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Topic: Retention Vanish

Message: Posted by: Eddy (Jan 7, 2004 08:40AM)

I am new to coin magic. Im a cardy, but I was wondering what are the best sources for the retention vanishwhich I have seen done with 100% accuracy, yet up to now I have no explanations of. Thanks.

Message: Posted by: Jonathan Tow nsend (Jan 7, 2004 09:25AM)

The 'elusive coin pass', or 'a coin vanish' as T. J. Crawford called it was published in 'Modern Coin Magic'and several other easily obtained texts.

One might wish to allocate about a year towards learning the nuances of the timing involved in making thehand closure and coin placement produce the 'retention of vision' effect.

The Downs book, and Bobo's 'Modern Coin Magic' have been reprinted in paperback and can be had newat a modest price.

Should you wish to pursue a more serious or in-depth course of study, Richard Kaufman has written twobooks which are more modern tomes of the craft. There are also DVD series of note which may be ofinterest. These include works by Dr Michael Rubenstein, David Roth, Jay Sankey...

Message: Posted by: alexanderN (Jan 7, 2004 02:00PM)

Look at coinvansih.com (foundations) there is a clear explanation of retention vanish :spinningcoin:

I mean coinvanish.com sorry

Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 7, 2004 02:15PM)

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The best, absolute BEST, retention of vision vanish is Mickey Silver's.

Message: Posted by: RandyM (Jan 7, 2004 08:44PM)

I would say without hesitation that David Roth's retention is the best! I have been doing it for many years.Most of the time when reading books I find it difficult to follow or understand the exact handling so I opted toget David's Video (Stars of Magic) where it is explained in detail. However , Expert Coin Magic (I think by R.Kaufmann) explains it very well also.

Message: Posted by: Almost-A-Magician (Jan 7, 2004 09:52PM)

I second that....I learned it from David Roth's video, and found it explained and demonstrated very well. I loveit and use it often.

Message: Posted by: Pete Biro (Jan 7, 2004 09:56PM)

I just finished watching a demo video (a teaching DVD is in the works) of the Mickey Silver retention vanish(variations) and myself, and the boys at Dean Dill's were BLOWN AWAY...

No clue as the to real work.

I especially thought the coin in mouth and the use of a ladle was quite original and baffling.

Can't wait for the DVD to get the "work"...:spinningcoin:

Message: Posted by: Eric Grossman (Jan 8, 2004 12:21AM)

I agree, that Mickey's is the best, however the "work" is not available yet. Check out Mike Rubinstein'sEncyclopedia of Coin Sleights videos. There are a number of excellent retention vanishes on it, and they arethoroughly taught.




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Eric Grossman

Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Jan 10, 2004 12:00AM)

Yes, Michael Rubinstein is a great teacher, and his coin work is amazing, and lots of fun. I would definitlyheed JonTown's advice above. The rentention vanish, seems to me, is one of those moves you just have todo for real people in order to gain the proper confidence. For me it was, anyway. And now there's this newMickey Sliver thing, jeez... :idea:

Message: Posted by: Liam Jones (Jan 10, 2004 07:58AM)

Have a look in modern coin magic or micheal amarrs series in coin magic hope I helped :)

ESPecially magicboi :spinningcoin:

Message: Posted by: DaveM (Jan 10, 2004 08:53AM)

Check out Denis Behr's site for some nice retention vanishes under "coin work":

http://www.denisbehr.de/

Dave

Message: Posted by: Sk8rDave (Jan 27, 2004 01:58AM)

I think the best description of how to do my favorite version of this sleight is in The Vernon Chronicles, TheLost Inner Secrets volume one. It's called the Persistance of Vision Coin Vanish. Typical of Vernon, it has nosuperfluous motion but looks incredible. It's clearly written and illustrated.

Message: Posted by: Frank Starsini (Jan 27, 2004 12:32PM)

I still think that Roth version is the most natural.




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Mickey's has better retention but Roth's "putting" hand is absolutely clean as a whistle.

And Denis' above is awfully close to wonderful too. Check out those fingertip retention vanishes. nice.

Message: Posted by: deerbourne (Jan 27, 2004 12:49PM)

Just go out and get the first three volumes of Roth's Coin Magic tapes. You'll get the Retention Vanish (whichI still can't get either) and everything else you'll need to be a coiny as well as a cardy.

Deerbourne

Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 27, 2004 07:44PM)

I've watched that Mickey Silver Video over and over...I cannot fathom how it's done. NO finger movement, NObent knuckle...it is just simply impossible.

If you are lucky to get on his mailing list, you will see what we are so excited about...this cannot be duplicatedwithout instruction from the master himself. There is a discussion afloat about whether he SHOULD releaseit, as it's so exclusive, but the demo tape blew me away. Completely.

The more I play this, the more baffled... :confused:

Doug

Message: Posted by: Bill Palmer (Jan 27, 2004 09:34PM)

[quote]On 2004-01-07 20:44, smokey43 wrote:I would say without hesitation that David Roth's retention is the best! I have been doing it for many years.




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Most of the time when reading books I find it difficult to follow or understand the exact handling so I opted toget David's Video (Stars of Magic) where it is explained in detail. However , Expert Coin Magic (I think by R.Kaufmann) explains it very well also.[/quote]

I learned how to do the retention vanish correctly from David Roth in a private lesson at the TAOM conventionin San Antonion in 1989. Up until I saw Mickey Silver's video, I would have said, without hesitation, thatRoth's retention of vision vanish was the best.

However, I saw Mickey's video. All I could say was "Oh, no. Oh, no. Oh, no." I saw Dennis Behr's video, too.Very nice, but he flashes on the second retention vanish. Mickey still has both of them beat. This ain't yourgrandmother's retention vanish, fellows!

[quote]On 2004-01-10 07:58, magicboi wrote:Have a look in modern coin magic or micheal amarrs series in coin magic hope I helped :)

ESPecially magicboi :spinningcoin:[/quote]

Take a look at Mickey's. You will swear that he has a magnet imbedded in his finger!

Message: Posted by: cperkins (Jan 27, 2004 10:05PM)

Last wekend I happened to cue up Vol. 2 of Michael Rubenstein's Encyclopedia of Coin Magic. I hadn'tworked with this material for quite some time, but it reminded me of what an amazing eaching series thisis...still inspires and teaches good habits.

Point is. Vol 2 contains a variety of retention passes among other important families of sleights (spellboundsetc.).




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Michael teaches and performs the retention pass on the Encyclopia series as well as anyone. I recommendit to new and not so new "coinies." I think Mickey likes Ken Krenzell's variation that Michael teaches....

The best..cp

Message: Posted by: GaryW (Jan 28, 2004 06:22AM)

I had problems learning the retention vanish from text like Bobo and just never quite got it... but was muchimproved a few minutes after watching Roth Expert CM Vol 2 Video. I recommend it!

Message: Posted by: carpelo (Jan 28, 2004 07:41AM)

Well,

I did learn retention of vision vanish from Roth's videos, but now I have seen Curtis Kam, or Denis Behr doingit a different way. Less fingers are involved in the move, and it seems as if the thumb pulls the coin and itpivots around the second finger.

It seemed to me that it was a very different method than Roth oneWhere can I find a description of that retention vanish :question:

thanks in advance

Carlos P�rez

Message: Posted by: Jonathan Tow nsend (Jan 28, 2004 07:50AM)

Carlos, the retention of vision is produced by a timing effect. The view of the coin is obscured at the sametime as the body language of the hands communicate a transfer of the coin/ball/object.




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The move done by the 'putting' hand can be done 'into' several positions including pockets, fingertips,hankercheifs... or as Mickey Silver has demonstrated... even an ear.

The move can be used almost as a 'take' if you allow for a slight motion in the 'put' hand at the instant oftransfer.

Could there be a market for a dedicated booklet or video on this stuff?

Message: Posted by: shaw lie (Jan 28, 2004 10:41AM)

I like the Rubenstein tapes, too. I work on his 3 variations, and particularly like his use of fewer fingers.Seems quicker, but possibly more angle-prone after the move, at least for me.

While practicing, I did one thing to help get an idea of the "timing". I did the whole thing very slowly, exceptthe actual "steal", which I did at more or less normal speed. When working on the one by Vernon (in Bobo's) Ifound this to be particularly helpful. I could see how it was meant to look; both hands seemed to be behavingnaturally. I couldn't quite "get it" before, doing each part at the same speed.

I can't wait to see the Mickey Silver version. And I would probably buy a "dedicated booklet or video" onvarious retention techniques. Pointers on retention-click passes and "double" retention vanishes would bepretty handy, too.

Message: Posted by: Badger (Jan 28, 2004 02:31PM)

Mickey Silver will have a DVD out soon. Get it ASAP when it comes out. This will be all you need. :)

Message: Posted by: Dougini (Jan 28, 2004 07:39PM)

It's the second sleight that kicks it up for me...he "shows" the coin is still there (it never was)...and it's gone! Iwould SWEAR I saw the coin go unmistakeably in the hand...that method of doing the ROV, then going back,




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SHOWING the coin is still there, and ROV'ing again...then, the routine with two coins...ear to ear to mouth tohand, slam into the ear, out the other ear, into the mouth, out the ear...

He calls it "bouncing around the retention of vision"...and that's exactly what he does...the psychology isperfect. The eating of the coins part, still makes me laugh till I cry...I envy Jim Canaday for being able to hangout with him...sure miss Boston...

Doug

Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Feb 14, 2015 10:45PM)

It's hard to believe this is an 11-year-old thread:). But it's exactly where I am with the retention vanish, and theabove posts are really helpful. For a couple of months I thought I was doing it right because I was followingthe steps in Bobo, and then in Kaufman's "David Roth's Expert Coin Magic." But after awhile I realized itwasn't working - not as it is supposed to - actually utilizing the ROV effect. I have been working this over andover, slow, medium and fast, and I'm still not getting it. This thread helped a lot - as old as it is.

My question now is if, in the last 11 years, the suggested dedicated booklet or video ever happened? Orhave there been any other developments in this excellent illusion?

Thanks!

Ken

Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Feb 15, 2015 09:28AM)

Ken,

After all that time and effort, from good instruction, I'm pretty sure you have this thing down quite a bit betterthan you think. ;)




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Mickey's RV is a special one indeed, but it works on the same principle. Find your own place in it and with itand that will be good enough in most cases. Indeed, I believe that you are already where you want to be. :)

Message: Posted by: Dougini (Feb 15, 2015 09:31AM)

[quote]On Feb 14, 2015, KenRyan wrote:My question now is if, in the last 11 years, the suggested dedicated booklet or video ever happened? Orhave there been any other developments in this excellent illusion?[/quote]I'm afraid not, Ken. Enough members here convinced Mickey that releasing this might not be such a greatidea! Look at YouTube for why...

Sad but true. To keep this sleight Mickey's, he has to keep it to himself. Someone said it could NOT betaught. So, Mickey taught it to Vinny. Vinny is the ONLY one with Mickey's real work. Am I happy about this?Yes and no.

I have practiced my ROV for 10 years now. It's a variation of Michael Rubinstein's. It works for me. Is it asgood as Mickey's? NO-hell no! To bring it to Mickey's level, I'd have to take on Mickey's persona. I tell yafriends, I would look silly as HELL!

Forget copying him. Bring your OWN into this level! Find one ya like, Roth, Watkins, Rubinstein, and WORKit! Backwards and forwards! Tell a story! A reason the coin does what it does! Practice timing! Mickey's earto ear is a good one to watch. The off-beat. The weight-shift. Look at his eyes. The expression.

You cannot teach this. You either have the personality or ya don't. I don't. I'm as dull as a chicken-stumpfence. I cannot smile like Mickey. If I tried, it would be a horrific grimace! I get by. I work within my means. Wehave to be who we are. That's why I'm glad Mickey will not teach his ROV.

Doug




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Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Feb 15, 2015 10:48AM)

Bill Palmer says The best, absolute BEST, retention of vision vanish is Mickey Silver's.yes but he doesn't teach it;;yes this is true Mickey taught me his SUV over 15 YEARS AGO. I never use it .thpought the closet personthat comes close to it is my dentist friend in washington

vinny

Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Feb 15, 2015 11:20AM)

Thanks Marion and Doug. I spent a goodly couple of hours in front of a mirror last night and after watchingevery video in this and another ROV thread I found on TMC (plus putting that section of the Roth DVD on aloop:)). I was able to get the timing down to flash that burn! So the ROV effect is finally coming along. Thanksfor the confidence, Marion! You're right. It was there. I just needed to tweak some timing issues - actualspeed and relative speed of the elements, combined with experimenting with smooth and snappymovements.

My "dirty" hand, however, has much to be desired. The fingers wiggle and bend too much during the steal.I'm starting to really see why folks are saying to try different methods of stealing the coin because I suspectthe Roth finger/hand motion may not work as well for me as something else, perhaps due in part (perhapsentirely) to my monstrous alien hands:-P (8.5 inches from base of hand to tip of middle finger and an 11-inchhand span). And size notwithstanding, relative length of fingers to each other, fingers to size of palm, etc.also serve to differentiate one person's hands from another. For example, I have a digit ratio of less than 1(index finger shorter than ring finger). I have no idea what that might mean - if anything - for being bettersuited to one method over another. That might be an interesting study:).

Also, everything I just mentioned is mechanical in nature. I didn't mention persona, personality, context of theroutine, etc. Those are obviously important too, and will be a factor in the ROV vanish/pass (Roth has




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"retention pass" in the DVD but Kaufman says "retention vanish" in "Expert Coin Magic").

Thanks again for the additional insight!

Cheers,

Ken


[quote]On Feb 15, 2015, Dougini wrote:...You cannot teach this. You either have the personality or ya don't. I don't. I'm as dull as a chicken-stumpfence. I cannot smile like Mickey. If I tried, it would be a horrific grimace! I get by. I work within my means. Wehave to be who we are. That's why I'm glad Mickey will not teach his ROV.Doug [/quote]

Agreed!

Work within your means behind good basics, and just do YOU! :)

Of the big, small & all, most coin magicians, to me, are not Mickey Silver, and do not wish to be for reasonsthat doug here alludes to. Everything doesn't work for everyone, but this unique aspect works for Mickey. Inwhat he does, he's sorta made himself a part of the move, while most others simply use the move as a waysto a means.

For most, the focus is not kept on the move, but for Mickey, the move is the focus, is the magic�And that'swhy he uses it in the countless ways he has made so interesting and memorably magical�He's taken a noteand created a symphony�He's indeed made magic from the move itself, sorta like making a simplehammer or nail dance, or something like that. :)

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Message: Posted by: funsw ay (Feb 15, 2015 03:26PM)

[quote]On Feb 15, 2015, vinsmagic wrote:Bill Palmer says The best, absolute BEST, retention of vision vanish is Mickey Silver's.yes but he doesn't teach it;;yes this is true Mickey taught me his SUV over 15 YEARS AGO. I never use it .thpought the closet personthat comes close to it is my dentist friend in washington

vinny [/quote]

Vinny is too modest.

He has a POV move based on his Crimp that has the coin already in Palm position when the FULL coin isseen dropping into the receiving hand.

Thus, there is absolutely no finger movement of the placing hand as the receiving hand closes.

Then the passing hand rests on the table with fingers spread wide open.

Gets my vote


[quote]On Feb 15, 2015, funsway wrote:Vinny is too modest.

He has a POV move based on his Crimp that has the coin already in Palm position when the FULL coin isseen dropping into the receiving hand.

Thus, there is absolutely no finger movement of the placing hand as the receiving hand closes.




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Then the passing hand rests on the table with fingers spread wide open.

Gets my vote [/quote]

Funsway - I agree! I'm still pretty new, but I don't usually this move done where you could see the coinTHROUGH the fingers of the receiving hand (maybe with Mickey Silver's handling?) thus giving you evenLESS time to steal it, as in Vinny's version. It's incredibly deceptive. I like it a lot.

My two pence.

Ken

Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Feb 15, 2015 07:13PM)

I beieve this is the vanish ken is talking about. and mickey Silver loved this as well I hope you all do

http://youtu.be/Wg7SKD3xT5I

Message: Posted by: MICKEY SILVER (Feb 15, 2015 08:49PM)

" EXCELLENT VINNY".................. You are the best ever !!!!

"MICKEY SILVER"


[quote]On Feb 15, 2015, vinsmagic wrote:I beieve this is the vanish ken is talking about.




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and mickey Silver loved this as well I hope you all do

http://youtu.be/Wg7SKD3xT5I [/quote]

Actually, Vinny, I was talking about your Snap, Crackle, Pop. But this one is awesome as well. Thanks!

Ken

Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Feb 15, 2015 10:14PM)

Fantastic Vinny! (As usual)

Thanks!

Jim

Message: Posted by: funsw ay (Feb 16, 2015 04:58AM)

Too many "kens" here ;) --or is that misdirection?

Please notice Vinny's ability to have his Passing Hand flat on the table with spread fingers after the FalseTransfer,

and his "CrossToss" for the final reveal to suggest that the coin was there all the time but perhaps invisible.

Methinks that often magicians focus too much on the purity of the single sleight rather then the impact of theentire effect.

The superb "flash" in Vinny's handling is not just to support the "knowing" that the coin is in the receiving




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hand,

but to misdirect away from the Passing Hand when the reveal occurs.

Since the performer knows the audience is certain the coin is in the Receiving Hand it is easier to act as if itis.

Following Al Schneider's practice guide you learn to "feel" the coin in that hand and appreciate its textureand weight.

Thus, a "retention vanish" is not a single sleight, but a combination of moves to create a memory and story.

Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Feb 16, 2015 11:10AM)

Good points, Ken... (Funsway, that is). Just about every aspect of each of Vinny's moves was done perfectly,from start to finish.

Jim


Hi jim I updated the demo and sent you a pmvinny

Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Feb 16, 2015 04:16PM)

[quote]On Feb 16, 2015, vinsmagic wrote:Hi jim I updated the demo and sent you a pmvinny [/quote]

Thanks Vinny!




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Jim


A new twist to an old effect,a new song to a remembered tune

Marini�s Slide Away

I know a fine, most special move,that can your magic sure improve.A coin, a hand in gentle crimp �It�s called Marini�s Slide Away, ole�All you see is an empty hand,a grasp of coin it does intend,and, no one sees the secret bend �with fingers wide that steal away, ole�If you do retention as books have taught so well,your fumbling hands and doubt will provide a tell.But if you Crimp that coin as Vinny demonstratesit will be gone without a trace save sense of awe.

Just flash and glide and close your fist, and know that eyes and mind cannot resist.Then show both hands as vacant space, but close once more just in casethe coin returns in a magic way, ole�Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Feb 17, 2015 11:26AM)




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WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWKEN I AM HONORED

VINNY

Message: Posted by: Mb217 (Feb 17, 2015 06:52PM)

:)

Message: Posted by: Andrew Zuber (Feb 20, 2015 01:35PM)

I am ashamed to admit I had never seen Mickey's work until coming across this thread yesterday. Holybananas, that coin goes IN his hand. I am convinced of it. What happens next must actually be magic. I wascompletely fooled. Beautiful stuff!


[quote]On Feb 20, 2015, Andrew Zuber wrote:I am ashamed to admit I had never seen Mickey's work until coming across this thread yesterday. Holybananas, that coin goes IN his hand. I am convinced of it. What happens next must actually be magic. I wascompletely fooled. Beautiful stuff! [/quote]

Agreed!

Ken

Message: Posted by: Antony Gerard (Feb 20, 2015 04:44PM)

I have seen many perform the Retention Vanish and perform it well, however, Toni Polli from Milan Italy hasturned this move into a piece of art. It is a must to see live, however, unless you live near Milan Italy or attendthe 4F convention, you will have to see it on video. Below are two videos of Toni performing the Retention




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Vanish. I hope that you enjoy them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuN5gXrm5MA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXPS7OScY4Q

And he has gotten better since the above two videos.


I don't know what to say�But have Toni watch what Mickey Silver does with this move, way beyond thebasics. ;) Seriously, it's the difference between a few steps and entire spiral staircase. I'm just sayin'. :)


Im Italian ands I respect all italian amgicians his van ish is no where near mMckeys SUV vanish/I suggest you take a look at mickeys vanish. tgoins fingers move mickey's fingers don'tjust sayin

Message: Posted by: cperkins (Feb 20, 2015 09:25PM)

Toni's vanish is very very good. However, there are a lot of magicians out there that can do that. I am also nota big fan of all the stylin attached to a simple vanish, but that's just my own opinion.

Mickey puts a better vanish in the context of some larger spectacular miracles....iand its done in a veryrelaxed and natural manner. Very different and nothing like it!

A great burn on Toni's vanish...thanks for posting, Antony.

chuck

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Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Feb 20, 2015 10:43PM)

I smile when I see the comparisons between all the retention vanishes out there, and the opinions on who hasthe best one. Any vanish, of any type , has to be convincing to be effective. If the coin looks as if it wasplaced in the hand, and the audience believes it, then it's an effective vanish. As for technique, I agree thatMickey's technique is flawless, and the way he has figured out how to use it is very special. He has beenable to create a career by just using different applications of this move. But Mickey has a personna that isvery individualized, as is his mannerisms. If one tried to duplicate Mickey, they would look awkward. If onetried to be Slydini, it would look awkward. The use of the move and the mannerisms such as Mickey usingfinger Palm would not look the same in another's hands. This retention vanish is fine. David Roth's retentiontechnique is great. ROPS technique looks great. As is the moves and styles of anyone who can do a passeffectively. Look at clips from Dennis Behr and Larry Baronowski. Al Schneider (his snap back techniquewas the basis for my own techniques), and so many others. So that's my opinion and I'm sticking to it!

Message: Posted by: Jiceh (Feb 21, 2015 04:08AM)

[quote]On Feb 20, 2015, cperkins wrote:Toni's vanish is very very good. However, there are a lot of magicians out there that can do that. I am also nota big fan of all the stylin attached to a simple vanish, but that's just my own opinion.

Mickey puts a better vanish in the context of some larger spectacular miracles....iand its done in a veryrelaxed and natural manner. Very different and nothing like it!

A great burn on Toni's vanish...thanks for posting, Antony.

chuck [/quote]I agree 99 % and yes, I like M Silver a lot

Message: Posted by: Jiceh (Feb 21, 2015 04:10AM)

I like Vinny's technique too. One of my favorites. Great use of sleight of hand




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Very well put, Doctor.

My own education performing this move was from studying those you mentioned, in particular LarryBarnowsky's, Al Schneider's, and your own R.O.P.S..

(I should be fortunate enough to have such teachers in all I have studied!)

Thank you.

Jim

Message: Posted by: cperkins (Feb 21, 2015 07:42AM)

I agree with the good Doctor - lots of different styles and methods to accomplish the same thing and the truetest is whether it convinces the spectator. But since there are so many different techniques to accomplish it,(thanks in part to all those who have so willingly shared their methods with the magic community thrupublication), its only natural to compare. Its what we do as coin magicians, and its fun to look at various andunusual examples of excellence when they come along. And occasionally a paragon comes along andinspires us all.

And we all know, in the context of a larger routine, a good vanish doesn't even have to be of the "retention"variety to be convincing. I look at Gregory Wilson do his thing with his audience, but I wouldn't consider him astickler on technique or his vanish of a coin(s) a " beautiful thing." But he is totally convincing and his magicis strong.

We compare because occasionally we come across exceptional examples and its fun to do this, eventhough we all know such levels of perfection are not necessary to execute good magic.




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A more edifying conversation might be WHY a particular technique or execution is stronger than another -comparisons, when analyzed with detail, can inform.

Brady or Manning?

chuck


[quote]On Feb 21, 2015, cperkins wrote:

Brady or Manning?[/quote]

Mmmm... PSI of ball?

:rotf:

;)

Jim


AgainMickey Silver has set the standard for the traditional retention vanish, and the burn he gets is second tonone.The doctor mentioned most of the coin greats , however theyall have finger tells. , but with Mickeys SUVthere is no tell......Also the burn he gets with his SUV no one matches this.Why do you think magicians all over ther world want to learn his technique,because his SUV is the best .this is MHO and most other magicians as well.




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vinnylay people won't compare but magicians will


Vinny,

I don�t list Mickey's as a Retention Vanish I've studied because - I can't!!! It isn't taught to anyone - exceptyou of course!

Jim


Jim not sure if he will ever reveal his technique, but if he did his dvd would sell out in minutes.but for now this is why he is so sought aftervinny . I hope one day he does reveal his suv and many of his great effects......

Message: Posted by: Jonathan Tow nsend (Feb 21, 2015 02:48PM)

Finger motion in the putting hand after the action can tell on the sleight as it's visible to audience peripheralvision and can be plainly caught on camera.


[quote]On Feb 21, 2015, Jonathan Townsend wrote:Finger motion in the putting hand after the action can tell on the sleight as it's visible to audience peripheralvision and can be plainly caught on camera. [/quote]

easily offset by alternating a Retention Pass with an actual Put/Take and Kick-Back move.




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The best way to show the Putting hand empty is to have it empty. This also has drawbacks, but it is the abilityto "rewind" that is confused.

of curiosity -- why is being "caught on camera" of any concern at all?


?? Perihperal vision is darn good at catching flinches and finger motion during adjustments. The camera iseven less forgiving. See video for example(s)

On a seperate matter - Vinny's pass from Crimp Position looks good in his video.


Yea, but you didn't answer my question. Why is what a camera sees relevant to what a spectator sees?


[quote]On Feb 21, 2015, cperkins wrote:I agree with the good Doctor - lots of different styles and methods to accomplish the same thing and the truetest is whether it convinces the spectator. But since there are so many different techniques to accomplish it,(thanks in part to all those who have so willingly shared their methods with the magic community thrupublication), its only natural to compare. Its what we do as coin magicians, and its fun to look at various andunusual examples of excellence when they come along. And occasionally a paragon comes along andinspires us all.

And we all know, in the context of a larger routine, a good vanish doesn't even have to be of the "retention"variety to be convincing. I look at Gregory Wilson do his thing with his audience, but I wouldn't consider him astickler on technique or his vanish of a coin(s) a " beautiful thing." But he is totally convincing and his magicis strong.




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We compare because occasionally we come across exceptional examples and its fun to do this, eventhough we all know such levels of perfection are not necessary to execute good magic.

A more edifying conversation might be WHY a particular technique or execution is stronger than another -comparisons, when analyzed with detail, can inform.

Brady or Manning?

chuck [/quote]

Very well put.

I only offered a couple of lines as to all this, but really I think we're all saying a lot of the same things withMickey Silver's work being the epicenter nowadays. Again, his use of this move is the best I've ever seen.And the fact that for most it is just a move, a ways to a means, but for Mickey it is a lot more than that and hedid a lot more with it, provenly so IMHO. There is no disrespect toward any of the fine others mentioned andtheir contributions, and heck, the RV taught in Bobo's is all you need and when well done looks as good asanything within the context of what mostly it's used for in an effect, just like all the others. Again, what Mickeydoes is quite unique and worthy of deeper consideration, conversations, and analysis.

As to "comparisons," human beings compare everything, basketball players, religions, presidents, girls,themselves, everything. It is simply a main part in distinguishing good-better-best in the ways we should go, amental faculty used to determine the differences in varying shades of gray in order to offer more choice andpossibility as we might need to use it. Some comparisons are hard to make, or perhaps shouldn't be madebut the mind does this as it is will in its better discernment of that reality. Nothing escapes this, it's a part ofour sense of logic and order and happens automatically as to just about everything, even magic. Deeper anddeeper debates as to this will deliver responses flavored with individual opinions, some cheering, somereserved. And I had forgotten how great Denis Behr's RV was, it really is a thing of beauty, but even his isshown/used as in demonstrating a move. I still say that what Mickey has done with all this is way beyond what




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shown/used as in demonstrating a move. I still say that what Mickey has done with all this is way beyond whathas been done, or something like that. :)


And maybe the best Retention Vanish is the one you never even knew happened.

Only later when the coin is somewhere other than expected does one attempt to remember -- and be wrong.

It is often the setting/framing in which a coin is placed in the other hand for no reason that makes the Sleightvisible.

In Mickeys routines you don't know what to expect and there is no anticipation -- so, no suspicion or tell.


[quote]On Feb 21, 2015, funsway wrote:Yea, but you didn't answer my question. Why is what a camera sees relevant to what a spectator sees?[/quote]

How

Some folks in audiences told me about how they look at things and what they notice.

The camera records in a way that lets one review the material looking at the screen rather than at theperformer's presumed focus of attention.


[quote]On Feb 21, 2015, funsway wrote:And maybe the best Retention Vanish is the one you never even knew happened... [/quote]




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IE the transfer not being recalled as relevant by an attentive audience or well informed magicians? Best ofluck in your work at that goal. On the other side of that objective is what the audience could report asmagical. Go for it. :)

Message: Posted by: evikshin (Feb 21, 2015 11:54PM)

As someone who uses the retention vanish quite often in his coin routines and gets away with it these days:), I do think that cutting down on finger motion is important, but it's importance is grossly stated. Just aboutevery great retention vanish has slight finger motion, whether it's David Roth's, Vinny's, or Mickey Silver's.However, it's the rhythm, patter, and timing which renders the finger motion invisible to a layperson with nomagical knowledge (though not necessarily to a magician).In terms of rhythm, having a right hand that lingers too long behind the left covering fingers is usually amassive tell, even if you can do the steal with zero finger movement! In fact when I first started, I learned thislesson the hard way, and was humiliated at my work place by a know it all (who in fact really did "know itall.").

Food for thought: the usual method of doing the retention vanish involves using the left hand (the take hand)to close over the right hand (put hand). The left hand effectively "screens" the dirty work done by the righthand, in other words, the steal is not done UNTIL the right fingers are completely covered by the left fingers.This has been the way the traditional retention vanish has been taught (See Bobo's). Obviously this wayworks, otherwise the teaching method would not have survived the past 75 years or so. But it is this bestway? Is it possible to do the steal before the left hand actually closes, with minimal cover??? Soundsimpossible and counter intuitive...


A whileback imentioned there was one magician that cam very close to what Mikey does thnd that person is Evikshin and is way to modest to say sothe last quest you said is it possible to do the steal before the hand closes . Evik you know it isand this is why mikceys suv is the best




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[quote]On Feb 21, 2015, Jonathan Townsend wrote:[quote]On Feb 21, 2015, funsway wrote:And maybe the best Retention Vanish is the one you never even knew happened... [/quote]

IE the transfer not being recalled as relevant by an attentive audience or well informed magicians? Best ofluck in your work at that goal. On the other side of that objective is what the audience could report asmagical. Go for it. :) [/quote]

Thanks for the clarifications. I have never been concerned over the fact that some in the audience may beusing a camera rather than their eyes. Guess I should be.

Years ago I predicted that a strolling magician could set up a device and allow the spectator to select andwatch their favorite magic effect on screen. No need to learn a POV at all!. Sooner than I thought.

...............

All that is required is making the Reveal asynchronous to the Transfer.

Most of the stated problems above seem to come from an immediate reveal of Vanish just after the Transferis complete. No luck involved.

By various Methods the Passing Hand can be shown completely empty before any Reveal.

or, the flow of the routine does not have the observer place any special attention tot he Transfer as part ofExpectation or Anticipation.

It is when the spectator Anticipates the Place/Take and Vanish that attention goes to the wrong place.




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When you do a POV type Retention Pass you are deliberately drawing attention to the coin and creatingAnticipation that something will happen to it. Thus, there is less Astonishment when it vanishes.

If one were to just count several coins into the other hand (say three) and the audience does not haveAnticipation that anything strange is about to occur,

then when one vanishes and appears elsewhere it seems quite magical. Check with Jonathan about 3Fly!

Oh, you are ;-)

The point is that is you draw focuses attention to your hands and the coin you lose some ability to complainthat they were watching your hands and guessing how it slipped away.

How can the effect be better framed is the question, not whose flash is better.

Vinny's method is followed by Table Rest of his Passing hand completely flat on the table with fingersspread.

Mickey frequently shows the the coin in still apparently in his left hand (but never is). The flash is just part ofthe illusion.

Part of the performer's task is to teach the audience what story to tell.


The above posts by Evikshin and Funsway contain some of the best advice on false transfers I have seenhere, period.

Thanks to both for their wisdom! You don't always get that here.




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Jim

Message: Posted by: RLMASKI87 (Feb 22, 2015 08:13AM)

I think David Roth says when it comes to practicing in front of a camera is that the camera doesn't blink. Forsome people tend to blink at the moment they do a vanish or a move because they want so much for it tolook good. I think in some instances doing the move in front of the camera is very helpful to what a spectatormay see.


A very personal take away I've learned from following Mickey around Massachusetts for his magic lectures isthat the last act necessary for completing a retention of vision vanish (for me), or any vanish, is to allow thespectaor to see the empty palm of the transfer hand BEFORE I show the vanish. This is entirely congruentwith what would be a real physical act of transfer. And it is a passive act on my part, i.e., I don't show it somuch as the spectator observes for him or herself that the transfer hand is now as it should be.....empty. Ithink Funsway calls this "pre-emptive guilt." I believe this little detail that comes at the end of the simpletransfer but before the reveal is critical to the entire vanish because it would complete the phenominon if thetransfer were for real. It serves as almost a subconscious convincer before the reveal of the vanish, and thenevery act of the simple transfer looks natural. Thus, the spectator is as Jonathan Townsend would say,"perceiving a simple flow of mundane action." For me this is as important as the "burn."

A great example to observe this technique repeatedly is with Mickey Silver's ear to ear coin penetrationroutine. Each coin penetration thru his ear and out the other is really a series of vanishes and productions.Each time a coin "enters" his ear, it visibily disappears in every respect from his transfer hand (open emptypalm of the transfer hand), BEFORE emerging on the other side - a natural result were it for real and, theperfect illusion. This is the technique upon which the entire illusion of penetration of matter rests and is just ascrucial for a simple vanish from hand to hand.




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Sorry for the long description - hope its understandable.

This is always an interesting topicchuck


Cperkins -- good thoughts

the fact that a series of vanishes and appearances is translated into motion by the human mind is one of the"secrets' upon which magic depends.

There other reasons to support that Transportation Effect are the most powerful magic effects you can do.The audience wants to believe that they can be somewhere else when needed or danger cals or they areembarrassed.

So, a Vanish can be a tool for greater things -- yet many performers turn it into a skill demonstration.

My "preemptive doubt" theory comes form decades of realize that "doubt" comes form confusion -- so,eliminate the confusion and there is no doubt.

The ideal False Transfer is where the coin is clearly seen to be in the Receiving Hand and the Passing handis clearly and completely empty. Any other "pretend at" risks confusion.

Now, such Fakes methods may be required by the framing of the effect, but the choice should not be "this ismy favorite POV or FakeTake."

I am helping Vinny document his methods so that more people can learn them -- not as a replacement ofwhat they now do, but as an alternative.




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I will slip in a lot of theory and psychology so that "just maybe" the performer can make the right choice fortheir next show.

Message: Posted by: cperkins (Feb 22, 2015 01:06PM)

Another example I might add to my post above; that in a vanish, paying attention to not only the receivinghand (i.e., the burn), but also of the subtlety that transpires in the "put" hand is what helps makes the magic ofMb217 so believable and powerful. He's a master of the Ramsey and its variants - not sure if this is also aMickey influence on him or an independently arrived at practice on his part - but its a heavy influence on hismagic and it is very effective.


Turn the sound off and watch the fingers of his rightt handhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXPS7OScY4Q

12-14, 18-20


A move is just a move. Its what you do with it that makes or breaks it. I think when people talk about the"best" move, they are talking about the context in how it is used. That would make more sense to me thensaying that analyzing a move in slow motion allows you to see a slight finger bend or some other tell. I amgoing to post a few retention moves a bit later (time permitting). You guys can compare and discuss if youwant. My feeling is that a move should never be seen out of context but seem in the context of how it is used.Some moves are better suited for specific situations, such as hand position at the time of the move.

Message: Posted by: CarpetShark (Feb 23, 2015 05:00PM)

This is one of the best threads I've read here in some time! Looking forward to seeing Doc's RoVs as well :)

Message:




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Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Feb 23, 2015 05:22PM)

Thanks Michael,

That's what I been trying to say for the last 30 years or so. Marlo Used to say " didn't it LOOK like he placethe coin in the Hand!!! " He was NOT!!! Saying how great Someone's Retention WAS!!! You should not sayanything You are just Putting the coin in the other hand! But it's about WHY are you placing The Coin In theother HAND ??? What your reason or motivation For doing That? As one of the old Masters used To Say. "The false Placement is only the beginning of the Vanish! " So you Should not Take all day to put in it there.That is not when the Magic Is Happening! Now what are you going to do next??? Is the coin going to jumpunder a card or a coin purse, Are you putting it in your Pocket An it's going to jump back out, or go trou thepocket? 30 or so sec's after the coin vanish's no matter how good your vanish was, A layman Mite thank "it'sIn the other Hand!" You Have to be able show that it's gone somewhere. Or Be able to ditch it Somewhere!SOOO it's all about The Flow of the Routine! And As Michael Say's " A move is just A Move" It About theMAGIC!!!


Amen!


A move is just a move except when showing it to a camera...vinny

Message: Posted by: fonda57 (Feb 23, 2015 08:44PM)

I've been doing a routine in which I "put" a coin in one hand and say it will turn into----but it vanishes, so I getanother from my pocket and try again. I don't say what it will turn into. I play it as though I am surprised that itvanished, and this happens two or three times, before changing into a blue rock, which then becomes a redrock.




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I think the idea that I didn't mean for the coin to vanish plays in my favor. Just for the fun of it I do a retentionpass once and have not been questioned. Not yet, anyway.

I got this presentation idea, which is mostly like a Spellbound, from when I stayed at the Red Rock in Vegasrecently.

I think a retention pass works best if you don't draw undo attention to it, like "I'm going to put this coin in myhand and it will vanish." Just do it and keep in motion as part of a routine.

Message: Posted by: David Neighbors (Feb 23, 2015 09:10PM)

Yea stuff Doing something you don't want it too Is Classic And goes a long ways Back. So I think that's agreat way to go!:)


Here is an example of three different retention vanishes. There are so many different techniques, I hope youenjoy these:https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=7z85ZHZTkck

Message: Posted by: evikshin (Feb 23, 2015 10:06PM)

[quote]On Feb 23, 2015, Michael Rubinstein wrote:Here is an example of three different retention vanishes. There are so many different techniques, I hope youenjoy these:https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=7z85ZHZTkck [/quote]

Kewl beanzz! Will uzz pls put up a tutorial on youtubez?? I will trade my ellusionist DVD'z for a tutorial vid,pretty pls?! pretty pretty pls?




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Totally kidding, just trying to poke fun at the typical youtube magician, which you are definitely NOT a part of.

No all jokes aside, thanks for posting that. Excellent smooth handling, love the retention vanishes, I also lovethe technique you use for the reproduction, your variation of the Masque Load. Have you thought about doingthe load with the coin in Marlo's Hold position (don't remember the precise name, but you use that hold inyour Wishing Well Routine to show flat fingers). I started doing the load from the aforementioned position,and it looks good. Maybe I'll have to put up a vid as well :)


Beautiful, Doc!! And I also love that variation of the L'Homme Masque load; haven't seen it done like thatbefore.

Thanks for posting the video.

Jim


Doc very nice I love the soft vanishes and the relaxed hands

one thing is your right hand thumb is mostly hidden, this is because you are on a angle.I would l;ike to see what the retention vanishes look like shot straight onvinny

Message: Posted by: Ado (Feb 24, 2015 03:01AM)

Wow. That first vanish... Is it pure SoH, or does it rely on octopalm or whatever? I've never seen that, and Ifind it bluffing, whatever the technique is...

P!




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Very nice -- especially a relaxed manner suggestive of extensive practice.

even better to see a routine of which these are apart. "How does one get there" -- "what comes next" and"why the transfer at all?"

Yet, the immediate return in stylish fashion may be enough to suggest perhaps "invisibility" rather than "otherhand."

and Vinny lead me to another thought. When any Transfer, real or fake, is do to the side does it not drawattention to the situation in an unnatural way?

A lay person would do the transfer in front of their stomach -- and probably a take rather than a put. Theturning to the side says, 'Hey look at what I am doing"

This is OK if there is some reason to then place the coin in a container on the left side, but why the turn just tohand off a coin.

Just musing. A fine line between "never happened" and "gotcha" or "entertainment" rather than "must bemagic."

Will the observer remember "he did amazing things with a coin" or "I didn't believe in magic until tonight, now..."

Message: Posted by: Michael Rubinstein (Feb 24, 2015 07:07AM)

First and last vanish is the ROPS move. second is the Variation Retention pass. Third is the ROPS retentionpass. recovery is the fingertip load. The other one is just fooling around. All of these and more are taught inthe Encyclopedia of coin Sleights, and the first two are taught anywhere you find my material. Filming a move




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does not do justice for its application. The side angle is just to give you a better idea of the burn since thefilming with the I pad on the table gives a weird upward angle. As I said, a move is just a move. It's how youuse it that's important. The ROPS move allows you to steal a coin off of the open palm as you close yourhand into a fist. If the coin is already in the left hand, it saves you needing to transfer the coin back to the rightin order to do a pass. The second one is used when you are placing a coin from the right to the left in anupward angle,much as standing and picking a coin up off the table, or from starting with the coin at waistlevel. It is the one I use most. The third is just a variation of the ROPS technique to prove a coin is reallyplaced in the hand. The coin is actually pressed down into the palm and no longer held. It loses a bit of theburn but is actually the most convincing since the coin is actually left in the hand and not held. Although this issubtle. My purpose of showing these is not to show off, but mearly to demonstrate that different techniques can stillgive you a great burn and be quite illusive. To compare a move out of context of its use is unfair. Mickeysmove is a wonderful pass. But what makes it special is not just the move itself, but how he uses it. The angleof his hands allows him to perform his signature coins in and out of his ears, etc. I cant do that with thepasses I have shown. It's a different type of movement, slower and more deliberate. Mickey puts a lot ofemphasis of the coin being in the hand, with a lot of gesturing, and pointing. These are very individualizedmoves that are unique to Mickey. They are part of his personality and work well with him. Put that togetherwith his facial expressions,and body gestures, and you can't help but enjoy the show. It's not the move, it's theman. They probably wouldn't work well for another, unless they have the same types of movements that comenaturally. My moves would look very different in Mickeys hands, as would his in mine. The point I am trying tomake is that all these moves are convincing, but it's the context of how they are used that is important.Vinny, the coin usually goes into finger Palm to make the wave after the pass, so the thumb is exposed. Forthe second type of load I held the coin in a kind of edge grip so the thumb is indeed a bit hidden. Thatposition was just for the purpose of varying the recovery. Sorry if the angle doesn't reflect that well. It's difficultto just demonstrate a move for a camera out of context. There are other recoveries and subtleties to showthe other hand also appearing empty but that wasn't the purpose of this clip.


Very nice Doc, simply put and quite elegant. Good job!




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And a lot of what you say here as to Mickey's use of the move and indeed the move itself, I agree with andhave been pretty much saying for quite a while here myself.

The move itself is pretty easy to do in the various ways it can be done to basically achieve the samedifference toward the basic goal of it all. Your 3 proofs show that well enough, as does the many examplesshared by Vinny and others as just the move and or within an effect. Simply (and as you pretty much put it aswell), Mickey is unique as himself and in his use of the move(s), which helps him to better create with justabout the same hammer & nail we all use pretty much as to this specific method. Dr. J, Larry Bird andMichael Jordan all did about the same "way beyond the usual" thing with a basketball and a hoop, orsomething like that.

Again, nicely done, and as always, it's one thing to explain something, quite another thing to just show it. And when you do, everyone sees well enough.

Have a good day everybody.

Message: Posted by: daniel116 (Feb 24, 2015 09:59AM)

What would you say about a combination between a retention pass and a spider vanish?https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIEd4K4kHOU&feature=youtu.be


It looks pretty good, but also a lot like what Doc sorta does with his vanishes. Mixing and matching things isonly natural as you build. Still, good job 116�Love the little quick play of it all. :)

Message: Posted by: Mano (Feb 24, 2015 02:24PM)

This is a demo on my take on the RV, I recorded several years ago with a few of its applications.I wassupposed to publish it with certain webside, but the guy left me hanging.Since this topic is about The RV




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which is one of my favorite topic and I made the video and has been in private forever :), I just wanted toshare it with you guys, remember this is just a demo, its not a routine whatsoever:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k68e9akgIY

I hope you guys like it.

-Mano

P.S.This is a routine using the move:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kADhFQ7KVsI


ALL POF YOU HAVE JUST WITNNESED THAT BEST COIN WORKER ON THE PLANET AND HE GETSNO CREDIT..or respectWHAT MANO DOES WITH THE COINS IS A THING OF BEAUTY AND YOU ALL NOTICE THAT HE ISfacing front with no side to side movements.......MANO PLEASE COME out WITH A dvd it has long over do. .his FCRV is increditable

vinny


The magic is that so many will share ideas and demos here


If yiou want to see a thing ovf beauty just ask mano to show you his mano lift and the mano alignment




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it kills everything out of the water. it has never been published magicians would die for these techniques


You're absolutely right Godfather, Mano is quite good and has been for years and years now. Remarkableworker, and truly one of the best kept secrets in coin & close-up magic anywhere. :)


Mano would have a lot to share with a lot of folks if he cares to.

Message: Posted by: Mano (Feb 25, 2015 10:26AM)

Hey godfather,Marion mi hermano. It has been a while.thanks for your kind words guys.

Cperkins, thanks. I tried for 5-6 years to publish some stuff,i spent months and months of rehearsing theroutines and the way I was going to explain them and then some of the people that were supposed to workwith me said that my stuff was too difficult and a bunch of other excuses, so I then decided to take a stepback and regroup, but I actually never regrouped, I really got disappointed and quit magic for 3 plus yearsand now that I'm back on track I'm more focus on gigs,i do hope to publish some stuff in the future howevernot at the moment.

Stay well everyone.

-Mano

P.S.

I in no way want to hijack this thread.From now on I'll stick to the main topic.

Message: Posted by: dj (Feb 25, 2015 11:14AM)




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Another thinkg of beauty of Mano is his "Wiped Clean" version.

Darko

Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Mar 7, 2015 09:46PM)

Mano - the video link says "This video is private." Have I missed something or done something wrong? Now Ireally want to see it:).

BTW, not to mess up the topic of the thread, but I run a couple of web businesses selling "info products,"which are video products that I produce. I hope I am not out of line saying this. I'm truly only trying to help. So ifsomeone has any videos they want to publish/sell, I MIGHT be able to help out there. I don't run a "magicshop site," but I could set something up to sell downloads. PM me.

Cheers!

Ken

Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Mar 7, 2015 11:25PM)

Hey Mano! So glad you've decided to get back into magic! I really hope to see more of your work.

Thanks!

Jim

Message: Posted by: Mano (Mar 9, 2015 11:54PM)




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Hi Ken.

I had it in private, here is the link again:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9k68e9akgIY

Hi Jim,

Thanks a lot my friend,I really appreciate it.

Be well everyone.

-Mano

P.S. Hey Jim how is it going with Hug :).

Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Mar 10, 2015 12:38AM)

Thanks Mano! Watching now (when I'm supposed to be in bed:-P).

Cheers!

Ken

Message: Posted by: KenRyan (Mar 10, 2015 12:40AM)

Awesome stuff Mano! Thanks again:).

Ken

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Message: Posted by: vinsmagic (Mar 10, 2015 03:30AM)

His front transposition is a killer as wellthank you for sharing mono vinny

Message: Posted by: J-Mac (Mar 10, 2015 06:25AM)

Very nice, Mano! As always! :)

Take care my friend.

Jim




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