11/2001VHS Auto1 Point type Ignition Flow Chart Auto 2 Trouble Shooting

11/2001 VHS Auto 1

Point type Ignition Flow ChartPoint type Ignition Flow Chart

Auto 2Auto 2

Trouble ShootingTrouble Shooting

11/2001 VHS Auto 2

11/2001 VHS Auto 3

Fixing something that is brokenFixing something that is broken How can you fix something How can you fix something efficientlyefficiently if you if you

don’t even know how it is broken?don’t even know how it is broken? To troubleshoot something that doesn’t work To troubleshoot something that doesn’t work

correctly you need:correctly you need:– To know how it is suppose to workTo know how it is suppose to work– The basics of how it worksThe basics of how it works– Critical thinking comparing what isn’t working to how Critical thinking comparing what isn’t working to how

it is suppose to workit is suppose to work– A logical process to eliminate the possible causes of the A logical process to eliminate the possible causes of the

problemproblem– Proper toolsProper tools

11/2001 VHS Auto 4

Trouble shootingTrouble shooting

If you had never seen an apple, never read If you had never seen an apple, never read about an apple, and no one had ever told about an apple, and no one had ever told you anything about an apple, it would very you anything about an apple, it would very difficult for you to tell me what is wrong difficult for you to tell me what is wrong with these apples.with these apples.

11/2001 VHS Auto 5

Trouble shootingTrouble shooting

It would even be more difficult for you to It would even be more difficult for you to tell me how to fix what is wrong with these tell me how to fix what is wrong with these applesapples

11/2001 VHS Auto 6

Trouble shooting for no sparkTrouble shooting for no spark In the same way, if you haven’t learned how we In the same way, if you haven’t learned how we

make spark in the ignition system, it will be make spark in the ignition system, it will be very difficult for you to figure out why an very difficult for you to figure out why an engine doesn’t have sparkengine doesn’t have spark

If you don’t know the basics of electricity, it If you don’t know the basics of electricity, it will be very difficult for you to diagnose what is will be very difficult for you to diagnose what is wrongwrong

If you don’t know how to use test equipment, it If you don’t know how to use test equipment, it will be very difficult for you to find your will be very difficult for you to find your problemproblem

11/2001 VHS Auto 7

Logical testing & eliminationLogical testing & elimination Hopefully you learned by now:Hopefully you learned by now:

– How the primary ignition system works to How the primary ignition system works to make sparkmake spark

– Basic rules to series and parallel circuits and Basic rules to series and parallel circuits and can apply the knowledgecan apply the knowledge

– How to select the proper electrical measuring How to select the proper electrical measuring tools and how to use themtools and how to use them

So now we need to learn how to use a So now we need to learn how to use a process of elimination to diagnose a vehicle process of elimination to diagnose a vehicle that doesn’t have sparkthat doesn’t have spark

11/2001 VHS Auto 8

There is usually more that one There is usually more that one rightright way to fix something way to fix something

The flow chart I have made for point type The flow chart I have made for point type ignition is just the way that is logical and ignition is just the way that is logical and works efficiently for meworks efficiently for me– By no means is it the only wayBy no means is it the only way

Since we don’t have a lot of experience yet Since we don’t have a lot of experience yet with diagnosis, lets use my method for with diagnosis, lets use my method for logically eliminating all the causes of an logically eliminating all the causes of an ignition system that is not working correctlyignition system that is not working correctly

11/2001 VHS Auto 9

Primary IgnitionPrimary Ignition We had better know by We had better know by

now:now:– Key on, points on, Key on, points on,

primary current flows primary current flows and creates a magnetic and creates a magnetic field around primary field around primary winding of coilwinding of coil

– Points open, magnetic Points open, magnetic field crashes inducing field crashes inducing high voltage into high voltage into secondary winding secondary winding creating sparkcreating spark

11/2001 VHS Auto 10

Draw primary ignition on back of Draw primary ignition on back of flow chart fairly largeflow chart fairly large

+ -

RUN

+-

11/2001 VHS Auto 11

Checking Conventional Ignition Systems

Is there spark from coilwire while cranking?

11/2001 VHS Auto 12

Using remote starter to crankUsing remote starter to crank

B+

S

11/2001 VHS Auto 13

Make sure you are checking at the proper end of wire

11/2001 VHS Auto 14

Primary ignition circuitPrimary ignition circuit

+ -

RUN

+-

11/2001 VHS Auto 15



With key on, IsThere power to “+”

Side of coil?

NO

11/2001 VHS Auto 16


+ -

RUN

+-

11/2001 VHS Auto 17

11/2001 VHS Auto 18

Making sure test light worksMaking sure test light works

11/2001 VHS Auto 19

Points closed

Points open

11/2001 VHS Auto 20


+ -

RUN

+-

If we didn’t have power to “+” sideof coil, what would be the causes?

11/2001 VHS Auto 21




Side of coil?

NO

Ballast resistor,wiring to “+”side of coil or

ign switch is open

NO

11/2001 VHS Auto 22


+ -

RUN

+-

If you have power to coil positiveThen you know this side of circuitIs doing it’s job and we can moveon What should we

Check next ?

11/2001 VHS Auto 23




Side of coil?

NO


ign switch is open

NO

Is there power to the“-” side of coil key on?

YES

11/2001 VHS Auto 24


+ -

RUN

+-

11/2001 VHS Auto 25

Must have primary wires for coil hooked up

11/2001 VHS Auto 26




Side of coil?

NO


ign switch is open

NO


YES

Crank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

11/2001 VHS Auto 27


+ -

RUN

+-

When we crank the engineWhat should the points do?

11/2001 VHS Auto 28

Must have primary wires for coil hooked up

CRANKCRANKCRANKCRANKCRANK

CRANKCRANK

CRANK

11/2001 VHS Auto 29


YES



Side of coil?

NO


ign switch is open

NO



of coil

NO

NO

STAYS OFF(NO VOLTAGE)

11/2001 VHS Auto 30


+ -

RUN

+-

So while cranking the engineThe light stays off

How much voltage should be left on the “-” side ofCoil with the points closed and current flowing?

How much voltage should be on the “-” side ofCoil with the points open?

11/2001 VHS Auto 31

Write on back of flow chartWrite on back of flow chart With voltage to “With voltage to “++” side of coil, there are ” side of coil, there are

only four things that will cause no voltage only four things that will cause no voltage to “to “--” side of coil while cranking ” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)(light stays off)

1. Points always closed1. Points always closed

11/2001 VHS Auto 32


+ -

RUN

+-

What else would causeThe light to stay off?

11/2001 VHS Auto 33

Write on back of flow chartWrite on back of flow chart

With voltage to “With voltage to “++” side of coil there are ” side of coil there are only four things that will cause no voltage only four things that will cause no voltage to “to “--” side of coil while cranking ” side of coil while cranking (light stays off)(light stays off)


2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil2. Open or grounded primary winding in coil

11/2001 VHS Auto 34

Open Primary windingOpen Primary windingDon’t forget to isolate one side of the coil

11/2001 VHS Auto 35


+ -

RUN

+-

What else would causeThe light to stay off?

11/2001 VHS Auto 36





3. Grounded condenser3. Grounded condenser

11/2001 VHS Auto 37

Grounded condenserGrounded condenser

11/2001 VHS Auto 38

Checking a good condenserChecking a good condenser

It will chargeup and goto infiniteresistance.

11/2001 VHS Auto 39





3. Grounded condenser3. Grounded condenser

4. Grounded wire between coil “-” and points4. Grounded wire between coil “-” and points

11/2001 VHS Auto 40

Shorted primary wire to groundShorted primary wire to ground

11/2001 VHS Auto 41


YES

Is there sparkwhile cranking?


Side of coil?

NO


ign switch is open

NO


NOCrank engine, does testlight blink on “-” side

of coil

NO

Let’s continue on

11/2001 VHS Auto 42


of coil

NO

11/2001 VHS Auto 43


of coil

NO

Are points always staying closed? LOOK

11/2001 VHS Auto 44


of coil

NO


Do coil test

NO

Adjust Dwell

YES

11/2001 VHS Auto 45


of coil

NO


Do coil test

NO

Adjust Dwell

YES

Replace

BADGOOD

Check for agrounded condenser

11/2001 VHS Auto 46


of coil

NO


Do coil test

NO

Adjust Dwell

YES

Replace

BADGOOD


BAD

Replace

GOOD

Primary wire between“-” side of coil and

points is grounded Repair

11/2001 VHS Auto 47


of coil

NO


Do coil test

NO

Adjust Dwell

YES

Replace

BADGOOD


BAD

Replace

GOOD



That takes care ofThe staying off side

#1

#2

#3

#4

11/2001 VHS Auto 48


of coil

NO


Do coil test

NO

Adjust Dwell

YES

Replace

BADGOOD


BAD

Replace

GOOD



Let’s go the

Other way

11/2001 VHS Auto 49


Is there sparkwhile cranking?


Side of coil?

NO


ign switch is open

NO


YES

11/2001 VHS Auto 50

Primary ignition Primary ignition circuitcircuit

+ -

RUN

+-


11/2001 VHS Auto 51


YES

Crank engine: doesTest light blink on

“-” side of coil?

11/2001 VHS Auto 52


+ -

RUN

+-

When we crank the engineWhat should the points do?

11/2001 VHS Auto 53


+ -

RUN

+-

So while cranking the engineThe light stays on

How much voltage should be left on the “-” side ofCoil with the points closed and current flowing?

How much voltage should be on the “-” side ofCoil with the points open?

11/2001 VHS Auto 54


There are only three things that will cause There are only three things that will cause voltage all the time to “voltage all the time to “--” side of coil while ” side of coil while cranking cranking (light stays on)(light stays on)

1. Points always open1. Points always open

11/2001 VHS Auto 55

Point always openPoint always open

11/2001 VHS Auto 56


+ -

RUN

+-

What Else wouldCause the lightTo say on ?

11/2001 VHS Auto 57




2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points

11/2001 VHS Auto 58

Open primary wireOpen primary wire

11/2001 VHS Auto 59


+ -

RUN

+-

What Else wouldCause the lightTo say on ?

11/2001 VHS Auto 60




2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points2. Open primary wire between “-” coil and points

3. Points not grounded or contacts bad3. Points not grounded or contacts bad

11/2001 VHS Auto 61

Points not groundedPoints not grounded

11/2001 VHS Auto 62


YES



NO

Are pointsalways open?

11/2001 VHS Auto 63


YES



NO


NO

Points are either not groundedor primary wire is open between

“-” side of coil and pointsCheck & repair

11/2001 VHS Auto 64


YES



YES

Adjust dwell to Specs

NO


NOYES



If the light blinkswhile cranking. .GREAT

It has to blinkTo have spark

11/2001 VHS Auto 65


YES



YES


NO


NOYES



If the light blinksand the dwell isset correctly

Is there spark?

YES

GREAT If vehiclewon’t start, restartat top of flow chart

11/2001 VHS Auto 66


YES



YES


NO


NOYES



If still no spark

Is there spark?

YES


NO

Test coil & coil wire

11/2001 VHS Auto 67

Checking Coil WireChecking Coil Wire

11/2001 VHS Auto 68

Open Secondary WindingOpen Secondary Winding

11/2001 VHS Auto 69

Open coil wireOpen coil wire

11/2001 VHS Auto 70


YES



YES


NO


NOYES



Is there spark?

YES


NO

Test coil & coil wire

BAD

Replace

GOODCondenser is either openor not grounded Repair

11/2001 VHS Auto 71

Checking a good condenserChecking a good condenser

It will chargeup and goto infiniteresistance.

11/2001 VHS Auto 72

Open condenserOpen condenser

It won’t charge up.Always at infiniteresistance.

11/2001 VHS Auto 73

Condenser not hooked to groundCondenser not hooked to ground

11/2001 VHS Auto 74

Weak SparkWeak Spark

Point type ignition should produce at least 20,000 Point type ignition should produce at least 20,000 volts (20 KV) which should jump up to at least ¼” volts (20 KV) which should jump up to at least ¼” and be blue in colorand be blue in color

Let’s write this up at the to right of flow chartLet’s write this up at the to right of flow chart Weak spark can be caused by:Weak spark can be caused by:

– Dwell out of specsDwell out of specs

– Bad coil (shorted windings, secondary open)Bad coil (shorted windings, secondary open)

– Bad condenserBad condenser

– Pitted points that arcPitted points that arc

NEW PITTED

11/2001 VHS Auto 75

We should be able to succeedWe should be able to succeed

Next time we are in the shop, you will have Next time we are in the shop, you will have 50 minutes to diagnosis and repair a vehicle 50 minutes to diagnosis and repair a vehicle that the customer complains of a that the customer complains of a “NO “NO START”START”

It will have at least one problem in the It will have at least one problem in the primary ignition system that causes no sparkprimary ignition system that causes no spark

You will also be responsible to make sure the You will also be responsible to make sure the dwell is set correctly before you give it back dwell is set correctly before you give it back to the customerto the customer

11/2001 VHS Auto 76

Questions?Questions?

11/2001 VHS Auto 77



YES

11/2001 VHS Auto 78

Spark at coil wireSpark at coil wire

11/2001 VHS Auto 79



Fuel system mustbe in order

Is there spark atone or two plug wires?

YES

11/2001 VHS Auto 80

Spark at plug wireSpark at plug wire

11/2001 VHS Auto 81





NO

Repair badcap or rotor

YES

11/2001 VHS Auto 82

Bad cap and bad rotorBad cap and bad rotor

11/2001 VHS Auto 83





NO


YES

Make sure firingorder is correctIs distributor

in time?

YES

11/2001 VHS Auto 84

Firing order and distributor in timeFiring order and distributor in time

Firing OrderFiring Order– Have to know which way distributor rotatesHave to know which way distributor rotates– Have to know firing orderHave to know firing order– Have to know where #1 plug itHave to know where #1 plug it

Distributor in timeDistributor in time– Remove #1 plug and Remove #1 plug and start upstart up on compression on compression

strokestroke– Turn by hand (less than ½ turn) to TDCTurn by hand (less than ½ turn) to TDC– See if rotor is point to #1 on capSee if rotor is point to #1 on cap

11/2001 VHS Auto 85

Firing orderFiring order

11/2001 VHS Auto 86





NO


YES

Make sure firingorder is correctIs distributor

in time?YES NO

Correct

If still have spark but won’t start, check formechanical problems (compression)

YES

11/2001 VHS Auto 87

CongratulationsCongratulations

Once we learn fuel systems, you should be Once we learn fuel systems, you should be able to able to efficientlyefficiently diagnosis why a car with diagnosis why a car with point type ignition won’t startpoint type ignition won’t start

11/2001 VHS Auto 88

Questions?Questions?

Documents

11/2001VHS Auto1 Point type Ignition Flow Chart Auto 2 Trouble Shooting