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MARICOPA COUNTY SHERIFFS OFFICEInternal Affairs Division

IA # 08-0080

Interview with Deputy Haarala, S1157April 7, 2011

HAARALA: Im, Im good at walkin. I like to walk.

PEARCE: Um hum.

HAARALA: In fact, its easier sometimes to walk than just stand there I said but you know you

just stop and stand.

PEARCE: Right.

HAARALA: So you could watch people that pass ya.

LICKING: Alright, (unintel 00:19).

HAARALA: And youll see and first off, you cant do anything with every.

LICKING: Okay, uh, time in is, uh, April 7th, 2011 and its about, uh, 9:05 a.m. Im Sergeant

Brad Licking, serial number 1122. And for the transcription we got Sergeant Cory

Morrison, 1509?

MORRISON: 1509, yeah.

LICKING: Um, Eric, can you go ahead and state your, uh, name and your serial number for

us, please.

HAARALA: My name is Eric Haarala, serial numbers 1-1-5-7.

LICKING: Okay. And you brought an employee observer with you?

Investigator: Sgt. B. Licking, S1122/Sgt. C. Morrison, S1509 Reviewer: Capt. K. Holmes #0982Typed by: A9998Date/Time: April 12, 2011/0740 hours Page 1 of 37

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HAARALA: Yes.

LICKING: Um, Sean, can you go ahead and state your name and serial number.

PEARCE: Sean Pearce, 1-0-1-6.

LICKING: Okay, alright. Um, before we started the, um, the interview here what I went

ahead and did is I just and this again for the sake of the transcription, I gave you

the, the Garrity Warning and the Notice of Investigation. Did you have any

questions about these?

HAARALA: No.

LICKING: Okay. I noticed that you signed these ones here, um, you got them both signed so

Ill go ahead and just initial this. (Pause) Um, and in the sense of trying to save

some time and what not, weve got, uh, a couple of, uh, CP-2 violations that

weve written down, um, and these allegedly came up during and this, obviously,

when you look at the IA case number its IA case 08-0080, um, very old case.

HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: Um, its somethin that had gotten worked by previous IA investigators, uh,

couple of years ago. Um, and but it was, it was never completed.

HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: So they, they did an extensive amount of work. I mean I, I literally have volumes

of, of binders and what not and, um.

(Phone sounds)


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LICKING: (Chuckle) And just so you know, um, can you do me a favor just well just goahead and turn that off. Mines actually on as well but.

HAARALA: Oh, mines on vibrate. You want it off?

LICKING: Okay, yeah, if you can just turn it off that would be great.

HAARALA: Sure.

LICKING: Um, and it finally came to light that this case had never actually gotten an official,

um, finding for it and so.

HAARALA: When you say the case, my case or the whole case?

LICKING: Just the whole case in general.

HAARALA: Okay.

LICKING: Um, and in this case, uh, your name had come up...

HAARALA: Okay.

LICKING: at one point so, um, and you and I have never worked together and what not

so

HAARALA: No.

LICKING: could you tell me how long youve been workin for the Sheriffs Office?


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HAARALA: Next month will be 14 years Sworn. I did, uh, six months DO before that so

August will be 15 years with the County.

LICKING: Okay, perfect. And in that time, um, what different positions have you held with

the Sheriffs Office?

HAARALA: Uh, well, Detention Officer for six months and then Academy Recruit. And then,

uh, Patrol Officer, District I Detective, back to Patrol. I did six months in Court

Security. Um, I did about two months in Jail Crimes and then I did about two

years in Sex Crimes. Went back to Jail Crimes for about two weeks and then back

to Patrol.

LICKING: Okay. Do you remember the dates that you were assigned to, um, Sex Crimes?

HAARALA: Yeah. I wanna say it was February 05 to April 07.

LICKING: Okay. Um, and in that time, um, who, who was your supervisor?

HAARALA: First it was Darrell Newton for the first year, and then I went TDY to Auto Theft

when they were doin that big, uh, um, tow case thing.

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: And so then I dont remember who, who the supervisor was then but that was only

for a few months, then I went back to Sex Crimes and it was Kim Seagraves.

LICKING: Okay. Alright. Um, this particular case really kinda stems around, um, an

investigation that was started at the time, um, the Sheriffs Office actually had a

contract with the, uh, city of El Mirage.


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HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: Um, there were a lot of cases and, and to be honest with you, there was, there was

just a lot of, uh, anomalies that were poppin up at the time and it was mainly just

because we had just taken over. They were havin issues with, um, whether it was

El Mirage Officers showing up, um, or Deputies showing up,

HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: um, we had two different dispatching. We had the city of El Mirage dispatching;

we had the Sheriffs Office dispatching.

HAARALA: Right. I heard, I heard a lot of the different things.

LICKING: Okay. So, um, obviously, they started, uh, this particular investigation and.

HAARALA: My understanding was that cases werent cleared properly or closed properly?

LICKING: Right.

HAARALA: Yeah.

LICKING: Right. And that was, that was, uh, the beginning of the investigation.

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: And so they, they did an extensive audit. Uh, uh, Lieutenant Kevin Riddle,

obviously, hes no longer with us. Uh, one of the Sergeants at the time had done a,

a very big audit of the Sex Crimes Unit at the time. And some of the things that

they came up with, um, you know there were some concerns about, uh, case


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management and case clearance, um, the way evidence was being processed and

things like that.

So, um, and just briefly, Eric, um, and well kinda cover this a little bit more but

briefly the one of the issues that came up, one of the concerns was that, um, and

please correct me if Im wrong. Um, one of the things you know before we get too

in depth, I just do wanna, um, and, and I know we talked about this on the phone

the other day. But, um, our Policy CP-5, which is obviously our Truthfulness

Policy.

HAARALA: Um hum, sure.

LICKING: Um,

HAARALA: Im well aware of that.

LICKING: you know the last thing we ever wanna do is ask a question knowing that we

already know the answer you know type thing

HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: and put you in a position where whether youre embarrassed or you dont recall

you know whatever and you make a statement thats thats not 100 percent true. I,

I just and obviously.

HAARALA: Just so I understand, are you saying youre not gonna ask me any questions that

you already know the answer to? Thats what it sounded like you said.

LICKING: Well, Im, Im gonna try not to put you in a position


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HAARALA: Oh, okay, um hum.

LICKING: where.

HAARALA: Cause thats good Detectives work to, to already know the answer when you ask

a question.

LICKING: Well, yeah, obviously, but

HAARALA: Yeah.

LICKING: the way we look at it

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: I dont wanna put your, um, your position on the line.

HAARALA: Right. No, I understand. I.

LICKING: I dont wanna put job on the line.

HAARALA: You know what? Ive always said, Ill take my lumps if I did somethin wrong but

my character means more to me than

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: you know what else is going on.

LICKING: Right.


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HAARALA: Okay.

LICKING: Um, the main concern that came up with this particular investigation when your

name came up, um, it was mentioned that when you, uh, transferred out of the

Special Victims Unit, um, that they found out later that you had taken some

evidence with you home. Um, thats thats basically what, what they had said. And

that whether it was in boxes or whatever but that you had stored it, um, some

items of evidence possibly in your garage.

HAARALA: Thats what theyre saying.

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: Thats their opinion.

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: Yes.

LICKING: Alright, um, and that I guess later when they asked you about it, uh, you had, you

had turned those items over to them

HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: and they had actually gone through and done an inventory of those items.

HAARALA: Right, to Sergeant Lugo.

LICKING: Okay. Okay, so you, you recall


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HAARALA: Oh, sure.

LICKING: all of that? Okay, perfect. Do you know, um, how many different items? Oh, in

fact, before we get into that so you recall at least Sergeant Lugo, who was doing

the audit

HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: of the Special Victims Unit at the time contacting you in regards to that?

HAARALA: Well, I didnt know he was doing audits of anything. He just contacted me.

LICKING: Okay. Um, how, how did that come about? I mean what did he ask you?

HAARALA: Okay. I left Sex Crimes, uh, somebody else took my position. I got a call from this

person months later, maybe you know I, I dont mean not even sure on the times,

maybe a year later? Im not sure. And she said, uh, hey, Im lookin for photos of

this house that I took in Fountain Hills when I was on Patrol and I sent to you

guys on a fireman who was accused of date raping some girls. And see I remember

those photos. She goes, I cant find them. I said well, I left them with my file and

then shes not the one who took over when I left. She was the second one after

me.

LICKING: Is, is this maybe Gerry Edgar, is this?

HAARALA: Yeah, yeah. And, uh, I said if theyre not in the filing and if theyre not in Property,

I dont know where they are. It was just on a disc. They werent printed out that I

recall. And she said she couldnt find them. I said well, you know Ive got copies

of stuff that I that I have co- second copies of interviews and things like that. I said

let me look through those. Next thing I know a couple weeks later, Greg Lugo


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calls says I hear you have evidence. You need to bring it in right now.

LICKING: Um hum.

HAARALA: I said, uh, well, I have copies of stuff. And the reason I had copies, when I was

there for two years, every time I would do a inter- interview, I would make a copy.

The original would go into Property and I dont know if youve dealt with the

County Attorney but inevitably, they want your tape or your copy that you already

sent them and now you have to get out of Property or you have to have somebody

in Property make a copy or its just a hassle so I made a second copy. I kept it in

my office and when I left, these copies I just needed to destroy them. These were

these, these were either seconds or they or were originals of no evidentiary value.

Like Ill come and talk to some, uh, a kid at Child Health and shell you know I

hear Uncle Charlie, somethin happened you know. We had ice cream. We went to

the circus. No evidentiary value. I put that in my supplement but I dont put the,

uh, tape into Property because its, its not for anything. Its, its a document just

document and if the case ever re-came up, the child would have to give evidence

of a crime so there was no crime. So anyways, I have all these tapes. I just wanna

get rid of them. But in my entire time in the Sheriffs Office, Ive never known of

anywhere to destroy or, uh, get rid of VCR or CDs. I mean you can, you can put

one CD in little stripper you know like we have in the back computer room, but I

had dozens and dozens and dozens you know over the years and I didnt wanna

just throw them away. I mean thats thats irresponsible.

LICKING: Well, let, let me ask you this then. I mean

HAARALA: Yeah.

LICKING: when you talk about Detective work I, I would think that that would be very if,

if the particular victim at one time had said somethin had happened,


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HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: you go back and interview them and they say something didnt happen, you

dont consider that a valid piece of evidence?

HAARALA: No, no, no. Theyve, theyve never told me that

LICKING: Oh.

HAARALA: that something happened. Thats why I would have the original not in Evidence.

LICKING: Okay. But you said that if you were to talk to somebody, um, obviously, you

wouldnt be talkin to somebody unless you first got a face sheet from

somebody

HAARALA: Right, right.

LICKING: sayin that theres a, theres at least an allegation of something.

HAARALA: Right. Mom would say my little kid said Uncle Charlie touched her on the pee pee.

LICKING: So.

HAARALA: Well, we cant take that so we have to interview the child.

LICKING: Right. So you said that once you interview the child and you find out that theres

no supporting evidence, you dont consider that a vital piece of evidence for that

particular case?


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HAARALA: No.

LICKING: What if they, what if they came back later six months later and said no, you know

what, they did?

HAARALA: No, I understand that. But the child would have to be reinterviewed cause the

child didnt disclose any information

LICKING: Right.

HAARALA: on this tape. But I document that.

LICKING: Im just thinkin it from investigator side.

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: You know you have to cover all your bases,

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: so obviously, the defense attorneys gonna want a copy of the original saying

now look, six months ago they said nothin happened and now six moths later

theyre sayin somethin did happen.

HAARALA: Im not sayin I didnt make a mistake cause, obviously, I wouldnt be here if I

didnt make a mistake. But in my mind, I didnt take evidence with me. I took

something that I wanted to destroy and if I had a box that said tapes and CDs

here, it would have been in there before I left GID.

LICKING: I, I guess the, the main concern about the evidence being taken out of there


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HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: would have, would have just simply been if anythings marked an original,

HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: um, I mean thats thats what they consider something thats you know vitally

important for a case, whether it exonerates someone or not you know or I mean,

obviously.

HAARALA: You use the word vitally important and I, and I dont so thats why were here. So

I mean I guess if, if youre sayin or if somebody above us or Policy is saying this

is evidence, it has to go into Property then thats where I made my mistake. But in

my mind, I didnt take guns or marijuana or cash or you know I didnt take

evidence. I took my

LICKING: Right.

HAARALA: disposables so what I thought were.

LICKING: But when, when you get down to it, evidence is evidence. You cant say that well,

this piece of evidence is more important than another one.

HAARALA: Well, again, in, in, in my.

LICKING: I mean if, if its an original piece of evidence, its. I guess my, my, my question

then would be why werent these pieces actually just put into Property? I mean if

you didnt know how to dispose of it, I mean when I, when I was investigator out

in District II,


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HAARALA: Uh huh.

LICKING: you know if I had a piece and I didnt know what to do with it or whatever, I

just, I just put it into Property.

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: I mean its one of those things where I just. That way.

HAARALA: You remember with every once in a while, we dont, I havent seen them in years

but wed get these pieces of paper. Hey, this DR number from seven years ago,

you wanna keep it or destroy it? Im goin how the heck do I know? This is seven

years ago. I have no idea what the County Attorney did with it or anything else. So

I didnt wanna put something into Property that had no evidentiary value. And you

said or mentioned somethin about it being evidentiary value. Well, Im the case

agent. Im the one that says its not evidentiary value. This is a conversation on

tape. That does not make it evidence. And again, if Im wrong, Im wrong in that

aspect, okay?

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: Do, do you know what Im sayin?

LICKING: I, I can see kinda your point of view if you dont think something is more

important than something else where you know

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: where that would be. I guess nuts and bolts,


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HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: anything that we do in this Office

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: you know we talk to somebody, its evidence you know. I mean thats, I mean

thats what it comes down to. Now whether or not were gonna use that in our

case later and were gonna actually point back to that say yes, on this date and

time I did this, so and so said this, this is what I found,

HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: um, it might not actually be part of your written piece that you are actually

goanna testify in court; but technically, its all evidence. Would you agree with

that?

HAARALA: I dont quite grasp all of that but, but again, as a case agent, Im the one thats

sayin whats evidence. In my mind this is something I need to protect for future

use. I have 40 minutes of nothing thats pertinent to my case that proves or

disproves or otherwise, so in my mind, this is nothing. If I put into Property thats

why we built a new building, cause we have more Property and bigger Property.

And Im not trying to keep the Property guys from working. Thats not my thing.

LICKING: Well, Im just tryin to that I guess that would be my question then you know.

Based on that if, if it really wasnt that big of a deal, I mean if, if I write somethin

down like say in here, were talking, I write something down and make a note

later.


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HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: I go I dont need that; I throw it away.

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: Obviously, you felt it was important enough for you to keep it cause you had, you

had.

HAARALA: Well, its somebodys personal information. Im not gonna just throw it in the

dumpster behind my house.

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: You know and I dont have anywhere to destroy it

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: well, that I know of.

LICKING: Okay. Well, did you ask anybody what to do with it?

HAARALA: N- I dont remember asking anybody specifically. Im sure I brought it up here and

there. I said, where do you get rid of if somebody said? I, I, I probably had

because I remember somebody said somewhere behind the ball park on Third

Avenue theres the warehouse and they go I think they take it. I go okay, I dont,

never.

LICKING: Well, did you follow up with that after that?


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HAARALA: I (clears throat).

LICKING: I mean, obviously, you got some questions about stuff.

HAARALA: Yeah.

LICKING: Youre not sure what to do with this.

HAARALA: Right. And I know you know who would say.

LICKING: And like I said I, I havent looked at these pieces.

HAARALA: Yeah.

LICKING: I couldnt tell and Im not, Im not here to judge you on whether or not you did a

good job

HAARALA: No, I understand.

LICKING: and, and wh- you know whether somethin was considered evidence.

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: or not. But its just my job to figure out what was your frame of mind at the

time. What you know if, if it wasnt you know evidence, then why didnt you

throw it away? And if you kept it,

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: then, then obviously, I guess in my mind, theres some- theres somethin.


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HAARALA: Sure.

LICKING: Hang on just a second. In my mind what Im thinking is that well, you thought

theres some value to this and you know you cant just throw it away in your own

personal garbage can you know type thing.

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: Um, so thats I guess the concern that was raised in the investigation, okay?

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: Let me, let me ask you this because I, Ive actually got a list of stuff here. This was

actually taken from, um, the audit itself that Lieutenant Kevin Riddle did and youll

see, uh, not, not all of those but the majority of those do say originals on them.

And I think thats thats what they were mainly concerned with.

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: Um, you know if, if youve got an original on anything and its not actually listed

as a copy of somethin, obviously, thats gonna peak somebodys interest. Well,

this is actually a, a what we would consider a vital piece of evidence in a case. Um,

I mean copies you know I mean obviously you go down to the County Attorneys

office and have them make copies for us all the time. We do that you know type

thing but any time you see somethin with a label on it that says original that just

certainly peaks your interest and what not so.

HAARALA: Sure.


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LICKING: Um, you know there were several pieces that actually got documented. This part

down here at the bottom that just has to do with somethin else

HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: but these specific pieces, um, said that they had, it was somethin that was

turned over from you. So these particular pieces I mean does this look accurate?

HAARALA: Now are you saying?

LICKING: And I know its been a long time so its kinda hard to.

HAARALA: I, I, this seems familiar I think with that when Greg Lugo called me and he had

everything all spread out and documented and he said these, these you know need

to go.

LICKING: Right. And, and it was me and some of the stuff is 07 type thing. Some of it goes

back to 06, 05. I wouldnt be able to just look at that list and go oh, yeah, thats

definitely or its not.

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: But does this look like it would be something familiar with how you might label

something?

HAARALA: Well, I dont understand the question.

LICKING: If, if you were to label something as a piece of evidence, I mean is this, I mean the,

the way its written here like some of these says, uh, um, the way its listed as, as

an original. I mean did you write original or copy or that type of stuff on your?


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HAARALA: Sure, yes.

LICKING: Okay. Um, these particular pieces of, um, were just gonna call them pieces of

evidence. Um, where were they when, when you turn them over to, um, Greg

Lugo?

HAARALA: Yeah.

LICKING: You said these, these items you turned over to Greg Lugo, is that right?

HAARALA: Yeah, the whole box. They were, where was this box?

LICKING: Right.

HAARALA: It was in my locker at District VII when he called and said he wanted them.

LICKING: Oh, okay. Did, it was under and the way the audit was written up is that you had

actually taken some of those pieces home with you, is that?

HAARALA: Well, when I left GID and before I got to District VII, I did have them in my

garage. I dont remember how long.

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: I, I, honestly, dont but yes, they were in my garage for one point. But I had a big

locker at District VII. I knew I you know you know that TV show hoarders? Ive

never seen it; Ive heard about it and Im not a hoarder. But I mean this is kinda

like a stupid thing for me to do to hang onto this cause I know Im done with it. I

dont want it. But I didnt know what to do with it. And I didnt, did I ask


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anybody? No, I, I should have. But I wasnt, I wasnt being deceitful. I wasnt

being dishonest. I wasnt telling somebody I didnt have it or I didnt do it. I justhad this stuff that I thought I gotta get rid of this stuff and its I take it from work

to home, from home to District VII and its in there for a year, whatever. And its

like then I get the phone call, its like well, good now I can get rid of this stuff and

he takes it and the next thing I know were goin through this. I spent three days in

GID three years ago probably these items putting them into Property and the other

things you know that were destroyed, Im assuming so.

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: So.

LICKING: And you know and like I said, I can understand that. So I mean if you didnt think,

and I dont wanna put any words in your mouth, so correct me if Im wrong. Are

you saying that these particular items that you had transported from SVU to your

home and then back to District VII before they got turned back over, in your mind

they had very little or no evidentiary value to any cases, is that correct?

HAARALA: Correct, correct.

LICKING: Okay. Um, when you mentioned before that, uh, Geri Edgar had called you about

some photos,

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: did, were you able to provide those to her?

HAARALA: No, no.


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LICKING: So you,

HAARALA: I didnt have those.

LICKING: you didnt have those?

HAARALA: No.

LICKING: Okay. Um, you know and like I said, were not here to point fingers at anybody.

HAARALA: No, I understand.

LICKING: Its just the concern was raised and so thats

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: you know why we have to ask the questions, so. Let me, Im just gonna read

these because these were actually on your, uh, Notice of Investigation. Im gonna

read these Policies. Im just gonna ask you if you feel any way that you violated

these Policies.

HAARALA: Okay.

LICKING: Um, you know Im not here to tell you yeah, you did this. Im just gonna ask you,

okay like this is the Policy.

HAARALA: Okay.

LICKING: Uh, CP-2.1A, uh, obviously, its under the Code of Conduct. Uh, its

Conformance of Office Directives and Established Laws. A says, uh, employees


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shall conform to provisions of all written Policy, except those to be found

unlawful, incorrect or inapplicable to violation of written Policy or withoutarticulatable justification may result in disciplinary action. Do you feel that you

violated that in anyway by not following Policy?

HAARALA: I, I thought that was kind of an introduction. I was waitin for you to get to

somethin but could you read it one more time?

LICKING: Um, okay. And in a nutshell, basically, it says hey look, you gotta follow all the

laws and Policies out there.

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: Do you feel like you violated any Policy in any way?

HAARALA: Well, Im 50/50 on that. At the time I didnt. Now if, if somebody says this is

evidence, then obviously, I did.

LICKING: Okay. Um, the next one is, uh, CP-2.11F and it says employees are derelict in the

per-, uh, its titled Performance or Dereliction of Duty. It says, uh, employees are

derelict in the performance of their duties when they willfully or negligently fail to

perform them or when they perform in them in a grossly inefficient manner, when

the failure is with full knowledge of the duty and an intention not to perform it, the

omission is willful. When the non-performance is a lack of ordinary care, the

omission is negligent. Um, do you feel like you violated that?

HAARALA: I dont.

LICKING: Okay.


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HAARALA: Um, I never that that makes it sound like there, there was decep- deception in

choice and short cuts and, and I dont feel like that.

LICKING: Right, whether they change it from willful and negligent, right.

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: The other means that basically you just you knew what you were supposed to do,

you just didnt do it.

HAARALA: And I dont believe that was the case.

LICKING: Okay. Uh, lets see the next one is, uh, CP-2, uh, 29 and this, uh, particular one is

B4 and its titled, Incompetence or Failure to Meet Standards. Uh, B says

incompetence may be demonstrated by the following and number four is failure to

make reasonable decisions or take appropriate actions. Do you feel you violated

that?

HAARALA: Maybe the second part, failed to take reasonable action. Its not really reasonable

to lug old stuff around to get rid of it. I should have found somewhere, somebody

who could tell me how to get rid of it.

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: So maybe 25 percent of that second part.

LICKING: Okay. But to be fair to you, I mean you, you felt that at least the evidence, itself,

um, I mean there was, there was no really any evidentiary value to

HAARALA: Correct.


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LICKING: what you were lugging around? Okay, its just the fact that and like, again, Idont wanna put any words in your mouth but just the fact that you may have

taken somethin that was case re- well just call it case related

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: home might not have been

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: the most appropriate thing. Okay. Um, the last one is CP-2, uh, 33B. Uh, 33 is,

uh, titled it says Abuse of Process, Withholding Evidence and Mis-

Misappropriation of Property. Um, B says employees shall secure all items of

evidence in designated Property lockers or other authorized secured areas as soon

as possible. Employees shall not leave evidence in vehicles, in personal lockers or

in, in or on desks or in other areas in which it could be subject- subjected to

possible tampering or theft. Contraband should also be placed promptly in

appropriate, uh, in, in an appropriate location and in destruction or other

disposition. Um, you feel you violated that?

HAARALA: No.

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: And again, thats talking about evidence and I didnt consider that evidence at the

time. And again, if you wanna say this is evidence now then yes, but at the time no.

LICKING: Okay, okay. Um, do you have anything?


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MORRISON: I got a couple of questions just for my own clarification.

HAARALA: Okay.

MORRISON: Um, when you did these interviews that you did not feel had evidentiary value, you

wrote supplements that documented these interviews?

HAARALA: Right, correct.

MORRISON: Those supplements, in those supplements did you state to the best of your

recollection, um, that you did record the interviews but you did not feel that they

had, uh, evidentiary value so they would not be placed in Property or would not be

retained?

HAARALA: I can say the second part, no. I, I wouldnt put that in there. But the first part, I

almost always said this was recorded for future reference or something to that

effect generally in most of my interviews.

MORRISON: Okay, but you didnt document anywhere in the supplement that you werent

going to, um, keep the recording?

HAARALA: No.

MORRISON: Okay. But yet you still turned in the supplement without a Property sheet, correct

so anybody who was reviewing it would see that you werent turning in Property

with it?

HAARALA: Right, sure.

MORRISON: And those supplements were signed off by the supervisors you had at the time?


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HAARALA: Sure.

MORRISON: Was it your understanding that they, um, did not have issue your current, your

supervisors at the time that you actually worked there, obviously, it was before

Lugo?

HAARALA: I, I can, I never worked for Lugo, well, under

MORRISON: Right.

HAARALA: Jail Crimes for a short period. But, uh, I cant answer what my supervisors

Darrell Newton or Kim Seagraves thought or didnt think cause I never had any

interaction with them, except for you know I never had any counseling. I never

had any you know you need to do a better job. I always got good evals. Um, not

as good, Darrell gave me the best one in that not so much, well, thats another

story but, uh, um, I never. I, I didnt know what they thought or didnt think.

MORRISON: Okay, but at the least, uh, none of your supervisors never came to you and said

hey, wheres the Property sheet for this? I see you recorded an interview but it

doesnt look like youre?

HAARALA: No, no.

MORRISON: Okay.

HAARALA: And then you know getting back to that if I put in there that this was recorded for

future reference or whatever you know the investigations fluid. This is, this is the

meat of the investigation. All of a sudden, its not; theres nothing there. He said

he didnt do it. I dont have any evidence that he did do it. The kid said nothing


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happened. So now I have a piece of plastic and magnetic tape or whatever thats

no longer so its fluid. So I didnt write it in there and just not do it. I wrote it inthere expecting to do it but there was nothing there so I didnt do it so half way,

changed my mind, continued the investigation.

MORRISON: Do you at least document in the supplement that you did not feel the interview

contained anything of evidentiary value?

HAARALA: No. I just no, I wouldnt put my opinion in there.

MORRISON: Okay.

HAARALA: I would put that in my, uh, Clearance sheet generally.

MORRISON: Um hum.

HAARALA: I mean in my opinion the supplement stands on its own that theres no evidentiary

value.

MORRISON: Gotcha, okay.

LICKING: Right, but you said that you, you wouldnt write that in there, though.

HAARALA: Not in there, not in, not at the end of my supplement.

LICKING: Okay.

HAARALA: I wouldnt like.

LICKING: I guess the question I would have then and any defense attorney that would look at


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somethin like that you know, you know, you know as well as I do, their job is to

pick apart what we do.

HAARALA: Sure.

LICKING: So if you say hey, Ive you know this was recorded for future reference?

HAARALA: Um hum.

LICKING: Um, in my opinion there needs to be at least a copy of it somewhere you know the

original needs to put somewhere so that at least somebody can go back later, pull

that tape and go, yeah, theres nothin there.

HAARALA: I understand what youre saying but.

LICKING: Because what, what youre leading people to believe in your report when you

write that is yeah, there is a copy for future reference. We cant reference

somethin if youve, obviously, taken it home or destroyed or whatever so.

HAARALA: Right. But and I understand your, your, your logic but it never went to the

prosecutor. It never got turned in. It never got that far and if it did, it would have

got there with the second interview that gave me those that I needed and that

would have been with it. And then if we got to court and, and Im, Im not

rationalizing. Im just telling you my, my thought process.

LICKING: Sure.

HAARALA: If we got to court and that question said well, wheres the first tape where they

didnt say anything? Id say well, they didnt say anything so I had destroyed it. I

didnt put it into Property. I didnt see any evidentiary value. And again, thats my


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decision as a case agent. Is that wrong? I think thats why were here, okay? I

mean I, would I do that again? No, Id put every match book in Property beforeId come through this again you know what I mean? So.

LICKING: You know, unfortunately, I mean we all know I mean if it comes back to the

exclusionary rule that well, if certain pieces of evidence excludes a, a defendant,

the defense attorney wants to know that you know type thing. So you know if, if

you were to, I only say this for you know say future reference and what not but

HAARALA: Right.

LICKING: um, but I mean were not gonna beat the. Did you have anything else?

MORRISON: No, Im good I just.

LICKING: Okay. Were gonna take a quick break. Um, you guys are, uh, welcome to, uh,

talk here. Do you guys need a drink or need to use the restroom or anything?

HAARALA: No, Im good, thanks.

LICKING: So, okay, take a quick break, uh, talk to my Lieutenant real quick and be right

back.

HAARALA: Okay.

LICKING: Uh.

HAARALA: Is the camera still on?

LICKING: Yeah.


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HAARALA: Well be on? Okay.

LICKING: (Unintel 30:26). Uh, time out is about 9:35.

MORRISON: Although, if you guys do wanna step out of the room so you can talk so its not

recorded,

HAARALA: Right.

MORRISON: you guys can come out here

HAARALA: Okay.

MORRISON: to the couch or whatever just let us know.

HAARALA: Right, thank you.

HAARALA: So now that you know whats goin on, has your opinion of me changed?

PEARCE: No.

HAARALA: (Chuckle)

PEARCE: I thought it was pretty, pretty clear why you you know made the decision you

made.

HAARALA: Yeah. Mistake? Yeah. Should I have taken that box of crap home? No. Would I

do it again? No. But it happened the way it happened and we.


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PEARCE: Well, I remember being in Patrol and there was no formality of getting rid of

certain stuff.

HAARALA: Um hum.

PEARCE: I mean like you say you spend an hour at the shredder shreddin all of your old

folders cause you didnt feel like you could throw them in the dumpster

HAARALA: Um hum.

PEARCE: like you said, theres some personal information. I think, uh, Morrison?

HAARALA: Um hum.

PEARCE: Brought up a, a good question. That is you got a supervisor who reviews those,

those reports.

HAARALA: Right.

PEARCE: (Unintel 31:33) there was an issue with that.

HAARALA: Right.

PEARCE: And the supervisor should have addressed it.

HAARALA: Um hum.

PEARCE: Yeah, so.

HAARALA: Well, I can live with this. I mean I, I did what I did and I told them what I told


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them and they can decide what they want. I mean theyre just gonna say you know

yeah or nay, Policy violation and send it whoever. But (pause) you thinkin it wasgonna be girls or?

PEARCE: No, no, I know youre married. I knew it wasnt gonna be, it wasnt gonna be

anything that was gonna change my opinion of you.

(Pause)

PEARCE: (Unintel 32:29) point where you just gotta tie up these loose ends on investigation

you know completely.

HAARALA: Um hum. You know, uh, did you, did you about that El Mirage sex crimes

investigation that was going on? There was a lot of talk about cases not being

cleared, not being worked or being cleared without being worked. And then I

thought you know what? I never saw that in the guys I worked with. Nobody ever

came to me and questioned me about any of my cases, so I didnt know where any

of that was comin from or goin.

PEARCE: I heard just through the rumor pull I guess or just discussion from those people

that there was some issues with Seagraves.

HAARALA: Yeah, yep.

(Pause)

PEARCE: I just dont have enough time in my day to try to keep up with everybody elses

HAARALA: Yeah.


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PEARCE: rumors they wanna discuss.

HAARALA: So your boss knows youre up here?

PEARCE: Yeah, I told Garland was clockin out for.

HAARALA: Well, this is you, you cant do this on the clock?

PEARCE: No.

HAARALA: Oh, I didnt know that.

PEARCE: I dont mind, though.

HAARALA: I thought it was Office related.

PEARCE: No. As I understand it, you gotta be on your own time.

HAARALA: Yeah. Am I on my own time here?

PEARCE: No, I dont think you are but me as a employee rep or whatever.

HAARALA: Yeah.

PEARCE: I think you have to be on your personal time.

HAARALA: I didnt expect them to corner me and beat me, but I still wanted you here cause

you, youve been up here before and you, you know how things work.

PEARCE: Yeah.


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HAARALA: I just wanted a.

PEARCE: I sat for four hours in that chair one day.

HAARALA: Yeah?

PEARCE: Four hours gettin grilled. I was livid.

HAARALA: Did you have anybody with you?

PEARCE: Huh uh. I sat on the edge of my seat several times.

LICKING: Alrighty.

PEARCE: Ill be foamin at the mouth. I dont wanna (unintel 34:33).

LICKING: Time back in is about, uh, 9:47 so, um, Eric, we dont have anything else, any

other questions or anything.

HAARALA: Okay.

LICKING: So, um, like I said, um, youre entitled to five minutes so if you wanna make any,

any type of clarification statements that type you just remember its not a question

and answer thing.

HAARALA: Right, right.

LICKING: So, uh, the floor is yours.


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HAARALA: Well, I figure when you told me yesterday I had five minutes that I would want to

use those five minutes, but I think you gave me opportunity to fill in the blanksduring your questions and I think its pretty, uh, pretty you know where you, you

got a good idea where Im coming from, right, wrong or indifferent. So I really

dont need those five minutes.

LICKING: Okay. I dont have anything else.

MORRISON: No, um, we didnt really go over the employee observer paperwork, but you

understood it, right?

PEARCE: Yeah.

MORRISON: Okay.

PEARCE: Question came up but I think I know the answer. But as an employee observer,

youre up here on your own time, right?

LICKING: That is correct.

PEARCE: Yeah, see thats yeah.

HAARALA: And Im on the clock?

MORRISON: Yes, you are.

HAARALA: Okay.

PEARCE: I understand that the Sergeant was on the clock for the length of the interview.


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MORRISON: Okay.

LICKING: Glad you brang that up.

PEARCE: I just didnt know if it changed and I just wanted to clarify it.

LICKING: Yeah, unfortunately, no.

PEARCE: Okay.

LICKING: Okay.

PEARCE: Alright, so now (unintel 35:49).

LICKING: Right, yeah.

HAARALA: I know you guys cant tell me whats gonna happen but what, whats the timeline

for when things happen?

LICKING: You know just for the sake of the transcription, Ill answer all that afterwards.

HAARALA: Okay.

LICKING: So, um, time out is Im gonna end the interview about 9:40.


Documents

08-0080 Haarala IA