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THEODOR HERZL MEETS POPE PIUS X 423
who visits him kneels and at least kisses hishand. This hand
kiss had worried me a greatdeal and I was glad when it was out of
theway.
He seated himself in an armchair, a thronefor minor affairs, and
invited me to sit by his
side. He smiled in kindly anticipation. Ibegan:HERZL: I thank
Your Holiness for the favor ofgranting me this audience. [I begged
him toexcuse my miserable Italian, but he said:POPE: No, Signor
Commander, you speakvery well.HERZL: [He is an honest, rough-hewn
villagepriest, to whom Christianity has remained aliving thing even
in the Vatican. I briefly laidmy request before him. But annoyed
perhapsby my refusal to kiss his hand, he answered ina stern
categorical manner.POPE: We are unable to favor this movement[of
Zionism]. We cannot prevent the Jewsfrom going to Jerusalembut we
could neversanction it. The ground of Jerusalem, if itwere not
always sacred, has been sanctified bythe life of Jesus Christ. As
the head of theChurch I cannot answer you otherwise. The
Jews have not recognized our Lord, thereforewe cannot recognize
the Jewish people.HERZL: [The conflict between Rome and
Jerusalem, represented by the one and theother of us, was once
again under way. At theoutset I tried to be conciliatory. I said
mylittle piece. . . . It didnt greatly impress him.
Jerusalem was not to be placed in Jewishhands.] And its present
status, Holy Father?POPE: I know, it is disagreeable to see
theTurks in possession of our Holy Places. Wesimply have to put up
with it. But to sanctionthe Jewish wish to occupy these sites, that
wecannot do.
HERZL: [I said that we based our movementsolely on the
sufferings of the Jews, andwished to put aside all religious
issues].POPE: Yes, but we, but I as the head of theCatholic Church,
cannot do this. One of twothings will likely happen. Either the
Jews willretain their ancient faith and continue toawait the
Messiah whom we believe hasalready appearedin which case they
aredenying the divinity of Jesus and we cannot
assist them. Or else they will go there with noreligion
whatever, and then we can havenothing at all to do with them
The Jewish faith was the foundation of ourown, but it has been
superceded by theteachings of Christ, and we cannot admit that
it still enjoys any validity.
2
The Jews whoshould have been the first to acknowledgeJesus
Christ have not done so to this day.HERZL: [It was on the tip of my
tongue toremark, It happens in every family: no onebelieves in his
own relative. But, instead, Isaid:] Terror and persecution were
notprecisely the best means for converting the
Jews. [His reply had an element of grandeurin its
simplicity:]POPE: Our Lord came without power. Hecame in peace. He
persecuted no one. He wasabandoned even by his apostles. It was
onlylater that he attained stature. It took threecenturies for the
Church to evolve. The Jewstherefore had plenty of time in which
toaccept his divinity without duress or pressure.But they chose not
to do so, and they havenot done it yet.
3
HERZL: But, Holy Father, the Jews are in aterrible plight. I do
not know if Your Holinessis aware of the full extent of their
tragedy. Weneed a land for these harried people.
POPE: Must it be Jerusalem?HERZL: We are not asking for
Jerusalem, butfor Palestinefor only the secular land.POPE: We
cannot be in favor of it.
2Here unrelenting replacement theology is plainlyupheld as the
norm of the Roman CatholicChurch. Further, this confession, along
with thewhole tone of the Pope in his meeting with Herzl,indicates
the perpetuation of a doctrinal emphasis
that has resulted in centuries of degradingbehavior toward the
Jews.3
However, this response has the grandeur oftotal avoidance of
that which Herzl had intimated,namely that the abusive reputation
of RomanCatholicism toward the Jews was unlikely tofoster
conversion. Further, if, It took threecenturies for the Church to
evolve, it was thatvery same period of time that it took for
theChurch to consolidate and launch its thrust ofanti-Semitism
through the following centuries.
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JUDEO-CENTRIC PREMILLENNIALISM424
HERZL: Does Your Holiness know thesituation of the Jews?POPE:
Yes, from my days in Mantua, wherethere are Jews. I have always
been in friendlyrelations with Jews. Only the other eveningtwo Jews
were here to see me. There are other
bonds than those of religion: socialintercourse, for example,
and philanthropy.Such bonds we do not refuse to maintain withthe
Jews. Indeed we also pray for them, thattheir spirit see the light.
This very day theChurch is celebrating the feast of anunbeliever
who became converted in amiraculous manneron the road toDamascus.
And so if you come to Palestineand settle your people there, we
will be readywith churches and priests to baptize all ofyou.
4
HERZL: [At this point Conte Lippay hadhimself announced. The
Pope bade him beadmitted. The Conte kneeled, kissed his hand,and
joined in the conversation by telling ofour miraculous meeting in
the Bauer beer-hall at Venice. The miracle was that he
hadoriginally intended to stay overnight in Padua,
4This would not have impressed Herzl, especiallysince he would
have been well aware of thenotorious kidnapping of a six year old
Jewish boy
from his home in Bologna, Italy, by the RomanCatholic
authorities in 1858. The reason was thatsince a Gentile nurse had
secretly baptizedEdgardo Mortara as a baby, the Churchdetermined
that he had to be brought up under aRoman Catholic environment. The
prior Pope PiusIX was deeply complicit in this whole sordid
affairthat attained to world-wide notoriety. Refer to,David I.
Kertzer, The Kidnapping of EdgardoMortara.
and instead, it turned out that he was given tohear me express
the wish to kiss the HolyFathers foot.
At this the Pope made no movement, for Ihadnt even kissed his
hand. Lippayproceeded to tell how I had expiated on the
noble qualities of Jesus Christ. The Popelistened, and now and
then took a pinch ofsnuff and sneezed into a big red
cottonhandkerchief. It is these peasant toucheswhich I like about
him best and which mostof all compel my respect.
Lippay, it would appear, wanted toaccount for his introducing
me, and perhapsward off a word of reproach. But the Popesaid:POPE:
On the contrary, I am glad you broughtme the Signor
Commendatore.HERZL: [As to the real business, he repeatedwhat he
had told me, until he dismissed us:]POPE: Not possible!HERZL:
[Lippay stayed on his knees for anunconscionable time and never
seemed to tireof kissing his hand. It was apparent that thiswas
what the Pope liked. But on taking leave,I contented myself with
shaking his handwarmly and bowing deeply. The audiencelasted about
twenty-five minutes.
While spending the last hour in the
Raphael gallery, I saw a picture of anEmperor kneeling before a
seated Pope andreceiving the crown from his hands. Thatshow Rome
wants it.]
5
5Rosenthal, Diaries of Theodor Herzl, pp. 427-430.
