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Br. Jerome Cudden, O.P.
Mormon EvangelizationA Catholic Response To
Copyright © 2006 by the Western Dominican Province. All rights reserved.
Who is this talk designed for?
What are its goals?
Charity for Mormon missionaries, family members,
friends and neighbors
My experience with Mormons
Different ScripturesDifferent Theology
Same Terms, Different Meanings
Modern Day “Tower of Babel”
MormonBackground Information
Mormon Great Apostasy
“In the spring of 1820, a 14-year-old boy named Joseph Smith went into a grove of trees near his
home in Palmyra, New York, and prayed to learn which church he should join. In answer to his prayer, God the Father and His Son, Jesus Christ, appeared
to him, just as heavenly beings had appeared to prophets like Moses and Paul in biblical times.
Joseph learned that the Church originally organized by Jesus Christ was no longer on the earth.”
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,956-1,00.html
Mormon Restoration
“Joseph Smith was chosen by God to restore the Church of Jesus Christ to the earth.
During the next 10 years, Joseph was visited by other heavenly messengers, translated the Book of Mormon, and received authority to
organize the Church. The Church was organized in Fayette, New York, on 6 April
1830, under the leadership of Joseph Smith.”
http://www.mormon.org/learn/0,8672,956-1,00.html
Effects of the Mormon Apostasy and Restoration
Because of the Apostasy and Restoration
Different ScripturesDifferent Theology
Same Terms, Different Meanings
Modern Day “Tower of Babel”
A Catholic Response toMormonism Evangelization
Four Step Plan
Step One
Focus the discussion on the Great Apostasy
“The significance and importance of the ‘great apostasy’, as a condition precedent to the re-
establishment of the Church in modern times, is obvious. If the alleged apostasy of the primitive Church was not a reality, The Church of Jesus
Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims.”
Why?
James E. Talmage, The Great Apostasy, Preface
The thesis of my presentation is
“If the alleged apostasy of the primitive Church was not a reality, The Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not the divine institution its name proclaims.”
No Apostasy = No Mormonism
James E. Talmage, The Great Apostasy, Preface
You may ask, “What is the Great Apostasy?”
Apostasy - a renunciation or abandonment of a former loyalty (as to a religion).
In search of…
Our search for the Great Apostasy will include
How to focus the discussion
“My understanding is…. Can we agree to talk about the
Great Apostasy?”
No agreement, no dialog!
Summary
Step One
Focus the discussion on the Great Apostasy
Benefits of Step One
Clearly defined objective
Eliminates part of the Tower of Babel
Step Two
Remove Mormon literature and teachings (Mormonism) from the
discussion
Explore the Question
Was there a Great Apostasy?
Was there a Great Apostasy?
Ask, “Does this make sense?”, “Right?”, etc.
No Mormon Church
No Book of Mormon
Great Apostasy?
Restoration NeededYes
No No Restoration
No Joseph SmithNo Restoration
No Joseph Smith
No Book of Mormon
Final check in: “Does this make sense?”
If yes, then you are ready to move on
If no, start over again
Until the Great Apostasy can be proven, Mormon literature and teachings cannot be used to prove
the Great Apostasy
What follows from this?
Was there a Great Apostasy?
No Mormon Church
No Book of Mormon
Great Apostasy?
Restoration NeededYes
No No Restoration
No Joseph SmithNo Restoration
No Joseph Smith
No Book of Mormon
No Mormon Church
No Book of Mormon
Great Apostasy?
Restoration NeededYes
No No Restoration
No Joseph SmithNo Restoration
No Joseph Smith
No Book of Mormon
Suspect
Backwards Thinking
Get the Mormon to agree that Mormon literature and teachings are not relevant to the discussion and will be left out of the discussion
from now on
Mormon Reactions
Challenge – Go over the chart again
Agreement (sometimes skeptical)
Tirade
Summary
Step TwoRemove Mormon Literature from the discussion
Summary
Step Two Remove Mormon Literature from the discussion
Do not allow Mormon literature back into the discussion
Benefits of Step Two
You do not need to have knowledge of Mormon literature or beliefs
Eliminates another aspect of the Tower of Babel by eliminating Mormonism from the discussion
Step Three
Remove Sacred Scripture From the Discussion
Three Causes of the Great Apostasy
1 - Death of the Apostles2 - Biblical Prophecies
3 - Problems with the Faithful
Cause # 1 The death of the apostles caused the Great Apostasy
What does the New Testament tell us about the lives and deaths
of the Apostles?
Judas dies (Matthew 27) - 11 Apostles
Jesus calls 12 Apostles (Matthew 10)
Matthias called (Acts 1) - 12 Apostles
Paul called (Acts 9) - 13 Apostles
James martyred (Acts 12) - 12 Apostles
Conclusion #1
Twelve Apostles are alive according to the New Testament
Scripture does not provide any evidence of a Great Apostasy resulting from the death of
the Apostles!
Cause #2 Biblical Prophecies
Mormons appeal to Old Testament prophecies about a “Great Apostasy”
Isaiah 24:3-5
Where is it fulfilled?
The earth shall be utterly laid waste and utterly despoiled; for the LORD has spoken this word.
The earth mourns and withers, the world languishes and withers; the heavens languish together with the earth. The earth lies polluted under its inhabitants;
for they have transgressed the laws, violated the statutes, broken the everlasting covenant.
Example of Scriptural Fulfillment
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself will give you this sign: the virgin shall be with child, and bear a son, and shall
name him Emmanuel.
Matthew 1:22-23
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel,
which being interpreted is, God with us.
Mormons also appeal to New Testament prophecies about a “Great Apostasy”
Ask for Scriptural Fulfillment
2 Timothy 4:3-4
Where is it fulfilled?
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.
The Book of Revelation is full of prophecies that have not been fulfilled
Prophecies are statements about future events. They are not proof of anything happening.
Where in the Scriptures are the prophecies fulfilled?
Conclusion #2
There is no Biblical evidence of the Great Apostasy actually happening
Cause #3Problems with the Faithful
False Teachings / Teachers
From which [the faith] some, having swerved, have turned aside into vain discussion; desiring to be teachers of the
Law; understanding neither what they say, nor what they affirm.1 Timothy 1:6-7 (Past tense)
For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate
for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.
2 Timothy 4:3-4 (Future tense)
Immorality
Google Search
2 + 2 = 4
What did the Christians do that was so bad?
Falling Away From the Faith
Conclusion # 3
Problems with the faithful did not cause the Great Apostasy
Is there Scriptural evidence of the Great Apostasy actually happening?
There is NO Scriptural evidence of the Great Apostasy actually happening!
Summary - Step ThreeRemove Sacred Scripture
from the Discussion
Summary - Step ThreeRemove Sacred Scripture
from the Discussion
Do not allow Sacred Scriptureback into the discussion
Benefits of Step Three
You do not need to be a Biblical expert
You have eliminated the “Scripture-slinging contest” and personal interpretation
Step Four
Stick to the historicity of the Great Apostasy
2,000 years is a lot of history
Narrow the scope of the search using the Council of
Nicaea as an end point
Mormons sources would lead one to conclude that Great Apostasy happened
at or before the Council of Nicaea, 325 AD
Notwithstanding the numerous New Testament witnesses of the Savior as a resurrected being
following his crucifixion (see, for example, Luke 24:36-48), there still persists the fallacious
doctrine formulated at the Council of Nicea in A.D. 325 that God the Father, his Son, Jesus
Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three personages of spirit—three personages in one.
Spencer J. Condie, “The Fall and Infinite Atonement,” Ensign (Jan 1996): 22.
Gordon B. Hinckley, “What Are People Asking about Us?” Ensign (Nov 1998) 70.
“We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost”
(A of F 1:1). This first article of faith epitomizes our doctrine. We do not accept the
Athanasian Creed. We do not accept the Nicene Creed, nor any other creed based on tradition
and the conclusions of men.
The Great Apostasy must have occurred on or before 325
So anything after 325 is irrelevant:The Crusades (1000)
The Western Schism (1400)
The Spanish Inquisition (1400)
The Protestant Reformation (1500)
The Priest Scandal (2000)
Apostolic SuccessionPeter (33-67)Linus (67-76)Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)Clement I (88-97)Evaristus (97-105)Alexander I (105-115)Sixtus I (115-125)Telesphorus (125-136)Hyginus (136-140)Pius I (140-155)Anicetus (155-166)Soter (166-175)Eleutherius (175-189)Victor I (189-199)Zephyrinus (199-217)Callitstus I (217-222)
Urban I (222-30)Pontain (230-35)Anterus (235-36)Fabian (236-50)Cornelius (251-53)Lucius I (253-54)Stephen I (254-257)Sixtus II (257-258)Dionysius (260-268)Felix I (269-274)Eutychian (275-283)Caius (283-296) Marcellinus (296-304)Marcellus I (308-309)Eusebius (309 or 310)Militiades (311-14)Sylvester I (314-35)
Where does it break down?Peter (33-67)Linus (67-76)Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)Clement I (88-97)Evaristus (97-105)Alexander I (105-115)Sixtus I (115-125)Telesphorus (125-136)Hyginus (136-140)Pius I (140-155)Anicetus (155-166)Soter (166-175)Eleutherius (175-189)Victor I (189-199)Zephyrinus (199-217)Callitstus I (217-222)
Urban I (222-30)Pontain (230-35)Anterus (235-36)Fabian (236-50)Cornelius (251-53)Lucius I (253-54)Stephen I (254-257)Sixtus II (257-258)Dionysius (260-268)Felix I (269-274)Eutychian (275-283)Caius (283-296) Marcellinus (296-304)Marcellus I (308-309)Eusebius (309 or 310)Militiades (311-14)Sylvester I (314-35)
Mormonism is not the rule of thumb
Backwards
Thinking
Lost or invented? Vice Versa.
Infant Baptism
Mormons believe
Early Church believes
No Mormon Church
No Book of Mormon
Great Apostasy
Restoration NeededYes
No No Restoration
No Joseph SmithNo Restoration
No Joseph Smith
No Book of Mormon
Suspect
Backwards Thinking
Where is “The Smoking Gun?”
• Where are the historical records that ask:– Where are the apostles?
– Where are our prophets?
• “The writings were destroyed!”
We have the writings of Gnosticism, Ophitism, Adoptionism, Sabellianism, Monarchism, Montanism, Arianism, etc.
Questions about historical “proof”
How does this prove the Great Apostasy?
What is the source?
Summary
Step FourStick to the historicity of the
Great Apostasy
Benefits of Step Four
Levels the “playing field”
Tower of Babel is almost completely eliminated and now true dialog may occur
Clears the ecclesiastical “smoke”
Odds and Ends
Why do Mormons accept the Bible?
• Scriptures written btwn 40 and 110
• Council of Nicea 325
• Councils of Hippo 393 and Carthage 397
• King James Bible 1611 and 1885
Can you prove the Trinity?
Theological Belief vs. Historical Event
Can you prove the Resurrection?
Extra-Biblical historical evidence for the life and events of Jesus
Christ’s life, and the “movement” he left behind
Appeal to Catholic Teachings
If there was a Great Apostasy, then the Mormon Church may be the true church
of Jesus Christ. This would mean that the Roman Catholic pope is a false leader and
the Roman Catholic Church is not the divine institution it claims to be.
The Great Apostasy was a process and not an event
Example - building of a house.
The Mormon “Golden Parachute”
Sharing of his/her testimony
9/11/2001
I believe the Mormon believes his/her testimony is true.
I, however, do not believe what s/he is testifying to is true.
Should I read the Book of Mormon?
Accusations of Anti-Mormonism
I have not said anything negative about:• Joseph Smith
• Book of Mormon
• Mormon Church and her teachings
Why is it important to dialog with Mormons?
Mormons are not Christians
~ 60,000 Missionaries Worldwide
Mormons do not have the sacraments
Pop Quiz - 4 Step Plan
1. Focus discussion on the Great Apostasy
2. Remove Mormon Literature
3. Remove Sacred Scripture
4. Stick to the historicity of the Great Apostasy
BE CAREFUL !!!
You are dealing with friends and neighbors
Your job may be just to plant a seed
Jesus is the Savior of the world
Br. Jerome Cudden, [email protected]
St Albert Priory5890 Birch Court
Oakland, CA 94618
Contact Information
A Catholic Response To
Br. Jerome Cudden, O.P.
Mormon Evangelization
