Embed Size (px)
Citation preview
100. Elia s Kunene :
And where did vou drink it? Before vou go t
to M~t~ti:le or ~fter you left Matctiele , 2nd before you
O'ot to the g'1t6 ? Will you just explain? ---- ,{e had alrendy
left M'1taticle . It vas on the way towards the gate .
'"[hat sort of liquor wns this ?---It was (5
brandy .
How ~uch?----The bottle was half, ther~ was
hnlf in the bottle . ThrG~ of us dr~nk . I c~n ' t s~v how
much he dr ... nk .
Who drank?----Sydney Dunn, the ~ccused ~nd(lO
myself .
irare you affected by the liquor tL'lt vau
h'1d?----1'I1"0 , it did nothing to T:le .
Svdnev Dunn, do you know lhn t his condition
vns ?----I\To, I don ' t kno'J becn.use '.ve then pnrtsd fro thcr . (15
Vihethcr ho vns drunk or ::.ot I don ' t know .
No',: id yeu approf'ch the :1.ccused to tr;ke
ou - to help you to f'et out of the country? ----No .
"ihcre is Cecil Nculi now?---- I henrd thn t he
was in Sw~zil'l.nd . ( 20
Durb'1n .
You don ' t know of your own knowledge? ----No.
Is he still in Durb'1n?----No he is not in
'Ile r t: vou i-1 possession of 2 p::tssport or '1ny
forn of Cl pErrrlit to lE;['"vG the Republic of South llfricn (25
'!TId go to Bnsutol'1nd?--- - No, I did not h'1ve '111V .
Did vou ever 'lpplv for ~ny tr'1vel dOCUT:lLnts?
-----No .
On the 17th July, this ve'1r 9 lost week , did
vou ~o wi th Detective T 'o.rr'1nt-Offic er 'Veider1Rnn to (30
QRcha ' s ITek? ----Th ... t is <-l0 .
Did you POilt out to Mr . We ide~ann the spot
where/~ ••
101. Elias Kun-ene:
where you , the accusea, and Cecil Nduli waited on the
rO:ld whilst Elias F'lku went to spe,qk to the constable
on the verandah?---- CCourt intervenes)
THE COURT : Whilst who o •• ?-
pnOf-lECUTOR~ The old man , the other man .----Yes .
Do vou know Nhat that old man ' s nRme is?
---- I heard that his n<1.me is Elias Faku .
Did you also point out to Mr . Weidemann the
spo t where the c onstable was on the ve r andah when this
old man , Elias FRku , went to him?---- Yes . (10
Did you '11so point out the spot where the
~ccused pa r ked the motor c'J.r?----Yes .
Is th~t where the motor car was parked when
you :111 walked up to the cate?----yes .
Lastly , did you point out the spot Nhere (15
vou ~nd Cecil Nouli went over the fence into Bnsutoland?
--- - yes.
Just to ~~d off your evidence, how do you
Loel now that you have ,0'iven evidence [lO"'1inst your
forner comr'ldes in the African National Conpress (20
~nd thF nccused?--- - Well I have , I want to tell the Court
th~t my fcelinps a r e that my sympathies are with
hi]"": , vour Worship . My 1Josi tion that I am in is such
th3t I Must ~ive evidonce RPainst him in the C'1se here,
but my sympathios are with him . l\nd also the thino-s (25
th:-'" t we Vlere strmd inp for, that wns the polici·;:.s of the
Afri can Na t ionql Conpross , I haven ' t chnnFed yet , as
far as they :lre concerned, I am still with them . And
also I just like to say that I don ' t think the position
that we are in here in Sout h Africa qt the moment will(30
chanpe in any way if we reso r t to vio l enc e . That is
all.
Ar e/ •.•.•
l02~ Elias Kunene:
Are you sctisfied with the way that thin.o·s
developed in the Africe.n National COIlfress?----No, I '1r:rt
not satisfied at 0.11<
dhat eives you this cause for dissatisf~ction?
--- -Wnll what ~nkes ~e dissatisfied is the ideq of some (5
people who w:.J.nt to put vivlenc e into t~e Afric'ln ~"ltionnl
Conp'ress and cOT1Jl1unism ..
Do you hGve any complaints about the TIanner
in which the police treated you after YOlr arrost and
detention? ----No o There is nothin~o (10
Just one further question, this m-n Sydney
Durm, did you know hirn. before this evenintr that you S8,W
him VIi th the Clceused in his car when you went to Q2.chn 1 s
Nck?-· ----Yes , I know hin .
V/he 1'0 did you know hi rYl fro m? - --'- I know ( 15
bin froe Durb'1n h8re 9 I know th'1t he is a student 9t the
uni vel'S i ty here in Durb[n~ ..
Do you know where he worked, 1[I11eth8r h9
W'1S workin~ at th'1t tiee, or where he "NaS vvoTkin C"?
-- ---·No .
no FUI,TH:Ull :!U.0S~\I ~1'i[:..J BY THE P.i\OSECUTOR ~
Now Mr. Kunene you told the Court ~t the
{ n" \ L ,
bE:.r-inn:'nr of your evidence th2t you went to Str-mdqrd four
in vour oducGtion?----Tb~t is so. (2)
After thc,t : vrhf'..':'-;- did 1rcm do ?-- - -itfter thnt
I s ts.rtcd '!JGrkin. - in DU:i:'b,"'.n .
~h~t w~s tt nature of the work? -----I started
~,vorkin~ 8.S ::l ki tencl ... boy.
l:..t that stDJTO how old were you?-· - --I v,'as 30
17 then.
For 110\, 1 on'~' d ic1 you continue in tlu t wo 1'k';>
- .--J UR t / ~ . " ,
l03 ~ Elias Kunene :
- _. ·_ - Just a short while . I don ' t remembe r exactly . But i-l;
was Ie ss than six months .
And aft er that what did you do?----Aft er that
I worked for a firm of builders and contractors .
As what?--- - A labour er . ( 5
For how lon~? · --- I think I mi~ht have worked
there six months .
And then?----Aft er that I was then eMployed
by the Analp8mated Packaeine Industries .
Also as a labour er ?----yes .
For how lon~?---- I worked there for ei~ht
yenrs .
Durine; this time did you make friends with
the men who were wo r kinf in this plac e?---- yp.s, that is
so .
Did you di~cuss th~ politicql situQtion of
the Africqn in South Afri. 3?----Yes , th3t is so •
. d.nd at the end of this eie-ht years what did
you do?---- I was fired from my work a t the Amalpamated
Pnckqpin. Industries .
The re~son beinea .. ?----It was throuph my
politic~l activities inside the f3cto r y .
What were they?----Well I was or~anisinp
peopJe to join the Afric,n National Confress .
(10
(15
(20
That W'1S durine the time? of course, thJt (25
it was still lawful?----Yes .
Was the South lifricnn Con gress of Trnd e
Unions est-:;,blished at th8 '- tine?--- - Tha t i3 so .
~nd did Borne of your work ~o to persuadinp
people to join the trade unions? -----Yes .
And when you we r e finally dismissed by I .
A.P . I . what did you do?---- I was then a full - time
or.aanis e r /:> . "'I ~
( 30
104. Elias Kunene:
or~aniser of the African National Coneress .
H~d you not at any stage perhaps have been a
tcacher?----No .
And did you remain a full- time oreaniser of
the African National Conf,ress until it was b~~ed in April(5
1960?----For a shor t whil, I left beine an oreaniser of
the African National Congress , when they were short of
funds, but then I went back aeain until 1960 0
Yes , the year in which you left A~P . I . would
bc? - ---The year I left A. P . I q was 1955 ~ (10
Now can I assume that during the time that
you were at A. P.I . , and tho time that vou were a full-time
orenniser in the A. N. C. you pot a fairly good knowledge
o~ political ~ove~ents of Africnn people in South Africa?
---··--·Th'Lt is 80,
V/ould it bo correct to say that you found a
EreRt interes t in politic 1 ~attcrs amon~ most African
people becnuse they were affected by th0 laws of this
country?-·--- Yes, I would sny it was so .
(15
In fact there was a very clear denonstration(20
of this im:;e:~8-jt oy the :c"'esponsc: to thu ])efinnce Cqr'lpRj.::n
in 1952, isnft that so? - - --Yes , that is so .
Now if one we re to mention a few of the
movements th'1t hnve erov·,n up amon;::, African people it would
h(' correct to speok of the non- European Unity Movement (25
as one of them? Would that be ri~ht?----Yes .
And later? when the split with A. N.C .
cTvle, there was the rise 'f the P. A. C. ? The Pan- Africanist
Conprcss? - --- -Yes,
In addition to th8.t in various locations (30
throughout South Africa people ~athered together in
residents' '1s8ocin~ions7----YusQ
Sometimes/~ • " ~ .
105. Elias Kunene:
SOr.J.etil'YJes instead of these being cnlled
CL residents' [tssociation it was called a residents '
CCT[lTYli ttee?-----yes ~
And certain groups als o suppor t ed the
~dvisory Boards?----That is so.
Now there wad a lso the South African
Congress of Trade Unions?----Yes.
Which , briefly, is a federation of Afric~n
trade unions?----It is a federntion , but not only a federation
of the Africqns . (10
Yes, but it really is, well it is one of the
prinCipal links amone African trade unions in 00uth
Afric'1?----yes.
And in addition to that there is olso nn
or~~nisntion known as the Federa t ion of Women?---- (15
Yes.
At ono time ce_'t'1in of these bodies were linked
top,ether in an aSSOCiation which is eene rally known as I '
the Conpress Allianc o?----- I want you to explain which
bodi,es? (20
Yes, well before its banning the Africnl1 National
Congress; South Africnn Indian Confress, the South
Afric'1n Coloured Peoples' ASSOCiation , S . A.C . T. U., qnd
the r,onfress of Democrats : would that bo correct?-- - -
Yes, that is so . (25
~nd what united the r.J.eMbers of thes e various
organisations was a common interest in the problems of
whn t they r Of:r:.rd ed wns tt !I oppress ed pe oples of South
Africa ll?-----Yes, I believe it was so .
Now just by way of example , every African (30
with '1ny political interest a t 811 1 I take it , was ,
opposod to the Pnss Lmvs?----That is so .
And/~ .•••
106 ~ Elias Kunene:
And it didn ' t matter whe ther he wns a member of
the non- European Unity Movement, the P. A. O., or the
A . N.O.? ----Th~t is so.
In the same way , in r0eard to the fact thqt
African people a re not - do not have their trade unions (5
r8co,o;niseii under the Inc1udtrinl Conciliation Act , every
African had the same point of view on that matter?----
Yes.
And then, without ~oing into detail, one could
RO on throuRh all the lc~islation that is on the statute (10 . -
book of the Republic, to show how African people were really
united in their opposition to these laws where they
discriminated against the African people?~----Yes , that
i C' so .
Would it be correct to say that in your (15
experiencG , during the period of the existence of the
Afric'ln Eational 'C;ona;ress as a Inwful ore:<:misati on, one
of its most outstanding characteristics was its opposition
to the use of violence?----That is so .
In fac t one could snv it was a fundamental (20
~riDciple of the African National Congress?----Thst is
so.
The very foundation stone of it?----As far as
I know , yes .
And it was clemonstrsted by the methods that(25
were used in the Definnce Cnmpaien in 1952?----That
is so .
.t'..nd in short t'"1 t Definnc e Cn,mpnie;n was a
non-violent protest against the laws?----That is so .
Now thnt form of defiance was made unlawful (30
by the Criminal Law All.endment Act of 1953?-----Thnt is
so~
And/., • • ~ •
107 . EliC\s KunC'ne:
And it virtu~lly ceased after 19531----Yes .
Novertheless$ ~lthough that was forbidden
o..s 0.. form of protest, the ~lfricRn N'1tion::tl Coneress did
not EO over to violence?----That is so .
It continued to make its criticisms of the (5
l~ws of the 19.nd as it hnu done previously?----That is
so~
Now did you know the structure of the Afric1.n
N~tion~l Congress before its banninB in 1960?----I knew
it . (10
Is it corrlct th'1t it W3S overned by n
constitution?----Yes ,
lind its nffo..irs were run in accord'1nce wi th thnt
constitution?----Th'1t is so.
There was a president?----Yes. ( 15
Thore were cert~in office-belr~rs? ----Yes .
There WQS , so ~o spe~k, a n~tion~l conference
whose rssolutions would bind the whole of the or~nnisation?
---- Yes .
"~nd wh'1 t ever 'pork was d one in finy '1re3S of (20
South ~frica was governed by decisions th,t were t~ken
fror tir"e to tiTl1e nt the conference?----That is so ,
In '1 sense one could say that th1.t conference
was re~lly n kind of parliaMent that nade the laws for the
nOT'1bers of the Hfric'1n Fz:ti on'11 ConCTress to obey?-- --(25
Th'1t is so .
~nd one thcn eave obedience to those laws if
YOU wore 10y'11 to the Afr~c'1n National Conpress?-----
Yes ..
Now '1S is usu'11 in OrE'1nisations, when a (30
person joined it, in the d'1ys before its bnnnine1 he
was issued with Q l1embership c~rd?--- -Th~t is so .
il.nd/ •• ~ . ,
108~ Elias Kunene:
.i1.::1d that renlly was the proof of his membershij,J?
'r ,-.--- -.L C S ~
L:1d Q person h1.d to pay a subscription to be
in pood standing?- -- - yes.
And if he didn ' t pay the membership fee in (5
(iue COUTse thR.t membership Inpsed?----Ycs , that is so.
And one of the pr ivileges of being a nernber was
the ri,ght to vote at the National Conference of the African
No.tional Conrress , if a person was sent as a delegate?-- -,-
Ycs~ (10
In othe r words the body was orf~nised More or
less nlonB the lines of FlOst forMS of association as we
kn')' thcM. Tho.t is throueh votine; rights, membership,
office- benrers, nqtionnl conuress and so on?-- --Yes , that
is so. (15
Now tile AfricQY1. Nntion'11 Con'3 r ess nt one time
lyltl [l 'tGry 'N:.i.d e following chroughout South Afr ica?--- -
More especially before the br eak with the P.A . C.?
' .. ---The r8 1.\,T'1S [1 p;reo. t followin,o: !lfter it had broken (20
Wlo. y i/ i t n '"G 1.1 e P . 10 C •
But it also had, since 1912 , over all the yenrs,
:. f:1irl y lHE followine c.ll.onc; Afric'l.n people , d idn r t i t?----
Yee, th'1t is so, even if I wasn't 1;1 member yet at that
stn~e. But I know it was so . (25
Neve?:'theless there v/cre f~irl '{ laree numbers
of pe ople 1vho h'l.dn ' t joined the African N3tionnl Congress
ever?,· --, (IN',rERPRETER: m) had not? )
Who h'1d no~ .-----Yes , there were q lot.
People, however , were greatly interested in (30
tile nffn.irs of the Afrtcan N3tion'1l Conrress?,-- --
N011 I believe it WQS so ,
Vi G 11/ It • , • 0 •
109. Elias Kuneneg
:lell when you say you believe it, Mr. Kunene,
vour own work as ~n orp~niser , even when you worked for
L.P.I. I take it th~t ~iscussions of the A. N.C . ? About tho
L . N. C. took plc.ce even by people who weren t t rreI!lbel's of tllC'
l'..IJ.C . bec'1use it Wo.s re2.11y 3 national body among the (5
l'1.fric'1n pGop12?·,--.-Thnt iE: 30 .
So that i t 0idn ' t necessarily follow, did it,thnt
because Q person nttended sone ~atherinE of the A. N.C.
th'1t be was n nember of the ;~ . N . C . ?----YGS, it was so
:J t the tine the 1~. N. C. was not bo.nncd yet .
I underst~nd by th'1t answer th~t you o.re
'1{'Teeiw with 1I1e?~--- I n~ree th2t Q person went to D.
(10
g'1 therinp- or me etine of the l'>.fri C'l.n NCltionnl Con,r.l;rr·;s s when
it W3.S still :l lawful ore;--:nisation before it was b'l.nned,
~nd wns not necessarily a menber of the ~.N . C.?(15
----yes, th,·:t is tTt-;.ec
No~ you told hi[ dorship that you know the
Rccused, '1nd you hnd SGen him at T'1eetines of the ~ . N C,
since its banning?-- --Before its bo.nning?
Since its bO' •. '1.ning?-----Yes."
::: t')l~c it '~h;J: i:; you. 6011:~.i T'1[::re 0J.1Y allc[';ntio-:"
th.'..t bcc"J.use he was o.t those 1'leetinps of the ~i . N. C,
before its bo.nnin., he vms 5 nenber of the L. N. C . ? - - - -
No,
(20
Now whCtt W'1S your position in the 1l..N,C. on (2~
the 8th .april, 1960 when it W'1S banned? ---- I WetS n full
tiT'1e orp,1.niser of the Lfrican I'iI'1tionCll Coneress Clnd I VJ8,S
'1 membc;r of the Provinci:') Exccuti ve of the ii.friccm
N~tion~l Conpress.
:By the Provincial Executive, do you T'1can the (30
one in Nntal?----The one in N~t3l .
You concentr--:ted your work in Natnl?----
Yea. / ,~
110. Eli'1s Kunenc~
Yes,
And it V/[lS in Nntal thnt you. j;lOved about?----
Yes .
You never occupied any nation31 position did you?
----I W'1S once elected to the NationRl Committee of the (5
Youth League , which is ~~ nuxilliary body of the
Afr1cn.n N:ttionql Conrress .
It is not a senior body, though, is it?----
No.
And you therefore didn't occupy , apart from (10
this position on the Youth Corn~ittce, YOU didn 't occupy
n nation'11 position?-----No c
Now Mr. Kunene I take it that upon the banning
of the ~\fric'1n N'1 ti onal C one-ress a Eren t deal of d isord er
"!ond confusion arOSG among people who were forrterly ncmbers (15
of the ~ . N.C . ? ----Yes, there W'1S .
Hnd obviously that carle about bec')use it was
now unlnwful to be n r'le1'lOer?----Ycs ? thn.t was so #
j~nd for exanple? well let rrte put it to you
this vmy 1 it becane e;encl"''111y known th2 tone couldn 1 t (20
carry the embler! of the ,', . N. C. and wen.r it in one ' s
Inpel , which used to be the case?----Sofle knew , eOrle did
not know .
lind cor1T'1unicrJ. tion be C8.ne d ifficul t and
dnngerous?-----That is so.
The possibility of c81linc; '1 n'1tioTI':l1 cow-ress
of the 11 . N . C. vms non- existent?----N 0 , you co uld :cot do
that .
lI.Dd in fact such a con ~ress never ever took
(25
place?----Yes s there wns one. (30
I vnnt you to understnnd me clearly . "X/hen I
say there vias not one I am sugfesting to you thnt there
was/ ...... .
111. Elias Kunene:
W3S not a confress of all the paid-up TIembers of the
Afric an National Congre ss who , before the banning , would
h:we been entitled to vote at a NatiGmll.l o'ongr ess?----
Yes , that is so , but the fact was still th£1.t a man could
not go to the Mee tings of the Afric an National ConBress , (5
if he was not a menbe r .
Now you say th~t a conBress was called? ---
(Mr . Unterhalter adds) A National congress?----J national
conference .
Vie mustn ' t di ffe r as to the meaning of our (10
words , Mr . Kunene . Let 11e put to you the meaning
thQt I attach to the word . What I am trying to convey
to you is a conference similar to the upre~e body tha t
had controlled the affeirs of the A. N. C. before i ts
banning . Now is th~ t what vou ~ean , or do you Mean (15
something else?---- What I mean by conference is the
conference where a ll people could hRve gone to who were
DeTIbers, before the African N:t tional Congress wr.s b'1.nned .
'.Iell perhnps ,,'e ought to ana lvse it to see if
there is ~ difference between you ~nd TIe or not .
When the supror1e n'3.tion~l conference or meeting was
c'1.11ed •... (Court intorvenes)
THE COURT : ~ell now Nh~t wo rd are we go ing to use
"confc,:,cnce " "congress" or both? Mr. Interpreter,
(20
'3.re you putting that into Zulu, or are you using the (25
English expressions?
INTERPRETER : No , I ' m using the English expressions .
The Ii. i tness is '11so usinC the English expressions .
MR. UNTEBlIl .. LTER : Your -:forship, perhl.ps it v: ould be TTlo re
convenient to use the "'ord "congress" .
THE COURT : Yes, the rB'1S0n why I r3ise the question
( 30
is '1.t the commencement of your cross-ex'J.rnin3tion you used
the/ • .••.
112. Elias Kunene:
the vord "conference " - national conference . Now we
are using the word "congress " and I don ' t know whether
there is any significant difference between the two and
whether you are going to highlight t hat or whether it is
fortuitous that the word be used interchangeably. (5
MR. UNTERHALTER: It ' s fortuitous , your Worship, but
perhaps on second thoughts one might use the word
"conference " because it n i ght be confuse with "congress "
as the title of the A. N. C.
THE COURT: Yes , I have no feeling one way or the other, (10
as long as we are using the words advisedly . Either
"conference " or "congress " and it is brought home to the
interprete r and the witness that there is either no
s i gnificance in it or there is significance in it . Because
we nust remember that the Interpreter also has his (15
problems . I don ' t know Vofhether you can draw a distinction
in a single wo r d in the Zulu language between"conference ll
and "congress II ? Can you Mr . Interpreter?
INTERPRETER: No .
MR . UNTERHALTER RESUMES CROSS - EXAMINATION : (20
Mr . Kunene, let Be put it to you this way .
According to the constitution of the A.N . C. there was a
procedure for electing delegates to the national conferenc€
of the A . N . C . ?~---That is so .
And as is usual in most political parties (25
it is the form of meetings in various areas throughout
South Africa?----That is so .
so .
is so .
Every branch then having its meeting?----That is
The neeting had to have a quorum? -----That (30
And the people who attended the meeting had
to/ • . •••
113 . Elia s Kunene:
t o be properly paid- up members of the A. N. C.?----That is
so .
A delegate was then proposed and seconded?----
Tha t is so .
And if the r e was mor e than one t here was voting? ( 5
----That is s o.
And the majority vo t e meant that the person who
got it was the delegate?----That is so .
And then each branch dis cussed resolutions tha t
had to be put befo r e the national conferenc e?----That (10
is so .
And if those resolutions were adopted by the
branches then the delegates took those resolutions to the
conference for pr oposing and discussion?----Tha t is
so . (15
It would be fair to say that it was a thoroughly
democratic pro cess?----Tha t is so .
And it was the best machinery tha t the African
people could devise at that time to express t he will, so
to speak , of the African people?~---That is so . (20
And it was possible because people could mee t
freely in br anches?----Tha t is s o.
People could pay their fees Quite openly? ~---
That is so .
People could dis cuss Quite openly in the (25
br anches?--- - That is so .
And generally delegates c ould travel, there
might have been difficulties under the Native Urban Areas '
Act , but they could travel t o a centr al point to take part
in a nationa l confe r ence?-----That is so . (30
And it was very often at these conferences
tha t the African leaders took the opportunity to talk to
the/ •••••
•
114 . Elias Kunene:
the African people? ----That is so .
The African people throughout South Africa
read the newspapers to hear what was going on at these
conferences?----yes .
And would it be fair to say that they
often got enoouragement, even inspiration from the messages
that the leaders sent to the people through the conference?
----That is so ,
I take it that people were , in those days before
the banning, careful to see that things were done (10
constitutionally?----yes .
The chairman would keep order at a branch meeting,
shall we say?----Yes , that is so _
And he would see that the constitution that
gove rned the congress 9 its branches or its region was ob- (15
served ?----yes .
So that by and large people were satisfied that
when resolutions finally came out at the national conference ,
they were proper constitutional resolutions carried accord
ing to the rules of the body?----That is so . (20
TIoes this procedure that I have been describing
to you bear any rese~b1ance to the ' indaba ' that takes
place in tribal society? In the sense that people are
given full opportunity to say what they have to say?----
That is so . (25
I have just been asked whether you have
been to an ' indaba ' _ TIo you have a knowledge of some of
these tribal ueages?----yes , I have been already? but it
is not a place that I ' m used to going to .
Well nevertheless as a person whom I
assume is interested in the affairs of his people you
have got some knowledge of these tribal usages?----
Yes , / . _ •••
(30
115 . Elias Kunene:
Yes , I have some knowledge, but not a full knowledge,
because I do not stay in the reserves where the people
normally have these ' indabas . 1
Now talking not in tribal terms but in urban
terms , which I pr esume you understand better . (5
Is it fair to say that it is a characteristio of t he
African people on the whole that there must be q full
and fair and free deMocratic discussion on the matte r ?
----yes , that is so .
I would like to return to what you said a (10
little earlie r when you referred to a national confe r enc e ;
you said that one took place after the banning, if
I understood you correctly?~---Yes .
Now would you tell his Worship where did this
take place?----It was at Lobatsi in Bechuanaland . (15
'vvho attended i t ?----People who went to the
conference were people who were members of the Regional
Comn itteos who came from the branches in the different
towns .
~Nere you present at this meeting?----Yes , I (20
was present .
How did the credentials of the people who
attended at Lobatsi compare with the c redentials of people
who used to attend the national conferenc e before the
A. N. C. was banned?---- flell there was no difference (25
because anybody who was a leade r of a delegation he was
asked whether all the people who were there at the
conference , whether they had pe r mission to be there , and
they said yes they wore allowed to be ther e .
How can you be satisfied that every one of (30
the people who attended in Lobatsi came by reason of having
been elected at a branch meeting in t he par ticular area
that/ • . ••.
116. Elias Kunene:
that he representBd2----They were nat elected at a branch
meeting . After thB A. N. C. was banned, when it was under
ground these people were appointed to go to a conference .
So you will agree with me that in that respect
there was a difference between the way the Lobatsi (5
conference was constituted and the way the A. N.C , national
conference ordinarily was constituted?----Yes, as far as
the people .
In other words, would it be correct to say
that certain people who had been members of the A. N. C. (10
before it was banned had taken it upon themselves to mee t
at Lobatsi for the discussion of certain matters that
concerned them, the people who were gathering together?
----No, that is not so .
Well would you give me your version?---- (15
Well as far as the conference at Lobatsi was concerned?
a letter came, I would say a directive from the national
executive of the Afric2n National Congress that suggested
people that should go to the conference who were l~embe rs
of the Regional Committee of the African National
Congress .
Is it possible for you to tell his Wo r ship -
I don ' t know if this is an unfair ques tion to you , tell
(20
me if it is - is it possible for you to tell his Worship
whether the African National Congress - the national (25
conference of the African National Congress had ever
authorised a procedure such as this at any of its meetings
before it was banned?-----Repeat your question again?
You have described to us that a certain order
appa rently came down from the national executive (30
and if I understand you, in brief the order was to the
effect that people should ga ther together in Lobatsi?
----(The/ •••••
I· .
11'7. .. Elias Kunene:
----( The Court intervenes)
THE COURT : No , no he said a letter came from the national
executive that suggested people tha t should go to the con
ference that were members of the Regional Committee of the
A. N.C . That is wbat he said .
MR. UNT ERHLLTER : You have heard what his Worship has said?
----yes, I said that .
Now my question to you is do you remember of
your own knowledge whethe r any conference, national
confe r enc e of the L. N.C . befo r e it was banned , had (10
authorised a procedure such as this?----You mean to
- all I know is that the African National Congress before
it was banned adopt ed a resolution that if it was banned was their
then it wo uld go und erground., and tha t/reso lution of a
national confe rence .
'Vhere was the national conference held that
adopt ed s uch a r esolut ion?----It was in Durban , in the
Y. M. G. A. , Be~trice Street .
( 15
What was the da t e of it?---- I don 't reJ'11er.1ber the
date too well , but I know the month was December, 19 5 9~ (20
"\nd were tlinutes of that particular meeting
kept?---- I don ' t know whe ther there were ninutes taken
a t the conference or not, but it was a national conference
and the one who was supposed to take them was the
Secretary-Generq l of the l eN.C. Whe ther he did or not (25
I do not know .
And who was he at the time?---Tha t WRS Duma
Nokwe .
Who presided over the conference a t tha t time?
----It was Govan Mbeki .
itnd was there any direction as to form the
underbround movement should take, or was i t just left
baldly/ • • • • • •
(30
•
118,. Elias Kunene:
bnldly like that , that they should go underground?
----- There was no way said in which it was going to
work but it was left into the hands of the national
executive to say the ways in which it would operate once
it was banned . (5
And who was the national executive at that
time?----I don ' t remember all of them, but I know thRt
Chief Luthuli was the President- General at that time.
Duma Nokwe was the Secretary- General . Oliver Tnmbo was the
Deputy National- President . Dr . Laetele was the (10
Treasurer- General .
THE COURT: Is that the same man that you say you saw in
l'v1aseru?----Yes , and a lot of others who were menbers . I
don ' t remember them any more .
MR . UNTERH1'~LTER: \/hen you give these names , is it of (15
your own knowledge that you know that people of these
names occupied the positiJn on the National Executive, or
is it from information th'lt someone else gave to you? - - -
My own knowledge ,
How is it that you came by that knowledge? (20
----I was there when they were elected.
Nere they all pr esent?----Some of them were
not there .
Because they were not permitted to be at
gutherings, not so? ----They were not permitted to be (25
at gatherings .
And nothing that they said could be reported
at the gathering?----Not dt that time.
You say in December 19~9 was it lawful to
report the saying of a man who had been banned from (30
attending n gathering?----As far as I know that was the
position .
Well , /" • * ••
119 . Elias Kunene:
Well I am not sure myself when tha~ was - well,
we will check up on the law.----It was only last 'lcar that
that law was passed .
Yes, I understand that this law beoame effecti\le,
so the prosecutor tells me now , in 1962~--.--Ye8y it (5
might be so , I ' m not too sure .
Well the point of the quest:':"0~1? really, is tlns.
Was any indication given at the meeting that thoso particular
people accepted such appointment?----0ell that is so.
Every time somebody was elected there was never any~hing (10
that happened to show that he did not accept ~he posi~lo~
to which he was elected .
But similarly there vyasn it anything to sho'.'
in the case of those who were absent too t they haC: 3cccpt€;c1
the position?--- - Yes , at that meeting 'Gher8 ';w.s nOI;h~,nt; CL)
then to indicate, but after a time, whrn thev had boen
elected, there was nothin~ then that hnppe~ed to shc~
that they did not accept their positions, like ~hc S8~retDrv-
General , for instance •
.i~t what date did the Lcba:tsi meetlTIg -Cake (20
place?---Between the 27th 3.~d the 2~~'~(l O.~ c(,oo.C'~ lr;F,'3~
011. 1962 . (INTEHPHETEH ~ Th0 witne"s 00ryects himdElf, ""1 ' • .,. '. .)l., • I
That WQS the Lobatsi conference,
Who was pres ent .'1JY1ong tl'lc s e11i 01' offic C - bca.rcr3?
Oliver TaMbo was there u Gov~n Mboki was tharo .
And others who were there toon Ii, ~ot suye whet~er
were part of the nationn l executive e' r no'c 9 b l~ 'cho':
were the ones who held t~ confe~ence th8re. Those who w~r~
in charge of the conference at the ~io2.
Is that all too t you can rerr-lember? .--.-IJ~:r o::'c dQS ( 30
Moses Kotane and Dan Hlume" And other3 1N~10m 'N'"' 1/;E:re tola
worked for the 1l.frican lbtional Congress, bu'~ 0'XC~ i 'll-:
C< ()'"'" "t' / ..J lAV. f'I.~ 'O ..
Elias Kunene:
YC'l l lll' J.C"L, p l '='8E'0) Mr. Kunene, not tell us what
Wt'lB t,-l l ,1 V\1 1l ;'J' other ~)O 0::,..10 , unle ss I pnrticularl y ask
',.'" 'P,~ · '11)"'· .... what you are then giving is hearsay evidence~
I haven ' t asked for it .
Now you go on to say in your evidence that
"we started forming brc:mc.hes of the 1',. N. C. at Lamontville • •• "
No I haven ' t suggested any time, I just say that in your
evidence y)U made this s-G,ltOf.1.Cnt: " Vi started forming
br anches of the ~l.N . C. at Lanontville, Kwa Mashu , Durban(lO
Central," and in the context of your evidence- in- chief
this follows after the banning of the il . N. C. on the 8 t h
April 1960?----Tbat is so .
Can you tell us when you started to form these
branches?----i}e started forming tbem in 1961. (15
Approxi:lI.Eltcll' v{hat month?----I'm not too sure
any more of the date but it was during July, going on
for liUgus t .
Now you called them branches of the A. N. C. ?
~----That is so .
'viben do you say '! we started forming them"
who do you include in the term "we " ?---- I menn the
(20
Durbc:m Regi onEll C om'C'li ttoe of the ;\f."lcan Nati anal Congress .
And bv virtue of what quthority did the
Durban Regional Committee of the African N3tional
Congress"" do this work9 l1sr1elv form these branches?
----It got the authority fron tho National Executive of
the Jdric'1n National Congr(~8s .
Hovv do you 1mVN that?---- It was mentioned
(25
by Wn l ter S isulu , he said it to TIe . He said that he (30
had been sent by the No.tionnl Executive and we were told
to form brmlches of tho (\.fric8n Nationa l Congress .
How /.0 •• ••
12.1 ~ Elias Kunene~
How did YOll know th8t he was authorised
apart. from what he sajj to you?----I believed when he said
that he was sent by the African National Congress
because I knew him as a person who had come into contact
with the National Executive .
You assumed , In other words , that what he ,
was saying was correct?----Yes 7 I had to elieve him
because he said what he was telling us he was sent .
There was no r eason for me not to believe him.
But you were not personally pr esent at
any meeting of the National Executive that authorised
1~alter Sisulu in this mission?~---No , I was not at that
meeting, because I was not a member of the National
Executive .
THE WITNESS STi..NDS DOVvT :
THE COURT TAKES THE LONG j\.DJCURNlI,lIENT:
ON RESUMPTION:
ELIAS KUNENE: (still UIlder former oath)
MR . UNTERH"\LTER RESUMES CROSS- EXiI.MINATION :
(5
(10
( 15
it the adjourmllent you told us that 1iValter (20
Sisulu had cone down.--- - That is so.
My question enrlier than that had been that
YOU said in your evidence- in- chief "We started forming
branches of the A. N.Co"----That is so .
What did you Elean by the word "We "? Who did(25
that include?---- I meant to say we , the members of the
Durban Regional Comnittee of the African National
Conference .
I take it you were all very well aware that
in engaging in that work It was unlawful wo r k?--- (30
That is so .
}md I take it that everyone who was
approached/. r •••
122 . Elias Kunene.
approached in private?----That is so .
And obviously thnt was done so that the work
should be secret?----Yes .
Now you reforred to the Mandella or ' M:Plan
and you s2id that Mandella was one of the members (5
of the J~ . N.C. before it VlbS banned?----Yes , that is so .
Did you kno v that of your own knowledge?----.
Yes .
Or merely by' the things you had he9.rd from
others that he was doing, a l!lan of that name? ·---Re- (10
peat your question again?
Did you perhC1..ps merely know he was a T'l.ember
f rom wha t you had heard he was doing as reported to you
by other people?----1 knew him to be a nember because I
had seen him at a meeting talking, addressing the
meeting .
You inferred fJ:'om that that he was a member?
-----1 knew then that he was a nember because at that
stage he was President of the African National Congr ess
in the Tr ansvaal .
Had you been told he was President?---1 was
told .
You went on to s~y that Milner Ntsangane was
sent by the National Executive to introduc e the 'M '
Plan?----Yes .
;I.re we to understand that in exactly the same
way th3t you assumed the credentinls of Sisulu vou
assum8d the Quthority of Ti lner?----Yes 9 I helieved the
same vJaY with Milner l'Hsangane , because before "/al ter
(15
(20
(25
Sisulu left he told us thqt Milner Ntsnngane would (30
come down and introduce the ' M' Plan .
You know I did ask you not bo report conver-
sations unless I asked you to . I ' m not b18ming you for this/" '''A
123 . Elias Kunene:
this, 1 know that you are offering the explanation , but
pl ease do try to bear it in mind .
THE COURT: Mr . Unterha lter, isn't he answering your
question? You asked him whethe r he assumed it and he said
"Well, I didn I t really as sume it , lila 1 te r Sisulu told me . (5
before he left that thi s man Milner was coming . "
Surely, is it illogica l for him to say wha t he said?
He believes tha t to be so ~
MR . UNTERHl.LTER : I can ' t criticise him . I would have
preferc~ ed an answer : Yes , I did as sume it 7 and then if I (10
said to him , On what ba sis did you assume it , then he
could say so then .
THE COURT: Yes , but we must a lways remember that t he
witness has t a ken an oath to tell the whole truth e
What he believes to be the whole truth . If for inst- (15
ance now he ha dn ' t told vou that wouldn ' t he have been open
to criticism la ter , if it tra nspired later? ;.'1ouldn ' t he
then be criticised a nd wouldn ' t the proposition then be
put to him: Well why didn ' t vou tell me that before when
I asked you and you ha d the opportunity of doing so? (20
MR . UNTERHALTER: Your Ylorship, you wo u. ld ha v e got, I am
sure , the a nswer: I wa s n ' t ~sked . The answer we usually
get . But be tha t a s it B3Y I won ' t press it .
Elias , in rega rd to the authority of Milner ,
as g iven to you and a s you have just said , by Walter (25
Sisulu , you ha d no persona l mea ns of checking thiS , you
just r elied on the infonna t ion as given t o you?~----
Yes , there was no way .
You then g o on to refer to the Secreta riat tha t
wa s formed when you found tha t certa in members were (30
not at t ending the Regional Committee?---That is so . i t teJ
;'l.nd/a t tha t s tage , when vou give the members
of / ••.•.
124. Elias Kunene~
of the Secretariat that you mention the name of the
accused? ----yes .
The procedure that you told us earlier of
appointing people was that the procedure that ~as followed
in regard to the Secretariat , when it was appointed, (5
rather than elected?----les .
And then according to you the accused was
appointed?----Yes, that is the way in which it was worked ,
he was appointed .
And I take it that this appointment was made(lO
in his absence?----Yes ,
Then you used the phrase , ti Re came on to the
Secreta ria t between September and November 1962, after
his name had been r ecoromended by another membe r" ,,----
T hn tis s 0 ~ ( 15
1962?----yes .
Now by thnt uid you mean what you have said
earlier that he was appointed to the Secretariat?-----
It could happen that he wasn ' t actually appointed at that
stage , but that is the time that his nFlme was recomrnended(20
to the Regional Comnittee .
/1.11 I want to get established is that what you
meant when you used the wo rd he came " on" to the Secreta
riat, he was appointed in the way you have described?----
Yes , he was appointed. (25
In the manne r you have described?----
Yes .
Now you say t'ut the Secretariat was dis
banded after the Regional Committee was disbanded in
February 1963?----yes , that is so . The Regional (30
Committee was disbanded .
Row vms that effected?----It happened in this
way/ • •• •
125 . Elias Kunene:
way , the members of the Hegional Committee were told that
the Regional was now being disbanded .
Who told you?----Govan Mbeki .
Now the dissolution of a sub committee in this
way is quite different from the way a sub committee (5
would have been dissolved before the banning of the
A. N. C. , not so?----Yes , it w~sn ' t the same ; it was
different .
Yes , the difference being this presumably -
correct me if I am wrong - that there would have been (10
a resolution of members of a branch to dissolve and it
wouldn ' t have been an order given by one of the office
bearers?----Even at that stage if the National Executive
believed that that Regional Committee wasn ' t functioning
8 ~ it should it had the powers to do that . (15
Yes , but it would have to be proper authorised
resolution of the National Executive?~---Yes .
You see the point that I am putting to you is
this , that generally the procedures of the .n . rT, C. before
banning were democratic in the proper sense of the oord,(20
whereas after banning it seems that certain of the
procedures were somewhat dictatoria1?---- (Mr. Unterhalter
adds) Do you agree with that?----No, I disagree with
that because after the organisation went underground then
the National Executive realised that it should function (25
then in the new way and leave the old way of functioning.
You see, in leaving the old way of functioning
they were no longer res~_ ond ing to the voic e of the
membership, they were responding to the voice of an officer?
as you have just described it ; is that not so?---- (30
The National Executive can ' t listen to a single person.
It has a meeting and then it passes whatever - then it
comes/ ••••.
126. Elias Kunene~
comes to 8 deoision , an agr eement on something, and then
it s8nds a member for that agreeflent, to go and hand
that out .
Well let ' s accept that for a moment . Here are
a group of office- bearers who are deciding upon a (5
certain decision, na~ely the National Executive .---- -
Yes .
Wasn 't the position earlier that it would be
not a g roup of office- bearers but a group of membe rs of
the organisation would take a vote as to whether they (10
we re going to dissolve or not? ----My answer is tha t it
was done with regards to certain things , but not in all
thinGs connected with the Afric an National Congress .
But in regRrd to some things necessarily
because of the situation?-----yes, I agree to that. (15
You see you go on to say that Govan Mbeki 7
having dissolved the COfl1'li ttee, appOinted an Ad Ho c
committee?----Yes .
I take it that again this was appOinted in
gr eat secrecy?----yes , tInt is so . (20
In fact is it not .so that the secrecy was
such tha t members of the JJ) Hoc COTTlPli ttee didn ' t know
who rDembers of the Regional C omm i ttee were, and membe rs
of the Regional Committee didn ' t know who nenbers
of the lid Hoc C ommi ttee '"rere? ----N 0, that is not so . (25
Well do you say it is not so because there was
a link between the two committees?----No, it is not so
because we were told th[~t in the lld Hoc Committee so and
so , and so ~nd so was elected as a member.
iinyway I think you said somewhere in your ( 30
evidence th~t the Ad Hoc Committee had fairly wide
powers ?----Yes, above the Regional Committee •
. And I . . ~ .
•
Elias Kunene:
And eimi l arly here is a committee that derives
i ts ~owe rs f r om people ordering from above, such as
liOv-o:tl Mbeki 9 who constituted it?----yes .
J~nd 1 in turn~ the Ld Hoc committee handed down
instruotions to the Regional Committee?-- - That is the (5
way in which it should oyerate .
And he passed on instructions that came from
the National Executive in Johannesburg?--- Thst is so~
So that if I can contrast the two Situations,
instead , of where~8 the position before banning was that(lO
it carne up , the instructions came up from the national
conference as a governing body, it now came dovvn from
the National Executive as the governing body?--- - The
National Conference used to give the instructions to the
National Executive which in turn sends it out to all the(15
provinc es .
Lnd obviously tha t wasn ' t happening now,
after banning?----No, it was not being done .
Now you go on to say that you were a member of
the Regional Committee ; that was after it was re - (20
constituted by Govan Mbeki? Right? ----Yes .
And you say the accused served, tha t he was
appointed when the committee was chosen?----Yes .
Was he appointed in his absenc e?--- - He was not
pr esent , the accused, when he was appointed by
Govan Mbeki .
Now you go on to describe the work of the
lid Hoc comIlli ttee and t l.c structure of the Regional
Committee .----Yes .
(25
I take it th2. t before banning there never was(30
suc h a thing as an Ad Hoc C Omr:1i ttee in the 11. . N. C., was
there ?----No , there w~s not .
ltnd/ ••••.
128 . Elias Kunene:
The way the Regional Committee was formed after
the banning, was that different from the way a Regional
Comnittee operated before the banning? ----Yes, it was
different .
Now broadly the objects of the organisation (5
that you were busy with after the 8th April , 1960 ,
after the ban of the A. N. C., I think you gave the date
as some time in 1961 when you first commenced: what
were those objects? Yes , after banning in the year 1961 ,
what was it that you were setting about doing? Put it (10
very broadly? ----Our object then W3S to organise, to raise
the different branches of the African National Congress
so as to keep the organisation alive , that it should not
die , so that we could carryon the objects of the organis-
ation, which we did , before it was banned . (15
Now what I am really trying to convey to yOU
is this , not what were th~ objects in the mechanical
sense , but what were the underlYing objects of your worl{?
What were your ideals? What were the political aims that
YOU were en~aged in?----(Mr . Unterhalter ~dds) (20
Let ne assis t you . dere you still concerned
about discriminatory legislation against the Afri can
people?----Yes .
That would sunwarise it~ would it?----Yes .
And it was on that basis that you would make (25
an appeal to any particular person to join you, that
is "Join us in a struggle against discril'linatory
legislation"?----That is 80 .
Iv'hen did you first conc€rn yourself with
organisation after the ban? ----(C ourt intervenes) (30
THE COURT: Do you mean after the banning of the hfrican
National Congress?
MR . I .... ,
•
Elias Kunene ~
~R . UNT:CRHI'I.LTER : Yes , s .fter the banning . You may have -. -given the date already , I ' m not sure . Was it 1961?
- ---It 'WQ$ J ~60. We wel1 e still organising amongst
ourselves, but we were waiting for directives to come from
Johannesburg , and in 1961 actually, then we started, (5
then we started then, organising, forming the branches .
And the first Regional Committee when was it
born? ----In 1961.
About what month?----Between July and August,
I ' m not too sure any more . (10
/md it lasted until; •. ? The first Regional
Committee?-- - -The first Regional Committee lasted until
the time that Govan Mbeki dissolved it, although some
membe rs were not in it .
ll.nd it was dissolved in what month and year? (15
----February 1963 .
Between July or August 1961 and February
1963 how many meetings would you say were held of this
Regional Comnittee, this first Regional Committee?---
(UTTERPRETER: How many ·]egional Conmittee meetings ... ?) (20
Yes,were held?----There were meetings, but
I don 't remember any more how many ,
Would you say there were a very large number
of them? ----There were mee tings but not very many .
Presumably you had a lot of work to do?---C25
Yes , that is so ,
And a lot of work had to be done through
the Region3l Committee?----C Court intervenes)
THE COURT: When you say "you" had a lot of work to do~
do you nean the witness or the Regional Committee? (30
MR , UNTERHJ'ILTER: I am sorry, your Worship , The Regional
Comrlittee had a lot of work to do . ----yes , it had a lot
of/., o"
130 . Elia s Kunene:
of wo r k tha t it had to do .
Yve re you a o 0mbe r of the Regional Committee
between July/11ugust 1961 and February 1963?---- Yes .
The whole of that period?----All that period .
Well, I don ' t want to tie you down, but would(5
you say that the committee would have !!le t once a week
during tha t period?----It should have held nee tings once
a week but sometimes it did not happen because some of the
membe rs of the Regional Corr~ittee had to leave and go to
other neetings . (10
Vife ll would you say tho. t with the exception of
an occasional skipping , the meetings were held once a
week , once eve r y ten days or once a fortnight?
ApproxiJ'la tely?----Sorn.etincs two weeks would pass , and
sometimes three '>veeks , vvithout a Regional Committee (15
meeting being held .
But on the whoie , over the whole of this period,
Nhich was no re t han a yea r , there was , would you say at
least two dozen P1eetings?---- I v:ouldn ' t r eally know the
number of meetings there we re, but there were
meetings .
The point is, Mr . Kunene, were there ve~y many
meetings , we re the r e very few meetings ? That is really
what I am trying to ge t at.---There were a few meetings,
not rn.any .
'ive,ll would you say there were less than ten?
----There might have been less than ten, perhaps more
than ten . I said I don ' t know the number .
(20
(2 5
l\nd do you not know the number because you don It?
any longer , r emember?----I don 't remembe r any more. (30
lnd is it difficult for you to remembe r
because it is quite a long time aeo?----Yes, that is so.
I , . · ·
131 . Elias Kunene:
Of the meetings that were held did you attend
everyone of them? - ----No.
Can you tell his Vvorship more or le ss how many
you did attend?----There a re meetings that I went t0 9 but;
at the moment I can ' t remember how TLany mee tings I went (5
to and how many I did not go to .
And for the same reasons , I take it? It's a
long time ago and it is not easy to remember?---Yes .
The meetings that you attended , do vou remem-
ber who was the chairman of each meeting? - - - - Some I (10
do remembe r, some I do no t .
Now those whom you do remember call you give
us the nsf'le? - ---ll.t the :nc etings of the old Regional
ComlYlittee, the nee tings that I att ended , there used to
be M. B. Yengwa as 8hair,1C' n . If he is not there some- (15
times it would be SiMel~ne9 and if Sime12ne was not there,
it would be Geo r ge Mbelc .
And the secretary, do you re~eMbc r who the
secret nry would be at these meetings? ----- !~ t the tir'le of
the old Regional COLl1~ittee it Vilas George NIbele who ( 20
was the secretary .
',1vhen you talk abou t the old Hegion'=ll Conrlittee 9
you refe r to the co mmittee that was in office between
July/i~ugust 1961 and Februarv 1963, is that right?----
Yes . (25
I ' m sorry, you snid, Geo r f,e NIbe le, is that
the only person? There 1vas nobody else who held the
office during tha t perio1?--- - At th~t time from July
towards the end of 1962~ there was then Se lborne Maponya,
who was as sis ting him . (30
And whethe r they attended or not, who were
the Mcnbers of that old Regional Comnittee? ---- -
There/ • • •• .
132 . Elias Kunene:
There was M. B . Yengwa, George Mbele, Doroty Nyembe,
P . R. Sinelane, Johnston Makathini , and myself .
That ' s throughout the whole of that period? ----
Sinelane went away ; he left the Regional Committee.
Johnston Makathini left South Africa • . Then it transpired(5
that Dorothy was not attonding meetings any more •
.lind then in the place of Johnston Mo.kathini' we brought
Selborne Maponya .
Is it possible for you to give the Court more or
less the date when these people came off the committee? (10
----No , that is very hard .
None of then . You can ' t givo the date of any
of them? Simelane, Dorothy or Johnston Makathini?---- -
PROSECUTOR: May I just clear that up your Wo rship, I ' m
not too sure that the 'Nitne ss said that Dorothy NyeT'1be (15
went off the comnittee . He said she did not attend the
Meetings . It T'1ight just oe R simple T'1atter, can it just
be cle3red up . It night be confusing afterwards .
MR . UNTERHALTER: Yes , we will take it in order, your
Worship . Sirn~lane , you h~ve no information about as to (20
the date that he went off? ----No .
Similarly with M3kathini?----I' m not sure of
the exact d~te any more of M3kathini , but it was between
i\.pri1 and May 1962 .
And when diD it become ~pparent that Dorothy (25
NyeMbe was not attending regularly? ----Before Johnston
Maknthini left , Dorothy ~yembe wasn ' t coming regularly
to the T"J.eetings .
imd when did you take Selborne Maponya on to "
the committee? ---- Be t ween June and July 1962 . (30
And the first Ad Roc Conmittee , when was that
established?---- In February 1963 .,
Before/ •.••.
•
133 . Elias Kunene:
Before thnt there was no necessity for an
~d Hoc Committee was there?----No , i t was not necessary .
~nd would you please give ~e again the n8IDCS
of the ~\d Hoc Coruni ttce consti tvted? ---There was
George Mbele, Se l bo rne Maponya , Stephen Dhlanini, (5
Stephen Mtshal i and Soluillon Mban jwa .
And do you know fo r how long t hat com~ittee
existed?----Thnt committee was there until the time
cnme when Stephen Dhlamini , George Mbele and Selborne
Maponya were arrested .
That date being?----The 10th May , 1963 .
You didn ' t attend meetings of that Ad Hoc
Comni ttce?---- I neve r 2ttended an Ad Hoc Committee
DIone, unless it was a combined neeting of the Ad Hoc
and the Regional Co~mittees .
HovV Y'":nny such co~bined meetings took place?
----That I know of, th2~ I attended , the r e was three .
Let ne just add this , after the arrest of
George Mbele and the other two, were their places filled
on t he ~'td Hoc Coomi ttee or was it dissolved?----
Others were brought into thGir pl'J.ces .
Who was put in to succeed them? ---rhal~ki
Selo 3nd the deceased Er nest Galo , and Jerr:T KUrlalo .
( 10
( 15
(20
And then there was Curnick Ndhlovu that they appOinted
extra as a liai son between the itd Hoc comr1i ttee 'l.nd the (25
Regional Coomittee .
nnd were these vacancies filled at the time
tha t Geor ge Mbele and the others were a rrested?---
Yes , after they had been arrested .
sane
And they were all appointed at one and the(30
ti~e?---- I wasn ' t there when they we r e appoint ed .
So wha t you ~~ve been telling us is what
.You/,, ~ eo .
134 . Elias Kunene:
. you cnth€red frorrl information that you had r eceived?-- ---
It was reported at a me eting of the Ad Hoc Comnittee at
which I W3,S present .
Now these three mee tings, these joint meetings
of th~ Ad Hoc Committee Qnd the Regional Committee, (5
who was the chairman?----Two of theM ; it was George Mbe~
and the last one was Ghalnki Selo .
Yfhere were each of these neetiDgs held ?----
'rwo of them were at the office of George Mbele .
-lhich two?----C INTERPRETER: Which two?) (10
Yes, which two were at his office?----The
two at which George Mbele was the chairman, they we r e
held in his office .
And the third one?----The third one Ghalaki
Se lo was the chairma n .
That was held wbere?----Tbat was in the fla t
of the daughte r of Chief Luthuli in Beatrice Street .
Can you give us the time of the first mee ting?
---- I don ' t r enembe r t he exact tine on the watch , but it
was on the afternoon? after half past five. (20
The second aeeting? ----The sar.1e .
Third aeeting?----The same a lso .
Now I don ' t want you to go into very great
de t ail but in r egard to this first joint meeting of the
Regional Coamittee and the Ad Hoc Committee under the ( 25
chairrn.anship of George Mbele~ what was the mos t important
topic that was discussed? Just tell us very briefly .
----vfhat we were go ing tc discuss then, what wOe were
going to be told, is tha t there is now an Ad Hoc ComMittee
fo r med and ~hat the old Regional Committee had been (30
dissolved . After that we were then told the n8TIeS of the
pe r sons who were menbers of those t wo co mmitt ees
and/ •• ~ • •
135 . Elias Kunene:
and the meeting then dispersed . I don ' t remeTIber of any
thing else having been spoken .
You said you were going to be told: in fact
you were told?----We were told,
Yes , and very briefly, what was t he princip~1~5
topic under discussion a-c the second r.lee ting under the
chairr.13nship of George Mbele at his office?--- - We had
come to t alk about the General Laws Ar.lendment Act that
had been passed at that time .
And vou did discuss it? ----Yes , we did . (10
~nd the principa l topic at the third r.leeting?
----We were then told who were the persons who were
elected to the Ad Hoc o o 11111.i ttee, who had be en put in the
Ld Hoc Committee who had replaced the old members who
had been arrested . And we also talked about the
finances .
Can you give U0 the dates of those three
meetings? --- I don ' t rer.1er:lber them any rlOre .
Not even the month?----The third mee ting was
in June.
which year?---1963 .
Yes? ---The other two mee tings were in April,
tow~rds the end of April. Before George was arrested .
(15
(20
Now I understood you to say that at the ti~e
that this new Ad Hoc COLT'li ttee was born the new Regional(25
COITnittee was born?----That is so .
You were a menbe r of that Regional Committee?
----yes .
£I.nd it caLle into existenc e , if my oenory serves
me y from what you said earlier, in February 1963 , would(30
that be r ight? ----ye·s .
hnd you continued to be a membe r of it until
your/, '.' o .
136. Elias Kunene:
your arrest?----yes .
Which was on the 25th June, 1963?---- Yes .
Now , leavine aside joint meetings between the
Regional Committee ~nd the ~d Hoc Com "ittee , how many
D69tings of the Regional Committee took pl~ce between (5
February of 1963 , and the date of your arrest?----
There were quite a few meetings but I don ' t renember
them all .
Would you like to estimate the number? ----
The r e were two Region2. 1 r! oMmittee neetings which I (10
remember I was present at . There oould have been another
two where I wasn ' t present, because I wasn ' t always
present at me etings .
Now just let me understand you a little more
clearly. Do you say that there were two at least that (15
you remember?----Two that I remember .
You can ' t be certain of attending any more
than two? ---It can happen that there we re other me etings
that I attended that I don ' t remember any more .
Well let us tqke those two meetings then, (20
what approximately , or eXl.ctlv if you can remember it , was
the date of the first? -----It was on a Wednesday . It was
on n Wedne sday in FebruAry 1963 . The second one I don ' t
renember anv more , whether it was a Wednesday or not,
either , but it was in the afternoon at half past five . (2 c)
'7hich month?-- -- I think it was then March
at tha t time .
In either C2 e , do you remembe r whnt day of the
month, not what dav of the week , 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th of
the month 9 or can ' t you?--- - - No , I don ' t remember (30
that .
Whe re was this first neeting held?----In the
office/ ••••
r 137. Elias Ktme ne :
office of George Mbe Ie .
~nd can you tell us what was the principal
topic of discussion of that fi r st meeting in George
Mb ele ' s office? ----That was the meeting at which we
nppointed the office- bea re r s of the new Regional
Committee .
That is all?---- And then they also talked
about the ' M' Pl an .
Yes?----Thnt is what I still remember . It
could happen that there was another topic discussed which(10
I don ' t r emembe r .
Yes , t hose wore the two pr inc i pa l topiCS
at that first mee t ing?----Yes .
Now,second roeeting please?----The second meeting
was nlso in the office of George Mbele . (15
Yes, and can you tell us the principal topic,
a s you r e~erber it?---- 1hat is when we talked about the
plan that we had fOr'ned 7v'i th Selborne Maponya for the
members to visit the branches .
Was that th e. verv small '11eeting?---- (INTER- (20
PRETEH: 'Nas that a small neeting?)
Was that 3. very snaIl neeting?----A snaIl
neeting .
Selborne was pr esent a t that meeting and your-·
self?----There was myself , Selbor ne Maponya and P3scal(25
Ngakane qt that neeting , the accused.
You qre quite sure the ~ccused was present?
---Yes , if I remember c ~rectly, I think he was there .
You seen to be expressing a little doubt. Is
it possible that you are mistaken and tha t he wasn ' t (30
the r e?----He was there .
He instructs 1.1e that he has no recollection
of/ . . • .
138 . ELias Kunene:
of bein at such a meeting .~---I remember th3t he was
there .
thy did you seem to express doubt a little while
ago , a few seconds ago?----No , it could happen that you
perhaps thought tha t the 'rmy that I expressed it (5
myself th~t I wasn ' t sure: but he was there~
What was it that fixes his presence at this
meeting so clearly in your memory?---- I remember that
is the mee ting at which he told us that he was going on
leave and that he would not have time to be able to go (10
out to visit the branches .
Now you have given us the particulars of those
two I"'leetings of the Regional Committee . Is that all that
you can recollect then , of the neetings between Februarv
and the time of your arrest in June? ----Those are the (~5
we etings that I renenbeX' now . It could h I'pen th'1t there
were other meetings , bu~ I remenber those .
You made a reference 8. little earlier to
Ghalnki Selo.----Yes.
~hat , to your knowledge, what offices had (20
this '"'lan held? ---- In the .,";.d Hoc Committee or "hat'?
No, just gener811y . You can tell us . You
can tell us what offices he held in any committees that
you know of~ ----At that time he was the chairman of the
;\.d Hoc COI"lT'littee . Before that in the old CO'"'1T'littee (?5
he was in a Rural ~ireas' C onmi tte e .
v/hen you say "at that time " do you mean
~t the ti~e of the arre. c of Selborne Maponya and the
others f or at the tiT!1e that the ;~d Hoc COT'1.Illi ttee
o ":w.r:..onoec1 in February , 1963 . ';Iould you please be a (30
little more exact?----I ,ean at the time I was
arrested .
HEld/~ ••••
l3~ . Elias Kunene:
Hnd he been appointed just before your arres~?
----yes .
Now you have given us a description of the
activities of what took place at meetings of the Regional
Committee between February 1963 and the date of your (~
1. rrest in June 1963 . Yl,l1 have also given us a description
of what you re~ember of what took place at the joint
meetings of the Regional Committee and the ,id Hoc Committee
over the same period .----Yes.
J'~part from these two committees are there 00
any other committees upon which you served in respect of which
you have information to give us? ----There are no others.
So as regards those cOMmittees th~t is a con
plete description of the Hork of which you know sornethi!:£: en
those cODI1ittees over that :geriod?----Thl.t is sou
THE COURT: The period being ~ .• ?
MR . UNTERHiiLT2R: February . ~ ) June, 1963 . ----Yes o
No'l you gave 8vidence of the neeting tha-t;
took plqce in the house of the Reverend Ntlabati ?--- - Yes .
And you say th3. t you carle the re in the
8vening?----Ycs.
115 \ ..
(20
How did you get there?---~-I boarded 8. bus wb(~n 1
\ffiS in Durb3n , riding in Durban .
~here did you board that bus?----No , I ' D
dorry, I illQdo a rlist1.ke . I was going by c ar on that day. (25
I WRS tbinking of anothe r ,le eting.
:erc you alone in the ear?--- No, there were
four of us .
Do you relember the names of the others?-----
Yes. (30
Can you please tell us? ---~here W8S .Lbedni-s-o
Shnngnse,
Yes? I, I •• <
•
•
140. Elias Kunene :
yes? ----Loshe Ngcobo . Myself and the driver
of the car .
And did you BO straight up to the priest ' s house,
in your car?----(INTERPRET::~:1 : Straight up ••. ?-)
Did you go straight up to the priest ' s houso(5
in your car?---- (INTERPRETI..;.I. : To the priest ' s house?)
To the minister ' s house? ----No , we first
went to Fred Dube . were
yes?----That is where we/told that the meeting
was at the minister, Ntalabati ' s , house .
You received the information there; yes?-----
~e got the informa tion fron a girl whom we found there.
She W8.S told to give us t he infoTI!1ation when we arrived
there.
And having received that information
did you proceed by ca r to the house of the TIinister?------
No , we left the car behind .
far .
We walked on foot, it is not
You walked on foot fro~ Fred Dube ' s to the
ministe r ' s house?----yes .
Lnd when you came there Nere you net by an~
body?- Cr did you just go straight into the house?----
I left the others in the ro~d . I turned off alone into
the yard . I knocked on the door, and then I beckoned to
t he others to co me in,
I take it you r:1 id tho. t be caus e you had tu
be ca reful?----yes , tha t is so .
For the same 'eason presur-:.abl v vou 12f t
your cR. r e lsewhere so that its number shouldn 't be t~ken
(10
(20
(25
as a car standing outside that house?----V/e left the car (30
there because we didn ' t "vant many cars to be outs ide the
house , on the side of the house where the meeting was~
And/ ••• • •
· e
14-1 . mias Kunene:
And when you cane in were there many people,
or a few people?----There rrere m.any ~
Did you see the minister?----No.
Not a t all?--- - No , I did not see him.
Which r ooms did you pass through?-----{e (5
went into the diningr ooD and from the diningr ooTI we went
through int o a bed ro om.
Nere there pe opl e in all the r ooms?----There
were pe opl e in t hree r o oms .
Any in t he kitchen? - - -- I don ' t r emember any (10
mo r e .
Did you go into the kitchen?----N0 1 I never
went t o the kit chen . I went st r aight into the room where
I sat .
THE A' ITNESS ST.L.NDS D01'/N : ( 15
THE LCCUSED IS REMllNDED TO 23 . 7 .. 1964: THE COURT l'illJ OURNS .
ON 23 . 7.1964 THE COURT RESUlJ.I:ES:
"lPPK,R ,NCES J S BEFORE:
ON RESUMPTION : (20
ELL~S KU1-TENE: (sworn, states)
MR . UNTErtH/,LTER RESUMES C20SS- EXhMINA I'ION.
Mr . Kunene , at the 1.djournment yesterday
you had been giving us sone evidence about a meeting th~t
you attended at the home of the Reverend Ntlsbnti, (2)
in Lnnontville . ----That is so .
And I t hink I had asked you if vou saw whether
the Reve r end Ntlabati was ~n any of the r ooms? ----You
asked me and I said I did not see him .
You gave in your evidence- in- chief the nanes(30
of ce r tain of t he people lNho were pr esent?--- - yes.
And you said that there we r e qu i te a laree
numb8r/ c • • ••
Elias Kunene:
number of people there , as ~uch as 50?----Yes .
A Meeting you said, discussing the lXlsses that
would have to be carried by the women shortly?----Yes.
And there were a large number of there?
appa rently?----There were women . (5
Now you said chst this was a meeting of all
the branches of the A. N. C.?----Yes .
Wha t makes you so certain that this meeting
vilas a mee ting of branches of the ~L N. C. and not a meeting
of anothcT organisation?----Because it was myself, (10
Selborne Maponyn 3nd George Mbele who planned the neeting .
Now there was a great deal of feeling in the
location, in that area at that tirrle, about the carrYing of
passes by wonen? ~asn't there?---- Yes, certain people were
talking abou t the women having to carry parcels .
Lnd in general conversation women themselves
throughout that a rea were v,ry resentful of the law that
(15
was going to affect them?---- I wouldn ' t know becLuse there nr8
no wo~en from that area who ever spoke to ~e nbout it.
Yes , well you were by way of being'
politician?-- --Well I was a ~an of politics in the
committees of the Congress g but I would be telling liGS if
I say that there was any person tha t spoke to ~e about the
carrying of passes , apart from the nee tings.
(20
That is not what I am discussing w th you. (25
And as a politician you would naturally be interested in
getting the opinions and attitudes of il.frican people , the
ordinary ~fricqn people , we ldn 1 t vou? ----Yes , I wanted
to.
And you must have known that the general (30
feeling aIl0ng women in the a rea was a great resentment if
they had to carry passes?-----Well I won't say a great
rna j 0 r i ty / e • ~ 0 •
143~ Elias Kunene :
majority , I would just say a few of them, because the
majority of the WODen had already taken out their passes .
Now it was particularly the function of the
Federation of ~)men to )oncern itself with problems
of Afric an women, wasn' G it? ----Yes, the Federation and (5
other organisations, I'~ was not only the Federation .
And wasn1t this in fact a meeting of the
Federation of ~omen to which members of other organisations ,
including your own , came?--- - It was a meeting of the Afr ican
National Congress, and 0ertain neobers of the Federation (10
came to the meeting because they were invited by the
Regional Committee of the African National Congress .
Are you SUTe it wasn't the othe r way around?
- - - --No .
What was your pa rticular role at that time? (15
What was your special function? - --- I was an organiser of the
\ Afri can National Congress .
Yes , as such , what did you have to do in
particular?---- Well I h~d to go to the branches , visit
them , to see whether the work was carrying on all right, (20
and also to arrange meeting s .
What basis did you have for knowing whether
or not any particular person was a member of the organisation?
----you mean to know whether a person was a meTIber of the
African National Congress? (25
Yes , of your organisation?---
(Court intervenes)
THE COURT: Just a minute. ~IT . Interpreter, you said to
Mr . Unterha lter "Do you T1eEll1 of the African National
Congr ess? " - Mr . Unterhnlter said; "Of your organisation"( 30
- so please put it to the wi tness that way . Mr . Unter
halter didn ' t say of the A. N. C., Lot now . I don ' t know
what/ •• II •• '
144 . Elias Kunene~
what he said previously . I presume the language you use
you do so advisedly?
MR. UNTERHflLTER: That is so .
TRE COURT: Will you bear that in mind Mr . Interpreter?
INTERPR.ETER: Yes . (5
THE COURT~ You put the question on behalf of the witness
back to Mr . Unterhalter : liDo you mean of the A. N. C. "
And the reply cam.e back as a Question : "Of your organisation . It
Mr . Unterhalter did not use the word "A. N. C. "
Vifhich organisation are you referring to (10
Mr . Unterhalter? Just to clarify it for the sake of the
wi tness?
MR. UNTERHALTER: The organisation that he claimed had
organised this meeting . - ---The people who came to that
meeting came with people whom they knew were officials (15
in the branches of the African National Congress .
Well because they came with officials how did
that mean , hew does that show, that they were members of
yOl,r organisation?-----At the time the meeting was arranged,
members of the branches of the African National Congress (20
came to the meeting .
You are not answering my Question. Originally
my question to you was: " Hovl can you be sur e that the
people who attended were Elembers of your organisation? "
Your reply was that the people cane, came in the company(25
of the Regional Committee and I then put it to you:
"Why does it follow because these people came in the
company of members of thE: J]egional COITI.r.1ittee that they
were P.lembers of your organisation? " and I invited you
to give an answer to the Question .----What makes me (30
sure that it was a meeting of the African National
Congress is because the people who cane to the meeting,
the/ •••••
145~ Elias Kunene:
the people from the branches , the officials from the
b r anches who came there , they in turn said that the
people that they brought to the meeting were members of
t hat par ticular b r anch of the A. N. C. because when a
meeting was arranged, t h2 t was the instruction that they(5
were given .
And so you are giving the information on the
basis of informa tion that was given t o you?----Yes, that
is so ,
Now you gave the names of the people who(lO
were present : you gave ,a l ong list of names .----Yes .
Was Stephen Mtshali among t hose who were
the r e?---- I don ' t remember too well seeing him . It might
be very well that he was there and he m.ight not have been
there ; but I don ' t remember seeing him there . (15
You have a good me~ory , Mr . Kunene , would
you say?----Yes , I can rel '3l:1ger .
And the events of this neeting are fairly
clea r in your rrIind? ---- I c1on ' t reT'lember everything , but
sone of it I do remember .
The important things you remember?-- --Yes, I
remembe r sone of the things , why the meeting was called.
You were closely associated with some of the
m.embers of the Regional Cormnittee, we r e you not? - --- yes,
(20
we wor k ed t oge t he r. (25
Had the Ad Hoc Committee been established
a t the date of this meeting?---- - It was nm established
yet , not form.ed yet.
But Stephen Mtshali was quite an inportant
person in your work generally, wasn ' t he?----Not at (30
that t ime, as fa r as I know,
Hadn ' t be been concerned in any activities
a t/ 0 ••••
146. Elias Kunene:
at all at that time?----He was still working in a branch .
He was a member of the cOlJmittee of a branch at Kwa Mashu
of the African National Congress .
Had he impressed himself upon you as a person
of some political ability?---- I didn ' t have T!l.Uch time yet ( 5
then to take note of him.
He was later appointed to the Ad Hoc Committee ,
wasn ' t he ?----Yes , that is so .
That was a senior body in Natal?----Yes .
You were not appointed to that body? --- - ( 10
No .
He was in a senior position to yourself?--- -
Yes .
Why was he appointed to the senior position
and not a person like yourself who had been an organise r? (15
~---Your question is hard to snswer , because he was chosen
by Govan Mbeki of the Nat~onal Executive and not by me
and therefore I don ' t know why .
Lnd wasn ' t be a ~erson of such stature that
if he had been at that meeting you would surely have (20
remembered him?----No .
And t here is nothing that you can think of
tha t might assist you to renember whether or not he was
a t t ha t meeting?----No , there is nothing .
Now I want to tell you that Mr . Mtshali (25
gave evidence at the Ladysmith trial . Are you awar e of
that?---- I wasn ' t at the trial in Ladysmi t h .
And Stephen l\~tshali has described this
meeting that I have been discussing with you . J:md I want
to read to you from page 74 of the r ecord in that (30
t r ial what Stephen Mtshali said .
Thef •••••
147. Elias Kunene:
The question was put in this forn from line
22:
QUOTATION: "DId you go to this place at Lamontville alone,
or did anyone else go with you? ----There are others I went
with . (5
"How did you people go?----We went by bus .
"And from where did you leave?----We boarded
the bus in Victoria Street bus r ank.
" In Durban?- --·-In Durban .
"Who went in. your compan;t? .----It wns Curnick (10
Ndhlovu, Frede Mhlongo .
" Is that this person, accused No . 6?----Yes .
"Yes?---Eli2s Kunene, and others .
hYes , and whore did you get off this bus?----
We got off the bus near the Lamontville Secondary School . (15
"And were you 1:1et there by anybody? - ---Yes .
"Who is th2t person?--- Elsin Kanyile.
"And where aid you go to froI'l the bus stop?
----FroTTl there we went to the house of the Methodist .
~t that time, at this Methodist ' s house, there was a
minister staying there, Ntlabati .
" Is that one of the accused or not?----Yes. "
QUOTATION ENDS .
Now , Mr . Kunene, yesterday when you gave
(20
your evidence you said th3t you came by car and went to (25
Dube ' s house . You left the car there and you walked
to the Reverend Ntlabati ' s home . I asked you if you
were I'1et by anyone ; your answer was that you went through
the b~ck door . Now do you want to say anything about the
evidence as I have read it to you and as was given by (30
Stephen Mtshali in this regard at the Ladysmith trial.
----All I want to sav is I said yest0rday that I went to
that/ ••.. .
148 . Elias Kunene:
that ~eeting by Motor cor qnd that I was not alone in the
car because others were with ne whon I nentioned yesterday
when I g~ve evidence .
Are you sug,~esting that if Mtshali says that
you were with hin, and that the journey was TIade by bus (5
and he describes the route that he took, that Mtshali, when
he gave that evidence wns not correct , was not speaking tho
truth?----There is an occ2sion on whi0h I did ~o with by
Stephen Dhlanini when we ifent ;bus - Stephen Mtshnli, when
we went by bus , but it was not to that particular
meeting .
Well you have ny assurance , and TIy learned
friend the prosecutor will correct me if I am wrong, that
the evidence to which Mtshali is deposing at page 74 of
(10
this r eoord, ~nd the paces th~t follow, are concerned with(15
t his neeting that we helVe been discussing this T'1o rning .
Nn"'1s1'iT, at the house of ):{8Ve r~D.,J. Ntlabati about wonen ' s
passes , Now on that basis, what do you say t o ~y Question?
Is Mtshali speakin~ an untruth when he says that you
acconp2nied hin in the bus? Or have you been perhaps (20
~istaken in the evidence that you gave to his Worshipo
THE COURT: Mr . Unterhnl tor , I ' l:' not Quite sure whethe r
I ' m correc t or not, w~s the Question in tha t cnse there ,
Mtshali there said ~ "Y/e went to the house of the Method ist
wher e the Reverend Ntlabrti was st'lving . " (25
MR . UNTERllilLTER: Of the ~ thodist?
THE COURT: Of the Methoc1 ist , where the Reverend Ntlnbati
WflS staying . Th :t is wha1~ I understood you to r ead .
MR . UNTERHALTER: No, not where he was stt:17ing . Perhaps
I could r ead it again to your Worship . (30
QUOT~TION. I .. ...
149. Elias Kunene:
QUOTATION :
"And where did you go from the bus stop?---
Fron there we went to t he house of the Methodist . At that
time, at this Me thodist ' s house, there was a einister
staying there Ntlabati ,
11 Is that one of the accused or not? ••• • 11
QUOTATION ENTIS:
THE COURT : Yes , well tha t isn ' t Ntlabati ' s house . That is
lIt tle Methodist ' s house " in which the Reverend Ntlnbati
was staying . (10
MR. UNTERHALTER: Your Worship if necessary I can go on
to r end all the other evidence . It will be put in. And
ny lea rned friend, I an sure , will stop ne if it is incorrect .
1\here is no do ubt •.•• (C ourt int ervene s)
THE COURT: Jus~ let the wi tness go out for a ~oment (15
ple'J.se .
(THE lilITNESS LEAVES THE C,URT- ROOM . )
THE COURT: Is the witn ess out of earshot now? I don ' t want
hin to hear wha t is being said here .
MR. UNTERHLLTER: Your Worsh ip9 this r ecord •..• (Court (20
int ervenes)
THE COURT: Is the witness now out of earshot? Are you
sEltisfied?
MR . UNTERHALTER: Yes .
THE COURT: Mr . Unterhalter, please forgive Re interrupting (25
you . I don ' t like doing that, But it does occur to ne
thnt there eight be rOO D for talking at cross-purposes
here because ey i~pressio~ of the eElrlier evidence was
th8t the witness had said that the nee ting to which he
was referring had occurred at the house of the Reverend (30
Nt lElbo.ti . That is how I understood it . Now he said in
his eVidence- in- chief 8nd in his cross- exanination
ye sterday /" ' .'
•
150. Elias Kunene:
yesterday that they had gone to the house of the Reverend
NtlElbClti but the question that was posed in the Ladvsnith
trial as you read it to 1'1.e there, and you say it is line
22 I think , page 75 .
MR . UNTERHllLTER: Pnge 75 , line 7 . (5
THE COURT: Now the question that I heard you put 1 simply
was that "we went to the house of the Mr.;thodist vvhere the
Reverend Ntlabati was staying ."
Now it seens to ne that one has got to be
careful in putting the question to the witness now
because he has said clearly if my notes and my Memory
(10
serve n.e correctly that the neeting vms held t not at a
Methodist house , but at the house of the Reverend Ntlabati ,
and your questions, now , as I understand them, are relating
to what Mtshali said at LadYSMith about the house of a (15
Methodist at which the Reverend Ntlabati was staving. I
only want to be quite sure that we are all perfectly
ad iden as to what is being interpreted, what the question
is , what the witness said , and what Mtshali is alleged to
h~ve said at Ladysnith . (20
MR . UNTERHALTER : Your Worship, ny learned friend and
myself discussed sone days ago the question of this record
and subject to your Worship ' s ruling, this record will
go in by consent , and as I said a few moments ago it is
quite clear fron a perusal of what Mtshali says nt page (25
75 and the succeeding pages , thnt the neeting that he
is referring to is the saBe neeting to which this
witness deposes in regar~ to the subject matter, nanely
the wonen ' s passes , the people who were present and the
deciSions that were taken . So that in putting it to hin(30
I am confident that the neeting I am referring to is the
r.1e a ting thC1t in a description, there is such a reseMblance
toY •.•••
151 . Elias Kunene:
to the meeting that he has described , that it is the
S8JIle meeting .
IRE COURT : Mr . Unter halter , if you tell me that I
unreservedly a ccept i t : but all I want to be
pe r fectly cl ear about is t hat when we are referring(5
t(') " the meeting ", and we are dir ecting the witness '
mind to "the meet i ng " we r efer to the meeting which
he , the witness, says took place at "the Reverend
Ntl abati ' s house ". I don ' t think it would be fair
to the witness to dr aw a conclusion that he is (10
talking about a meeti ng that occurred somewhere else .
I wonder if I make myself quite plain . I don ' t want
the witness to be confused by a conclusion which
somebody else has drawn . Let him draw his conclusion ,
and give his evidence accordingly . But as long as (15
we make it clear t o the wi tness that you think it is
the same meeting, but he is ent i tled t o give his
evidence on the facts as he claims to remember them
and as he claims them to be correct . Is there anything
you would like to say before I get t he witness back?(20
MR . UNTERHALTER: No .
THE COURT : Have y ou any comment , Mr . Prosecutor ,
at this stage?
PROSECUTOR: No .
MR . UNTERHLATER : I am indebted to your Worship . (25
THE COURT: Please let the witness come in .
(THE WITNESS RETURNS TO ,THE WITNESS STAND . )
MR . UNTERHALTER RESUlVwS CROSS- EXAMINATION OF T:f:1Z WITNESS.
Mr . Kunene , before I repeat the question
that I put to you , I will put the following (30
questions to you .
Thb meeting that we are di s cussing and
that/ •.•••
'_
152 . Elias Kunene:
i s that you say that you came to by car, /the meeting
that, according to y~u, t nok place at the beginning
of February 1963?----Yes , in February .
The meeting was held at the home of the
minister, Ntl abati?----Yes .
A Methodi st minister ?----Yes, a Methodist
minister .
There were a large number of people at
this meeting?----Yes .
And it was concerned , among other
things , with discussing passes for women?----Yes .
A boycott, as a way of protest? A beer
boycott? - - --yes .
A stay- at-home strike?----Yes .
The issue of pamphlets?---- Yes .
(5
(10
(15
According to you, the accused was the chair-
man of that meeting?----Yes,.
Do you remember the day of the week on
which it was held?---- I remember .
What was it?----It was a Saturday .
A Saturday evening . And there ••. (witness
intervenes) ----A Saturday ev ening , yes ,
Yes, and there were pe ople allover the
house?----In three rooms . I saw people in three rooms .
And there wasn ' t any other meeting
eithe r before or after the beginning of February , that
was the same as this?----I don ' t remember any .
All right . Now on that basis I want to
put it to you that Stephen Mtshali ' s description is very
similar to what you have j ust sai d , and that the
meeting he is speaking about in h i s evidence is the
meeting that you are speaking about . And on the
basis/ ••••
(20
(25
(30
153 . Elias Kunene :
basis of putting that to you I now want to ask you , in
regard to the evidence that I have led, that I had read
to you , from the evidence of Mtshali ' s statement, is he
wrong in what he said , or are you wrong in what you s a id?
----(Prosecutor intervenes) (5
PROSECUTOR: Can my learned friend perhaps just indicate
in what respect , because Mtshali said quite a lot and
so did the witness .
TMR . UNTERHALTER: Your Worship, I thought I would
indicate it . The discrepancy that I draw the witness' (10
attention to is the journey , and the people who accompanied
him.--- -I say that I am telling the truth when I say
that I came to Lamontville by car from Kwa Mashu .
S0 that if Mtshali gave this evidence at the
pr evious hearing at Ladysmith , under oath , and mentions (15
your n~e he was not speaking the truth?----(The Court
inttrvenes
THE COURT: Mr . Unterhalter , I am sorry to interrupt you
aga in ; but shouldn't you, in fairness to the witness,
say: "If Mtshali gave that evidence about that me eting, (20
and he was talking about the same meeting as you a r e ,
he is not telling the truth?"
MR . UNTEFBALTER: Well, yes, that's implied in the
statement ••.. (Court intervenes)
THE COURT: No, I d0n ' t think we should imply anything . (25
I think we should mak~ it as plain as the English language
can make it .
MR . UNTERHALTER: Yes ~ cll I shall rephrase it .
If Mtshali gave evidence under oath at the
Ladysmith trial and said that he went with you (30
by bus to the meeting that we have been discussing and
the meeting to which he was referring is the same
meeting/ ~ . .•.
154 . Elias Kunene:
meeting about which you have just been giving evidence ,
then Mtshali was not speaking the truth?----My answer is
I was not in the bus , I left Kwa Mashu by car .
Now may I see EXHIBIT ' F ' please . Would you
look at EXHIBIT ' G' please Mr . Kunene . Is that the (5
one that you say you and some of your colleagues were
responsible for producing?----yes .
Do you say that that followed after this
meeting that we have been referring to ?---- (INTERPRETER:
Do you mean this pamphl et?) (10
yes ?----yes .
How soon after the meeting was that pamphlet
produ ced?---- I think a week passed and then it was
issued .
It had to take some time to draft it and run(15
it off I presume?----Yes, that is so .
Now in your evidence- in- chief you give the
da t e of this meeting as the beginni ng of February 1963?
----yes , I say so .
Who actually phrased that pamphlet , EXHIBIT 'G ' ?(2
----It was drafted by George Mbele .
And you remember the phrasing well?----
No , I don ' t remembe r everything : but the truth is he is
the one who drafted it .
You couldn ' t be mistaken - I ' m not s uggesting(25
you are - but you couldn ' t be mistaken , that it was
written by somebody else?----ICould be mistaken but all
the work of drafting leallets was given to George
Mbele , of this leafl et, this particular leaflet .
And t his leaflet is defi nitely the leaflet (30
that f ollows the meeting in the Reverend Ntlabati ' s
house at the begi nning of February ?----Yes , that is it .
NOw/ •.•• "
Elias Kunene:
Now evidence was given in this Court by a
police constable , Apr i l Mpanza , that he found that pam
phlet under his door on the morning of the 1st February,
1963? According to what you have just said that pam
phlet was only produced some days after the 1st February(5
1963 . Now who is correct?----Well I don ' t know . It could
be that it was then . But as I said , it was in the
beginning of February , and I did say I do not remember
the exact date .
Yes , it was a Saturday, you don ' t remember (10
the date : you said that in your evidence- in-chief . ----Yes,
that is so .
But if the pamphlet were produced several
days after the meeting , and the constable is correct in
his evidence that he received it on the 1st February (11
1963 , then the meeting couldn ' t have taken place at the
end of January, it must have been about the 24th t 25th ,
26th January?----I don ' t know . As I said I don't know the
date, but it was coming close to the end of January .
I don ' t want to be harsh; all I am going to (20
say to you is that you were somewhat inaccurate when you
said the meeting was the beginning of 1963 , and
presumably that is so because it is a long time ago and
you have had a lot to remember? - - --Yes , it could happen.
Now I want to take you back again to some- (25 were
thing that you said yesterday when yo~describing the
Ad Hoc meetings jointly with the Regional Committee and
the Regional Committees that you had attended . Now, in
reply to my questions you in effect said that you had joint
attended three/meetings of the Regional and Ad Hoc (30 ,
Committee and two meetings of the Regional Committee, and
you gave, briefly , the business that took place at these
meetings .j.
156 . Elias Kunene:
meetings .----Yes .
Now one of the meetings that you referred to ,
in reply to my questions , namely a m~eting , a joint
meeting of the Regional Committee and the Ad Hoc
Committee , was one that you said had been presided over (5
by Ghalaki 8elo , and thL. t took place at the home of the
daughter of Chief Luthuli in Beatrice StreGt , Durban .
----yes .
You also said that , in respect of the meetings
to which you were speaking , those five meetings were (10
the only meetings that you recollected attending , that
is two of the Regional and three of the Regional and
Ad Hoc combined?----Y':s , I said those WE::re the meetings
that I still remembered .
Well Mr . Kunene, I have re- read your
evidence-in- Chief and there is no reference in your
evidence- in- chief to your having attended a meeting
pr~sided over by Ghalaki Selo .•• (Prosecutor intervenes)
PROSECUTOR: Was the witness ever asked whether he
(15
ever attended such a meeting? That should perhaps (20
in fairness be pointed out . If I remember correctly
the accused did not attend the meeting at Ghalaki S~lo •.•
(Mr . Unterhalter intervenes)
r~ . UNTERHALTER : Your Worship , the point of my question
will emerge in a moment . I am aware of my learned (25
friend ' s point , and I shall put it to the witness .
You agree with that Mr . Kunene?- ---(INTERPRETER:
What is the question?)
You did not in your evidence- in- chief refer
to a meeting presided over by Ghalaki Selo and which (30
took place in the home of Chief Luthuli ' s daughter in
B~atrice Street in Durban?----I did not speak about the
meeting/ •. • •.
I 157 . Elias Kunene:
meeting because I was not asked about it . There
are many meetings which I went to which I haven t spoken
about, because I haven ' t been asked about them.
On the other hand your evidence-in-chief
shows clearly that you did attend three meetings of a(5
combined Regional and Ad Hoc Committees , and two
meetings of the Regional Committee, so that the total
of the meetings that you spoke about in your eviddnce-in
chief , these kinds of meetings , and the total of these
kinds of meetings that you spoke about in your (10
cross- examination is the same?----I spoke clearly yester
day , I said the meetings that I still remember .
We will come to that in a momento I say
the totals of the meetings are the same in the examination
in-chief and in the cross-examination ,but the detail (15
of one of the meetings of the Regional Committee and
Ad Hoc differs in your cross-examination from what you
said in your evidence-in-chief . Now the question that
I want to ask you is this, if you said in reply to my
question that those five meetings were the only (20
meetings, why does the detail of the one differ from the
detail of the other?----It can happen perhaps that I
do not remember too clearly any more and that I am
mixing up the facts with that meeting with the facts
that happened at another meeting"
Well when you gavG your evidence you
didn ' t express yourself with any uncertainty . You
expr essed yourself witL great certainty .----Well I was
speaking with c ertainty and I did say at some places
where I did not remember any more I said that I do (30
not remember any more , because a pLrson dves forget.
Yes , well Mr . Kunene, it was a perfectly
fair/ •.••••
(25
158 .. Elias Kunene:
fair question that I put to you as to whether these were all
the meetings , that is the two of the Regi onal and the
three of the Regional combi ned with the Ad Hoc and you
answered withou t any hesitation that that was all?----
That I still remembered, I said so . (5
Well if you remembered it for your examination
in- chief , why did you remember it differently for your
cross- examination?----It can happen perhaps because of
in the way that you put the ques t ion to me that I did not
remembe r it correctly . You can ' t always remember it(lO
the same i f a question is put to you differently .
Ar e you perhaps finding some difficulty in
the way I am putting the questions to you?----Sometimes
I do . I have on many occasions asked you to repeat the
quest i on . (15
You see I want to tell you that I am not
questioning you in the order in which you were questioned
by my learned friend . And I am doing this to test you .
And I want to put it to you that because I am approaching
the matter in a different way you are not responding(20
in the way you responded to questions by my learned
friend .
Now is it possible that you are not res
ponding because you happen to have learnt this by heart
in a certain order and you are now embarrassed because(25
you are being tested by me?----No, that is not the truth
at all . As I said a lot of things I don ' t remember
because there were many ~eetings connected with the
things , it is not that I learnt it off in any order ,
and there are lots of meetings which I remember , which(30
I haven ' t spoken about .
You were detained were you not?-- --Yes,
II .....
I
159 . Elias Kunene:
I was .
During your detuntion did you make a statement
to the police?----Yes, I did .
Was that statement about all the matters
you knew concerning your organisaticn? ----It was (5
concerning all the matters about my organisatiun which
I remembered at that time .
And in that statement did you refer tG
things that you have mentioned here in this trial?----
Yes . (10
Did you write that statement out?----Ycs .
THE COURT : Did you write it out?----I wrote it out myself
with my own hands , that is the draft , then it was typed
by somebody else . Somebody else typed it while I was
rt-ading it out to the person . (15
MR . UNT~;RI-L'\.LTER : Over what length of timl: did you pre
pare this statement?----I think it tOJk me a month b~cause
I started it in the beginning of August .
Pilld from time to time did memb~rs of the
police come to you, r~ad the statement as far as you(20
had prepared it?----No .
Were you questioned un this statem~nt?----
I was questiuned un the statem~nt only after I had finished
writing it , when I was finished r~ading it , not while I
was still writing it . (25
As a result of those ~uestions did you add
anything to the statement?----No , th~r~ ' s nothing .
Before you started to pr~par~ the statbment
were you questioned? - ---I was question~d , yes .
Were you told things by the police in the (30
course uf the questioning?---- (Court interv~ne~)
THE COURT : I ' m sorry , when was he quest ioned?- What
did/ •.•••
160 . Elias Kunene:
did he say Mr . Untcrhalter?
MR . UNTLRlli~LTER: My question was were you told things by
the police in the course oli your questioning .
THE COURT : He said no , and then ••• ? Your next qu~stion
was •.• ?
MR . UNTERHALT ER :
(5
This is the very quustion to which he
is ansvvering - thG answer , your vVorship, was h8 didn I t 8.1 t8r
it after they read it .
THE RECORD IS PLAYED BACK TO THE COURT:
THE COURT : The question to which you arG wanting (10
an answer now is : In tho course of your questioning were
you told things by the polic~? And it was that question
which I missed.
MR . UNTERHALTER: As your Worship pleases . ----No, there is
nothing that they told me . (15
Nothing at all?----No, there is nothing that
th~y wero t~lling me .
Are you quite sure of that Mr . Kunene?---
Yes , apart from asking me qU8stions , and just talking to
me , after ~hey had finished qu~stioning me 9 there is(20
nothing I remember that they told me.
Well I just get the exact passage , but I
seem to recollect that in your eVidence- in- chief whell my
l earned friend put a question to you as to why you made
a statement , you said that you did it because you were(25
informed by the police that other people had g iven inform
ation , or words to that effect .----If I said that I made
a statement because I was informed by nembers of the
police, that is not my evidence . My evidence was that I
made a statement because I realised that the uthers who(30
had been arrested before me had made stat8ments .
I want to be qui tt:. fair to you . 1 1m only
putting/ •• • ,.
161 ~ Elias Kunene:
putting my question at the moment from memory , I ' ll
try to find the exact passage and I will tell you how
it has been rtcor ded , if your Worship will bear with
me .
THE COURT : I have a note of it her~ . Would you like (5
me to r ead it out?
MR . UNT1RHALTER: Yes , I would be grateful , your Worship .
THE COURT: And I must say that I hav<;:; not
wr i tten down the ipsissima ve r ba
of the witness on each occasion bu t he said:
"I was questi one d by the police in
detention about the A. N. C . •••. "
Would you like the witnGss to go out while I ' m reading
it?
(10
MR . UNTERHALTER : N0 9 no . I ' m quite happy as it is . (15
Tllli COURT: "I made a SGatt;mbnt to the; polict; ,
I made a clean breast of th~ A.N.C . in Durban and my part in it . YeS , a written statement . I made it freely (20
and voluntarily bucause when I was arrcstt:d I found othl;:"~s alrl-ady arrested
before me and I rLalised thuy had
made: stattI:lents ."
That is how I have recorded it . Now we can vl;ry
easily get the passage on the belt bt;cause it was a
little while before we adjourned on the 21st . Can you
turn it up on the machine?
MR . UNTERHALTER: My own note is as follows:
III decided to mak:e it because when
I was arrestod I realised others
had made stateTI1l.;'nt s ."
It iS 9 therefore , not necessary to play i t back .
THE/ • • _ ••
(25
(30
Elias Kunene:
THE COURT : He used thu word "rl,;;alised" o
MR . UNT1RHALTER : Yl:;s .
Now, Mr . Kunene , what made you r~alise that
others had made statements?----From the way that th~
police questioned me I realiscc1. that things that we (5
were doing together with the others who had alr~ady be~n
arrest\,;d that the polic~ knew about those thingsQ
In oth~r words your realisation C2~e from
things that were said to you by th~ police?- ---That I was
questioned about by the police , (10
lmd in putting these questions to you didn 1 t
the police; say that tht-y l{now about so and so, they know
about so and so , or they know that this m~eting was
held ?-- --No, they said : "You Vvt:Tt:: '1 t such a l1t;eting and
such a IDeeting . " Th~y w~r\,; asking ill\,; in a sort of (15
qu~stion way , Asking me: "Vler!:..- you thtre at such a
ml... 8 ting and such 0. rll- eting? "
THE WITNESS STf1.HDS DOWN :
THE COURT Trj(~S TJill SHORT LDJGURN1':IENT .
ON RESUMPTION : (20
ELIJ~S KUNENE : (s till und"r foro8r ou th)
MH . UNTERHALT:CR HiSUMES CHOSS- EX.ATlIINATlON OF THE WITNESS:
At the tea adJourru1~nt you had said that
you r",alis(.d from the forn of qUE-sti ons put to you by
tht:! policl; int(;Trog':ltor during your detention that (C'5
people must havlO made statt::ments?·----That is so .
You said the forE of qUl...stions concerned
meetings that you had attl..-nded? ----Yt-S5 lill-8tings that I
was going to and SOIlll; of the things I did for thl:; African
N~tional Congress . (30
Now can you t"ll his Worship which 1Ill:;etings
did the policl... refer to in th~ir intbrrogation?----
The/ •.••••
163. Elias Kunene:
~---The meeting I rener".ber which t:hey talked about is thlJ
meeting where we were at ~~·· ; ~.-lbntii s place .
Did they say who was present? ----No, they did
not say who was present .
Did they say what the T"l.eeting wns about? --· -.-. (5
No , they did not say .
'Nell what did the;y say about that neeting?-- .-··
They asked me whether I was there or not at that neeting.
'Hhen they first askeCi you that, what was Val!'
reply?----First, when t hey asked ne about the neeting , I sa~d(~
I am not going to anSVller the questions? but afterwards v'h81"i
I answered the question I said I was the~e.
~iVell what me.cle you ch3n e froM your dccisicll
not to answer the question , to your decision to 8~swer thG
question?----- ~ell I answered , I chan~cdl ~ec~u8e I (15
realised I was then sitting in g"ol arId I "Joule. gather
fran the way they asked th t sone others had alreadv an
swered questions .
Yes, but I want this pleQB8 in a l~ttle ~0re
detail ~ Let's go back to l'1eetine No .1" That';'8 the one (2(,
in the Heverend Ntl3.bati 1 s house, '.,l.;'" ,;1.1 (; tw. fiX';::.t tc:.:-ic
upon which they questioned you?----No, th~t is no~ the
first thing they asked ne . The first -. th3.t VV'J.S only 8.S
far as neetings we re concerned. '['he first thing tl)eiT
asked De was whother I was a nenber of the Africa!l (25
~btion3.1 Congress .
And thn t was the first question they pJt ·to
you?----Yes, that is what J reMenber.
i~nd at that stl.ge yOU bad decided you \i.2rc. not
answering: so did you reply or did yon rlOt. I'eply? - ·-- - (30
It took 3 long for me to reply, and I eventually replt8d
after ~ long tine .
Now Ir .' Q ••
164. Elias Kunene~
Now just let us put it this way, they put the
question t o you and was your answer: " l I T'! not replying. "?
----I said I an not gOiD.g to answer the question .
Did they continue to question YOU at tha t session
or did they go away and CO TIe back later?-- ---They left TIe
when I refused to answer tDe question .
They cnne back later?----They cane back l ate r 9
well after two weeks had passed .
When they cane back what was the first question
(5
they asked you at the next session?----They asked ne (10
whethe r I still refused to answer questions .
'Nhat was your reply?---- I said ~ "Yes, I I m still
stfJ.nding bv the sane . I BEl not going to answer questions ."
Did they leRve or did thev put any other questions
t o you at t h3t session?-----Thev left me again a t that (15
stage .
How long after Ghat did they return?-----I
think two weeks or perhnps a week . I think it was two weeks.
I think I renembe r it was two weeks .
This is the third session?----The third time . (20
Wha t was tho first question they put to you?---
The SQ~e quest i on , do I still r efuse to answer questions .
~hnt WQS your reply?---- I will answe r questions
now: they Must ask ~e .
Yes? ----hnd the first question they asked ne (25
was an I a M(mbe r of the Regional Cor.rmi tt ee of the
l\fricnn N'1 ti anal Congress.,
Did yOU give an r'1swe r to that question? ---- I
answered .
l.nd what was yC1ur answe r'?-- -I s'l.id: "Yes ." (30
I don 't understand your reply. You have to Id
his Wo rship th2t you answ ered questions because you
realised/ •••• •
1650 Elias KunE;ne:
realised - let ne just get the phrase ~gain , so th~t I
don ' t fl~ke n nistake - "I realised others had ~ade state
ments. " -----yes .
You have just told his Worship that you decided
not to n.nswer questions ~ that -ehe quasti on that was put (5
to you on the first occasion was: "Are vou a nenber of the
l~frican Nation·:tl Congress? " Qnd you refused to reply .
----yes .
This w~s put to you on n second occasion? After
some weeks ? You sinilnrly refused to reply?----Yes . (10
And on the third occasion so~e weeks after tha t
when they ca~e to you ~nd put that question t o you you then
decided to reply and YOll did re:;.Jly .----Yes .
Now how could you r eslise froTI the questions that
the polic e h:ld put to you 3S to 'dhe ther you were a ncnne r( 15
of the African National Congress th"'t others had nade
statenents?----I answered 1Jc,use I rE;alisEd the way they
asked the question wo.s not Q way in which they were want ing
to know vvhethe r I w,'].s or not ~ to E:O it looked '1S if they
~lready knew. Thntis whet C 3 M C Jilto ny nind . (20
V::'l."C ';,[0.8 (;~~e diffe:.."en":;E U0 CVv'Gen the wo.y they asked
the first ques tion, the questIon at the firs t session and
the way th8y ask8d the ClU8SGiC'n o.t the third sess ion that
~ade , difference to your re~lisnticn? ----In ~v mind I
re,lis od it. becnuse t~ey ,sked ME; the one Cluestion (25
only, '1nd then I decided to ~nswer the question .
Didn :t vou r c~lly dec~1e to ,nswer because you
h~d been kept in soli tr:ry c 1finer:en-c - I nssume it was -
fo r several weeks ,nd you di&l :t want to continue in
solita r y confinement?---- - Ye3~ that wns also there, (30
but the main thing was I 'ims -eben 3r7.'ested? und cr arr es t
How/ ••• o • •
166 . Elias Kunene:
How do you know that the others h~d already
answered questions? -----Well as I sav the way they
questioned ~C, they only asked Me one question all the
tine and it cnme into fly mind that tbeY,already know
because if they still wanted to know they wouldn ' t have (5
just asked one question .
Is that all that you want to say to his Worship
on this point?----And then from the further questions that
they asked me, also it oecane clear to TIe .
Yes , I am not concerned at the moment with the(lO
further questions . I BTI concerned with the opening question.
- ---That ' s what I want to tell the Court.
You want his Worship to understand from that
first opening question th3t the police conveyed to you (15
that other people had made statements?--- (Pros ecutor intervenes
PROSECUTOR: With respect , your Wo r ship , that is not what
the witness snid . He did ilOt say it was from the first
question thnt was put to him that he realised, he said it
was after they kept on asking hin onlv the one question . It
was then that the re31ised that the police will
surely know ~oreo He didn 't say it wns fron "che first
question •••• (Court intervenes)
THE COURT~ I didn 't hear hin say that he realised that
the police T'mst know f1ore . I didn't get that inpression"
PROSECUTOR: ":lords to the.t effect .
(20
(25
THE COURT: Well they nay be to that effect f but I don 't
think he s3id that. I thiru~ we had better ~sk Mr.
Unterhalter if he would put his question and then we will
see whether you Object to it . Do you mind putting it
again 9 Mr . Unterhnlter . (30
MR . UNTERH;.LTER: Ycs 9 I "will try to rephr~se it .
On the third occasion when th2 police came to
you/,. ~ ••
167 . Elios Kunene:
you they asked you a question? -Correct?---~Yes .
~hat was that question? - - --The question was
whether I was 0. T:1.enber or not of the Regiono.l Comni ttee of
the African National Congress underground.
THE COURT: Underground?----Underground .
MR . UNTERHALTER: And what state of nind did that bring
you into?----It was the third ti~e they asked ne the sane
question and that nade ~e think in ny mind that they
already knew tha t I was a nenber.
'iVhy d idn f tit flake you real is e it the first (10
ti~e they asked you that question?----Because I then
believed that they still wanted to find out, they still
wanted to know fron ne e
V/hy didn ' t you realise on the second occasion
when tha t question was put to you?--- - -No , at thnt (15
st:J.ge [11so I still thought tha t the police wanted to find
out whethe r I was 8. 1'18I:1be r or not and that they wanted 1'1e
to tell them .
So you say that ne rely because they kept on
r epenting this question 9 ond because they asked it to you(20
at the third session, the t brought about the realisation
that you have spoken about . ----Yes 9 I realised in my mind
then, tha t the way they asked the question they knew
Rlready .
And you say it was the f~ot of the way they (25
nsked the question which was the predoMinant reason for ,
your deciding to speak? ----The reason that made me speak
was because I rea lised the, tha t they way they were asking
the question they a lready knew, and if they a lready knew
there was no sense in De keeping quiet . (30
My question was that wos the predominant reason?
----yes .
Among/ •. " ••
168 . Elias Kunene:
Among the other reasons was your desire to be
free?----Another reason which made me want to talk
was tlmt I would tell the truth as to what I knew, So that
I could tell the truth and know that I ' m arrested for
the truth, the things I knew and the things I did . (5
Just answer me , Was one of the reasons the
fact that vou Wished for your freedom?--- - Yes, one reason
was that I thought it WGuld be advisable for me to tell
the ,t r uth to the police .
I don ' t know why you are evading the question . CIa It is a simple one and it is not a trap question . Was one
of the reasons the fact that you wished for your freedom?
----yes .
Yes, of course , you wanted to see your wife and
children again , didn ' t you?----Yes, I wanted to tell (15
the truth, and another r eason was I realised it is no
use ~e sitting here when tue police knew about the r assons .
You did want to see your Wife and children
again, didn ' t you? - - ---Yes, I wanted to .
Had you been he ld in solitarv confinement? (20
---- - Yes .
Before you decided to speak the period you were
held in solitary confiner1ent was appr OXimately how long?
---- It was a month already .
Did you find it a trying and difficult
experience?--- - Yes .
(25
As between th9 notive fo r speaking because you
renlised the polic e knew a ._d speaking because you wanted
your fre8don and you wan ted to see your Wife and children
again, wasn I t the predoflinant motive the fact that you (30
wanted your freedom? ----Just repeat the ress ons again?
l~s between the motive for speaking becaus e
you/ ••••
169 . Elias Kunene:
you realised the police knew, according to you, and the
mo tive for speaking because you wisheu for your freedom
and to see your wife and children again , wasn't the predo~in
ant notive the fact that you wanted your freedom and to
see your wife ~nd children again? ---- I knew at that (5
time there were a lot of t~ings connected with the
African National Congress that I did not want to be connected
with 3.nd char .e d with at that time because I was fightin
ag~inst those things . ThGrefore I thought that it would
be advisable for me to t ell about those things concerning(lO
the ~i.frican National Congress with which I was connected,
so that I could get ny fr eed om and go out again, so the
ain reason was not for me to get ny freedom to go and see
my children again .
The main r eason was not to get your freedoM, (15
but what ••. ? Just say it again?----The reason was so that
if I do get charged then I was - was th9t I should then
ge t charged for things which I also believed in . The main
reas on was not for me to get out at that time 2nd to go and
see My children . (20
I ' m not sure that I unuerstnd you but are you
tryirl£; to say thgt you hud decided to Make the statement
in order tha t you should be ch~rged for the things in which
yOU belicved?----(Court intervenes)
THE COURT: No , no . He f"tid his Mnin reason was that (25
if he had to be char~ed9 he wanted to be charged for the
things tha t he knew 2nd believed in .
MR. UNTERfi'lLTER~ You 11 ear rl what his Wo rship says?- ---That
is correct .
You agree with that? - --- Yes Q (30
Now how did you know tha t you would be charged?
---- - Firstly I knew th~t the Afri can N9 tional Con~ress
was/ •. ~, •
170 .. Elias Kunene:
was not a lawful organ isation , therefore , if I was a
member of it and I was carrying on with its work I was
contravening the law by doing that and I thought that I
must be charged .
So why should you desire to be charged?----(5
It wasn1t that I desired to be charged but I knew that
I would be charged for things which I did which I believed
in .
So then why did you want to speak if you knew
that you would be charged?----I wanted to speak to the (10
police so tha t I would know that if I would be cha r ged I
wo uld be charged for things which are the truth, which
I told then , not something wh ich I just believe in which
they go t from other people .
J .... nd what gU2.rantee did you have tha t the (15
charge would only proceeu on the basis of the information
tho. t you grwe and not on tile basis of informqtion tha t
other people mi ght have given against you?----There was
no guqrqnt ee , but I knew that if I made q statement to the
police and I was cha r ged , tha t statement would be (20
in Court, made available to the Court .
And thst was nore importsnt to you than to make
a statement in order to be re-united with vour familv?
~----Th'1t W2S ~mo ther reL',son .
But not as inportant as the reason vou have (25
just spoken about , beinf.; cha rged?---ThCl t was the main
reason as far as I was concerned.
You have been a political fighter in what yOU
regard as t he freedorl struggle for some years?---- That
is so .
You have been associated with others in that
struggle~----That is sOQ
In/ .. • Q •
(30
171. Elias Kunene:
In coming to this decision did it weigh with
you that you were going to betray your political colleagues?
----It wasn't that I wanted to betray them, but it was
thnt I had to say things that had happened in which we were
together with them in the organisation r that I did not (5
agree with .
You see , ~y difficulty in undeTstanding your
question is this ; I cnn understand a man betraying his
political colleagues because he wants' to be with his
family . I don't understand your betraying your colleagues(lO
becquse, according to you , you wanted to be charged in the
way you deposed t05 ' •• • (Prosecutor intervenes)
PROSECUTOR: Your Worship, with respect, the witness never
said that he made a statenent because he wanted to be
charged . I submit that my learned friend must phrase (15
his que2tion differently if he wants to continue with this
aspect.-
MR . UNTERHJ.lLTERg I wanted to avoid a lot of circumlocution
'1nd it w,<),s f.;r thf"lt reason thqt I put the words "in the
way that you have deposed to " which I submit covers (20
everything th3t he has said in rega rd to the situation of
the cha r ging and which he understqnds . It is nececessary
to go over the ipsissiwB verba and t ake up the time of
the Court I will do it, but I submit that the witness
understands • . .. (The Court intervenes) (25
THE COURTg The prosecut or , as I understand his objection,
it is the way you put the question to the witness was
" I can underst1.nc1 a nan bet_tying his colleagues to get
his freedoI'1, but I can ' t understand a T'1an betraving his
colleagues in order to be charged." ( 30
MR . UNTERHALTER: As he , in the way he has deposed to .
I added tha t . I assume your Worship heard that phr~se of
mine , /Y:jQo.o
.-
Elias Kunene:
l:line .
FUTITHETI DISCUSSION ENSUES ON THIS ASPECT .
THE COURT: I wonder, Mr . Unterhalter, forgive n8, but I
always feel that when one puts a Question of thn.t kind
it is perhaps fOirer, not only to the witness? but also (J
to the accused to avoid Rdding an implication about wlJ.jch
there night be some arguw-ent later . If one puts the
Question in the plainest English without anv enbroiderv
there cem be no roon for nisunderstanding, and it seems
to me -Chat the Question is: "I CRn understand vou bc[;::.'aying(10
vour colleagues to get your freedon, but I can't underst ond
you betraying your colleagues because if vou wanted to
be charged vou wanted to be charged only for the things
yOU knew about 3nd believed in,l! bec'1use thot is wh'Jt I .
understood the witness to say and I think you put the (l~
Question to hirr! in exactly those terrTlS and he BRid ves that
is exactly what he felt .
MR. UNTERHLLTER: I shall use those vrords,
You h9.ve heard vlhat his Worship has said'? ._----
I heard . (20
I shall repeat ~y Question along uhoso lines.
I can understand a nan betr9ving his politicel collea~~3s
because he wants his freedo~ Rnd to be re-united with big
wife and family. I canlt underst9nd a rrtan betr3ving hjs
colleagues bec'1use he ';8.nts to be charged for the things (25
tha t he knows and the things in whic~l he believes.
THE COURT: If he has to be charged.
MR . UNTERHALTER: If he 11" '-" to be chargC)d . ·;.'h::.l t do vou
say to that? - --- My answer is I thought there i:~' I nm goi:lf
to be charged I would be chqrged for the thi~~s I did 3nd(30
that I believed in, and that after thT~ I would C01'lC OU'-l~
again and see Dy family, my children. Thc:t is '10t :=,orlJthin[;
-tha t / ~ . " .) ~
173. Elias Kunene:
th~t I knew would happen if I carried on with the objects
of the African National ~ongress .
THE COURT: Just repeat that please?---- I said I knew that
- I said I knew just as I had carried on the objects of
the African National Congress if I bad to be charged (5
I would afterwards come out again and then see ny f~mily .
MR. UNTERH41.LTER: VVhat basis was there for your believing
that you were going to be charged?---- (Mr . Unterhalter
adds) Lt the tine when the question was put to you at the
third session with the police? ---I didn ' t know that (10
I would be charged but I thought that if it had to happen
that I should be charged _
Have you cO··lpleted the sentence?----I have
finished .
So without even knowing that vou were (15
going to be charged, and on the supposition that \TOU mif'ht
be charged, you then mad e your state~ent , and that WRS the
princip~l reaso n for making it?---- I sqid bec~use I had
~lreC1dv reO,lised that I \Jould be charged , tha t ' s whv I
P1.qd e the s t'1t err, ent qnd ! vvanted it to be the truth th3t (20
Cilme from ne .
I want to put it to you that we have
tr~velled a long way fro~ the statencnt that you gnve in
your evidence-in- chief~ "I decided to Tilake it bec~use
when I was arrested I realised others had made stRte'TIents ." (25
What do you say to that?-- -- I sav it is not different.
I S3Y it is still the same . I said that I nade the
st~tenent because I realis ,d thRt others had 3lready
nelde st'l.tenents qnd all the se other reasons were reasons
to help rre re~lise .
You have just sqid that this is the principal
reason ; I don ' t understand it, but when ny learned
( 30
fri end/ ••• . ' ~
174 .. Blias Kunene:
friend questioned you why didn ' t you give this reason
about the charge , this reason that prompted you to make
the statement? ---The prosecutor did not ask me whether I
knew whether I would be charged .
Of course not . He asked you why did you make (5
the staterrlent? It was a very simple question . ----..tind
I said that I realised that the others had already ~ade
statements ; that was the first reason . And then these
other r easons which I have already mentioned .
You didn ' t rn.ention to my learned friend (10
the principal reason whioh is the one that you now state o
--- I told the prosecutor when he asked me the reason, that
I had made a state~ent because I realised that others had
already made statements.
Well we won ' t pursue that any further . You(15
have now Plade up your nind at the third session that yOU
are going to answe r questions and you then proceeded to
answe r the questions .-----Yes .
Now the first question you say thnt was asked was
whether you were a rneP1be r of the Regional Committee (20
of the hfrican National Congress?-----Yes .
Do you r emember the next question that was asked?
----1 re~embe r it .
Will vou tell us please?----- They asked ne
whether 1 knew George Mbele, Selborne Maponya , and (25
Stephen Dhlanini .
~nd you replied to that?----I replied to
Carryon, what was the next question?----
Another ques tion they asked me was,was I at the (30
T'1eeting at Lamontville at the house of Ntlnbati , lind
I agreed , I said yes, 1 was there .
Did/ •• oo ••
175., Elias Kunene:
Did you give the names of the people who
were the re?---Yes, I mentioned some of then. I did not
nention them. all .
Did you mention the names to the police that
you have T'lentioned in this Court as the people who were(5
attending? ---- - l didn ' t T1,-~lt ion ther:J. at that stage . I
mentioned ~hen when I was writing my statement because
I d idn' t rlenti on thf'3J"1 all ( INTERPRETER: Witness corrects
me . ) I didn ' t Mention them all at that stage when I
spoke to the police , I nentioned them when I was writing(lO
my st~tement because at that time it was hard to remeDber
them all .
Did you mention the name of the accused in
r egard to that meeting when you were interrogated by
the police?----- Yes , I ~entioned it , I said he was the (15
chairPlcln .
knd did you r t}eat that inform3tion in your
stnte~ent?-- -- l did .
I don ' t want to go into any lengthy detqil
as to your interrogqtion, generally did you cover (20
in the interrog2tion the facts as you:vc spoken to here
in your evidenco- in- chief? -----Yes q
ll.nd as you answered these questions were they
wri tten down bv your interrogator?---- (INTERPRETER g ,is
you answered the questions?) (25
Yes?----(lNTERPRETER: Were they written
d own? Do you nean his c.ns1il/ers?)
Yes?---- lt is hard for ne to say . They were
writing . Whether they were writing that or not I do not
know ,
But writing took place as you gave your
answers?----Yes o
Were/o • • , .
(30
176 . Elia s Kunene:
Were answers suggested to you or were
questions only put to you? -----They would not hlve
asked me questIons if they were going to tell 1'18 the
answers .
Perhaps you haven ' t und erstood 1"'1e. Nha t I BEl. (5
trying to convey is were the answers suggested to you or
were the questions put in a way that you could just
answer any way you chose?-----They asked questions in such
a way tha t I could answer in such a way as I wanted to.
And in due course the questioning was (10
finished? ----Yes 9 the questions finished ~
Thereafter - 1 1m sorry, you were going to say
sOJ11ething?----(INTEmJ~:tI':T:sR: No, he says, you carryon . )
When the questions were finished at whose
sugges tion was vour st8tenent made? Did you volunteer (15
to nak8 a statenent or were you asked to write your state
nent?- ----I was the one? i said to them I wanted to naJ{e
a statenent, I wanted to write a stQtel'1ent so that I could
write down everything I still rene~be red .
Why did you volunteer to flake a st~teMent(20
after you1d answe red the ques ti ons that the police had
put to you?----I wanted to be satisfied Dyself that wha t
I had written down in tho sta t enent was the truth, the
truth because they didn ' t sav to ne then well it was
finished . (25
But you were satisfied you were speaking
the truth as you answered the questions as the police
put it to you?--- - Yes, tl..; truth is I was speaking the
truth but when they were questioning ne 'J.nd I was nnswering
they said there WqS a lot tha t they still wanted to (30
ask ne about, after the y had asked me those questions .
That ' s what nade me think it would be better if I wrote
a/ ~ . G" •
•
•
177 . Elias Kunene:
a statenent 3nd wrote everything down nyself .
But you had seen them writing?---- (MQ,. Unter
halter 1dds) It is true you didn't know what they were
writing, but didn ' t you assume that what they were writing
were the replies to their Questions as given by you?----(5
Even if I thought that , that wasn f,t enough to satisfy
me that it was my answers .
But why did you have to be satisfied?-----
I wanted to be satisfied because I didn ' t realise at the
time that this position that I was in , where was I going(lO
to end?
And his Worship is to understand that it was
your sugges tion that vou nnke the written statement, it
wasn ' t a reQuest to vou, or a suggestion to you, by the
police?-----Yes, it was not the reQuest of the pnlice, (15
I elected on my own .
And did they accept vour suggestion?----
Yes, they ~ccepted it .
"~nd you then embarked on the r ecording of
vour statement?-----Yes .
Is it possible for you to say the dqte when
you first comne nced to Rnswer Questions?~----I don't
renenber any n ore .
(20
Can vou rep1 e1'1.ber the date when you stopped
answering Questions? ----- (Mr . Unterhalter adds) I ~ean (25
when the police interrogation stopped and you started
writing?----- I don ' t renenber any n ore.
Well let us . ee if we can ~et SOMe period .
You were arrested on the 25th June , 1963?---- Yes Q
You were released what day?----On the (30
21st September 1963 •
So it was just under two months that you
we r e/ •••••
•
•
178. Elias Kunene
were in detention?----Three months .
I ' m sorry , it ' s three months, yes~ You had
been detained for roughly how long before you first
answered questions, how Inny weeks?-----I said in the
beginning that I believed that it was already two weeks (5
or three weeks - I s~ic in the beginning tha t I believed
it was nlready three weeks or two weeks after~
That you comnenced answering questions?---
No , I said when I st~rted answering questions it was
about three weeks frop the tine I was arrested , (10
Yes , and you continued to answer questions
for how long?-----All the questions were not asked on one
day .
I r ean over the whole period , how long?
J ~pproxi·":1.ately? ----- I I D not sure, but I think two weeks (15
passed .
'\.nd at the end of that period did you i nned
iately start preparing your statenent?-----Yes .
';lhen you cor:ple ted the statef1.ent were you
inf1ediately released or did you have to wait sonetin e (20
after the co npletion? ----- Yihat do you n ean by your question?
Do you f1 ean when I'd finished draftinr it or when it was
finished being typed?
Well let ' s put it this way : you had written
it , is that right? ----Yes . (25
It was typed?----Yes .
Did you have an opportunity of checking the
wri ting with the typing?-·----Yes .
And it was then conpleted as a typewritten
docunent?----Yes . (30
After its cO l pletion as a typewritten docunent,
how soon thereafter were you released?----The state~ ent
was/ ••. o •
179. Elias Kunene:
was finished on the 21st Decenber, the day that I cane
out .
Now do you know whether in your presence,
can you say whether in your presence either the written
or the typewritten statenent was conpared with any (5
answers that you had given verbally?----Yes, I think they
were co~pa ring it because after I had drafted it they
were ~sking TIe questions again which they had already
asked ne beforehand but they weren ' t asking all the
questions . Before it was finished being typed . (10
THE COURT:: l i n sorry, I would like that answer replayed,
I have ~issed one word .
THE RECORD IS PLAYED BilCK TO THE COURT:
MR. UNTERH.:~LTER: Is it pos si ble for you today to renenber
any of these things tha t they brought to your attention(15
when they were conpa ring?---- I do n ' t reueTIbe r any TIore .
As a result of their naking this conparison
did yOU alter anything in your written sta tenent?
----No, there is nothing that I changed ~
..
When you wrote the statenent there was (20
fresh in your nenory the questions that the police had
asked you? And the answers you had gi vsn? ----Yes , I was
still renenbering SOTIe of it .
And in f act your written state~ent was based
on the questions that had been asked you and the answers(25
you had given?----Yes .
Now did you ever see that stateTIent after
you left prison? - - --Yes , I saw it .
Where did you see it? ..... --- I had a copy of
it .
When was t his copy g iven to you?----I was
Given a copy the day I went out .
Dol • ••••
( 30
180 . Elias Kunene:
Do you know why you were g iven that co py?~---
I asked then to give ne a copy so that I could have a copy
in My possession .
Why did you want a copy in n y possession?----
I wanted a copy so tha t I could always read it and know(5
it s contents .
Yes~ ----So tha t I could renenber well every
thing that was in it .
The document tha t is before you at the nonent,
what is that?----Do you j-1.ean that particular exhibit ' (10
yes ,-----Tha t is EXHIBIT ' G'. Th3t was a
panphlet which was issued at the tine they a greed on a
boycott of the beer.
Have you read it nany times?----No , I haven't
read it nany tines, (15
You couldn ' t tell us what the contents were?
----No , I can ' t because I haven't r end it . Even the tif'1e
it was drafted it didn / t stay with n e n
Now the sta t80ent as Eiven to you you took
awa y with you?~---Yes. (20
And did you read it?----No , I di d not read
it , I did not get tine to r ead it~
Where did you keep it?---It stayed in a ward
robe in ny house .
ll.nd what happened to it?----At the tine (25
I went to hand nyself over to the police I took the
sta tenent and gave it back t then.
Did you se v it after that?~---You nean
after I ' d handed it back to then?----Well the copy I had,
I gave to the~ . They Cid not g ive that copy back to (30
ne acain .
Well did they give you another copy of that
copy? / , " 0
181 . Elias Kunene:
copy? ----But I saw another copy of it .
Where did you see another copy of it?--- - -
At the offices of the police in Wentworth .
How long ago?----It is quite sone tin e ago .
I think a nonth was passed . Because it was just
shortly after I was arrested then .
You say a :-lOnth was passed. You nean a
nonth fron now, going backwards fron now?--- --No, a
(5
nonth after I was arrested , neaning after I'd handed nyse lf
over to the polic e again . (10
And you were arrested when?----(INTERPRETER:
Do you ~ean when he handed hinself over?)
yes ?-----On the 1st of May"
Of this year?----1964~
So you saw the statenent ~gain approxi~ately(15
on the 1st June 1964? I'n not holding you to exact
dates?-----Round about tha t tine . I don ' t know the
exact date .
Did you read it?----I read it .
How nany tine s?----I don ' t renenbe r any (20
Dore . I read it. Perhaps three or four tines ~ I dontt
rener.1ber correctly any pore . I didn ' t read the whole
thing a lso .
Did you read certain selected prrtions?
----yes, I just read SODe of it . Selected portions . I (2~
didn ' t read all the paSes .
Did you read those portions that are
relevant to the facts in ;his trial? ---- - yes .
Did you read it because you were told to
read it or just out of irrterest?----After I'd a reed (30
to g ive evidence , and said I would give evidence , I r ead
it l'1yself, because I wanted to r CGenbe r sone things which
I/ .. " ..
Elias Kunene :
:r d:id noi, r8P1pr1b8r any Dore .
And did the docunent reMain with you in your
cell while you were in detention? After you had surrendered
yourself?----Yes , it was in My possession at some stage ,
and then went back to t hen again . (5
Fo r how long did you have it in your
possession approxiMately?----I don ' t remember .
Well, a week , two weeks , ten days?----It could
be less than that. I 've said I don 't renenber any ~ore .
Yes , but please help us to SOMe extent . (10
Was it a day , was it a week , was it a fortnight?-----
It was TIore than thato It was TIore than two weeks . I don ' t
know if it was just two weeks .
And then did you give it back or was it asked
back?----No , I handed it back nyself . They didn1t (15
ask for it .
You were held in custody on what basis? After
you surrendered yourself? As an awaiting- trial prisoner?
-----1 was arrested under the 90 days .
THE COURTg Are we clear about tha t?
MR. UNTERHALTER: Yes , your Worshiv draws ny attention
to the fact , and this is what I am asking, when you
surrendered yourself , that is the point? ----Yes , I say I
was held under the 90 days .
(20
In solitary confinenent?----Yes . (25
And I t ake it you didn ' t have much reading
~atter given to you?----No not ~any . I was given a bible ,
No newspape.L's'?-----No they weren ' t F,iving TIe
newspapers .
And the hOl'rs were SOT'1ewhat weary, the long( 30
hours being held in solitary confinement?----That is
so .
Didn 't/ •.••••
J83 . Elias Kunene:
Didn't yOt'. vvhile away sone of these weary
hOl,rs with constant rea cJ. ing of the statement that had been
Given to you?~----I re2d the statenent TIany hours,
but I didn ' t read the whole thing , I couldn ' t read the
whole thing all the tiT~ .
It was so~ething that could occupy your
tine because of the lack of reading natter , apart from
( 5
the bible?----Yes , it could assist TI e . There was also the
bible to help TIe to pass the tio e away . I wasn ' t only
read in - the statement . I was reading the bible as (10
we l l .
Those we r e the two documents that you had
to distract you?- - - -Yes .
Mr . Kunene what is your present position?
Are you free, or a re you in detention?~--- I an in (15
detention .
Still unde_ go days? ----Yes .
FroD the tiqe you handed tha t statenent back
until the tine that you we re brou£ht to this Court to
Give evidence , did you see the statenent again?'- --- (20
Yes , I did see i'c .
When did you see it again?-----Whe n I was
go ing to bive my evidence in this c ase .
This case cO 'Jn enced on Monday 20th of
July . Now , in rel~tion to those days, when did you (25
look a t it aga in?---- A week had a lready passed . It was
the week before.
THE COURT: I don ' t Quj '- e fo llow wha t the wi tness neans . ,
Does he nean he sa 'N it during last week?-- --Monday it was
a lread y a week past t hst I had seen it . ( 30
MR . UNTERHALTER: Did Emyone go over the statement with
you?----Yes , there was o
Ask/ ......
184e .Llias Kunene:
Ask you questions about it?- - --yes.
Who was j .. t;? --- - It was thc prosecutor"
In having decided to nake statenents to the
polic e , in having volunt0ered to nake a written statel"13n-C,
i n having asked for a state~ent when you were ~ele8~eC (~
f r oT'1. detention • • • . (intel'}J:eter intervenes) - .... - ( INTERP1L~rEH ~
Do you nean that he asked for it?)
Yes , your having asked for the stateT'1ent
when you were r eleased from detention and in having read
the s t a t enent several ti'~les since your detention after (10
sur renderi ng your self , have you had in nind a plan on your
par t to inGratiate yourself with the autho r ities in orDer
to secur e your release in due course?--- - (INT.ERPRETER:
Could you explain the \!oI'd ~l ingl'atia_Ge ll? )
Make yoursclf B fqvourable pe r son to then: (15
- ---No , it doesn't ~ean th~t I a~ ~aking ~yself a favourabl~
pe r son t o the pol~cco
Don it you 1,i13,n'c to "·.ake 70urself ap:pear pleasinc:
t o t he poli ce and t he authorities?-----Noa
Now you S8.1(\ that you grtve evi.dence in (20
a trial , in ?l'e ""GOl'.lB , of J aIm 1.11~::t(u.L.ellg : , .. -- -ies..,
'iV-hen was that hec.ri.ng?,,~- --,It was Decenoer,
1963. I don:t renenber the dat2r
Did you refer to hin ~L the stateT'1.ent ""Gh&t
you T'1.ade while you ~ere under 90 days for the first tiMe?(25
---- (Il'iiTEB.PRETER· T? ::fer -Co . . . . ?)
John Mkwlin.eng? ~---Yes ~
And before ~~tng up to give that evidence
against hin did you refresh ~rour f1.eL'ory by read ing th.]
staterent that was in your p08session? ---- I didn't (30
r ead the stateMent over because as far as he was concerned
I was ~oing to give evidence 0nly on ~hree ~eetings and
that!.,. r:".
185. Elias Kunene:
that was something I could renenbe r, there was no necessity
to read over the statenent .
Well was the statenent shown to you before
the trial in Pretoria?- ---They showed me . They asked ~e
is this ny statenent. (5
Did they tRkc you through portions of it?---
Do you nean that was written in the statenent?
Yes , what was in your statement?-----No, they
didn ' t read it to ne . They just asked ~e what I wrote
- was th8.t the truth what I wrote and I swore and said (10
yes it was the truth it's just as it is now here .
You may have nisunde rstood ~e . I don't nean
in Court . Did perhaps the prosecutor in the Pretoria case
take you through your stntenent?----When I was boing to
give evidenc e, the prosecutor opened the sta tenent and (15
he asked ne was this Dy statenent and I said yes , and then
he looked into it about ", De !'1eetings over which I was
going to give evidence .
And he asked you questions about those
neetings?-- --Yes , he asked De questions.
lind you gave answers?-·---I gave answers.
Now did any of those ~eetings coincide
(20
with any of the neetings that we are concerned with in this
trial?----Those meetings Rre in y state~ent but I have
not been asked about then here in this case .
THE 'VITlTESS STANDS DO" itT :
THE COURT T fJ{ES THE LONG ~,J)JOURNMENT .
ON RESUMPTION:
ELIAS KUNENE: (still under f,orner oath)
(25
MR . UNr ERH/,LTER RESilll1ES CROSS-E:L'JIUNATION OF THE HTNESS: ( 30
MR. UNTERHfI.LTER: When you were released fron your
first period of 90-dqy detention , did - were you asked if
you/ •••••
186. Elias Kuneno:
you would testify for the State?- - --Do you nean when I
had a l ready been r eleased or before I was released?
Well either before or at the tine , or af~c~
you we r e released?---- I was asked after I was r eleased.
How long after YOll were released?-- .. -· .. - (:-
Three nonths had already passed .
Since your release?----It was three months
after I was released that they asked me to give evidence
in the case that was going to be in Ladysnith ~
You were released on the 21st Septernber 9 (10
1963?----Yes .
So after the 21st Decenber, 1963 2 you wers
asked t o give evidence in the Ladysmith case?~--- Thp.y
told me after that that I would have to give evidence in
Ladysmith . (J5
After wha t ?----The 21st of Decenber had
alr eady passed , as you asked me.
Where did they ask you?---At the offices of
the Special Branch at Went worth o
Were you sent for to cone there? _ .... -- (20
They sent for me to CO De to them.
Is that th o first tiDe you'd been nsked to
t estify for the State? Wa s this the first time vould been
asked to testifv for the State?-- --In the LRdysoith case,
yes . (25
I haven ' t asked in the Lndysm.ith case ,
I ' ve asked "for the State "? - - - -I didn't understand your
question properly. I Q~J reply the first tine also end
say as far as the LadysDitb case was concerned .
Now I ' m putting the question to you
was this the first tine you were asked to testify fo~
the State?--- - It was not the first time .
Vlhen/o .9 U <
(30
187. Elias Kunene:
When was the first time you we~e asked to
testify for the State?----1t was the timE:! that I had to
go and give evidence in the case of John Nlkndir:.e:..".c
in Pretoria.
When did they ask you to give evidence (h
for that case? ~--- 1t was in 1963 in Decenber, but I rjo
not renembe r the datc .
find where did they ask you?-- --At the
offices of the Special Branch in Wentworth .
Were you also sent for? ----Yes .
Had any charge been preferred against
you a t that time in Deoenbor, 1963?·---- No? there was 110
charge Dade against me yet .
Until the tine that they asked you whether
you would give evidence in the Pretoria trial
had you heard from, or seen the Speclal Br2nch after
your release on the 21st Septenber , 1963?----1 didn 't
see them to t alk to them, apart fror the fRct that they
always cane to see ne at ~1y home whether I was there,
because I was a restricted person.
Has notic e be en served upo:.."1 yOJ. iJy the
authorities in terrls of the Supression of COllT"lUnisn
Act? ----That is so .
We re you confined to a certain areaf--- ·
(1('
(15
(20
Yes , I have been confined to the area of Durben , the ~2~
town itself and the Location whe:cc I stay: Kwo. ]\;lashuo
But you were not confined to your ho~e?----
No .
You were not required to report at -';he
police station at any particular tine?----- I have i.;o l3C
report ODce a week .
Any particular day?-- - -On a Friday
Lnd/o' <. ••
188 . Elias Kunene:
J~nd had you been doing that regularly? - ---
Yes .
When the police checked up with you did they
have any conversations wiLth you?---They used to come and
greet ~e , we would greet each other , then they would (5
go away , and other tines they would talk .
When they would talk what would they say to
you?---- I don't renenber everything, but sone things, they
would ask how I was , whether I was still all right in
health r and then they would go . (10
Anyway the conversations were only about
ninor natters , they weren ' t about political Tlatters?----
No , just minor ~atters .
So you cane to the police station at their
request and you were asked whether you would give evidence(15
in John Mkadineng ' s case? ----They snid to me fro m ny
statenent that I ' d made "'ube headquarters at Pretoria
wants me to go and give evidence at the case .
Did they say you Must go to g ive evidence or
did they invite you to give evidence'? ---- Thev invited (20
TIe to go and give evidence ,
And what was your reply? ---- I agreed .
Did you knoYf that you could have refus ed ?---
I knew tha t I could refuse if I wanted to .
Why did you agree ?-- -- I a greed to go and (25
give evidence at Pretoria in the case of John ~&3dineng
because the case was connected with things which I had
said that I did not beliove in .
I ' B afraid I don ' t understand th'l t . Would
you please elaborate on it? -----Well the neetings I (30
was going to g ive evidence about conc erning John
Mkadineng wns when he said that the National Executive
now/' . " Of
189 . Elias Kunene:
now had a nilit a ry wing , the MKONTO , which I did not believe , In .
So would it be correct to su~arise your
attitude by saying that since you were going to give
evidence against a nan who supported violence you felt (5
quite justified in doing so because you didn ' t agree with
violence?----yes .
You didn ' t weigh in the balance the fact
that in giving this evidence against John Mkadimeng
you would have to betray your political colleagues?--- (lO
The intention in My mind was not that I was going to betray
my friends .
Didn ' t it occur to you tha t in giving tha t
evidence you might have to i mplicate some of the A. N. C.
colleagues who had not had anything to do Vllith violence(15
and yet had belonged to an unlawful organisation?~---
No tha t never entered ny mind .
But you are not an unintelligent Dan? Surely
tha t was one of the thini.:c, s tha t should have crossed your
mind? ---- VVe ll I didn ' t think of it a t that til!le .
You have said that while in prison under
90 days on the first occasion , your Main reason for
mak ing your statenent was tha t if you were to be charged
you would be charged for the things that you knew about
and in which you believed?-----I said so,
I take it tha t that reason didn ' t wei gh
with you now when you decided to give evidence against
John l'JIkadiPl.eng?---- I did thinlc of it, but as far as
(20
(25
John Mkadineng was concerned I didn ' t believe in violence.
No, no tha t is not my ques tion . I an (30
putting i t to you that a lthough thiS , according to you,
was the principal motive for your nak ing your statAment
when/" . 0 v <
190 . Elias Kunene:
when you were under 90 days on the first occasion, this
was not the motive that prompted you ~hen you agreed to
give evidence against John Mkadimeng?---- That was the
reason be cause John Mkadi~eng, they were in favour of
violence. Because they hadn ' t told us, the cor:.n ittee, (5
about violenc e , and he went over our heads to go and
tell the other nenbers about violence .
Yes , you hove already given thnt as a reason~
I. fundanental d isagreer:ent between yourself and John
Mkadir'1eng on the question of violence .----I had snid (10
so , yes .
But you were now , apparently , in no danger
of being charged , as you thought you Might be charged ..
when you were in 90- day detention on the first occasion?
---- I knew in ny nind thRt I could still be charged. (15
Was it a very serious and grave fear?~---
I didn ' t want My naDe to be connected with people who
we r e in agreer1ent with violcnc e t because it was sor1etl1ing
that I didn ' t believe in at all .
Now I don ' t know if you are r:'isunders"tandinc(20
r'e or if you are deliberately evading the question . It
is a sinple Question . --- - No , T' n answering your Question .
I a~ not evading it .
Right: the question is was there a grave
and serious fear in your Dind that you would be charged?(25
-----Yes , it was . I have already answered your
question .
Even though J OU had been released on the
21s t Scptenber , 1963 , ['..no had heard nothing whatsoever
until Decenber of that year?---- - The fear was in n e (30
all the tine, whether I was going to be charged or not.
You didn ' t ask De under what condi~ons , what circuMstances
II . . . « ••
191. Elias Kunene:
1 was released . I was -told that ny sta-tenent would be
sent to the Attorney- General and then I would be
notified when they had heard a decision fro n hi~ whether
1 was going to be charged or not .
I see , so t his was hanging over your head?(5
----yes .
Have you at any tine received an intination
fron the authorities as to whether you a r e to be charged
or' not?-----When they called ne fo r the case of John
Mk~c ineng they told ne that whether 1 agree to go and (10
give evidence in the case or not, all those cases in
connecti on with the A. Non . in ny statenent that 1 rade ,
I was conc erned in then also , and that 1 was an acc orrplic e. have
Yes , but/you hear d as up to today whether
or not you are to be charged ?-----1 have not been told (15
yet~
So you give your evidence in this Court tod ay
with this fear still hanging over you?----Yes, the fear
is still there that I could be cha rged , but that is not the
reas on tha t has brought -le here to give evidence, (20
I af" not dis cussing -ehe reason -~LFl"~ has
brought you here. That fear is still with you? ----Yes,
it is there .
Now you bCt,ve the evidence in the i'lIkadil'"Lcng
case and you cane back -to the Durban area?----- Yes. (25
And thereafter you were approached to give
evidence in the Mbele case?~---Yes.
And you dec: led what .••. ?----I agreed to
go and give evidence.
And why did you agree in that r e5ard ? --------/30
Well I agreed to give evidence in that case . There was
nothing else that I could do . I didn : t ':,rant to go 21:d
sit/ .. q • • ,
Elia s Kunene:
the question . It ' s tho things that I had put in ny
statenent thAt caused ~e to go and give evidence in the
case .
Can I suggest to you tha t you had decided that
you would becone an instlnunent of the authorities in (5
these prosecutions?----'lnat is not so.
You are aware that as a c itizen of the
Republic you have got certain rights?--- - There is not
nuch that I knowo
Perhaps you didn't understand ny question(lO
I ar putting i t to you that as a person who is a
citizen of the Republic, and I would add a person who
has been interested in politics for years, you have
certain rights that nre secured to you by the laws of the
land .----yes . (15
And if you don't know then you know that you
can go to n lawyer?- - --l_sr
i{hat was your answer?·-- -- I said yes, I
understand.
Now you answered questions nfter your (20
first period of ~G days? ----yes.
You appar~ntly answered then SAtisfactorily
because you were released?----Yos.
In due COUl'se you surrendered yourself to the
aut ho r ities?----yes.
No charee bas been preferred against vou?
---Yes .
You have n' . Ctppe~red before a nagistrate
for re~~nd? ----Yes,
You are sttl1 in custody?----yes .
During the second period have you been
asked any questi ons': -'-'--Y8S.
V/h8.t/ ... ~ • •
(25
(30
Elias Kunene:
Ahat has been the nature of those questions?
---I handed nyself over to then. I told the]":') that I had
r un away and gone to 13asutoland. They ,asked 'Le where I had
been and I told then that I hQd run away to 13asutol~nd .
Did you answer 0.11 the questions that they(5
put to you?----yes .
Did you refuse to answer any questions?----
No , I did not.
Did you also reduce your replies to the forn
of a written state~ent? -----Yes, I did . I wrote it down . (lO
Y/as it typed?----1 had written it down with
ny own hands , then I reaj it over to sonebody else who
typed it . They cut a stencil and it was roneod .
Did you r83d the typed state~ent?----1 read it .
Did you co"p"'re it \7ith your written (15
stateient?--- - Yes .
Fo~nd it to Je corrcctr----Yes .
Was a copy hAnded to you? ----Yes .
When WRS that?----1 don ' t reDe~ber the date
~nv nore but it was June already then .
Early June? ----Yes,
~nd have you had th~t state~ent with you
in your detention?----Yes, I had jt ~nd then I handed it
back to then .
(20
For how loW; did vou keep it in your poss - (25
ess ion?----lt was together '/Vi th the old one , I think
I kept it three 'Necks .
And you ren; it sever31 tires, to while
away the tine ?----Ye ,J~ I read it .
And after that statenent had been
pr epared and handed to you were you asked any f urther
questions ?-- - -Yod, there are qU8stlons that I was asked .
( 30
What/ • . •••
195" Elias Kunene:
Wha t were t hose questions about?----They
s a id seeing I was there a rrested would I give evidence in
this case tha t I ~D Givi~; evidence on now .
Well tha t was n ore a request , But were you
questioned on any illcioents tha t ha d happened in the past(5
a fter this s econd sta terent of yours was conpleted?- ---
No, I don ' t rene~ber beca use everything that had happened
I ha d writt en down in rw statenent befor e I went away .
So as far a s you are concerned fron the
tiDe tha t you ha d completed the second staten ent
about your running away to Basutoland you have not been
questioned again by the police?----No , they did not
question n e t
(10
I t ake it that in due course this second
stater':1_ ent abo t t your running away was gone over with you( 15
by the pros ecutor shortly before this tria l?--- --Yes .
And npart fron that you had no further
contact with the authorities ?--- - (Prosecutor intervenes)
PROSECUTOR: Your «orship that is rather putting it a
li ttle bit vap-u ely , I SUbEli t . "Cont'l.ct with the (20
a uthorities lf - the ;Lan is in custo dy and I feel
" contact VJith the a uthorities " is too vague in that
sense .
MR . UNTERHAIlI'ER : My learned friend is quite right .
Apart fron tha t there have been no further(25
questionings of you by the police since early in
June ?----No, after I had }-'1ade the statsr'l ent they didn't
ask n e anything a gain .
As far as you are concerned you have answered
fully all the questions that were put to you?---
Yes, that is so .
You didn ' t r e fuse to answer any questions?
----No/ •.•..
(30
196 . Elias Kunene:
- - --No , I did not refuse e
It wasn ' t suggested to you by the police
that you were refusing?---- No .
Yet you are still in custody? - ---Yes , I an
still in custody ,
Mr . Kunene, the law in regard to this is that
vou arc required to be , or vou nay be detained in custody
until you have answered a ll questions satisf~ctorilv in
the opinion of the Connissioner of Police . Do you know
that?--- I know that . (10
Now in 'lieF of the fact tha t in your opinion
;you have answered all questions satisfactorily C1.n you
give any reason why you Cl.re still beinc held under 90
days?--- - I an not a lawyer but as far ~s I know the police
hnve the right to let ne ~o if thev think th'J. t I have (15
answBred all question8 to their satisfaction .
As for as J-Ju know you have given then no
rounds for thinking that your answers are unsatisfactory?
·----- I don 't know. As fE.::r as I aT" concerned nyself, I
know th'J.t I answered a ll the ques tions . (20
Yes . Now after you ansV'I(red the - answered
all the questions did you request your release?----
8.
At no stae.;e?----After/whilo I :)sked ·v hether
we were going to be chB,l" ~,;e d or not ,-::oin£; to lJe charged, (25
qnd they said they were still investig;ating .
Yes , well if you a re to be ch3r~ed ~nd the
police are investigati~ the correct procedure would be
if the i.nvestigations E'.re not complete -Go charge you on
the infornation thnt they have, bring you before a (30
nagistrate , lodge 'lOU in prison as an awaiting- trial
prisoner; do yOU know that?----I l~!lOW that.
That/ •• " ••
197 . Elias Kunene:
That hasn 't happene d t o you?----No ~ it hasn ' t .
Has it occasioned you SOTIe surprise that
t ha t hasn 't happened?----It does not sur prise ne t
We l l we will r evert to ny earlier question
which you haven 't answered . After you had answered (5
the ques t ions i n r egar d tv your flight to BRsutoland
did you r equest tha t you be released?----No , I did not
ask .
Now knowing what your rights are , as you
have already stated , wi ll you please tell his Worship ( lO
why you didn 't ask? ..... --- I wouldn ' t have asked for them
t o r elease me be cause the police had told ne they were
still investiGating and I was still expecting t o be charged
on the charges , and also for going away t o Basutoland .
I have alreadv told you, this is not the (15
~ay the law allows a ran to be detained in respe~t of
charGes . And you I ve said J-ou know i t. ---- I know that but
I d idn ' t want to trouble 'lyself because I knew that
after th~ t they would put ~e inside again .
Mr . Kunene , put very sioply, ny qUGstion(20
is this: why are you Rcquiescinc in a situation ~h8t on
the f~ce of it does not see~ to be warranted becuuae vou
have answered the questions .---- (INTERPRi~TBR~ -vlro ul d
you explain the word " e.cquiescing "?)
Accepting . Why are you accepting the (25
situ~tion of beine detained when on the face of it it
would appear you should be released t€ cause you have
answe r ed the ques t ions?--- - As far as I know I alreadv
knew then that I woulr: l)e charged for those charges,
t hose cases tho~ t I r an a 'Na y for. ( 30
But you haven ' t b~en charged?----- I have not
been charged yet but I had already been t old t hat I would
be/ Q • d 0 0
198 . Elias Kunene:
be charged but that the police were still investigating,
You ' ve said that a number of ti~es and you
are not in custody on the order of a nagistrate. ---- I ' n
not in custod~ on a MaGis trate's order , but of the
police .
it magistrate visits you once a week I presume?
----yes , he visits ne .
You know that this is the opportunity that
the law affords a nan to cOfl~unicate with the outside
world if he feels aggrieved? ----Yes , I know that . (10
Have you taken advantage of this oppor-,
tuni ty to discuss the natter with a Mac:istrate(I'~·----
No , I ' ve never worried p.yse lf to ask the T'mgistrate about
it because I know that go days have 'not passed yet sinc e
I ' ve been detained, and I was told that I an being (15
detained under the 90 days ,
Wel l for the record , for your tnfornation,
so that F'Y question shou1cl be perfectly clear, I am going
to read to you the relevant portion of Section 17 of
~ct No . 37 of 1963 . It deals with arrest without (20
warrant i f a person is suspected upon reas onable
grounds of having coro.1itted certain offences under the
Suppression of COT1f1unis'"1 Act or the Unlawful Organisations: QUOTJTION:
Act: And then it goes on to say this ~ If Gives power to
detain such person or c" use hin to be detained in
custody for interrogation in connection with the
cOf1nission or, or intention to cOrlT'1it such offence,
at any place he nay thi~~ fit until such person has
(25
in the opinion of the Connissioner of the SOl.1th African
Police , replied satisfnotorily to all questions at the(30
said interrogations, but no person shall be so detained
for nore than 90 days on any particular occasion when
he is so arrested , " QUOTATION ENTIS .
199 . Elias Kunene:
You will see fro~ that that the law doesn1t
say that a person must be detained for go days before he
is released . L person Day be detained until he has ans
wered questions satisfactori l y in the opinion of the
South African Co~nissioner of Police . (5
Now I want to put this to you, that any
ordinary person , havinG answered the questions in the
way you say you have , being satisfied that you ' d
answered them fully , and truthfully , would conplain to
a nagistrate about the lons delay on the part of the (10
authorities in releasinG you after your interrog~tion
was complete . He would raise heaven and earth to try
to get out of solitary confinement. And I want to know
fron you why you haven ' t even bothered to 6ake use of
what thE: law perr..its you to use, narwly the services (15
of a visiting nagistrate .--- - My reason is the police had
not told ne yet that they had finished with ~e .
I want to -_,ake the sane co mne nt that I J"1ade
earlier , is it possible that you have perhaps made up
your n ind to be an instru'1.ent of the authority in these(20
prosecutions?----That is not so .
Now co n ing to this case~ you were asked
to g ive evidence in this natter?----yes .
Where were you when that request was made
to you?--- - I was in the cells, as I still aT"1 now in the(25
cells in custody .
#e re you under 90- day detention when the
request was ~ad e to you~----Yes .
~'cnd did you agree to give the evidence?----
Yes .
When was the request made t o you?--- -
I don ' t rerer.;ber the day any more but June had already
passed . / •.•..
(30
200 ", Elias Kunene:
passed .
In the ~onth of July?----Round about there s
at the end of June .
IYSS anyt hing said to you about your g iving
of evidence in this case?----I want you to explain that (5
question to ne , I don ' t understand it .
Was any stat02nent in regard to the law made
to you about your g iving evidence in this case?-- --I
don ' t renem.bel:' .
It was only a little while ago /I ( 10
They said to me tha t even if r didn ' t give evidence in
the Ladys~i th case and I ran away the position as far es
I ' n concerned is still the s::me as what it was in that
case . I don ' t renembe r that there was any law which they
read out to rne . (15
L.s far as you are concerne d did you regard
your position as being ex~ctly the sa~e as the tine tha t
you were approached to Give evidence in the Mbele case?
--- - yes "
In your own mind , therefore , did you believe(~
trot you could have refus 2d if you ' d wanted to?----Do
you Ge3n to give evidence in this case?
Yes? ----Yes , I ~ould have refused if I
wanted to .
'ive ll now ·what was it that pror:lpted you (2:
to give your evidence in this case?--- -The first thing
I can say is that I was fed up , I was fed up. That
was the r eason tha t na:e ne give evidence in this
case . :11so the agreement which I had reached with
Ntlabati to go away, before I went away , and elso (3(
what nade TY'.e fed up anO ·'lade ne aGree to give
evidence in this case is the statement thqt I saw that
was/<- . ~ ,
Collection Number: AD1901
SOUTH AFRICAN INSTITUTE OF RACE RELATIONS, Security trials Court Records 1958-1978
PUBLISHER: Publishero- Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand Location:- Johannesburg ©2012
LEGAL NOTICES:
Copyright Not ice: All materials on the Historical Papers website are protected by South African copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed, transmitted, displayed, or otherwise published in any format, without the prior written permission of the copyright owner.
Disclaimer and Terms of Use: Provided that you maintain all copyright and other notices contained therein, you may download material (one machine readable copy and one print copy per page) for your personal and/or educational non-commercial use only.
People using these records relating to the archives of Historical Papers, The Library, University of the Witwatersrand, Johannesburg, are reminded that such records sometimes contain material which is uncorroborated, inaccurate, distorted or untrue. While these digital records are true facsimiles of the collection records and the information contained herein is obtained from sources believed to be accurate and reliable, Historical Papers, University of the Witwatersrand has not independently verified their content. Consequently, the University is not responsible for any errors or omissions and excludes any and all liability for any errors in or omissions from the information on the website or any related information on third party websites accessible from this website.
This document is part of a private collection deposited with Historical Papers at The University of the Witwatersrand.
