6th grade with $50 in my pocket. I had everything but it was the adrenaline rush 'cuz I just liked the high, that adrenaline. Once that adrenaline kick into me, that's like gettin' high. I'm like Superman then. And livin' a normal life, you can't have that adrenaline rush. That's how I seen it.

KC: Do you miss it? LM: The adrenaline rush? KC: Yea. LM: I miss it every so often. When I go home on weekends and I talk to my homies in

Chicago, sometimes I miss it but then, there's other times when I don't miss it. KC: What were the feelings that you'd feel the most? LM: I never felt fear until I moved to St. Paul. But that adrenaline rush and hate. KC: Tell me about hate. 1.04.49 LM: The hate. It was deep, man. Hate is like everybody ... it was like if not me,

somebody. If they ain't G or neutron, I'd look at 'em. And I'd tell 'em, I was born your enemy. Just remember that. Especially if I wanted to really do somethin' to 'em but I didn't wanna ... you know what I'm sayin'? 'Cuz they started makin' laws on the set. Well, we can't kick of nothin'. We gotta let them kick it off first. So, I'd just look at 'em and tell 'em, I was born your natural enemy so they could say somethin' to me just so I could kick it off. That hate. I did things to people just for hate. Because I hated 'em. And I never knew 'em. Just because of who they were. I was raised to kill 'em. That's how I told everybody. I was raised to kill 'em.

KC: Did you kill some people? LM: I don't know. KC: What were some of the things that you did do? LM: I ran in this dude crib and his mom's was there. That's the only reason why I

think he's still alive. KC: Because his mother was there? LM: Mm-hmm. KC: What'd you do to him? 1.05.22 LM: Nothin'. I just beat him. Smacked him across the face with a gun. And then I took

him outside and took my mask off and told him, looked him in his eyes and told him, Told you I'd get you, punk. And he just sit there scared and I just hopped in


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the car with my boys. KC: What had he done? 1.05.31 LM: Be who he was. That's all it's for. Just be who he was. That's the only thing he

had done. He ain't never did nothin' wrong to me personally. But he just bein' who he was.

KC: Who'd you hate the most? LM: Gang? Solid Fours. KC: Solid Foes? LM: Solid Fours. Four Corner Hustlers. I hate them with a passion. I even hate them

at the point of my life now and I don't even gang bang. And I hate them now. I see one of them on the streets, I.. .. them the only people that I still mean with. I look at them Like, ya' know what I'm sayin', I hate them with a passion. It's just hatred. I can't explain it.

KC: How do you recognize them? 1.05.57 LM: You can tell the Solid Fours from them other different gangs because they Like,

they dress casually, you know what I'm sayin'? They Four Corner Hustlers. They all about makin' money, Really, you know what I'm sayin'? You can tell them. If they got a little thing, they'll just say what they be. It don't say written on 'em but it's inside they eyes and they face.

KC: Do you still dress? LM: No. I don't dress gang. I wear anything what I want for. I'd always wear anything.

Wasn't no certain color that adapted me. If I wore a red and black suit, I would have a blue rag hangin' out my pocket or a blue rag in my hand or somethin' but I ain't never really stopped wearin' certain colors.

KC: Did you have to learn literature to be in a gang? 1.06.20 LM: Yea. They say that you done had to but, you know what I'm sayin'? You got,

people look at you. They look at you Like, if you don't know no lit, you ain't nothin'. I mean, people in here in Totem Town now, you know what I'm sayin'? My boy, I heard him tell this one dude. They was askin' me was he G. I Like, I don't know, man. He could be. He was Like, he don't know no L, dude. I was Like, No. He ain't G, then, if he don't know. That's my style. If you don't know no lit, you ain't nothin' to me in my eyes. You just somebody that wanna be. You a wannabe.

KC: Some of the things that I've heard about the literature have a lot of really strong values. That's one of the things that's interested me about dOing this project is that they are teaching such strong values. Is there any of the literature you can share?

1.06.49 LM: Ain't none that I can share but they all teach strong values. The one thing that


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everybody in this world know what GD stress is education. Everybody know that. I mean, no matter what gang you is, you know that GD stress education. If you ain't in school, you get your head swoll. You get a punkin' head like 50 shots to the head or somethin'. I mean, I done got a couple of my own shot. I done got like 20, 30 more shots for not goin' to school. If you out on the streets slingin' dope during school hours, you really get your head swoll so if you ain't in school, stay in the house until school is out.

KC: So you got violations for not being in school? LM: Mm-hmm. KC: What are the violations that you get? 1.07.12 LM: Could range from anything from a petty mouth shot. That's when they hit you in

your mouth to 30 second beat down with no cover. No cover up is when you just stand up and have somebody put you in a full Nelson and you get hit for a certain amount of seconds. The most you can get hit is like two minutes. The least is like 15-20 seconds. And then cover up is when you can just fall down to the ground and just cuddle up like a little baby and take your hit. But they can't never put they feet on you, know matter what. So you just get hit with hands. But that's still is pain. Still brings pain.

KC: Did you have rank? LM: Yea. I was second coordinator. KC: Is that like assistant to the coordinator? LM: Yes. KC: What are the ranks above that? 1.07.39 LM: You got a coordinator. You got a regent, assistant regent. Then you got the gov.

Assistant. Gov. You got the BM's, the board members and then you got Mr. Hoover.

KC: Did you ever meet Mr. Hoover? LM: Uh-uh. KC: Do you know somebody that Mr. Hoover used to hang out with or where he was

running? LM: Met his son. KC: Mr. Hoover's son? LM: Yea. KC: So you had high rank. LM: That was just over in the little suburbs I was in. The only people that was over

me was the regent, the assistant regent and the first coordinator. KC: What kind of things did you coordinate 1.08.08 LM: Anything. Basically, to me, 1 didn't really feel 1 was ... 1 was just sittin' back, kickin'

it 'cuz, you know what I'm sayin'? The only time 1 would bring somethin' to action

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is like when we'd come up on a decision for a violation for somebody. That's when they aks me what do I think. Or when the coordinator was out of town or somethin', there was a business meetin' in Chicago or somethin', that's when I'd take over on the set. But to me, I'd rather, I would have really cared to be the chief of security. That's what I wanted to be.

KC: Did you ever do that? 1.08.25 LM: No. When I was a shorty, I was that for the shortys. That was like when I was 15. KC: How do you move from being in the shorty group and in the full group. LM: You turn 16. The shorty group is from whatever age you be in 'til 16. Big folks is

from 17 to ... that's the age group. KC: What's the oldest? LM: The oldest gangster? I don't even know. We got one folk rollin' around out there

in a wheelchair. I think he pushin' at least 40, 45. KC: Does he still bang? LM: To the fullest. KC: Did you ever see anybody killed? LM: Seen a couple people killed. KC: Can you tell me about it? 1.08.53 LM: I seen this one dude killed while we was playin' dice. We was all shootin' dice

and he got shot in the head. Then one dude got shot in the back and his girl got her knee cap blown off.

KC: How'd that happen? LM: This dude whose sister got shot, she got killed by one of the folks that lived on

the Westside. And the folks that lived in the Westside, they came over on the Eastside kick it with us and the dude, he was mad. He was pissed off, matter of fact. He came over there and drove past and started shootin'.

KC: You were just lucky that you weren't hit? 1.09.13 LM: Not Really. If I was hit or not, I mean, I knew in the end, we was gonna die at

that time. It really didn't make me none. I was just sittin' there in a state of shock and gettin' yelled at by the other folks because I had a gun and I wasn't shootin'. And I waited until the last minute to shoot. I was Like, I was still in a state of shock. That dude came past and did that.

KC: He just drove past. LM: Mm-hmm. KC: What else did you see? LM: I didn't see it but I was outside. My cousin was in the house and he shot himself. KC: Did you know he was gonna do it? LM: No. KC: Was it an accident?


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LM: I don't even know. I don't even aks questions no more. He the only one know and I won't know til I see him.

KC: How'd that feel? 1.09.37 LM: That hurted me bad. The hurted me real bad. It was hurtin' me so bad that after it

happened, I was sittin' in front of the house and a whole bunch of Solid Fours drove past and the car stopped and looked, wondered what was goin' on and I just started shootin' while the police was there.

KC: A whole bunch of who? LM: Solid Fours. KC: What did the police do? LM: They was runnin' around tryin' to see who was shootin'. I was comin' out of a

crowd, just leavin' from my girlfriend porch tellin' her what happened. I was comin' out. I just started shootin'. They was wonderin' who did it. By the time they found out where the shots did come from, I was long gone. The gun was in my girlfriend house, so ... it really didn't...1 really didn't care if I got caught or not.

KC: Why? 1.10.06 LM: 'Cuz man, he died. And I was really prayin' that they would shoot back. That the

police would shoot so I could go to war with them 'cuz, you know what I'm sayin'? At that time, it felt like it was my time to go too, then.

KC: Were you close to your cousin? LM: Very close. KC: Had he been in with the G's all along with you? LM: All his life. 'Cuz I ain't really too close to the people, my family on my mother's

side. And he on my father's side and I barely knew any people on my father's side. So, when me and him hooked up, you know what I'm sayin'? It was like a natural bond. It had been that way ever since and it still is.

KC: How long has he been dead? LM: August will make it a year. KC: Did that have anything to do with you deciding to come to Minnesota? LM: No. That made me wanna stay in Chicago. It made me wanna stay. KC: Do you think someone was involved in him deciding to take his life? Did he take

his own life? 1.10.39 LM: I really don't know. Only person that was in the house was his girlfriend. At first, I

thought she had somethin' to do with it. When my angercalmed down, I realized who she was. That was one of my best homie's sisters so I knew she wouldn't have nothin' to do with it.

KC: How do you do that? LM: I don't even know. KC: That sounds hard.


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1.10.53 LM: It was. Still is. I mean, we don't speak of his name 'cuz, you know what I'm

sayin'? There's so much anger, you know what I'm sayin'? I seen one folks was talkin' about him, you know what I'm sayin'? It was in a good way but we wasn't havin' it. Folks got somebody. He just stole on folks. I don't even remember who is was that stole on him. Somebody just stole on him 'cuz, I mean, the anger's still inside. And I couldn't go back to that apartment building where he shot himself at for a long time.

KC: It's really hard when you lose people we love. Did you lose a lot of homies going to prison?

LM: Mm. I didn't see too many of my homies go to prison. None that I was real close with. I seen homies that I knew, that I banged together for a little bit. But other than that, ain't none of my homies went to prison when I was out there. But three of my bestest homies and, you know what I'm sayin'? I only got five homies and we was like a clique. The five, six of us and now, three of them gone, in jail. Two of 'em still down. Now, it's just us three left livin'. They in jail for murder. They shot an old man so I know they gonna be in there for life. If not that, at least 20 years a piece.

KC: What were the circumstances of them shooting an old man? 1.11.38 LM: I really don't know. Only thing I heard is my friend's girlfriend was locked about a

store about some Latin Kings and they wouldn't let her out so she called my boy and they rolled over there in the car and they seen one of the Latin Kings and they was shootin' at him and they accidentally hit the old man.

KC: What do you think about that? LM: I really don't know. I really don't. That would have been one of the incidents

where I would have been with them. That's why I said I would have been in jail. KC: How do you get out of the gang? LM: You can't. You can't. Ain't no gettin' out. You can say you stopped gang bangin'

and that's cool and a" but truthfully, inside everybody heart, they'd say they was a G. They know ain't no gettin' out. You still gotta show love to your homies like me. My homies know I don't gang bang but no matter what, I still gotta show love to 'em. If I ever, and I was told if I ever see one of them into it with somebody, you know what I'm sayin'? I gotta go aid and assist them.

KC: Did you ever see one of them in trouble? 1.12.14 LM: Yea. I gotta go help 'em. I was like that's a" fine with me 'cuz I told myself, you

know, I ain't gonna be around no situation where I'd have to see one of my homies into it.

KC: So you see somebody with a tattoo or flying a flag or something even though you don't know them and they're in trouble, you'd be obligated to step in.

LM: If he GO, I would.


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KC: And GO, you knew he was a GO. LM: Then I would have to help him. KC: What happened that your mom decided to move to St. Paul? 1.12.36

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LM: Well, my mama said she's movin' up here anyway to get me out of the gang but I conned her into lettin' me stay out there. Told her I was gonna get a job and stuff so she came up here like three months before I did. Then when I came up here, then she heard that some dude put a gun to my head and that was stupid 'cuz he let me live. Then my mama came down here that same night and took me up here.

KC: Tell me about those circumstances. 1.12.52 LM: It was really funny to me. I mean, the dude was, we was goin' to buy weed, for

one. From this dude name Tywan and he ain't nothin'. I mean, he just a dude that sell weed. We was goin' to buy weed. And two of these marks, one of them came up to holler us sayin' Solid Fo', Solid Fo'. I'm Like, Nigger, I ain't no Solid Fo'., punk. You know that. Like I know that. Then he pulled a gun out. And I looked at him Like, I could shoot you right now. I could shoot you right now. Like, man, if you had balls you wouldn't be talkin' about you could shoot me right now. You would just shoot me. Then my boy stood up and pulled out his gun. Then that's when I was Like, Here come the po' folks, folks. Then the Po' Folks weren't comin' but I was just Iyin' so we can get a chance to get away before, you know what I'm sayin'? If we was gonna shoot, at least he wouldn't hit me in my head. If my boy was gonna shoot, at least the bullet that was gonna hit him, then the dude wouldn't have a last reflex and shoot me. So we broke. Then we ran past. .. we ran a block. Got in the alley, started walkin'. These marks come bustin' at us like four or five deep. Each one of 'em had a gun. They shootin' at us. Then we, my home boy started shootin' back and we ran. Got caught by the feds.

KC: Got caught by the feds? LM: Yea, the feds. KC: The feds or the fence? LM: Feds. FBI. KC: FBI? LM: Yea, they caught us. We spent three nights in jail. KC: How come? LM: I really don't know. They was tryin' to find out did anybody got hit. So we spent

three nights in jail. They was tryin' to find out did we shoot anybody so they could charge us.

KC: Nobody got hurt? 1.13.45 LM: My boy said I almost got shot in the foot. He said a bullet hit right in front of me

and I looked at my shoe and Like, Damn, it did. So, it was funny. Throughout this


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whole incident for three days, I still had the bag of weed in my drawers. That was the funniest part about it. I mean, I'm steady goin' up the stairs, up and down the stairs, gettin' interrogated and stuff. And still had the bag of weed.

KC: They released you with the bag of weed? LM: Yea. I had cigar blundts inside my personal bag. They released me with those,

too. I went home. Went straight to my boy, house. Like, I still got that weed, nigger. He thought it was funny. Like, Stop Iyin'. I Like, showed it to him and we kicked it.

KC: Then your mom came and picked you up? LM: That same night. KC: So you hadn't gotten a job. LM: Nope. I wasn't plannin' to get a job. That was all a lie. I wasn't plannin' to get a

job. KC: There's a lot of G groups here. Did you try to hook up at all? 1.14.19 LM: I met 'em on accident. Every gangster I know in St. Paul, I met 'em on accident.

Like one of this dude I know, I met him ... how did I meet him? Oh, yea. I had just jacked his bass here for $100 and I was, No, Like skip it. I was runnin'. Like, I gotta get some weed and somethin' to drink. Like, I seen this one dude and I seen his hat. His hat was turned to the left. And I was Like, this mark might end up bein' a Solid. I was Like, Dude, you know where I can get weed. He was Like, Yea, I go with ya. He was runnin'. I was Like, Man, you gotta run, dude. I ain't got all day and we started runnin'. So he took me inside the crib and throughout this whole time, he had his hat to the left and we went inside the crib. He came inside the crib with his hat broke off to the left. He like What's up, folks? Everybody tell in' him Like, What's up, folks? Man, this fool ain't folks, dude. What is your problem? You see how his hat's at? Like, man this folks, he undercover folks. Like, yea, right. Then he showed me the gun. He undercover folks.

KC: So he's not looking like folks but he is folks? LM: Yea. KC: How come you hooked up with somebody that wasn't folks to try to get weed? 1.14.57 LM: I wanted some weed. I ain't had no weed since I've been to St. Paul and I was in

St. Paul for like three days with nothin' but cigarettes. And I was Like, I don't know none of these marks. None of these marks know me so I ain't gotta tell this fool what I be. So I end up just bein' folks.

KC: What happened when you found these guys to buy weed from and you found out they were folks?

LM: Oh, I bought like 20 sacks. I smoked one with them and then they told me to come back later on about an hour and they was gonna smoke a half with me. I Like, cool, and I went. Me and the other dude, that's undercover folks, we went


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walkin. He took me somewhere. He took me over to these girls house and we started smokin'. Then, that's it. That's how I met everybody. I met most of my homies through undercover and they was undercover folks.

KC: Have you been hangin' with some G's here? LM: Not too much. No. I hanged with a couple of 'em but not since I've been locked

up. Whenever I go on weekends, the only G I hang with is my boy, Sally. And me and him, we just, we ain't even hangin' together 'cuz we both G's. We just hangin' together 'cuz of our likes and stuff.

KC: What's the difference between Chicago and here and the G's? 1.15.41 LM: Everything. Everything. 'Cuz Chicago, man. I ain't never seen nobody scared to

do nothin' up there. Only time you seen somebody shed a tear is when somebody die or somethin', you know what I'm sayin'? Somethin' personal happened, you know what I'm sayin'? I mean, it's just hard to explain but if you live in Chicago all your life and you come up here and you go around people up here, what you see here is what you see on TV. Fools in Chicago .... what you see here is what you see on TV about dudes in Chicago doin' this and what you see in Chicago, you know what I'm sayin'? You see on TV as the camera is recordin' it. And here, they tryin' to be like what they see on TV. I mean, we live that way 'cuz we have to. They livin' this way because they wanna be different. I don't understand that.

KC: So in other words, it's like it's a lot of playacting or a lot of banging or creating activity just for the sake of tryin' to look big. But in Chicago, it's life and death?

1.16.20 LM: Definitely, that's how it is. In Chicago, you do it to survive. I mean, I only met one

person that was a Neutron Blood my whole life in Chicago. And this dude, he used to be a G. Only reason why he was a Neutron at that time was because he stopped gang bangin'. He got on his feet at the pOint where he didn't have to be a G to get assistance from us, you know what I'm sayin'? 'Cuz he hooked us up with things. He was supplyin' guns and stuff, you know what I'm sayin'? So he didn't have to bang. But in St. Paul, it's just all stereotype, you know what I mean? A couple, my boy, Sally, he cool and all but man, it's all stereotype to me. They listen to too much songs. They wanna be like the radio.

KC: What's a Neutron? 1.16.43 LM: A person who don't gang bang. Who just, just down. He just a homie. I mean,

you got some Neutrons that go to church and do all this laddie daddie stuff and then you got Neutrons that's down. They, you may think they gang bangers but, you know what I'm sayin'? They feel no need to be a gang banger 'cuz why must you commit yourself to havin' 2,000 of these types of friends when you can commit yourself to be 2,000 of these friends, 2,000 of these friends, 2,000 of these friends. I mean, instead of just one clique, you down with everybody and


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everybody like you, you know what I'm sayin'? KC: Is that being a Neutron? LM: Yea. KC: The rivals are different here in St. Paul, too, I've heard. 1.17.11 LM: Oh, yea. I ain't never have to walk oughta my house worrying about no Crips and

no Bloods, no BFLs, no Venom Mob, none of this stuff. RCBs. None. ORBs. None of this stuff. Only thing I have to walk oughta my house worryin' about is either steppin' on a hill is where all them Latin Kings be at or comin' out my front door and happen to see some Solid Fours ride pass or some Vice Lords. I ain't never have to worry about no other gangs but those three-Solid Fours, Vice Lords, and Latin Kings. And the Vice Lords, they were cool because, you know what I'm sayin'? They were out with us to get Four Comer Hustlers because the Vice Lords made the Four Comer Hustlers and the Four Comer Hustlers tried to branch off and claim they own. So, you know what I'm sayin'? All this stuff up here is wacky stuff to me.

KC: Tell me what's wacky about it. LM: They fake, man. Everybody here is funny to me. It's like I'm watching, it's like I'm

livin' a big rap video every day. Everybody, the way they walk, the way they talk, the way they act. I mean, it's everything.

KC: Is it like they're pretending but they don't have to pretend? They're not finding themselves? They're just playacting.

1.17.52 LM: Yea, that's what they is. They're pretending. There ain't no need to pretend. I

mean, a couple of these dudes up here. They down for it. They down for whatever but the ones that I see that's down for whatever, they the ones that ain't gang bangin'. They the ones from Chicago and New York, you know what I'm sayin'? Those dudes from Cali, I don't even see nothin' to those Bloods and the Crips, I mean, 'cuz to me, they just another made up gang that happened to get lucky and get big. You know what I'm sayin'? I pay attention to the real gangs, the Vice Lords, the G's, the Blackstones. I mean, the original gangs that was here. I mean, the GD's. The Blackstones was the first gang. The GD's is the largest. Blackstones. Then you got the Vice Lords. Other than that, I don't put Crips and Bloods as bein' the largest gangs on the list because to me, they only committed to five states in the United States when the top three gangs are committed to all 48, to 48 states. I mean, so they ain't in Alaska and Hawaii. I mean, other than that, everywhere you go, you gonna see a G. You know, Blackstone or Vice Lord. So ...

KC: Were you involved in recruiting people into the gang? 1.18.30 LM: Not really much. It depends on who they was. If it was somebody I really liked,

I'd throw in good words for 'em, you know what I'm sayin'? But other than that, it

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really didn't make me none 'cuz I knew how the people who were doing the recruiting drive worked, you know what I'm sayin'? I seen what little homies had to go through, you know what I'm sayin'? I seen little homies go out and try to prove themself. When we goin' to fight somebody, you know what I'm sayin'? Instead of walkin' in the back of the line or in the middle of the line, they try to be in the front with the older homies that know ... the older homies that can squab but they wanna be in the back, you know what I'm sayin'? They wanna be in the front 'cuz ... and knowin' they can't squab worth nothin', knowin' they gonna be the first to drop and knowin' that we gotta run over there and worry about them ...

KC: I asked you about initiation and you said that people have to prove themselves. If they prove themselves, is there an initiation? Do people have to get beat in?

1.19.02 LM: No. That was in the old days like in the '80's and stuff. Nowadays, it ain't no

beatin' in. It's just that group of people, they fit. Other sets do their stuff differently but there ain't no more beatin' in. Like mine, they feel that they won't let you in til you worthy enough. Other sets, they'll let you in no matter what. Because you wanna be a G, they respect you for that. But we respect you 'cuz you wanna be a G but man, we also gonna respect you 'cuz of the set you comin' up on, you know what I'm sayin'? Been around for a long time. And the set that I was on, we was only like 300 deep. Lord knows, we could have been 1,000 deep if we wanted to but it was just that, I mean, we didn't turn 'em off or nothin' from bein' G's. We sent them down to the set 3 blocks away. To the Wentworth set. Let them be down there, you know what I'm sayin'? They let anybody in. We just, we particular about who we let in.

KC: Where were you? LM: We was in Wallace. Wallace Street boys. KC: You said you can't get out in a way, does a geographic move mean that you

don't have to be bangin'? 1.19.41 LM: It don't mean that 'cuz, I mean, in your heart, you still know you a G. So I mean,

just because you move, that don't mean nothin'. You gonna see somebody that's a G and you gonna. It ain't, it's a natural reaction for you, say, What's up, folks? You may catch yourself after you've said it but it's a natural reaction to do it, no matter what.

KC: I've seen some people in here that say they're G's and they're not. LM: Yea. Yea. One of the new kids that came out. Man, this fool, when he first came. KC: The one that's in the red suit? 1.19.57 LM: No. This other one. When he first came, I specifically took him, sat him down,

Like, What you be, homie? He was Like, Nothin'. Like man, I was just wanna know because man, I mean, you ain't gonna make it in here. I mean, you gonna make it in here but, you know what I'm sayin'? But you gonna need some of your


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own kind to talk to if you a G, man, you gonna need some of your own kind to talk to. Dude I ain't never met Like, All right. Cool. Then like when this kid comes here that's in the red suit now that knows the kid. He gonna start talkin' about he a G. I look at this fool Like, Man, you ain't G. You ain't nothin', dude. Stop Iyin'. Don't ever let me hear you holler G. That's how I am.

KC: Do the G's need to stick together in here? 1.20.23 LM: Depends. Not really because all the dudes upstairs that say they G, there's only

like 3 or 4 in all. We stick around them. I'm just basically me. I'm by myself, man. Since my boy gone, Sally. Me and him, you know what I'm sayin'? Me and him was always together no matter what. We always did everything together. Since he gone, I don't say nothin' to nobody. I stick to myself mindin' my own. That's how you gotta be, man. If you ain't got nobody that you can talk to about stuff, your problems that are goin' on, stick to yourself and talk to your primary about it or somethin'. Don't go out there and talk to the wrong people. They probably catch you on the out sleepin'. I don't know. It really wouldn't make me none 'cuz knowin' these fools in here, watchin' videos, they'll try to kill you over stupid stuff. I don't know so me, I just keep to myself and my own kind. But lately, I been over on the Westside part time kickin' with some BFLs.

KC: What's BFL? LM: Brown For Life. They call themself Westside Homeboys. It's a Mexican gang. I

been kickin' with some of them and frankly, some of them dudes ... now, them dudes right there, all of them are real because most of them I been kickin' with come from Texas and Mexico so they real to me. They been through it all.

KC: What kind of stuff they been through? 1.21.13 LM: They been through everything. I mean, unlike me, you know what I'm sayin'? I

had to do what I did to live. They had to do what they had to do to put on they family's table. Also to live. To make it. To sneak across the border line. Stuff like that. I mean, they had to do what they had to do. And Like, they get much problems just for survivin' this long, you know what I'm sayin'? Sneakin' across.

KC: GO's traditionally are a corporate gang. They're organized to make money. LM: Yea. We're not organized to make money but I mean, we like corporate gangs.

We call ourself an organization 'cuz that's what we are. KC: Is there a big drug business? LM: Hellified drug business. Yea, they had a good one. KC: Do you miss that? 1.23.44 LM: No, not Really. No, 'cuz I ain't never sold drugs. Honestly, no need to. I always,

instead of sellin' they dope, I'll take they money and go buy me some weed instead of takin' they stuff sellin' it to 'em.

KC: In other words, you would get your money for the drugs by stealing those that


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are selling drugs? LM: Right. Takin' theirs, you know what I'm sayin'? I didn't really have to take theirs.

But to me, I was lazy. I was too tired to go home and aks for money so, instead of goin' home and askin' 'em, I snatched somebody's loot.

KC: Was your set all black? LM: We were all black with two Mexicans. KC: A lot of the G's here seem to be real interracial. 1.22.10 LM: Yea, they are. A lot of interracial. That really shocked me when I seen it. I mean,

my mama calls me and tells me, There's some white dudes ride past and they shoot up some Vice Lords that I know that stay upstairs from me. I was Like, Mama, what was the white dudes hollerin'? She Like, They was hollerin' GD's. My mom said that she started laughin'. But then again, she said it wasn't funny 'cuz they was shootin' theirself. I mean ... that was funny.

KC: There's a kid that I've interviewed who's a white kid who talks a lot about growth and development and that the organization that he was in is very much an interracial organization.

LM: Probably is. I ain't gonna doubt nothin' in St. Paul. Anything's possible. KC: He's notfrom St. Paul. LM: Where he from? KC: Northern Minnesota. 1.22.42 LM: Man, only ... Chicago is the only place where I know you got really all black G's.

You probably have a couple ... well, they ain't really all black but, you know what I'm sayin'? You got Mexicans. And the Mexicans are black. The only time you see a white dude on the set bein' a G is if this fool is real crazy. This fool gotta be real crazy and his name gotta be crazy. His name is crazy.

KC: Why did you consider the Mexicans black? LM: I don't even know. It's just been that way all my life. I mean, I ain't never ... me

and Mexican people, you know what I'm sayin', have never had problems, besides the Mexican Latin Kings. Other than that, Mexican dude's black to me. I don't know. I just see all Mexicans black.

KC: What experience should I ask you about that I haven't? 1.23.13 LM: You aksed me about 'em all. Went through everything. Went through my love

life. My bang in' , everything, drug dealin' that I don't have. We went through basically it.

KC: Do you think you'll go back to bangin'? LM: No, never that. Never that. KC: What do you need not to do banging? LM: I need a job. I need to stick with my girl. Stick with her. The one that I got. Not no

other one, but just the one I got. Get a job and further my education. Then I'll be


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better off. KG: Is she a G? LM: No. KG: Is she in any gang? LM: No. Fact is, she's white. That shocked me. KG: How come you let yourself fall for a white girl? 1.23.42 LM: 'Guz first it was from the loneliness bein' locked up in here. She was like there to

support me, you know, through it all. And then, when I finally started gettin' whole weekends, she was like there for me even more. I really don't know. I'm just. .. it was funny to me but then again, I know I'm serious about her. I just wanna know what my homie gonna say when he come up here and see her.

KG: I'm laughing with you. LM: 'Guz it's funny to me 'cuz I wanna know what he gonna say. I mean, 'cuz I told

him Like, Man, I got this girl I Like. And I put a parentheses Like, she's white, though. Like, I got a couple other girls, too. I'm thinkin', should I just show him my girl that I plan to be with the rest of my life or just show him them all just to let him know somethin'. I don't know. It's gonna be somethin' for me to think about.

KG: How's she gonna handle you bein' with other girls? 1.24.10 LM: She don't know that. She don't know that and that's what we strugglin' with now

is me, you know what I'm sayin'? I done had like six girlfriends when I started goin' with her. And I was like only down to two to three. Two or three that I'm with, it's like I'm not ready to stop seein' them yet but then again, I am 'cuz I don't wanna lose the girl I'm with now.

KG: Sounds like you've been through that before. Losing a girl because you've been with others.

LM: Yea. And I ain't fittin' to do that again. I mean, I hate, you know what I'm sayin'? I only fell in love once and the girl, I lost her by bein' a player and the girl that I'm with now, I feel myself falling in love with her so I ain't fittin' to do that. I ain't fittin' to fall in love and get hurt again. Not again. Uh-uh.

KG: If you don't let yourself fall in love, you not only don't get hurt but you don't get the joy either.

LM: Right. But if I fall in love and still be a player, I'd really get hurt. KG: Sounds like you've got some choices to make. LM: Right. KG: Where are you gonna get a job? 1.24.45 LM: I haven't decided on any yet. Nine out of ten, I'm gonna start working at

Rainbows until I get out of college. Go to treatment for 15 days to however how long it takes.

KG: Where?

COPYRIGHT: HAND in HAND, Post Office Box 65522, Saint Paul, MN 55165 =--= 612-227-5987

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LM: Lakewood. Then I'll transfer to Metropolitan State. Since that's closer by my house.

KC: In what? LM: Psychology. Probably a little pre-law. KC: Why? LM: Pre-law is just enough for me to mess around with, keep my head up. KC: A way to get respect? Get some power? 1.25.05 LM: Naw. It's just somethin' for me to just...pre-Iaw is just somethin' that I always

liked messin' .... law is just somethin' that I liked messin' around with. KC: You need a job. You need your girl. Are there other forms of support that you

need to be able to make it? LM: I basically got 'em all. I've got the support of my family, got support of my little

sister. Other than that, I got everything I need, you know what I'm sayin'? I got support from people, you know what I'm sayin', that's helped me out. Other than my girlfriend and my job and my education, that's the only support I need.

KC: Anything else I should ask you? LM: I don't know.


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Documents

Chicago Gangster Disciple Project Research Society Gang ... · I'm from Chicago, Illinois. I moved to St. Paul 7, no 9 KC: LM: KC: LM: ... How old were you when you first started