Cardinal Danielou-Dont Kill

7/30/2019 Cardinal Danielou-Dont Kill

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Cardinal Danielou__Don't Kill"August 9, 1973

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Cardinal Danielou: Yes. And Jesus, Jesus is this. So I amvery, very glad to meet you...

Prabhupada: May, may I ask you one question? Jesussays: "Thou shalt not kill." So why Christian people arekilling?

Cardinal Danielou: (French)

Yogesvara: (French)

Cardinal Danielou: It is forbidden in Christianity to kill.Surely. But chiefly we think that there is a differencebetween the life of man and the life the beasts. N'est cepas? And that the life of man is sacred because man isthe image of God. But we have not the same respectrelating to the beasts, to the animals, and we think thatthe animals are at the service of man, and that it islegitime to man. For us, each life is not the same. What is

really important is the life of man, and the human personis really sacred and it is forbidden to kill a humanperson...

Prabhupada: No, but Jesus does not says "human being".He just said generally: "Thou shalt not kill."

Yogesvara: (translates)

Cardinal Danielou: (French) In the Bible we have many

example of, by example, we have many sacrifice in thesacrifice of animals. You know. Many sacrifice of animalsin the Bible. Alors. This is not forbidden. It is sure that itis a great sin to kill a man, alors. There is surely the greatquestion of the war, the war, the national war. And is, itis...
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Prabhupada: You, you, you think that to kill an animal isno sin?

Cardinal Danielou: No, no, no. No sin. No sin. No sin.

Because we think that the simple biologic life is notsacred. That is, what is sacred is the human life, thehuman life. But not the life, ass.

Prabhupada: But I think that it is interpretation. JesusChrist says generally: "Thou shalt not kill."

Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Jesus said, but this phrase is not,the text is not a text of Jesus. It is a text of the Old

Testament, and it is a text...

Prabhupada: No, it is New Testament also.

Cardinal Danielou: Old Testament! Old Testament.

Prabhupada: No, is it not in the New Testament?

Cardinal Danielou: It is in the Levitic, in the Levitic, in thebook of the Levitic.

Prabhupada: Ahhh.

Cardinal Danielou: It is not a word of Jesus. It is a word ofthe Levitic, and it is a part of the decalogue of the TenCommandments what God gave to Moses.

Prabhupada: That's all right. But Ten Commandments,one of the Commandments is that: "Thou shalt no kill."

Yogesvara: (French)

Cardinal Danielou: (French) Mais, it is surely, I think, it issurely the killing of the man. I think, I have a greatdifficulty to understand why in Indian religion... Becauseit is impossible... By example, it is necessary, pour lanourriture?


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Yogesvara: For food.

Cardinal Danielou: Oui. For the food of man to eat, to eat,and...

Prabhupada: Man can eat grains, food grains, fruits, milk,sugar, wheat...

Cardinal Danielou: Not, not, (French)?

Yogesvara: No flesh?

Cardinal Danielou: No flesh?

Prabhupada: No. Why? Just like the fruits. The fruits aremeant for human being. The tiger does not come to eatyour fruits. So tiger's food is another animal. Man's foodis fruit, food grains, milk products. Just like fruit...

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes. I understand. It is whybecause grain and plants are also living beings.

Prabhupada: That's all right, that's all right.

Cardinal Danielou: Living beings.

Prabhupada: That, that we also understand. But if, if youcannot live... Just like, generally, if I can live on fruits andgrains and milk, why should I kill another animal?

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes...

Prabhupada: Another thing is that how can you supportthat animal killing is not sin?



Bhagavan: How do you justify it?

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, because we, we thought that


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there is a difference of nature between life of man, life ofspirit, and biological, biological life. And we say...[break] ...not really exists, and we think so. We think thatanimals, plant are not real beings, are world ofappearance and that you human person only is realbeing. And that in this sense, the material world iswithout importance.

Prabhupada: Now..., I follow. Suppose you are living inthis house. So you are not this house, that's a fact.

Cardinal Danielou: Yes. Yes.

Prabhupada: But if I come and break your house, is it not

inconvenience for you?

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, surely. Surely it is inconvenient.

Prabhupada: So if I cause inconvenience unto you, is itnot criminal?

Cardinal Danielou: It is inconvenient to me, but is...

Prabhupada: No. If I cause some inconvenience to you, is

it not criminal? Is it not sinful?

Cardinal Danielou: I think if there is a serious reason, it isnot the destruction of the spiritual man itself. Byexample, it is perfectly possible to use of the reality ofthe material world, of the natural world to the valuablefinality of human vocation. We think that the question isa question of motivation. It could exist bad reason to killan animal. But if the killing of animal is to give food tochildren, men, women, we ont faim. Qui...?

Devotee: Hungry.

Cardinal Danielou: Hungry, we are hungry, it islegitimate, legitimate... We have... It is difficult to admitthat in India, comment dit-on les vaches?


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Yogesvara: The cows.

Cardinal Danielou: Oui, the cows.

Prabhupada: One thing is...

Danielou: It is not permitted to kill a...?

Yogesvara: Cow.

Cardinal Danielou: ...a cow to give him to children whoare hungry and the...

Prabhupada: No, no, from any other consideration, cows'

milk we drink. Therefore she's mother. Is it not?


Cardinal Danielou: Oui.

Yogesvara: N'est ce pas?

Cardinal Danielou: Oui, yes, surely, surely, but the...

Prabhupada: According to Vedic conversion, we have gotseven mothers. Atma-mata, the original mother, gurohpatni, wife of the master, spiritual master...

Cardinal Danielou: Yes.

Bhagavan: Can you understand?


Prabhupada: Atma-mata guroh patni brahmani, the wifeof the priest.


Cardinal Danielou:


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Prabhupada: Raja-patnika, the wife of king, the queen.


Prabhupada: Four. Atma-mata guroh patni brahmani raja-patnika, dhenur. Dhenu means cow. Dhenur dhatri.Dhatri means nurse. Tatha prthvi. Prthvi means earth.

These are seven mothers. So cow is mother because wedrink milk, cow's milk.


Prabhupada: How can I deny that she's not mother? Sohow we can support killing of mother?

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, it is a motive. But we thinkthat...

Prabhupada: Therefore, in India, those who are meat-eaters, they are advised... That is also under restriction.Advised to kill some lower animals like goats, even up tobuffaloes. But cow killing is the greatest sin.

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, we... I know this. I know this.

And this is for us a difficulty, a difficulty...

Prabhupada: Yes, because the cow is mother.

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes...

Prabhupada: You, you take the milk from the mother...

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes.

Prabhupada: And when she's old, she cannot give youmilk, therefore she should be killed?


Prabhupada: Is that very good proposal?


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Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui, oui.

Yogesvara: He says yes, it is.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Yogesvara: He says: "Yes, it is a good proposition."

Cardinal Danielou: If, if the men are hungry, it is the lifeof men is more important than the life of cow.

Prabhupada: Therefore, because we are propagating this

Krsna consciousness, we ask people to, not to eat meat,any kind.

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes.

Prabhupada: But if, under certain circumstances, you areobliged to eat meat, eat the flesh of some lower animals.Don't kill cows. It is the greatest sin. And so long one willbe sinful, he'll not be able to understand what is God. Buthuman being, main business is to understand God and to

love Him. But if he remains sinful, neither he canunderstand God, and what to, what is the question ofloving Him. Therefore at least from the human society,this cruel maintenance of slaughterhouses must bestopped.



Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. I think that this is perhapsnot an essential point. I think that in this realm the usesof various religions can be good. The importance is tolove God.

Prabhupada: Yes.


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Yogesvara: Is it clear? (translates)

Cardinal Danielou: Oui. But I think there is, at first, agreat duty to help men and women and children to live

and actually it is the first duty. It is more important tohelp men and women to life. The life of beast is of minorimportance than the life of men.

Prabhupada: From that point of view, you can kill loweranimals. Why should you kill mother?

Cardinal Danielou: Oui, oui. Mother. Man, as human beingis not the same that...

Prabhupada: And it is not moral. Even if you kill animalsfor maintaining your..., allowing that, there are manyother, hundreds and thousands of animals. So if you at allrequire, people eat also hogs, sometimes, in wartime,they ate dogs also. And there are persons, they regularlyeat dogs in Korea. They eat dogs regularly. So evenanimal killing is necessary for...

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, yes, it is...

Prabhupada: ...for eating, then at least the mother animalshould not be killed. That is from moral point of view.

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, from moral point of view...

Prabhupada: So our point of view is that we don't allowkilling any animal. Our Krsna says: patram puspamphalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bg. 9.26].Krsna says vegetable, fruits, milk, grains, all these thingsshould be offered to Me with devotion. And you should

take the remnants of the foodstuff. So we takeprasadam. And Krsna says: "Give Me foodstuff preparedfrom this group." That we do. Accepting that the fruits,they have got life. But fruits are by nature... There aremany fruits. It is offered by the tree for eating. The tree'snot killed. So we accept this philosophy also that a, oneanimal, one living entity is meant for being food for


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another living entity. Jivo jivasya jivanam. That we alsoaccept, but that does not mean one living entity is thefood for another living entity, that does not mean I cankill my mother, my child... That is not, sir. So at least thismust be taken into consideration that cows, innocent,they give us milk, we take its milk, and we kill in regularslaughterhouse, this is not very good thing. It is sinful.

Cardinal Danielou: Yes. I understand that.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thank you very much.

Cardinal Danielou: (indistinct)

Yogesvara: Does the fact that Christianity, does the factthat Christianity sanctions eating of meat mean that fromthe Christian viewpoint, lower species of life do not havea soul like human beings.

Cardinal Danielou: Dites en francais.



Yogesvara: (French)

Cardinal Danielou: Oui.

Yogesvara: He says: "No, that yes, this is the philosophy,that, that below the human level, the soul does notinhabit the body of other species."

Cardinal Danielou: The soul, the soul, the soul is, is

human soul. In the animal you have some psychologicexistence, but not life of spirit with freedom, with mindand with the reality of spirit. But you have the same ideabecause you said that there is a difference of naturebetween spiritual creation and the material world. Youknow, the material world is not of the same essence thanthe spiritual world. And the man, the man is a part of


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spiritual world.

Prabhupada: No. Our Bhagavad-gita says: sarva-yonisu."In all species of life, as many forms are there, so the

spirit soul is there." This outward body is just like a dress.You may have a very costly dress, and I may have a veryshabby, poor dress, but both of us are human being, orliving entities. Similarly these different forms of livingentities, they are just like different types of dress.Vasamsi jirnani yatha vihaya [Bg. 2.22]. Just like you arein black dress. I am in saffron dress...

Cardinal Danielou: Yellow, yes.

Prabhupada: So this is external. But within the dress youare a human being, I am also human being. Similarly,there are eight million four hundred thousands ofdresses. There are nine hundred thousand dresses withinthe water, aquatics.


Prabhupada: Similarly, two million kinds of dresses of thetrees, plants, like that. In this way the Vedic literatureshave calculated, there are eight million, four hundredthousand forms of living entity. But they're all livingentities, part and parcel of God. Just like one man has gotten sons. Not all of them equally meritorious. Not all. Onemay be high-court judge. And one may be ordinary clerkin the office. But father, both the high-court judge andthe clerk in the office, father claims both of them as son.

Cardinal Danielou: Yes, yes, I agree.

Prabhupada: For father, there is no such distinction that:"This high-court judge is very important and the clerk inthe office, my son, he's not important." So if theenlightened son, high-court judge, says to the father: "Mydear father, your, this son, is useless. Let me cut him andeat." Will the father allow?


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Yogesvara: (asks in French if this is clear)

Cardinal Danielou: Non.


Prabhupada: Apart from this consideration, at least thismorality should be observed that cows, they're ourmother. We should not kill at least mothers for eating theflesh.

Cardinal Danielou: The difficulty for us is not the idea thatit is good for us to respect the life of a cow. The difficultyis the metaphysic reason. You know.

Prabhupada: No, metaphysics, not...

Cardinal Danielou: It is, it is, it is the idea that all life isparcel of the life of God. You know of this is to us, difficultto admit. We can, there is a very great differencebetween the life of man who is really called to partakethe life of God, and the animal life, who is (French)

Yogesvara: Temporary.

Cardinal Danielou: No. Without, without, impermanent.Life of man is permanent.

Prabhupada: That, that, that difference is due todevelopment of consciousness. The human body, humanbody, you get developed consciousness. Just like thistree. It is also a living entity, but it's consciousness is notyet fructified. If you cut the tree, it does not resist. But itresists in a very small degree. That is proved by the

scientists. The Sir Jagadisha Candra Bose, in Calcutta,he's also a very great scientist. He has made machine:when you cut the tree, it feels and it is recorded in themachine.



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Prabhupada: And for the animals we can see, when onekills the animals, it resists, it cries, it makes great sound,horrible. So it is the question of development ofconsciousness. But the, a soul is there.

Cardinal Danielou: But, why, why, why God make someanimals who eat other animals? There is a fault in thecreation because... It is a fault in the creation?

Prabhupada: No. The God is very kind. If you want to eatanimals, then He'll give facility, good facility. Just liketiger. You become tiger, and eat animals. Those who areanimal eaters, unrestrictedly, God will give him the bodyof a tiger next life so that he can very freely eat. "Whyyou maintain slaughterhouse? I give you nails and jaws.

Just eat." So they are waiting that life.

Yogesvara: Is it clear?



Cardinal Danielou: Well, (French). I am very joyful to, to

speak, to speak with you. And I offer, if I can, tomorrowgo to the, to visit the Temple. Yes, yes. I hope I cantomorrow.

Yogesvara: (French) (end)

>>> Ref. VedaBase => Room Conversation withCardinal Danielou -- August 9, 1973, Paris

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Cardinal Danielou-Dont Kill