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Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

Transcript of: Grand Jury Volume XIII

Date: October 16, 2014

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Electronically signed by

State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson

STATE OF MISSOURI

vs.

DARREN WILSON

GRAND JURY

October 16, 2014

VOLUME XIII

Grand Jury Volume XIII October 16, 2014

Page 1

Gore Perry Reporting and Video FAX 314-241-6750 314-241-6750 www.goreperry.com

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State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XIII October 16, 2014

1

2

3

IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF ST. LOUIS COUNTY

4 STATE OF MISSOURI

5

6

7 vs.

8

9 DARREN WILSON

10

11

STATE OF MISSOURI

Page 2

12 The following is a hearing before the Grand

13 Jury of St. Louis County, at the offices of St.

14 Louis County Prosecuting Attorney's Office, 100

15 South Central Avenue, in the City of Clayton, State

16 of Missouri, on the 16th day of October, 2014,

17 before

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24

25


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1 APPEARANCES OF COUNSEL:

2

3 FOR THE STATE:


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4 Ms. Kathi Alizadeh & Ms. Sheila Whirley

5 Assistant Prosecuting Attorneys for St. Louis

6 County

7 100 South Central Avenue, 2nd Floor

8 Clayton, MO 63105

9 (314) 615-2600

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2

GRAND JURY HEARING VOLUME XIII

MS. ALIZADEH: Good morning.

3 (All say good morning.)

4 WITNESS 34,

5 of lawful age, having been first duly sworn to

6 testify the truth, the whole truth, and

7 nothing but the truth in the case aforesaid,

8 deposes and says in reply to oral

9 interrogatories, propounded as follows, to-wit:

10 EXAMINATION

11 MS. ALIZADEH: Now, this is Kathi

Page 5

12 Alizadeh. It is October 16th, 2014, it is 9:14.

13 This is the first of the day. We had a little late

14 start today. I'm present, with Sheila Whirley from

15 the prosecutor's office, all 12 grand jurors are

16 present, as is the court reporter and we're getting

17 ready to hear from the first witness of the day who

18 has been sworn.

19 BY MS. ALIZADEH:

20 Q You and I met with your attorney and

21 Sheila prior to you coming in here today; is that

22 right?

23

24

A

Q

That's right.

And remember that I told you that the

25 court reporter is taking things down and there will


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1 be a recording, but before we start the recording

2 I'm going to have you introduce yourself. Do you

3 remember me telling you that?

A Yeah, uh-huh. 4

5 Q And then I told you that after we start

6 the recording, we are going to refer to you by a

7 number instead of your name, okay?

A Right. 8

9

10

11

Q And your number is going to be 34, okay?

A Okay.

Q So could you please state your name for

12 the grand jurors?

13 Witness 34. A

14 And how old are you, sir? Q

15

16

17

18

19

20

21 area?

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

And whereabouts do you live?

(Redacted)

Okay. (Redacted)

(Redacted)

How long have you lived in the St. Louis

22 I have been in St. Louis since A

23 Do you live in the Canfield Green Q

24 Apartment Complex?

25 A No, I have a


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Q Okay.

A

1

2

3 Q And what do you do, what kind of work to

4 do you do for a living?

5

6

A

Q

Sort of like

Okay. All right.

work.

7 Now having been identified, I will

8 have the court reporter start the recording and then

9 we will have you, we will refer to you by your

10 number, okay?

11 A All right.

12 Q (By Ms. Alizadeh) Sir, prior to the

13 recording being started, you identified yourself and

14 for the recording purposes we're going to refer to

15 you as Witness Number 34; is that right?

16

17

A

Q

That's all right.

And, sir, just back up a little bit and

18 restate what you already said, how old a man are

19 you?

20 A

21

22

23

Q

A

Q

And you live ?

Right.

All right. Are you familiar with the

24 Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

25 A Part of it, yes.


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2

3

Q

A

Q

Page 8

You've been there before?

Yes.

I'm going to show you Grand Jury Number

4 25, which is a map, an aerial view of some streets

5 and buildings. This being Canfield Drive, do you

6 recognize that as being streets and buildings that

7 will be Canfield Green Apartment Complex?

8

9

A

Q

Yes, uh-huh.

Okay. And, sir, do you remember

10 August 9th of this year, which was a Saturday?

A Yes, uh-huh. 11

12 Q And earlier that morning, did anything

13 special happen?

A Yes. 14

15 Q Prior to what you ended up seeing that you

16 are here for today, prior to the shooting, did

17 anything unusual or special happen in the morning?

18

19

20

21

A

Q

A

work and

Before the shooting?

Right.

Uh, well, nothing. I was on my way to

I had

22 to come back and get it.

23

24

25

Q

A

Okay. So you

?

Uh-huh, yeah.


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2

3

Q

A

Q

Page 9

And so you said you were leaving for work?

Right.

Do you remember about what time of day it

4 was that you were leaving for work?

A I don't know exactly what time, but it was 5

6 in the morning.

7

8

9

10

11

Q

A

Q

A

Q

And do

As far

Was it

Yes, it

Okay.

you recall this being a Saturday?

as I can remember, yes.

light outside?

was light.

And how was it that you were

12 leaving for work?

13 A

14

15 I turned around to

16 come back the Canfield

17 Apartments.

18 Q So you were all the way to

19 and then you had to return around and come back to

20 the Canfield Apartments?

21

22

A

Q

Uh-huh.

When you were coming back to the

23 apartments, when you got to the apartment complex,

24 were you coming from West Florissant or were you

25 coming the back way?


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A

Q

Page 10

No, I was coming from West Florissant.

Okay. If this is West Florissant over

3 here, and I'm motioning to the left of the map.

A Right. 4

5

6

Q You can't see West Florissant on this map.

A Right, okay.

7 Q You came in from this direction?

A 8

9 Q

Right, right.

What kind do you have, at least

10 back then, what were you driving?

11

12

13

14

15

A

Q

A

Q

A

Okay. And is this a

Right, it is a

Does it have anything on

?

16 A It has a

?

17 Q And what about, is it a four-door or

18 two-door, ?

19 A It is

20 Q And about what year is it?

21

22

A

Q And so when you were coming back to the

23 Canfield Green Apartments, were you driving that

24 ?

25 A Yeah.


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1 Q And you were driving this direction on

2 Canfield Drive? (indicating)

3 A Right.

4 Q Okay. Now, right here in front of you is

5 a laser pointer.

6 A Uh-huh.

7 Q And there's a little gray button right

8 there. So if you press it, you can use that to show

9 on the map.

10 So as you were, let me ask you this,

11 were you with somebody in your ?

12

13

A

Q

14 yours?

15 A

16 a lot.

17

18

Q

A

Yes, one of the guys that work with me.

Is this guy somebody that is a friend of

Well, I call him a friend. I help him out

Do you know his name?

, he goes by. I never question him

19 too much, he never likes me getting into his

20 business too much.

21

22

23

24

25

Q

A

Q

A

Q

You call him ?

Right.

And he's

And you've worked with him though?


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A

Q

A

Q

Page 12

Yeah, I've worked with him several times.

So was he going to work with you that day?

Yes, uh-huh, right.

Do you know is he African-American or is

5 he Caucasian?

6

7

8 him?

9

10

A

Q

A

Q

African-American.

Okay. So is just a name you call

Right, uh-huh.

So as you entered, were coming into the

11 Canfield Green Apartment Complex, did you see

12 anything unusual?

13 A Yes, when we got turned into Canfield,

14 coming up Canfield, all of the sudden, I call it a

15 truck, but it is like a van, more like a van, you

16 know what I'm saying? And it is parked kind across

17 the street and there is a car in front of us, okay.

18 And we saw the police and a young man struggling.

19 Q Okay. So let me stop you. Use that

20 pointer and show me was the police car on Canfield

21 Drive on this main street?

22 A Yeah, it was headed back towards West

23 Florissant. It is on this street. If this is West

24 Florissant, it is on this street here. I can't

25 think of exactly whereabout in there, but somewhere.


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1 But anyway, his car was headed back towards West

2 Florissant.

3 Q Okay.

4 A The police car was. There was one car

5 right in front of me when I was there. My car

6 there, I'm just not saying definitely this is the

7 spot. My car there and another car right there and

8 the police car right there headed back that way.

9 (indicating)

10 Q Okay. So he was, you were facing the

11 police car?

12

13

14

15

16

A

Q

A

Q

A

Right.

And his police

I'm sorry, say

Was the police

Right, right,

car was facing you?

that again?

car then facing?

right, like coming back

17 toward West Florissant.

18

19

20

Q

A

Q

Okay. Now, was this a marked police car?

It had police on it, Ferguson Police.

You could tell by looking at it, it was a

21 police car?

22

23

A

Q

Yeah, uh-huh.

And did it have like a light bar on it, do

24 you remember?

25 A Yeah, yeah, it was one of the regular


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1 police cars of Ferguson, like the van thing like.

2 You know, it looked like a SUV or something like

3 that. I'm not for sure.

4 Q Were the lights on the car going, like the

5 red and blue lights, do you recall them being on?

6 A No, I don't, I don't recall that.

7 Q Okay. So was that police car when you

8 first saw it, was it moving or was it standing

9 still?

10 A It was sitting still, but it was kind of

11 like across the street so nobody can really get by,

12 you know what I'm saying?

13

14

15

Q

A

Q

Okay. So did you have to stop your car?

Yes, yes, we had to stop.

And the car in front of you, was it

16 stopped also?

17

18

A

Q

Yes, it was stopped.

Do you remember anything about the car in

19 front of you?

20 A It was white and he turned around and then

21 I remember, I had to be close to one of those exits

22 there, one of those because I turned around in one

23 of those exits and went back out. And then I came

24 around to the back part and came in off of Chambers,

25 I came in off of Chambers back there.


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1 Q So we'll get to that part. That happens

2 in a little bit, right?

3

4

5

6

7 you?

8

9

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

Right, uh-huh.

So you don't turn around immediately?

No, no, I don't turn around immediately.

Okay. So there is a white car in front of

Uh-huh.

And could you see the people in the white

10 car, people or person?

11 A I wasn't really paying attention to them,

12 you know, I don't remember seeing them. I was

13 looking at the police truck really.

14

15

Q

A

What did you see at the police truck?

Well, the police and the young man, they

16 were struggling. The young man was standing outside

17 the window and the police inside the window. And he

18 had ahold of the young man, and the young man had

19 ahold of him, and they are struggling with one

20 another.

21 Q Okay. So could you see the police officer

22 inside the truck?

23 A I could see him, but not clearly, you

24 know, I could see him.

25 Q And how many police officers were inside


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1 the truck?

A As far as I could tell, one. 2

3 Q Now you say there was a young man standing

4 outside the truck?

A Yeah, uh-huh. 5

6 Q Was he the only other person you saw

7 outside or around the truck?

8 A Yes, he was the only person that I really

9 saw, you know, by the police.

10 Q Can you describe anything about the man

11 that was standing outside the truck?

12 A Uh, as far as I could tell he was a young

13 man, tall, you know, and like I say, at the time,

14 you know, like I couldn't really see him clearly,

15 you know what I'm saying? I could see he was a

16 black young male standing there. I turned to Mr.

17 , I said, man, you see this, we've got to get

18 out of here.

19 We didn't leave immediately, you know

20 what I'm saying? I didn't want to get blocked in.

21 I had an appointment to be at, you know what I'm

22 saying?

23 Q Okay. Now, when you say that they were

24 struggling.

25 A Uh-huh.


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1 Q

Page 17

And you said he had ahold of the officer's

2 shirt and the officer had ahold of his shirt?

3 A Right, uh-huh.

4 Q Okay. Was the officer sitting in the

5 driver's seat of the police car?

6 A Yeah, uh-huh.

7 Q All right. And as best you could tell,

8 was the police officer' window down?

9

10

A

Q

11 window?

12

13

A

Q

14 struggle?

15 A

Yeah, uh-huh.

So each one is reaching through the

Right, uh-huh.

Did you see anything else going on in this

The next thing I heard was a shot, pow,

16 and then the young man took off running.

17 Q When they were struggling, did you see

18 anybody, either one of them punching or hitting the

19 other one?

20 A It looked like, looked like they were

21 going at it because I could see the young man, you

22 know, I could see him hitting at the policeman and

23 the policeman, you know, as far as I could tell was

24 going like this. And it looked like he was going

25 for his gun, you know what I'm saying? So I was


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1 like.

2 Q Okay. So when you say it looked like he

3 was going

4 A I say looked like it, I'm not for sure,

5 I'm not for sure.

6 Q Sure. And that's what we want to make

7 sure you describe why you think that.

A Right. 8

9

10

Q What was he doing that made you think

A Because like when he leaned over like

11 this, I see his right hand disappear, you know, and

12 when we heard the shot, that's when I said, hey, it

13 is time for me to go. You know, I turned around,

14 like I said, one of those driveways down there it is

15 to the left, because I was headed on West Florissant

16 is from behind.

17 I was going up this way, I turned

18 around in one of them driveways. I see people

19 standing out and stuff like that. And then I backed

20 out and I headed out. As I was leaving, I heard

21 three more shots as I was leaving. I didn't see

22 them, I heard three more shots as I was leaving.

23 (indicating)

24 Q Let's go back to the point where you are

25 still on the street.


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Electronically signed b


1

2

3

4

5

A

Q

A

Q

Page 19

Right.

Did you ever get out of your car?

Oh, no.

Okay. So you're still, yes.

It is really

6 helpful, there is a lot of he, he went for his gun,

7 if we could use the officer's name, as we know now

8 Michael Brown, it would really help.

9 A I'm sorry, I couldn't hear a word.

10 If you could, maybe you

11 can report it better.

12 MS. ALIZADEH: Okay. You know what, what

13 I'm kind of letting him do is to kind of let him

14 narrate what happened and then I'm going to go back

15 hopefully and clarify when he says this, who are you

16 are talking about.

17 Thanks.

18 MS. ALIZADEH: If I don't make it clear to

19 anybody, please raise your hand and ask.

20 Q (By Ms. Alizadeh) So, sir, what the

21 was referring to when you say he did this and he did

22 that and he did this and he did that.

23

24

A

Q

25 about.

Uh-huh.

We don't know which he you are talking


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1

2

3

4

A

Q

A

Q

5 a man?

6 A

7 Q

8 truck.

9

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12

13

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15

16

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

Page 20

Okay.

So the police officer was a man, correct?

Right.

And the guy outside the truck, he was also

Right.

Did you know, when you saw the man at the

Uh-huh.

Outside the truck?

Right.

Had you ever seen him before that day?

No, I haven't.

Was he white or African-American?

African-American.

Could you tell whether the officer was

17 white or African-American?

18

19

A

Q

He's white.

Okay. So do you now know that the guy

20 outside the truck, do you know what his name is?

21

22

23

24

A

Q

A

Q

Yes, uh-huh.

What do you know now his name was?

Michael Brown.

Let's use his name, even though you didn't

25 know him back then.


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1

2

A

Q

Page 21

All right.

And that way we will know, we will be

3 clear on who is doing what. Had you ever seen that

4 police officer before?

5

6

7

8

9

A

Q

A

Q

A

No, I haven't.

Do you know any Ferguson police officers?

No, I don't.

Do you know that officer's name now?

No, I still don't know his name. I heard

10 it on TV, like I say, it don't stick with me, you

11 know.

12 Q

13 officer?

14

15

A

Q

So for now let's call him the police

All right.

And then we will talk about the other man

16 being Michael Brown, okay?

17

18

A

Q

Uh-huh.

So when you say, let's go back then just

19 to clarify. Michael Brown had his hand on the shirt

20 of the officer?

21

22

A

Q

Yes.

And the officer had his hands on Michael

23 Brown's shirt?

24 A As far as I could tell, looks like both of

25 them had ahold of each other.


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1 Q Okay. And you describe somebody is

2 punching or doing punching motions, which one was

3 doing the punching or both?

4 A I saw Michael punching a couple times

5 through the window, I would say a few times.

6 Q Okay. And did you ever see the officer

7 punching Michael?

8 A No. It seemed like, first when hitting

9 and stuff and the officer hand disappeared, I saw

10 the officer hand disappear and I heard a shot, that

11 was it.

12 Q Okay. About how long from the time you

13 came around here to see the officer, when you came

14 around and first saw the truck, was Michael Brown

15 already at the driver's --

16 A He was already there at the truck. They

17 was right in the middle of the street.

18 Q Okay. When you first saw them, were they

19 already struggling?

20

21

A

Q

Yes, uh-huh.

So for the time you first saw them until

22 you heard the gunshot.

23

24

25

A

Q

A

Uh-huh.

How long did you see that struggle?

To me it look like they struggle before


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1 the officer got his hand on his gun. They struggle

2 probably about, I don't know what, as far as I could

3 see two or three minutes, I say two or three

4 minutes.

5

6

7

Q

A

Q

Okay. And from what you could see.

Uh-huh.

And I'm asking you to give me an

8 assumption, and if you can't, then say I couldn't

9 really tell you.

10

11

A

Q

Okay, all right.

Did it look like one person was winning

12 the struggle or one person had the advantage in the

13 struggle or was it even?

14 A I really can't answer that because like it

15 was happening so fast. And like I told you, you

16 know, if I can't tell the story right away,

17 sometimes I forget things, you know, so I don't want

18 to put that, but as far as I could tell, you know,

19 like Michael hit him a few times. He had ahold of

20 Mike real close through the window and the officer,

21 both of them struggle to hit one another.

22 And I see Michael hit him a couple

23 times and then all of the sudden I see the officer

24 lean over, one of his hands disappear and then the

25 guy I was with , I heard a shot, pow, and Mike


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1 Brown took off running.

2 Q Did you ever see the officer's gun when

3 you heard that pow?

4 A I didn't see it when I heard the pow, I

5 heard the gun once the officer got out of the truck.

6 Q Okay. So when you heard the pow, you

7 didn't see the gun outside the car?

8 A No, no, no, no, I didn't see it outside

9 the car. All I heard was a pow. I was in the midst

10 of getting out of there then.

11 Q Okay. And when you heard the pow, is that

12 when you're like, okay, I got to get out of here?

13 A Oh, yeah, I said it was time to go. As

14 soon as we got room enough to turn around, we left.

15 Q But you saw some things before you got

16 turned around?

17

18

A

Q

Before I got turned around, yes.

So let's go back now. From the time of

19 the pow, the gunshot. Did you recognize that as a

20 gunshot, had you ever heard a gunshot before?

21

22

A

Q

23 point?

24

25

A

Q

Oh, yes, yes, I recognize the gunshot.

Okay. You just heard the one at that

At that point in time, yeah.

And so what did Michael Brown do when you


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1 heard pow?

2 A He took off running, and then the officer

3 got out of his truck and the officer had his gun

4 down to his side like that. Looked like the officer

5 was reaching up to his thing he had on his shirt

6 that he talked through, and then the kid ran a piece

7 off. And he stopped, he was behind a car, looked

8 like he had both of his hands on the car.

9 (indicating)

10

11

12

13

Q

A

Q

A

When you say he, are you talking --

Michael Brown.

Okay.

And then the officer was coming towards

14 him and then look like Michael Brown started coming

15 back towards the officer, right. And then that's

16 the last I saw of him, right. And then I was turned

17 around like this, I was backing out, turned around,

18 I seen it was clear, I took off. I heard three more

19 shots right before I started forward, like pow, pow,

20 pow, like that. And that was the last that I saw

21 until I heard the rest on the news.

22 Q Okay. So let's go back then from the time

23 that you saw Michael Brown start to run away, which

24 direction was he running?

25 A He was coming back this way. Michael


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Page 26

1 Brown, say if the police car was sitting right

2 there, he was coming back this way and then there

3 was another car sitting like here or something, I'm

4 not for sure, but that's where he stopped at. And I

5 said to myself in my head, you know, I think that

6 kid probably got hit, man. (indicating)

7

8

9

Q

A

Q

Hit, what do you mean hit, by a car?

Got shot, got shot.

Got shot. Okay. When you say, man, that

10 kid probably got hit?

11

12

13

14

A

Q

A

Q

Right.

You mean Michael Brown?

I mean Michael Brown.

Okay. So let's go step by step here. So

15 when you saw Michael Brown turn, run away from the

16 police car.

17

18

A

Q

Uh-huh.

Did he stay in the street or did he run to

19 a building?

20

21

22

23

24 car?

25

A

Q

A

Q

A

Right in the middle of the street.

Running down the middle of the street?

Right.

You said saw the officer get out of his

Yeah.


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1 Q

Page 27

Did the officer get out of his car right

2 away or was there a few moments before he got out or

3 do you recall?

4 A As far as I can recall, after Michael

5 Brown took off running, the officer got out of his

6 car. It was pretty quick, you know what I'm saying?

7 I couldn't say he sit there a long time, it was

8 pretty quick he got out of his car.

9 Q Okay. I'm just guessing, you tell me if

10 I'm wrong. So if Michael Brown started running.

11 A Right.

12 Q By the time the officer got out of his

13 car, Michael Brown had a little bit of a head start?

14 A He wasn't that far away from him as far as

15 I could remember. Michael Brown probably run about

16 two and a half car lengths or maybe three, something

17 like that.

18 Q Okay. And so you said the officer had his

19 gun when he got out of the car?

20

21

22

23 side.

24

A

Q

A

Q

Yes, uh-huh.

Where was his gun, in his hand?

Yeah, he had it in his hand down by the

All right. And you used your right hand,

25 do you recall it being his right hand?


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Page 28

1 A As far as I can tell. When he got out of

2 the door, he's in front of me and he had the gun

3 down to the side of his leg like this, and you know,

4 watching which way they run and he started to chase

5

6

Michael Brown too. (indicating)

Q Okay. So when you say he started to chase

7 Michael Brown.

8

9

A

Q

Uh-huh.

Let's clarify also. Was Michael Brown

10 running, was he walking?

11 A He was running. And then it looked like

12 he couldn't go no further, he stopped and put his

13 hand on the back of the car. And I recall that car

14 was brown or gold or something like that, as far as

15 I can recall.

16 It looked like Michael Brown, when

17 he's coming toward Michael Brown, Michael Brown took

18 his hands off the car and was coming towards the

19 officer.

20

21

22

23

24

25

Q

running

A

Q

you see

A

Okay. So when you saw Michael Brown

away.

Uh-huh.

Could you tell if he had been shot? Could

anything?

I couldn't tell if he had been shot.


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Page 29

1 That's when I said, well, he must have got hit

2 because that's all the further he ran. I know if

3 somebody shot at me, I would run further than that.

4

5

6

Q

A

Q

Sure.

You know what I'm saying?

So you only are guessing that he might

7 have been hit because he didn't keep running?

8 A Right, he might have been hit from the

9 first shot in the car.

10 Q So from the time the officer got out of

11 his car, and you said he chased Michael Brown, so

12 describe how he was moving, was he running, was he

13 walking?

14

15

16

17

18

A

Q

A

Q

A

The officer?

Yes.

The officer, can I stand up?

Yeah.

The officer kind of got out of the car, he

19 is doing this over here, looks like he was talking

20 through his thing and Michael Brown was running

21 probably from here to that young lady there. And

22 he's coming behind him and look like Michael Brown

23 just got tired all at once or couldn't run no

24 further, put his hand on the back of the car.

25 And then the police still coming at


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Page 30

1 him, he took his hand off the car and was walking

2 towards the police, I guess, it was walking or

3 running, I'm not sure, but he was coming towards the

4 officer and that's the last I saw.

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

15

you

was

Q

saw

kind

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

Okay. When you saw the officer, you

him chasing Michael Brown, but what you

of like, I'm doing this? (indicating)

It was a trot.

A trot?

Yeah, a trot.

So you describe that as a trot?

Right, uh-huh.

He had his gun down at his side.

Right.

Did you ever see him once he got out

said

did

of

16 the car, did you ever see the officer point his gun

17 at Michael Brown or in Michael Brown's direction?

18

19

20

21

A

Q

A

Q

22 anything?

23

24

A

Q

Not after he got out of the car.

You never saw that?

I never saw that.

Okay. Did you ever hear the officer say

I wasn't close enough to hear.

What about Michael Brown, did you ever

25 hear him say anything?


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1

2

A

Q

Page 31

No, I couldn't hear him say anything.

How about at the truck, could you hear

3 yelling cursing

4

5

A

Q

No, I couldn't hear nothing.

When you saw Michael Brown, you said he

6 ran a good piece or a piece, and then he stopped and

7 he put his hands on the back of the car?

8

9

10

A

Q

A

Uh-huh.

Was this a car that was in the roadway?

Yes, it was parked back towards West

11 Florissant the car was.

12 Q Okay. Did it appear that it was parked

13 out in the street?

14

15

16

A

Q

A

It was stopped like somebody stayed there.

Like somebody else who had to stop?

No, there was no one in that car, I

17 remember that.

18

19

20

Q

A

Q

Okay. You didn't see anyone?

I didn't see anyone in that car.

Let's be clear on this. Could you see

21 inside the car and say no one was in it?

22 A It was clear. Usually you see a shadow.

23 I was further enough away from the car if someone

24 was sitting in there, I probably could have seen a

25 shadow. I didn't even see an shadow from someone


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Page 32

1 sitting in it. So I can't say 100 percent there was

2 someone in there or not.

3 So you didn't see anybody in that car? Q

4

5

6

7

8

9

van?

A

Q

A

Q

A

No, I didn't see anybody in that car.

You think it was a brown or gold car?

Right, it was a brown or yellow car.

Was it regular car or was it a SUV or a

It look something like a Mercury, you

10 know, like one of the older Mercuries. I'm not for

11 sure it is even a Mercury or not, maybe a Ford. It

12 was something on this side of the street headed this

13

14

way.

Q

(indicating)

Okay. And so, and the way you described

15 it that he put, Michael Brown put both of his hands

16 on the back of that car?

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

big

like

A

Q

guy?

A

Q

on

A

Q

A

Right, right, uh-huh.

Now, we know Michael Brown was a tall guy,

Right.

When you say the back of the car, was it

the trunk area?

Right, it was on the trunk.

So was he leaned over at all?

Right, right, he had his hands on the


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Page 33

1 trunk. (indicating)

2 Q All right. And so how long in seconds or

3 minutes, if it was minutes, did he stay there,

4 Michael Brown, stay there with his hands on the

5 trunk of that car?

6 A As far as I know maybe a minute and a

7 half, two minutes maybe.

8 Q When he was staying there with his hands

9 on the trunk of the car, did the officer continue to

10 move toward him?

11

12

A The officer continued towards him.

Q Was the officer firing his weapon as he

13 was moving towards him?

A No, I didn't see him fire. 14

15 Q And then you said at some point you see

16 Michael Brown walk towards the officer or come

17 towards the officer?

18 A Right.

19 Q So can you describe how he was coming,

20 running, walking, trotting, staggering, stumbling?

21 A He was walking towards the officer, but it

22 wasn't trotting. Can I get up?

23

24

Q

A

Sure.

Say he was the officer, and he has got his

25 hands like that, so the officer started coming


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Page 34

1 toward him, so he got off the trunk and he was

2 coming towards the officer like that. (indicating)

3 Q

4 the trunk.

5

6

7

A

Q

A

Okay. So when he was, had his hands on

Uh-huh.

Was he totally behind the car?

Yeah, yeah, he's behind the car. But the

8 right on the edge. Say this is the car there and

9 that's West Florissant over there, he was like on

10 this side, you know what I'm saying? That side was

11 toward the curb and he didn't have to walk too far

12 around the car.

13 Q So when he had his hands on the trunk,

14 would he had been facing the officer at that point?

15

16

A

Q

Yes.

So when he was running away, at some point

17 then he had to turn to get behind that car and put

18 his hands on the car?

19 A Excuse me, as he's running away, looked

20 like he got tired, and he did like that. He just

21

22

got turned like that. (indicating)

Q After a minute or two, or whatever, you

23 said he had his hands on the back of the car?

24

25

A

Q

Uh-huh.

On the trunk of the car, did he then stand


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Page 35

1 back up and come towards the officer?

2 A He never did go down. He was just

3 standing behind the car. The officer --

4 Q I stand back up, that was my choice of

5 words, that was wrong. I meant, you know, you

6 talked about he was leaning over a little bit.

7 A Yeah.

8 Q So did he come back up standing upright

9 and then move towards the officer or did he stay in

10 that leaning position?

11 A He wasn't bent over coming towards the

12 officer, as far as I could tell. That's about the

13 last I saw of him.

14 Q Okay. When he was coming toward the

15 officer, and I know you're in the process at this

16 point of thinking, how can I get out of here, right?

17

18

A

Q

Oh, yeah.

And there was a car in front of you and

19 you were worried about hitting that car, right?

20 A Right, uh-huh, right. Before I turned

21 around, as the car was turning around, I was turning

22 around, you know what I'm saying?

23

24

And I seen a bunch of people out

there and I was backing out and was telling

25 me, come on back. And, you know, I came on back and


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Page 36

1 I turned around. By the time I got back to West

2 Florissant, there was a bunch of other officers car

3 coming.

4 Q Okay. So was there a car behind your

5 truck?

6 A Oh, yeah, there was a car behind me, but

7 they wasn't right up on me, you know what I'm

8 saying?

9 Q So when you saw Michael Brown coming

10 towards the officer, how were Michael Brown's hands?

11

12

13

14

15

16

17

got

last

the

that

A As far as I can tell, you know, after he

out of the car, the last I saw him, that's the

I saw him. (indicating)

Q And at that point, at some point towards

end of this, though, are you looking at cars so

you could try to back up?

A Yeah, because I made one turn. I make

18 that one turn up in here, I backed out and then I

19 head on out.

20

21

Q

A

Okay.

I never looked back after that. But after

22 I was backing out, I heard pow, pow, pow, I took

23 off.

24

25

Q

A

So you heard another round of gunfire?

Uh-huh.


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



1

2

3

Q

A

Q

Page 37

Were you still on Canfield Drive?

I was still on Canfield Drive, right.

And so when you saw Michael Brown walking

4 toward the officer, can you give me a guess or

5 estimate as to how many steps he took or how far he

6 walked?

7 A As far as I can tell it looked like two or

8 three steps to me, you know, something like that.

9 Q And then you took your eyes off of what

10 was going on?

11

12

A

Q

13 see it?

14 A

Yes, yes, ma'am.

So whatever happened after that you didn't

Right, no. All I heard, when the police

15 officer coming, most of them, say if this was to

16 turn, I backed out and I turned and I was headed

17 that way. By the time I got up in there, all I

18 heard was pow, pow, pow.

19 Q So were you, when you heard pow, pow, pow,

20 this round of gunfire?

21

22

23

24 call

A

Q

A

Right.

Were you already facing

Yes. And the gentleman with me that I

, he was looking back, you know. He said,

25 I think he just shot him again, you know what I'm


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



Page 38

1 saying? I was watching traffic and trying not too

2 run into the policemen coming.

3 Q Okay. So the last time you saw Michael

4 Brown he was still walking?

5

6

7

8

A

Q

A

Q

Right, he was still walking.

He wasn't on the ground?

No, he wasn't on the ground.

Okay. And you heard a series of shots,

9 pow, pow, pow?

10 A Something told me like, to me it sounded

11 like three.

Q

13 It sounded like three to me. A

14 Did you ever hear any more shots after Q

15

16

17

that?

curb.

A No, after the three, I was almost at the

I was West Florissant again, I was trying to

18 turn right to come in the back. Police cars was

19 coming with their sirens and stuff on, you know.

20 Q Okay. Number 34, do you remember seeing

21 another young African-American guy at or near those

22 cars that you described?

23 A I can't remember if there was somebody

24 else there or not, you know. Only somebody I seen,

25 I can't really remember.


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Page 39

1 Q Okay. Do you remember that when you, and

2 you remember September 3rd, so it was over a month

3 ago, but you remember on September 3rd, or

4 thereabouts, going and talking to a FBI agent and an

5

6

attorney named ?

A Right, right, right.

7 Q Do you remember telling them back then,

8 and I told you I was going to have a transcript of

9 your statement.

10

11

A

Q

12 statement?

13

14

15

16

17

18

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

Right.

But to be fair, you haven't heard your

No.

Since you gave it, right?

No, I haven't.

You know they recorded it right?

Yes.

But you haven't had an opportunity to

19 listen to it?

20

21

22

23

24

25

A

Q

A

Q

about this

remember?

No, I haven't.

You haven't got a copy of the transcript?

No.

But I told you I was going to maybe talk

if there were things that you didn't


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



1

2

A

Q

Page 40

Right.

So when you say these things, you know,

3 you have to tell me if you remember saying this.

4

5

A

Q

Right, okay.

So do you remember on page seven, and I

6 will give you a copy that doesn't have my highlight

7 on it. So here is a copy of your transcript so you

8 see your name right there.

A Right. 9

10

11

12

Q And that's your attorney's name?

A Right.

Q So I'm just going to take you to about

13 page seven.

14 A Uh-huh.

15 Q And I don't say this to embarrass you, can

16 you read, okay?

17 A No.

18 Q Okay. You want me to go ahead and read it

19 for you?

20

21

A

Q

Yes, please do.

Okay. So on page seven, do you remember

22 the county police officer's name, Detective

do you remember that at all, ? 23

24 A No, I don't remember his name. I remember

25 him coming to me.


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Page 41

1 Q Okay. So do you remember up at the top

2 and saying, okay. How many people did you see

3 outside the car?

4 And then you say, outside the car?

5 And he says, uh-huh.

6 And you say, there was just him and there

7 was another black guy standing back behind the

8 police car.

9 A If I said it, you know, like it is true.

10 But like I say, you know, I do have a problem with

11 my memory sometimes like I say, let me go too long,

12 I can't tell you what I ate for breakfast this

13 morning.

14

15

16

Q

A

Q

And that's me to.

Yeah, uh-huh.

Remember I said I'm only using this to see

17 if you remember saying that.

18

19

A

Q

Okay, uh-huh.

Now, and you're saying, hey, if I said it,

20 I said it, I believe you, right?

21

22

A

Q

Right, right, I believe you, right.

But what I'm saying is that me saying

23 that, does that remind you of it?

24 A All right. Well, as far as I can tell,

25 really, I can't recall the other black guy. But


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



Page 42

1 like I said, the gentleman with me, he told me, you

2 know, me and him, you know, we had talked about it.

3 Q Okay.

4 A And he said, yeah, there was one black guy

5 that was standing back there by the car also, you

6 know what I'm saying?

7 Q Okay.

8 A If I said it to them like at that time,

9 you know, that's what I said.

10 Q Okay. So when you spoke to the federal

11 agents and the county detective back on

12 September 3rd. At that time were you telling them

13 as best you could what you remember from that day?

14

15

A

Q

As best I could, right.

So did you, were you truthful about

16 everything as best you could?

17 A I was truthful about everything that I

18 remember, that I could remember.

19 Q All right. And so after you and

20 out of there, where did you go?

got

21 A Uh, I came back around and I came into the

22 back of the Canfield Apartment, came back up to

23 Chambers, I came back up West Florissant to

24 Chambers, took a right on Chambers and I went down

25 right there by the fire station, I think it is Green


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



Page 43

1 or something like that you come in, I'm not for

2 sure. I think the name of the street is Green.

3 I came into the back of the Canfield

4 Apartment, back there where they have that gate,

5 they have a gate back there like a railroad

6 crossing, you know, I came through that.

7 Q So it is blocked, there is a gate?

8

9

10

A

Q

A

It was open that day.

Okay.

So I came through there. I went on back

11 around to the

12 Then

13 left, coming up there to see, you know, how

14 people come to see what's happening, you know. I

15 went back, went out the same way I came in and went

16 on to work.

17

18

19

20

Q

A

Q

A

So when you left, you left out west?

Coming back toward West Florissant.

And then you somehow?

Took a right on West Florissant and took a

21 right on Chambers and then I came into the back of

22 Canfield.

23

24

Q

A

Okay.

There's only two way in there that I know

25 of from right there and from the back side.


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



1 Q And

2 complex here?

3 A Right, right, uh-huh.


Page 44

in the

4 Q Can you use the pointer and tell me do you

5 know what building they live in?

6 A No, but outside. could tell you

7 what street.

8 Q All right.

9 A I can't tell you what the name of the

10 street, I'm not that good really.

11 Q Do you know is it a building that is on

12 this side?

A Well,

Q This side?

A Say like coming up here and there is a

13

14

15

16

17 I come around here, where is the office. Do

18 you have the office on here?

19

20

Q

A

I don't know.

There is an somewhere, but I come

21 to a stop and then, and either this is it, I'm not

22 for sure which one you have to come down and go into

23 the back like that. (indicating)

24 Q When you came back into the Canfield Green

25 Apartment Complex, did you ever seem Michael Brown


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



Page 45

1 again?

2

3

A

Q

No.

You didn't see his body in the street or

4 anything when you came back?

5

6

A

Q

No, no.

From where you were?

7 A I wasn't on this street any more where him

8 and the officer were. I never did come back to that

9 street until afterwards, maybe the next day or

10 something, you know. I seen where they had the

11 flowers and stuff like that out there.

Q But that day when you came back and went

to your ?

A Right.

12

13

14

15

16

Q From you could not see this?

A No, huh-uh. You couldn't even get back in

17 there no more, I just use the back way, I always use

18 the back way.

19 Q

20 again?

21

22

A

Q

Did you ever see that police officer

No, I never saw him again.

Now, when you said that when you got out

23 of there, you saw officers coming into the complex?

24

25

A

Q

Right, uh-huh.

But the whole time you watch what was


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



Page 46

1 going on between Michael Brown and the officer, was

2 he the only officer there?

3

4

5

6

7

8

9 all?

10

11

12

13

14

15

16

A

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Yeah.

Okay. And then, so you say you went to

Yeah, right.

And did you then walk down to this area at

No, not at all.

Okay. So --

So that was that evening I had went to

17 work for about two or three hours and I came back.

18 Q All right. Now, so you know that there

19 were a bunch of police down here later after the

20 shooting?

21 A Oh, yeah, I seen them coming in and

22 passing me. As I was making it to Chambers, police

23 started coming, you know.

24 Q But you didn't tell the police, you didn't

25 stick around that day to tell them what you saw?


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a

Electronically signed b


Page 47

1 A No, I didn't stick around to tell nobody

2 nothing.

3 Q Why not?

4 A Number one, you know, like I figure, you

5 know, like I already been in trouble with the

6 police, right.

7

8

9 , he, what you call

10 that, when they let you go, what they call that.

11

12

Q

A

You did your sentence?

He said I didn't do the crime, okay. And

13 they figure me no way in that case, you know what

14 I'm saying?

15

16

Q

A

Okay.

I kept telling them that. When I came to

17 talk to officers like I'm talking to you now, try to

18 tell them. Then they just throw me right now, just

19 because I wouldn't testify against people, you know

20 what I'm saying?

21

22

Q

A

So --

I did

23 that I will never get back, you know what I'm

24 saying?

25 Q So do you have a general distrust of


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



1 police officers?

2

3

A

Q

Yes, I do.

So you don't like to be --

Page 48

4 A I don't like them. I know we can't live

5 without the police, okay, because this world would

6 be messed up, you know. You turn the TV on all the

7 time people killing people every day, but I don't

8 like it when they make a mistake like that and don't

9 try, you know, to straighten them out.

10 If someone is telling you over and

11 over, hey, I didn't do it. At least take the time,

12 you know, try to see what's going on, you know what

13 I'm saying?

14 Like I say, I don't want to see

15 Michael Brown's family, I don't know how to say

16 this, I don't want to see nobody hurt. I'm the type

17 of person, I don't believe in convicting nobody. I

18 don't believe in accusing nobody of nothing, I don't

19 really know, you know, what I'm saying. I just

20 don't like hurting people.

21 Q So that day you didn't go talk to the

22 police, but at some point you were talking to

23 federal authorities and a county detective on

24 September 3rd, how did that come about?

25 A They came to my house, they came to my


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



1

2

Page 49

house and because, I guess, they seen the

or they heard somebody saying that I told I

3 know something or something, I don't know, but

4 anyway, but Wednesday they showed me a picture of my

5

6 They got my which is my

7 , but I drive it. They went to my

8 and they talked to

9 As far as I can tell, he told

10 them

11 He told them my name and stuff so they start

12

13

looking me up. I used to live on , I moved

off

14 you know.

15

16 okay?

17

18

Q

A

Q

19 found you?

20

21

22

A

Q

A

, I moved to a different street and now,

I don't want you to stay where you live,

Right, right.

So you're saying that basically the police

Right, right.

It was because of your ?

Right, right, and then I went to talk to

23 them then because I didn't want to get involved and

24 they gave me a subpoena to come down there to talk

25 to them. The subpoena, I guess, like you sent me,


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Page 50

1 you know what I'm saying? So I called my lawyer and

2 asked him, you know, could they do that, you know.

3 I said, man, I'm here to mind my own business just

4 trying to enjoy my life, you know what I'm saying?

5 I want to live what I got left. He said, yes, you

6 got to go, he said instead of going, he called the

7 officer and I don't know if he called the officer or

8 the officer called them so he could meet with them.

9 So we met with them and talked to them and then I

10 didn't have to go to this thing here, right. So we

11 met them the day before or two days before, I'm not

12 for sure.

13 Q Let's go back just to clarify. You

14 actually were given a subpoena to testify in a

15 but a

16 different one?

17

18

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

A

Q

Right, right, right, not this one.

And that's because the police somehow

found you because of your ?

A Right, that's what I'm figuring.

Q And that's what they told you, they showed

you a picture of your and said this is your

A Yeah.

Q And you said, yeah?


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1

2

3

A

Q

A

Page 51

Yeah, I was driving.

And here is the subpoena?

Right. They want something that I didn't

4 really care for, they said, you come down here of

5 your own free will. No, I didn't come on my own

6 free will, I came because you told me I had to, you

7 know what I'm saying?

8 Q So once you got the subpoena, you talked

9 to your attorney and your attorney arranged for you

10 to come in and be interviewed?

11 A He said he would be there with me because

12 like, like you say, I don't trust the police to sit

13 there and talk to them. There's some type of way,

14 you know, I don't use all my words right like most

15 people, but, you know, like they take what I say and

16 twist it towards me, you know, like ever since then,

17 I just haven't been comfortable.

18 Q Okay. So that's how you ended up making a

19 statement to federal agents is because your attorney

20 worked it out that you could come in and be

21 interviewed rather than testify, right?

22

23

A

Q

That's right.

And now you know that I had you served

24 with a subpoena to come here today, right?

25 A Okay, uh-huh.


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1 Q And so when you say you're here of your

2 own free will, you are only here because I

3 subpoenaed you?

4

5

6

A

Q

A

Right, correct.

Are you telling the truth today?

Yes, yes, you know, like I said, you know,

7 I've been called a lot of names, but lying isn't one

8 of them.

9

10

11

Q

A

Q

12 right?

13

14

15

A

Q

A

I told you are not in any trouble?

Right, right.

We want you to tell us what you saw,

Right, right.

Have I treated you fairly?

Oh, yes, you know, right, but do you

16 believe me when I say I just want to be left alone

17 and just live my life, you know, treat everybody

18 nice, go to church every now and then. I just want,

19 that's all I want, you know.

20 Q I think a lot of people would have really

21 rather not have been involved in this?

22

23

24

25

A

Q

A

Yeah, you know.

But here we are, right?

Yeah, you know.

MS. ALIZADEH: I don't have any further


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1 questions and I told you Sheila may have some

2 questions.

3 A Right, uh-huh, okay.

Page 53

4 MS. WHIRLEY: Okay. Number 34, using that

5 map, when you heard the first shot at the car.

6 First of all, do you have a good idea looking at

7 this map where you were when you heard that first

8 shot?

9 A Map, I can't really be sure, but it was

10 somewhere. I figure it was somewhere in between

11 here and here. (indicating)

12 Q (By Ms. Whirley) The car was here?

13 A I can't say definitely, you know what I'm

14 saying? But it was somewhere between there I was,

15 you know what I'm saying?

16 Q

17 you were?

18

19

20

A

Q

A

Can you say in car lengths how far away

Yeah, from the police, about from I say --

About how many car lengths would you say?

One car was in front of me, I say about

21 two, three car lengths.

22

23

24

Q

A

Q

Okay. From the police car?

Right, uh-huh.

You didn't see the beginning of the tussle

25 is my understanding?


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



1

2

3

A

Q

A

Q

No, ma'am.

How is your eyesight?

Well, it is not good.

What do you mean?

Page 54

4

5 A I wear glasses, but I lost my glasses and

6 I can't afford any more right now so, but during the

7 time they had me they gave me some

8 free ones. I accidentally broke them once doing

9 work. And the government, I got some free ones,

10 they won't help me get no more until a certain

11 length of time.

12 Q When you say it is not good, what do you

13 need glasses for?

14 A I'm kind of like farsighted you know what

15 I'm saying? Like something close up I can see

16 pretty good, but something a distance off.

17 Q So when you're looking at longer distances

18 you don't see well?

19

20

21

22

23

A

Q

A

Q

A

No, no, I don't.

All right. How about your hearing?

Hearing is not good at all.

What do you mean?

I mean, I've been having problems with my

24 ear for the longest, you know. Like the gentleman

25 there right here, I guess, was saying something, I


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Page 55

1 could hear him mumbling, but I couldn't hear him,

2 you know what I'm saying? Sounds like he was

3 mumbling, I'm not say he was mumbling, you know what

4 I'm trying to say?

5

6

7

Q

A

Q

You can hear me pretty well I can tell?

I can hear you very well.

And you mention your memory, tell us what

8 problems do you have with your memory?

9

10

A Well, you know, , my

and God knows I pray I don't

11 have it. I forgets a lot of things.

12

13 told you, my , I'm with my

I just

tells me

14 I just told you, you know, like that. And some of

15 the for, I had to go back to them like

16 a few times and asked them is this what you said you

17 wanted. I think they may have told me.

18 Q You say you have a family history of

19

20

21

22

23

24

25

for

in

A

Q

A

the

there.

Q

?

Yes, I do.

You have problems with your memory now?

Yes, uh-huh. I have a doctor appointment

that was the earliest he could get me

I'm on different medications.

Are the medications for your memory?


f343a6e1-f279-4715-aa60-b9420633e92a



1

2

A

Page 56

No, not yet, but I have seen a

before and now they're sending me to, I

3 guess, you call it a memory doctor, you know. I'm

4 supposed to meet with them on the that I can

5 think of.

6 Q Were you having memory problems back in

7 August, when did your memory problems start, is the

8 question?

9 A Oh, it has been before then. It has been

10 with me for a while, you know what I'm saying? Off

11 and on.

12 Q Okay. You take, you do or you don't take

13 medicine for it?

14

15

16

A

Q

A

No, not for the memory yet.

Okay.

I take medicine for those migraines I have

17 like every morning, I mean.

18 Q Okay. At some point it sounded like you

19 said it appeared that Michael Brown was injured when

20 he, you know, ran and then stopped at the car. What

21 made you think he was injured?

22 A Because like anybody, I know I was a young

23 man once before myself. I know if I got shot at by

24 anybody, police or anybody, I would have ran farther

25 than that, you know what I'm saying?


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1 Q

Page 57

Right. Was there anything physically that

2 he was doing that made you think he was shot?

3 A It looked like he was kind of out of

4 breath or something, you know, or just couldn't go

5 no further to me.

6

7

8

9

10

Q

thought

A

Q

to the

Okay. And that

he was injured?

Right, uh-huh.

Okay. When you

car when they were

was the reason why you

said that, let's go back

tussling at the car and

11 you saw the officer with one hand trying to, I

12 guess.

13 A I don't know what he was trying to do, but

14 I know both of them had ahold of one another's

15 shirt.

16 Q I want to go to the part where you said

17 that the officer, you could see him as if he was

18 going for his gun?

19 A I saw him like this, I seen him lean over

20 like this, right, and next thing I heard was a shot,

21

22

pow.

Q

(indicating)

Okay. Let me ask you a question. When

23 you saw him leaning as if he was getting a gun right

24 before you heard that shot, could you see Michael

25 Brown's hands?


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Page 58

1 A Yes, you know, he was outside the window,

2 you know, looked like he was -- was staring at the

3 officer too.

4

5

Q

A

Were both his hands outside the windows?

No, looks like one of them trying to hit

6 the officer.

7 Q He was hitting the officer?

8 A Looks like he was trying to hit him, okay,

9 right. But to me the officer was like this and the

10 officer went like this, there wasn't no time I heard

11 pow. (indicating)

12 Q Okay. So the officer went like, the

13 officer --Michael Brown's hands and the officer's

14 hands are kind of at each other?

15

16

17 gun?

18

19

A

Q

A

Q

Right, uh-huh.

And then the officer goes like towards the

He leans inside.

Let me finish that question. He appears

20 he goes to get his gun?

21

22

A

Q

Uh-huh.

You don't see Michael Brown inside the car

23 going like to the gun too?

24

25

A

Q

No, I didn't see that, no.

Okay.


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Page 59

1 A As far as I can remember I didn't see

2 that.

3 Q All right. You mention, I thought you

4 said, I'm not sure that you did, you

5

6

for something you didn't do?

7

8

9

A

Q

A

Right.

What was that, what was the crime?

They

10 , okay, but I was somebody

11 walking around every day without a car and without

12 good clothes to wear. How I had all of that, you

13 now what I'm saying?

14 Q And you said you had been in trouble with

15 the police, do you have any convictions?

16

17

18

19

20

A

Q

A

Q

A

21 uh-huh.

22

23

Q

A

Yes, I do.

What do you have?

I have a drug conviction also.

A drug conviction that you were guilty of?

Yeah, I was guilty of that one, yeah,

Anything else?

Well, I had, I had some other things that

24 come through life, as I was coming to life, me and

25 this guy got into it. They got me for firing a


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Page 60

1 weapon at this guy, like this guy had threatened my

2 life, okay.

3

4

5

6

7

8

9

10

11

12

13

14

Q Okay.

A That was back in the day, that was back in

the early, late , it was late , right.

Q Anything else, any burglary or stealing?

A No, no, that was about it.

Q Okay.

A I'm sorry, I'm sorry, rna' am, yes, I did.

They charged me with a burglary crime also.

Q Was that an unjust charge?

A Uh, well

Q Did you get convicted of it?

A No, I don't think I did, but it is still

15 on my record, it still was on my record. Now it is

16

17

probably off it has been over years ago.

Q Okay. That day when you talked to the

18 federal agents, I think it was back in September I

19 think Kathi said. Let me see, I have September 3rd.

20

21

A

Q

Uh-huh.

Did they ask you was anyone with you and

22 you said no?

23 A I said no at first because I didn't want

24 to put nobody else in that, you know what I'm

25 saying? But my lawyer stopped it. He told me, he


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Page 61

1 said, , you know, tell them the truth. Was

2 somebody else with you? I told my lawyer no, I

3 don't want to put nobody else into, you know, the

4 mess. I didn't even want to be there.

5 Q That's why you didn't want to tell them

6 about that person that was with you?

7 A Right, uh-huh.

8 Q Okay. When you said that there was a shot

9 and then Michael Brown ran and then you saw Michael

10 Brown hesitate on the car as if he's maybe injured

11 or something, and then he turns around and faces the

12 officer?

13 A When he was on the car, he could see the

14 officer coming. Like I say, if this is the car,

15 that gentleman right there, the policeman coming at

16 me with the glasses on, okay. Michael Brown, the

17 whole car, he was on this side of the car and if the

18 car, West Florissant down here and Canfield right

19 like this, he is on this side of the car. And the

20 officer was trying to come up towards Michael.

21

22

Q

A

23 the side.

24

25

Q

A

The officer was trotting towards Michael?

Right, right, right, with his gun down to

Was Michael facing the officer?

Yes, oh, yeah, he was there, you know what


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Page 62

1 I'm saying?

2 Q Okay. At this point he had turned around

3 from running?

4

5

A

Q

Right, right.

So he's facing the officer and the officer

6 is trotting towards him?

7 A Right, uh-huh.

8 Q And then Michael is then walking towards

9 the officer?

10

11

A

Q

Right, uh-huh.

What I want to know is what the officer

12 was doing when Michael was walking toward him, you

13 said he was trotting?

14

15

16

17

18

A

Q

A

Q

A

Yeah, yeah, he was coming up toward him.

Show us, please, I'll walk towards you.

Right, right. You come closer.

Okay.

Michael Brown like that, and Michael Brown

19 came off the car and then by that time everybody

20 Q I'm walking towards you, I want you to be

21 the officer and show me what the officer is doing.

22

23

24

A

Q

A

All right. You know, he's like this.

Okay. He did not have his gun?

He had his gun holding it right here.

25 (indicating)


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1

2

3

4

5

6

Q

A

Q

A

Q

A

Page 63

He's holding it down, that's what you saw?

Right, that's what I saw.

And is that the last thing you saw?

That's the last thing I saw.

You didn't see Michael Brown's hands up?

No, I didn't. Like I say, when I seen

7 Michael Brown, he was one or two steps from the car.

8

9

Q

A

Okay.

As a matter of fact, when I seen him

10 coming off the car like this, that's the last I saw

11

12

of him.

Q

13 officer?

14

15

16

A

Q

A

(indicating)

You didn't see Michael Brown charging the

No, no, I didn't see him charging.

Okay.

As far as I can remember, I don't remember

17 him charging. I remember he was coming off the car

18 and when I turned around, like I said, I heard three

19 shots and my friend was looking back. And he said,

20 I call him my friend, but anyway oh, man, he shot

21 him again, you know. Hey, I'm trying to watch these

22 policemen coming in and watch the people, you see

23 what I'm saying?

24 Q You didn't see if he was shooting at him

25 when he was running away from him?


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Page 64

1

2

A

Q

I heard three shots, I think it was three.

And again, just for clarity. From what

3 you saw, there was no struggle for the gun, the

4 officer

Documents

Case: State of Missouri v. Darren Wilsondocumentingferguson.wustl.edu › omeka › archive › files › ...State of Missouri v. Darren Wilson Grand Jury Volume XIII October 16, 2014