AOA - Michelle Tillis Lederman - lauracoe.com · AOA Transcript I said to the newly appointed CEO, I can do this and he said okay, you still have to do a hedge fund investing and

AOA Transcript

EPISODE — MICHELLE TILLIS LEDERMAN\

[INTRODUCTION]

[0:00:18.0] LC: Welcome to this week’s episode of the Art of Authenticity, I’m Laura Coe your

host and once again thank you all for joining us today. Today we have Michelle Tillis Lederman. She is named one of Forbes top 25 networking experts, is the author of three books including

The 11 Laws Of Likability and her latest, Nail The Interview, Land The Job.

Michelle is the CEO of Executive Essentials which provides custom communication leadership training and coaching programs. She has appeared on NBC, CBS, FOX, Skill King and PR Wall

Street Journal, New York Times, Working Mother, US News and World Report, US Today – I could keep going but I think I’ll take up the whole interview with listing her media. We’re very

happy to have her join us on the Art of Authenticity.

We walk through two of the 11 Laws Of Likability and believe it or not, the very first law is all around authenticity. Can’t get anybody, the relationships that you want to establish, the likability

that you’re looking for in your life where people respond well to you.

If you’re not showing up in your authentic self. Of course, I love that, I think you’ll love it, she has very clear practical ways of thinking about authenticity in terms of likability and then we touched

on this question of interviewing, chuck filled with detailed information today. Hope you like today’s show.

If you like what you hear, as always, we would appreciate it if you hopped over to iTunes, left a

review, every little bit counts. Thanks again for listening.

[INTERVIEW]

[0:02:06.9] LC: Welcome to this week’s episode of the Art of Authenticity. I’m Laura Coe your host, once again, thank you guys all for tuning in today, we have Michelle Tillis Lederman joining

us. Hey Michelle, how are you?

© 2017 Art of Authenticity �1

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[0:02:19.9] MTL: I’m good Laura, how are you?

[0:02:21.4] LC: I am fantastic and I am excited, today is an episode that is going to be packed

with really practical and accessible tips and tricks for anybody out there that is less interested in the soul searching questions that we sometimes bring up on this show and want to get into how

do I just make it work?

How do I get some of the things, going on in my life so that I can get the outcomes. Michelle specifically focuses on 11 laws of likability, she’s got a new book she’s working on now, the

interview, the job that you love and I’m excited. There’s just so much great stuff to work, talk about and bring out. Michelle, before we do, would you mind taking us through a little bit of what

got you interested in specifically these topics and what you were doing before that sort of drove you to focus on this specifically?

[0:03:13.4] MTL: I have a very convoluted story although, I’m going to bet that a lot of people

out there have a similar one or want to create a similar one. I want you to know what’s possible. I am actually a recovering CPA.

[0:03:29.7] LC: That’s hysterical, I know what you mean by recovering but you mean, like this

was – you had to get yourself out?

[0:03:34.7] MTL: I’m a CPA in two states for those that don’t know. It technically stands for Certified Professional Accountant or something like that. I don’t even know, I always say

certified pain in the assets. That’s what my mother said it stood for at least.

I spent the initial part of my career probably for decade at least in finance, I was an auditor, I did mergers and acquisitions. I was the only woman on a trading floor, the only woman on venture

capital team, globally.

I mean, I was heavy finance girl and I’m very good at it, it made sense to me and a lot of times in our life, we follow our skills and not our passions. It wasn’t until I hired a coach to help me

transition – my boss who was the treasurer of the New York branch, became the CEO of the Tokyo branch at the bank and I did everything she did and then some.


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I said to the newly appointed CEO, I can do this and he said okay, you still have to do a hedge fund investing and my budget but you can do this too.

[0:04:36.9] LC: That’s awesome. I love what you just said, I mean, this is sort of the core of the

show and the message I’m trying to get out there all the time that you knew your skills but you didn’t follow your passions. What was the turning point for you? How did you decide to say, you

know, I needed to go more towards passion in life?

Did you have like a break moment? Was it something building up?

[0:05:00.5] MTL: I wrote a blog once and said, I had my midlife crisis in my 20’s.

[0:05:03.7] LC: That’s awesome, they call it a quarter life crisis now.

[0:05:08.3] MTL: I think most people especially the younger generation, I’m not necessarily that generation but they focus a little bit more on the meaning behind. So at a younger age, we start

to do all of that questioning and I was doing it in my 20’s and you know, for me, the turning point was finding my calling. I really felt it was like this is what I was built to do and I believed in those

passion about it and I was good at it.

I needed both of those things. The challenge I always had, I’m running six grade wanting to be a teacher and then I learned how much they made and I said “No, thank you.” Because I also

grew up without financial stability and it was something that was very important to me and so it did take time for that transition to happen.

I found that calling and I started to understand, doing the work in 2001. I did not incorporate my

business until 2004 and I did not fully leave finance and my finance salary until 2005. Understand that it’s a process of evolution that you can be at a job and be working towards that

next step.


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[0:06:15.1] LC: I love that you’re saying that because people call me and they want coaching

and they’re like, can I – you seem to find out what I want, how long is this going to take, right? Like a month? Two months?

I’m thinking, come on. You’re trying to self-actualize, find your passions. It takes a while, right?

It’s something that you have to have some patience with in finding you know, what really resonates and works for you and there’s a little bit of trial and error.

[0:06:38.2] MTL: Yeah, you know, there’s some activities I’ve given people and I always say,

“Listen, I can’t tell you what you want to do with your life, it took me this long to figure out what I want to do with my life!”

[0:06:47.5] LC: Right. But there is a process involved in it and you know, coaches can really

help move that along but it’s also a life’s journey, right? I don’t think you ever land there which was surprising to me. It’s sort of like, you find your passion, you’re all set but you know, once

you find your passion, you have to navigate within it a lot and keep tweaking, making it exciting and interesting as you go.

[0:07:11.2] MTL: I think you’re spot on and I think what’s important to know is these people are

thinking about making this transitions is that even when you find your passion, it’s not all sunshine and roses. I’m an entrepreneur and there’s a lot of pieces of being an entrepreneur

that I don’t necessarily love but I still love what I do.

[0:07:30.5] LC: Right, such, again an important distinction because I love this podcast, I can’t say I love like all the little nitty gritty details to getting each episode live but that’s – I still love

what I do, right? Yeah, I think that’s very important to think about.

You started to find what you love, it took some time, how did you kind of hone in on this topic and find this idea of likability, where did that come from?

[0:07:59.0] MTL: Honestly it was an answer to a question that I was asked all the time which

was, “Michelle, how did you build your business and how did you get all those name brand clients?” My first client ever was JP Morgan and my second one was Georgia Bank.


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That’s a pretty unique thing now coming out of finance and having relationships and having that kinship with that industry, certainly had a competitive advantage because people who do what I

do, didn’t necessarily have an understanding of what they did.

That said, I have now expanded my client base into just about every industry you could imagine and this book, the 11 Laws Of Likability is my answer to the question of “How did I do it?” This is

my philosophy of life, this is my approach to people and work and this is how I generated my success. I believed that everybody, if they follow these rules will increase their success and their

happiness.

[0:08:55.9] LC: Great, well let’s do it then, let’s walk through, let’s pick you know, some of these rules help the audience make those steps because you know, a lot of people are starting their

businesses, trying to figure out what they love and I’m sure, you know, that they would benefit.

Can you walk us through either your favorites or if you want to go in order, whichever way you like prefer to talk about it?

[0:09:19.4] MTL: It’s funny. People always ask me, what’s the most important law in the book

and I always say, I can’t pick just one and I can pick two. Let me give you kind of an overview of the book, obviously we can’t go through 11 laws but I do give a free chapter away and we can

give that link to your audience at the end.

The book is structured basically, what to do before a conversation, how to navigate the actual conversation and what to do after that conversation to convert that interaction into a connection

and a long term relationship.

In thinking about the before, during and after, the two laws that I think are most critical, what happens before and what happens after. A lot of times the crux isn’t necessarily in the

conversation and you’ll love one of the ones I’m going to say because it’s the name of your podcast, the law of authenticity.


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[0:10:04.9] LC: That’s right, I saw that. How did that sort of get on the list? What does that

mean?

[0:10:10.4] MTL: It’s funny, it’s actually chapter one of the book and originally, it was the last chapter and as I was getting feedback and I was telling people about the book, they said,

“Michelle, you keep talking about this authenticity as being the thread and the foundation, it must go through all the other laws. Why is it at the end shouldn’t it be the beginning? It’s the

foundation.” I was like, “Yeah.”

[0:10:30.0] LC: Interesting. I love it. I think it’s the crux but I love hearing that you’re finding that too.

[0:10:36.3] MTL: Well, I always knew it was the crux but it was more about giving them that

platform at the beginning and that’s authenticity. It’s a platform, it’s a touchstone, it’s that, you know, that keeps us grounded and connected to that mission, to that passion. That’s what

authenticity is and as I was sharing with you before we started the recording, I’m actually doing a new talk called Boost Your Likability.

The reason why authenticity is so important is because, you cannot connect to somebody and

you cannot build a real relationship unless you are bringing your real self and so I came up with the definition of authenticity. I also love to hear what other people’s definitions are?

Can I put you on the spot and say, Laura, what’s your definition of authenticity?

[0:11:17.8] LC: Absolutely. I mean, you know, I’ll never pass on that question. Yeah. For me,

being authentic is the process of taking the time, finding the space to connect to the deeper self, the self, that’s behind the thoughts, right? The kind of self, that’s in that moment of maybe

meditation or if you’re looking at a sunset, like that quiet, calm space.

Connecting into that place and then using your mind, your thoughts, to articulate what your truth and your deepest self is really expressing through you. The more often that you can keep that

process going where you connect to that deeper space, give room to it, you use your mind to –


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as the tool to communicate that to the world. I think that allows you to stay authentic and by that,

I mean, in your truth.

[0:12:17.1] MTL: It’s interesting, you have a very spiritual definition.

[0:12:22.1] LC: It’s spiritual but it’s spiritual taken into the practical, right? Because I don’t – it’s just like, hanging out on that space on a mountain top. It’s connecting out to the world but the

reason I think it’s so important to keep doing the process is because the world is so busy and loud and confusing that you can find yourself so mixed up and all the externalities happening

that you lose your footing as to what actually resonates with you and how it works for you and how it feels to you.

I think it’s important to iterate, to keep going around and round through that process.

[0:12:55.9] MTL: Yeah, I love that the iteration of it, when I originally wrote the book, my

definition of the law of authenticity was, the real you is the best you. I still believe that and I think it aligns with your definition as well as, you talk about your truths.

What was interesting was, I had people reach out to me saying, “Well I’m a jerk.”

[0:13:18.3] LC: Isn’t that funny?

[0:13:21.0] MTL: I have actually expanded my definition and we’ll talk a little bit about how we

do it. I believe that fundamentally, the real you is the best you. It is about understanding what we bring to the table as well as understanding that we’re continuously evolving and not just

accepting all of the bad stuff but not punishing ourselves for it.

I’m still – it’s a working definition but authenticity is for me, showing up open and infusing into your interactions, the attributes of yourself that you value the most.

[0:13:54.9] LC: Say that one more time for everybody.


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[0:13:57.5] MTL: There’s one more and. I’ll give you the full one this time. Showing up open and

infusing into your interactions, the attributes of yourself that you value most. What your definition, your authenticity, is really within yourself and I talk about bringing your authenticity to

somebody else.

And, there’s one thing, there’s one addition to this definition and accepting and flexing your what I call unique charms. That’s that part of ourselves that may not be what we value but it’s just part

of who we are. We may not love it but we’re not really going to overly change it but we can do for example, here’s one of my unique charms.

I can be loud, I can be intense, I can be a talker, I can get team on. I got a laundry list of my

unique charms and the truth is, I’m not going to eliminate these things from my personality but what I can do is pay attention to how somebody else is receiving me and adjust a little. I can be

a little less loud, a little less talkative. I’m not going to be accused of being quiet.

[0:14:59.8] LC: Yeah, absolutely, this is what I meant by truth, I kind of like glazed over because again, I think this topic is so complicated when you really start reading and thinking about it.

That’s right. I think that what I’m hearing you say is, there’s this true self, right? Who has those qualities.

I think those come from birth and that you know, we may want to manage them in the world, in

the right places in the right ways so that we get the outcomes we’re looking for. But not to reject them or deny them as who you are or you know, judge them.

[0:15:32.8] MTL: That’s a great way to say it. I was just thinking, don’t feel bad about them but I

like what you said. Don’t judge yourself for them. I’m not a bad person because I can interrupt somebody and talk too much.

[0:15:43.2] LC: Exactly. You’re just probably like that when you’re a little kid and then you know,

culture and society push you and push you to conform. But sometimes we lose these qualities of ourselves that we just want to maybe manage, right?


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[0:15:55.5] MTL: I sometimes, yeah, I sometimes call it, I have uncontrolled exuberance that

I’m trying to control it.

[0:16:00.9] LC: Absolutely, right? We all have them, I have a need to problem solve at all times and truthfully, people around me are like, “Can we not have something that we need to work on

for 10 minutes, right? It’s annoying.”

Knowing those are your core attributes or qualities, then you can decide, it’s like if this is your Ferrari, you can decide how fast you want to drive it and when you want to take it out, right?

Does it make sense to take into Ferrari and slam the accelerator on a little side street, right? Not really.

You can think about when you want to use these different attributes that make you, you.

[0:16:37.1] MTL: Yes, I want to be careful with that because sometimes if we are, it’s the

difference between flexing and squashing. I just want people to find that right balance for themselves of not denying who they are and bringing their full self to their interactions but

understanding that we all need some tweaks.

[0:16:56.7] LC: That’s right. Because each moment requires different parts of ourselves but again, no judgment, right? Not right or wrong, just accommodating to the realities of the real

world.

I love that, that’s your law that you think is critical if you’re not in touch with that part then the likability factor becomes more difficult, is that right?

[0:17:18.2] MTL: If you don’t like yourself, how can you expect anybody else to like you?

[0:17:22.7] LC: Well put, exactly, that’s right. I think – do you think people have an instinct about

this that as much as you might try to cover that disconnect from your real self, that lack of liking your real self, people can instinctually tell?


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[0:17:36.8] MTL: I think we have a success and the truth is, you can be authentic with certain

people and not authentic with others and that’s something that you need to be aware of, is who and when and what situations are you bringing your authentic self. How does it inhibit you in

other situations and other relationships.

Are those relationships not growing because you’re not willing to trust or take risk in showing more of yourself?

[0:18:01.3] LC: Interesting, that’s right. How are you getting in your own way and how do you

move past those things?

[0:18:07.4] MTL: Exactly.

[0:18:08.9] LC: Interesting. You said there’s three steps, this is the before, this is the law, you have to get to know yourself.

[0:18:17.0] MTL: There’s 11, there’s four before, during and three after. This is chapter one of

the book and this is what I think is critical to likability, to connection, to relationships and to success.

[0:18:31.2] LC: Yes. This is the getting started, you can’t begin. What do you say to somebody

who is like, wow, that’s a hard first step. Do you think this step has to be fully checked off before you can move on, or is it something that it’s like a work in progress?

[0:18:48.2] MTL: I don’t think the concepts in the book are linear, it’s not that you have to go in

a particular order, I think you have to move between them. I was laughing to myself when you said. What do I do if this is a hard one. Actually say, go to chapter two, that’s the law of self-

image.

Laughing to myself on that one but the authenticity in ourselves is ever evolving. How I view myself, my three words, my personal brand, it evolves and authenticity evolves. It’s not that we

can check off authenticity, we have to check in with authenticity in each of our interactions.


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[0:19:25.4] LC: That’s right. I love that. That’s right, I love it. Well, I think that’s a beautiful place

for people to start and do you offer like a practical way to approach this step?

[0:19:39.2] MTL: I actually do. I have a concept in the book where I talk about most of the things that we do in life can be classified into four categories. Get to, want to, should do and

have to. I’ll say that again

I’ll say that again, get to, want to, should do or have to. When we’re thinking about, especially in our professional environment, “I get to work on that project or I’m so excited, like this is an

honor, this is a privilege, I’m jumping for joy, I get to do this.”

I want to, could be a little bit more of a stretch. “I want to run that marathon, I want to apply for that program, I want to, it doesn’t mean it’s easy and I’m overexcited but I really want to and I

have my opinions.”

Those are really easy to be authentic because we’re already connected. The should do is the challenge of life and I was actually on a call with my client this morning and she said, “I should

be able to do this myself.”

Clearly never heard my speech about this. She just laughed and my husband catches me out on it all the time. He goes, “Did you just say should?” I would just growl at him with my breath

because we do this to ourselves all the time. “I should. I should. I should.”

[0:20:59.5] LC: It’s terrible.

[0:21:02.2] MTL: My feeling about should is, no you shouldn’t. If that’s how you feel about it. If you cannot reframe what you should be doing into something that you want to do or something

that you get to do, then maybe you shouldn’t be doing it.

[0:21:15.9] LC: Absolutely. I feel strongly about this one too but I just want to follow up with that and just ask you why? I have talked to a lot of people on this topic and a lot of people’s first

reaction to that one is, “Yeah, but come on, in the real world, there’s just a bunch of things that you got to do, you should do it.”


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[0:21:37.0] MTL: Okay, well then, we’re in the have to category. I want people to differentiate between a should and a have to and that’s part of your challenge is we do absolutely have have

to’s in our lives.

[0:21:50.0] LC: Yeah.

[0:21:50.8] MTL: When we have, have to, we can’t delete them, we can’t not do them. The only thing that we can do to increase the ability to be authentic in those situations, is to reframe

them.

[0:22:00.2] LC: And what do you mean by reframe them?

[0:22:02.2] MTL: Is to look at those things in a different light. So instead of “I have to go to this networking event. I have to go to this company thing. I have to go to this conference. I have to

it’s required.” What can we – so there is different ways to reframe. Find the good, finding the good is around what is the good part of this, “I get to go to Florida for this conference,” or you

know, “Hey I am going to see my friends” or “Oh they are giving free alcohol.”

You know where is the good in the situation that feels like I have to? Can we find the good and focus on the good? Can we evoke real emotion? So invoking real emotion I’ll tell you a quick

story. I was with a client at a university and it was a new client. I was trying to land it and I am having this great conversation. There is all this energy, we were feeling great and all of sudden I

see the body language shift. We were coming to the end of the meeting and she just looks annoyed and tense and I am thinking, “What did I do?” and so I asked her.

Like, “Is everything okay?” and she said, “Oh god it’s not you. It’s the student coming in right

after you. I can’t stand them.” I was like, “Oh okay, I’m glad it was not me. Why don’t you like the student?” And she was saying, “Oh she drowned all my ideas and they’re just so negative,”

blah-blah-blah and I said, “Can I try something with you?” and she said, “Sure” I said, “Will you tell me the student you loved?” And she starts talking about this other guy who comes in.


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And she was really able to help and they’re open and I realized what it was. She was able to

help one and not able to help the other. I said, “Try this for me. I want you to keep thinking about that student that you loved when they come and how excited and how energized and how

motivated you are in the moment that they walk in that door. I want you to greet the person who is coming in, as if it was that person that you cannot wait for.”

Because we feel that energy, we start to create this self-fulfilling prophecy. We start to put our

feelings on them and so we bring and they give and it just amplifies. So she said, “Okay I can try that.” I leave the office. I’m home, I slide my back at the home office but two hours later the

phone rings and this is before the time of caller ID and I answer the phone and all I hear was, “Oh my god Michelle that worked!” And without caller ID I was like, “Who the hell is this?”

[0:24:31.2] LC: How did somebody get my phone number and just saying this weird stuff to me.

That’s right because the energy that you bring into the room shifts the energy of the other person and from there you can get a completely different experience.

[0:24:41.8] MTL: And so reframing and invoking that real emotion moves this dread to this

possibility by having that real feeling inside. You can give it out and it starts to build momentum a ball from there. I mean there’s a whole lot of other ideas and ways to reframe but those are

just some examples of how we can reframe or have to. So now when the people say, “Hey come on, we have to.” Well let’s look at the have to’s and how we can reframe them.

If it’s truly a should then sometimes like for example, “I really should go to this networking

event.” I hear this all the time.

[0:25:18.3] LC: Okay I’m guilty. I feel that way about networking events.

[0:25:22.0] MTL: Okay, you know what? I am an extrovert and sometimes I do as well.

[0:25:25.0] LC: I’m extrovert too and I find networking events just drain every – I feel like I have to go home and sleep for a week.


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[0:25:31.3] MTL: I’m so with you. So what I tell people is I want you to stretch yourself. I don’t

want authenticity being excuse to stay in your comfort zone and just because you might not like the networking event or because you might be a little more introverted because they are not

your favorite thing that you always can say, “It is a should so I am not going to.”

I still want you to stretch yourself but I want you to say, “You know what? Tonight is not my night. I don’t have the energy. It’s not going to be productive. I would rather regain my energy and go

to this next one and I am going to commit to that one.” So it is about making choices and continuing to stretch yourself but not putting yourself into a situation where you know you’ll be

unsuccessful.

[0:26:10.7] LC: Yeah I can’t agree with this more. I find this reframing, I do it all the time as an entrepreneur and now you know, with rating and podcasting it’s all the same. If I say to myself, “I

should go write. I haven’t written. I’ve got to get this done” right? It’s just miserable but if I say, “I have the opportunity today to go to a café hang out,” what an incredible gift to be able to do that.

Hopefully something will get written. I don’t know we’ll see right?

And just that little shift and it’s like I come with a better energy and usually find myself more productive because that first mindset it is just a killer. I mean if you are in that space, yeah just

go get some Netflix and binge because you are probably just tired.

[0:27:01.5] MTL: Yeah and if people are feeling that one, I will direct them to chapter four which is the law of energy and we talk about how to find productive energy for a situation and what our

typical energy responses are.

[0:27:11.4] LC: I love it. Well so okay, you said there was the one law that you thought was critical. That there is the three sections in the book where there is 11 laws all together but what

is the second law that you feel –

[0:27:22.5] MTL: Is critical, yes. So I said there is one at the beginning and one at the end and the other one is actually the chapter that I give away for free and it’s the law of giving and this

for me is the other most fundamental thing in connection and in authentic connection. The law of giving, the chapter was originally titled the law of reciprocity. I was talking about how when you


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give, people want to give in return and you know what as I was struggling else you know what? I

don’t care about the giving in return.

That was not what I am trying to promote here. I want people to give and give first and give often because they want to give because they can and without expectation, of something in

return. That’s when I realized what the chapter is really about which was simply giving and when people give without that expectation, without the “I’ll do this for you if you do that,” without that

bargain. It does certainly spark that desire to give back but it doesn’t necessarily have to be to the person who gave to you.

And that’s what I love about giving and we all take this philosophy of giving everybody’s results

increased. I have story upon story upon story that prove this to be true.

[0:28:34.0] LC: And that is such a great new ounce right of networking, establishing your network. It is such a hot topic everybody is doing it so much more now. The internet with social

media right? There is so many ways to make connections but this idea of giving without the interest of reciprocity upfront, you feel as if that cleans out, it opens you up to giving in a more

authentic and real way and therefore, you don’t mean to but you’re going to get the result that you want even more effectively right? It is giving because you can instead of giving because

need.

[0:29:14.2] MTL: I think when you give, it enables you to be more comfortable making an ask because you know that you come from a philosophy of giving and you give where you can and

you give what you can and it is okay to also receive. I always say “Give, give, give but don’t forget to ask.”

[0:29:34.1] LC: Yeah and what do you think I mean there is a current philosophy going around

right now give three times and then ask. I find that really –

[0:29:43.3] MTL: It’s too formulaic, it’s not about a formula.

[0:29:47.1] LC: Yes, exactly because I am in a place in my life, I’m 46 I’ve had a reasonably big career and so I have things to offer. I’d rather just have somebody come and ask than give a


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thing or two and then ask because it is transparent. You can see that they did that which then

makes me less interested in giving, right? So don’t you think it’s just important when you need to ask, ask and when you can give, give and to not turn it into some kind of cat and mouse game?

[0:30:16.2] MTL: Exactly, you know I share a story about a woman named Amy and I met her at

a conference. I thought she was awesome, I picked her brain. I asked her if I could take her out to lunch she actually said yes. Two hours she let me just asked her a question upon question

upon question. It was amazing and I had no way to thank her. I had nothing to give back besides a thank you but let me tell you, a thank you can be a really great gift.

Appreciation and recognition and credit and it was many years later that I was working on this

book that I ran into her and we’ve stayed in touch but not BFF’s. I had said that I was just writing about her and she looked very quizzical and I said, “Well it’s because of you that I sat with over

a hundred entrepreneurs,” because I was a wannabe entrepreneur at the time. She had sat with me and so because I couldn’t do anything for her, I instead paid it forward and I sat with a bunch

of other people who wanted to do it.

And she actually got chocked up and you could see like she was moved by it and it was maybe about two years ago I was sharing a story at a speech and I had sat over a 100 people and

something that I said, “I’m one of those people Michelle” and then somebody else said, “Me too” and then somebody else had said that and then half the audience said, “I am one of those

people Michelle.” I said, “I think I want to increase that number.”

[0:31:33.7] LC: That’s awesome and so last question on this but what do you say to the person who is in their 20’s that is thinking, “God I don’t have much to give yet. I haven’t established

myself. I don’t have a lot to offer yet.”

[0:31:46.1] MTL: I won’t curse but cool, is that okay?

[0:31:51.0] LC: Tell me why.

[0:31:53.9] MTL: It isn’t about our age and it isn’t about where we are in success in our life. I’ve only learned that because I had been that person who thought she was like, “What do I have to


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give?” I am actually friendly with a very well-known CEO. He and I are actually getting together

next month and we’ve been connected for over a decade at this point. He is so much more successful than me and the second time we ever met, I asked him some questions about the

new business he was starting.

Because really, I didn’t understand. I was trying to understand and he leans back like he just won the Oprah positions, you know arms behind the head, feet up on the chair he said, “You

know Michelle you gave me a lot to think about,” sometimes curiosity and questioning and interest and appreciation, admiration, all of those things are gifts to somebody else. People do

enjoy being a mentor. You know perhaps you bring a knowledge of technology or social media or something that you can bring.

And actually that’s another, I am friendly with the former CIO of Credit Swiss. He used to have

50,000 people reporting to him. That is how much of a big league this man was and I was hired to do a speech with one of his conferences and he was the host. So we became friendly and we

used to get together and I would teach him how to use LinkedIn.

[0:33:09.5] LC: Right, yep I am friends with a 21 year old, well he is 27 now but we started hanging out when he was 21 and he would say this all the time. I would make him dinners, he

was a young entrepreneur that I just really liked. He was like, “I don’t know how to repay you” but he was what you said just really hit me that’s what it is, he was curious and interested and

brought this freshness into my life because he was a new entrepreneur and so excited and so enthusiastic.

And wanting to understand things so he would probe and probe and it would make me think

about things at a deeper level and articulate things at a deeper level through mentoring him. I found that so exciting and fun and so that was a gift to me. I think that’s a beautiful way of

placing it.

[0:33:53.5] MTL: Well you’ve nailed it and that’s why authenticity and giving are two that if you don’t read the whole book, read those two.


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[0:34:01.9] LC: Well I would say I’ve checked it out, you guys have checked it out if you can tell

by these two, right? They are all packed with incredible nuggets of information that you can use and it just made sense right? These are all things that are incredibly intuitive but you’ve said in a

way that is coherent and clear. So you’ve moved on and you haven’t written it yet but you’re talking about nailing the interview. Why this topic? Why have you shifted specifically to

interviews?

[0:34:28.8] MTL: Actually that book is already out. So I have two other books out, one is just for veterans to help them get back into the workplace and it is a free resource for veterans. They

could go to heroesgethired.com and download it for free and when I have done that for veterans, all of my mommy friends were like, “What about us? Where’s our book?”

So I wrote, Nail the Interview, Land the Job for people who were new graduates. To the

involuntarily unemployed and for the returning parent to the workplace, to help them with those transitions into the workplace.

[0:34:57.9] LC: I’m sorry so I have to apologize too. I had looked it up and I did not get that

book although just in honesty, I checked out the 11 laws but I thought you said before that one wasn’t out? So you threw me for a second there.

[0:35:11.7] MTL: I’m working on my fourth book right now and that is going to be called The

Connectors Club. That is actually a follow up to The 11 Laws of Likability.

[0:35:18.0] LC: Okay, I thought I was going crazy. I’m like, “Okay, there’s you, there’s an actual book why is she saying this? This isn’t out but I am like, I can trust you it’s your book. Okay so I

am like I see you talking about it anywhere, am I losing my mind? So Nail The Interview, Land The Job. I mean it makes sense for me to go from like ability into interviewing, right? These

things are very interconnected and I’ve interviewed thousands of people. But why did you find this topic to be one that you felt you want to write a book about?

[0:35:48.6] MTL: Honestly it was for the veterans. It came out of a desire to help. We had a

million veterans coming from the military to the civilian workplace in a five year time period and you know, we need to support our veterans. I don’t have military in my family and this is the way


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I felt I could be of service. I am the person they are going to be up against and I wanted them to

understand the shifts that they needed to make to be successful in their transition.

[0:36:18.3] LC: I love it and that is such a beautiful reason to put this work out into the world but for anybody right? Because I believe and tell me if you disagree but there really is a formula to

some degree on interviewing. I mean there are a handful of things that you can do to really nail an interview.

[0:36:39.6] MTL: I never thought about it as a formula. Every time you say something as

formula like, I worry about the authenticity piece but what I do – do in the Nail The Interview book which is for the rest of the population non-veteran – I do address specific issues that a

new hire versus a laid off and versus a returning parent would face. But I think that there is certainly is a flow to an interview that you need to understand and there are certain things that

you can do in the interview that might not be obvious. I try to teach some of the tips and tricks that are not just the standard interview.

[0:37:12.8] LC: And what would you say are not the obvious things?

[0:37:16.8] MTL: For example how you can redirect an interview. How you can learn to not

answer a question but answer a question with a very political response type of bridge to your method type of thing. How you close an interview in different ways. Things that you can do even

after you don’t get the job.

[0:37:34.4] LC: Exactly and that a lot of it is relationship building right?

[0:37:38.9] MTL: Everything is relationships.

[0:37:41.0] LC: That’s what I meant and thank you for correcting me. I don’t like formula like one-two-three do these five things but there is sort of a philosophy behind it maybe is a better

way of saying it, that does work. I don’t know that people understand that the relationship building piece and connecting and feeling that authentic person, is like that’s really what you are

experiencing. Because what’s best for both parties is if we are both being honest and truthful.


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Because you want to know that when you take the job you’re not going to get fired and you can

do the job on both sides. So that feels like such a critical piece to me. Is that what you think is at the core of the interviewing process?

[0:38:24.5] MTL: I think you’re right. I’m not sure you have all three questions there but you

probably did. So I always say that an interview is only about three questions but asking it in a lot of different ways. One is as you said, “Can you do the job? Do you have the ability, the skills and

knowledge?” The second is, “Do you want to do the job?” Do you have that passion, that motivation, that interest that we’ve been talking about and the third is, “Do you fit with the culture

of the company?” And that’s the one that people often give up.

[0:38:51.2] LC: And don’t try to make yourself fit just for the interview because if you really don’t fit, you are not going to be happy and they’re not going to be happy.

[0:38:56.9] MTL: And boy, do I have a story that ticks that. When I was graduating from

business school, I went to interview with a consulting firm and it was the hard world of consulting firms. It was like the one everybody wanted to work for. I went through seven rounds

of interviews. I kept getting called back, I kept getting called backed and it was me not all of them and I am thinking, “This is going great!” And I didn’t get the job and the only feedback they

gave me was that my style was too casual.

And I thought – I was really upset, really angry for a solid hour after that. I was just fuming, maybe even two hours. Somewhere between the first and second hour I started to realize, “Oh

my god, they just saved me.” Because I just wasn’t accepted at that job.

[0:39:53.2] LC: That’s right because if you are casual then it’s not that kind of environment, you’re going to be square pegged around the hole for a while, unless you want to change

yourself.

[0:40:02.9] MTL: Yeah, I was just not buttoned up enough for them and at the end of the day, I was better off because I wouldn’t be successful in an environment in which I wasn’t accepted.


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[0:40:15.1] LC: So we come into these job opportunities with so much fear and scarcity and you

know just wanting the approval of getting hired. But in the long run, those things they pretty much shoot us in the foot because that is not going to serve anybody in the career that they

want and how are you going to perform at your peak if you are in a place where you’re happy and fitting in?

[0:40:41.3] MTL: Exactly.

[0:40:43.8] LC: Well I feel like I could just keep going and going and going. Michelle there is so

much here. I usually end the conversation with talking about authenticity but you and I have discussed it so much that I feel as if you’ve already answered the question of what authentic

living means to you. If people are looking for you, if they want to get more information, they want to get this free chapter, where can they find you?

[0:41:06.9] MTL: The easiest thing is to go to my website which is michelletillislederman.com

and from there, you can find my blog, you can find my YouTube channel. I put lots of tip videos out there. You can find me on LinkedIn, you can find me on Twitter, you can find me on

Facebook. The professional page, not the personal one and if you go to michelletillislederman.com/giftpack, you can download the chapters for free, the networking

assessment, the interview prep checklist. I give lots of free goodies away and they’re all yours.

[0:41:54.5] LC: Fantastic and guys, I’m on the website. Links to the books, links to coaching if you are interested, trainings, it is a website filled with high value materials. So go check it out.

Michelle thank you so much for joining us and being so generous with your time.

[0:42:15.0] MTL: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

[END]


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AOA - Michelle Tillis Lederman - lauracoe.com · AOA Transcript I said to the newly appointed CEO, I can do this and he said okay, you still have to do a hedge fund investing and