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3M Transcript for the following interview: Ep-9-Who are Standards

Australia and what do they do?

Mark Reggers (R) Catherine Dunkerley (D)

Introduction: The 3M Science of Safety podcast is a free publication. The

information presented in this podcast is general only, and you should always seek

the advice of a licensed or certified professional in relation to your specific work or

task.

Welcome to the 3M Science of Safety podcast presented by 3M Australia and

New Zealand Personal Safety Division. This is a podcast that is curious about the

signs and systems of all things work, health and safety, that keep workers safe and

protect their health. I am Mark Reggers, an occupational hygienist, who likes to

ask the questions Why, How, and Please Explain. Whether you are a safety

professional, occupational hygienist, or someone with any level of WHS

responsibility in the workplace, maybe you are a user of safety products or maybe

you are a bit of a safety nerd who finds this stuff really interesting, then this is a

podcast for you.

(R) Today we’re talking about the world of standards with Catherine Dunkley.

Welcome Catherine!

(D) Thank you, thank you for having me, Mark.

(R) Please introduce yourself. Who are you, where are you from, and what do you

do?

(D) I am a senior stakeholder engagement manager at Standards Australia, and I

work in the portfolio of public safety, public administration, business and

management, and health and community services.

Episode 9- Who are Standards Australia and what do they do?

Episode 9- Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 2

(R) So just a small, little section there, nothing [D: Small portfolio] too big.

(D) So, my background, I have been working in government, industry-facing

government roles, for the last 20 years, economic development, strategy

development, but most importantly stakeholder engagement to look at how we can

come up with solutions that will help our industry.

(R) Fantastic, now you say you are from Standards Australia. [D: Yes]. It’s probably

a pretty good place to start. Who are Standards Australia and what do they do?

(D) Standards Australia is Australia’s peak independent non-governmental

standards development organisation. We are not for profit, as I said, we are not a

government organisation, and we actually work for the net benefit of Australia

through the development of standards either in Australia or through the

development of international standards that will make Australia a safer, healthier,

more productive country.

(R) I say this, probably something comes up, are you a government organisation?

No, we are not.

(D) It comes up regularly. Yes, a lot of people do think we are a government

agency, but we are independent, and we are a not-for-profit.

(R) Not for profit, right. So, playing devil’s advocate, and I mean, do standards

really matter? I mean, do they really help us, you know, it’s probably not something

a lot of people would think about on a day-to-day basis, so if we were to remove

standards, what difference would that actually make?

Episode 9-Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 3

(D) It is a really good question. I think when standards work properly people don’t

necessarily even recognise that they are involved in their life, if you are in your

infancy or you have a young child or baby that uses a dummy, you will be using

Australian Standard 2432, and I will just warn you now, there are a few numbers in

there.

(R) It is probably a good warning to do, we are going to have a lot of standards

numbers.

(D) Standards worlds, so we have standards that cover babies’ dummies, we have

standards that cover cots for household use, if you are out in the sun, we have

Australian and New Zealand standards that cover sunglasses and sunscreen which

hopefully most people in Australia use. If you turned your lights on this morning on

the way to work, getting up, you will have used our Australian standards for the

wiring rules, or actually if you have flushed a toilet today then the plumbing

standards come in, so they do actually impact everyday life.

(R) That’s an important one, most people would be doing that daily I hope.

(D) So other important ones, and particularly in society now as our demographics

change, we have a series that looks at the design of access and mobility, so that is

ASANZS 1428, so making sure that people have better access every day.

(R) I think that is something that, as you say, when standards work well you don’t

think about it, and I always think about this, are standards a bit better now, USB

sticks, or USB connection ports. We all have a USB port on our computer, with

different brands of computers and chargers that we just don’t think about that

whatever brand a manufacturer is going to connect and works, I guess that is

probably a good real world example [D: It is, it is, power supply], power supply [D:

common power supply] from across the world as well.

Episode 9- Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 4

(D) Yep, and ultimately, you know, standards that are developed benefit both

consumers, as we say in the world of things like sunscreen and spectacles, but also

for producers, so you know, standards help reduce the cost of you know, switching

products or you know, allowing greater economies of scale and export/import.

(R) So, what is a standard, we are talking Australian standards. What is a standard,

to get quite technical and get definition-based, what is a standard?

(D) A standard is actually a voluntary document and that is actually something that

is I think commonly misunderstood, but I will go into that in a little bit. It is a

document that actually sets out a specification or a procedure or a guideline that

aims to ensure that products, services, or even systems are actually safe, consistent

and reliable, and standards are actually developed on a consensus basis, so we

work with a broad range of stakeholder groups from consumers to researchers to

industry groups to regulators to ensure that a standard creates a set of information

that provides for common and repeated use that has rules, guidelines, or

characteristics, that means that we can achieve a minimum level of performance. I

think people often see an Australian standard as the platinum or the roof shall we

say, but actually it is the baseline, it is the minimum level of requirement on top of

which you can increase innovation and improve delivery.

(R) So, you mentioned that word consensus before, as that being a key part of that

standard, so what is consensus from a standards point of view? Does everyone

have to agree 100 percent, and there’s a standard?

(D) No, so consensus doesn’t mean a unanimous vote. What it does mean is that

there isn’t any ongoing and considered technical negative vote or consideration

against that particular standard, so it is really looking at what is the standard trying

Episode 9-Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 5

to achieve, can it technically do that, and if people agree at a common level of that

baseline, then that is when we reach consensus.

(R) So, I guess it is that minimum agreed level…

(D) Minimum agreed level, yes.

(R) So, what can be standardised. So, I mean, you mentioned systems, products,

services, it is pretty broad, is there a defined list of what can be standardised?

(D) Um, you’ve covered some of them already, so products, processes, services,

management systems, and there is a growing body of management system

standards that are coming out, particularly from an international level at the ISO

organisation and people.

(R) Pretty broad.

(D) It is pretty broad.

(R) That is very broad, and it sounds like a lot of work, and know in the health and

safety space there are lots of standards. Is it worth all this effort? I mean, we have

spoken about, we understand some of the benefits, but there is a lot of effort that

goes into making these standards. What is actually happening there?

(D) There is a lot of effort, but it is important to understand that there is benefit to

community, to industry, to our workplaces, to workers, and so, you know, there is a

range of benefits that come across, better value in terms of we have consistency of

products and services, and a consistency baseline of quality. If we are looking at

product standards, you know, they help consumers have a level of trust.

Episode 9-Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 6

(R) I know, working for 3M as a manufacturer of a whole range of safety products,

one of the first questions we get is Does it meet the standards, does it meet the

standards, so there is something that people have confidence or expectations [D:

Yeah, and there’s a trust..] and if it meets a standard, there is that trust there.

(D) Yeah, I mean it boosts confidence, because businesses themselves can say, you

know, we work to an Australian standard. You know, they can set up their

management systems and processes from quality of governance or risk, so it helps

a business you know, work effectively and I guess efficiently in that regard to

provide something that is safe, reliable, you know, fit for purpose. Innovation, I

think a lot of people think that Australia standards potentially stifle innovation, but

given they are a baseline, it ensures that everyone is working to that common

baseline level, and then people can innovate on top of that. I think another really

important aspect is reducing barriers to trade, and in Australia we look to adopt

international standards where they are appropriate, and they are again fit for

purpose for an Australian environment. But what that means for our industry is that

they wish to export their products or services, they are already, you know, working

to an international standard…

(R) …or complying with that standard, recognising wherever they are looking to

ship their product or operate in…

(D) Yeah, it can help reduce red tape in terms of harmonisation across an industry

and really they are, particularly for some industries as well, they are central to a

business’ development and transaction, and actually some standards make those

transactions easier and can help businesses thrive.

(R) So, you said, going back to a little bit earlier on when you said standards are

voluntary, so how are they applied? If they are only voluntary, why would people

want to try to meet them if they don’t have to?

Episode 9-Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 7

(D) So, standards are voluntary unless they are put into regulations and cited in

regulations or legislation or entered into in terms of a contract. So, if you are

applying to sell your product into a procurement department, they may require that

you meet an Australian standard. And they do that because they want to have a

base level understanding of your products or your service meeting that, you know

[R: criteria..] quality, criteria, fit for purpose that has gone through that standards

development process. In terms of regulatory compliance, obviously standards are

important, and they are often cited in legislation, and if they are cited in legislation

that is something that you are required to do. So, we also have guidance

documents, and actually they often accompany an Australian standard, so they

give greater education and…

(R) …level of detail?

(D) …a level of detail about how you can either use or apply a particular standard,

and it is more detail for the industry in terms of saying, here is the standard, but

here are ways that you can actually look at that application.

(R) And I guess selection use of maintenance standards in the health and safety

world are a very common type of document that help provide that guidance

information for people that may be coming into a space, so respiratory selection

use of maintenance, where do we even begin to look at these particular type of

products.

(D) Their standards, yeah, and from a regulation point of view Australia is quite a

different environment to a number of other countries, because we have regulation

at federal level, and at state level, and there are certain regulations across industry.

So, we have quite a complex framework or matrix of regulation and regulatory

Episode 9-Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 8

environments in Australia, so standards play different roles depending on, you

know, where they sit within that framework.

(R) Because we’ve got Safe Work Australia, all the state regulatory bodies, some

are harmonised, not harmonising, you have the standards and codes of practice, so

yeah, I think most people appreciate when you are saying that complex framework,

but all good information out there. So, we are talking about all these different

types of standards, but who actually develops them all, and I know you’ve got

Standards Australia, but I guess internationally who is putting all this work into

making these standards.

(D) So, there are really three levels of standards development. The first is

international, and people may be aware of the International Organisation of

Standardisation, otherwise known as the ISO [R: ISO, yes} and the International

Electrotechnical Commission, otherwise known as the IEC. We also have the

International Telecommunications Union at the international level. So, they are

made up of national bodies for the ISO particularly, so Australia would represent

Australian interests in that particular international body, and Standards Australia as

the peak national body for Australia is that representative. We can help develop

international standards, but we are also able to then adopt those standards in

Australia where appropriate. You do also have regional standards organisations

and they work to a specific region such as the European Union’s EN standards

body, or even in our own region we have the Pacific Area Standards Congress

otherwise known as PASC. And obviously we have national standards

organisations like Standards Australia.

(R) Certainly do.

(D) Locally for us as well in Australia and New Zealand, we also develop joint

standards, so a joint

Episode 9-Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 9

AS/NZS standard is where we have had contributors from both Australia and New

Zealand develop the standard that can be applied within both countries.

(R) I guess given the amount of work standards take, if we can adopt those

international standards or share that work in adoption with New Zealand, I guess

that is probably a good thing in the overall time and effort for people as well?

(D) It is from an effort perspective, absolutely, and where appropriate we look to

adopt international standards, but again it comes back to the benefits of standards

for Australia and Australians, and harmonisation and you know, reducing barriers to

trade, they are all really good things for our industry, so if that helps support

businesses and growth, then that is a positive contribution. There are also a small

number of organisations in Australia that are also accredited to develop standards

for their specific industry.

(R) So, most of our listeners would be familiar with AS/NZS 4801, it’s been around

for quite a while, and they are probably also familiar with the ISO standard 45001

coming in, or may be coming in. Can you help explain the differences between

those two standards?

(D) So yeah, 4801 was last developed back in 2001, so…

(R) It seems like a lifetime ago…

(D) It has been around for a while, and actually the ISO 45001 Occupational Health

and Safety Management Systems Requirements with Guidance for Use…

(R) Should use the full title!

Episode 9-Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 10

(D) Nice long title…was actually published internationally in March this year, so it

really, I guess speaks to the occupational health and safety discipline as it is today,

which is actually very different from 2001

(R) Seventeen years ago?

(D) Absolutely. And really, ISO 45001 is looking to establish and provide a

framework for management and the prevention of injury, illness, and death. It is

really looking at providing for a safe and healthy workplace, so it is setting the

framework of how to achieve that, not what you have to do to achieve that

particular outcome, so…

(R) So less prescriptive

(D) Less prescriptive, and it is really looking at making sure that people establish a

continuous review and amendment cycle to ensure that organisations don’t just set

and forget the management of occupational health and safety. The focus is on

what an organisation is required to do to keep people safe, not how to do it,

because that is really going to depend on the size, scale, and business context of an

organisation.

(R) Every workplace is different, from small to large, so I can appreciate where

they are coming from in that space.

(D) Absolutely. And really, the 45001, because it is a framework, it is actually

based on a high-level structure of management systems, and we are seeing more

standards being developed at ISO level around these high-level structures, or

around these management systems, to enable and aid organisations to better

integrate different systems into their broader business processes. And you know,

most people have probably heard of ISO 9001…

Episode 9-Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 11

(R) Yep, quality management.

(D) …which is quality management. Some people work to 14001 which is

environmental management, 22001, food safety management, and 27001, which is

actually really important, it is about information management systems, so having a

common framework in that high-level structure actually enables organisations to

look at all their management systems and integrate those. So, the ISO has an

aspiration of 500,000 organisations across the world [R: Wow] to try and pick up

ISO and adopt ISO 45001 over the next decades. So, you know, I think there is a

general view that leadership is looking to take greater responsibility for health and

safety issues rather than just simple safety management.

(R) So, the big question, and it’s a question I have been asked probably the most

over my years of being in the health and safety area, are Australian standards law?

(D) No.

(R) No, all right.

(D) So, on their own, standards are voluntary, as you were kind of saying earlier,

there is no requirement for the public to comply with standards unless they are

cited in legislation, regulations, or are entered into within a contract. If they are in

regulation or legislation, then yes, they fall under the Australian legal system. In

addition, you know, Australian standards are sometimes incorporated into, you

know, legal documents…

(R) Like in contracts?

Episode 9-Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 12

(D) In contracts, and I guess in this case they are often considered a benchmark of

acceptability. However, it is really important to note that if a person confirms or

complies or aligns with an Australian standard, it does not automatically mean that

they have complied with the law, so a really good example is Australia’s Workplace

Health and Safety laws. If you apply to a standard that supports occupational

health and safety, it does not mean that you are meeting your legal requirements.

So, there may be other risk controls or other requirements under the law that you

are still obliged to adhere to, but standards can actually help you work towards

that, but you really need to make sure that you are aware of your legal

requirements and are actually adhering to those.

(R) Well we’ve certainly covered a fair bit there, but maybe we’ll leave it there for

today and we’ll get you back for another episode. Thanks for your time, Catherine.

(D) Thank you.

(R) So, if people want to get in contact with Standards Australia, what is the best

way to do that if they’ve got questions about anything?

(D) Probably the best first step would be to visit our website which is

www.standards.org.au, that has my contact details [R: Fantastic], and the contact

details of how to get in contact with us, but we also have a range of social media

channels which people may want to engage with us on Linked In under Standards

Australia, Twitter, under @standardsaus, an Facebook at Standards Australia.

(R) Plenty of ways to get in contact [D: Definitely] with Standards Australia.

Fantastic.

Well thanks for listening, everyone. If you’ve got any questions, comments,

suggestions, for any future topics or guests that you think would be great to get

here in the studio, please shoot us an email at scienceofsafetyanz@mmm.com. You

Episode 9-Who are Standards Australia and what do they do? 13

can also contact us via that email if you need any information around 3M products

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