02-09-11Transcript-Day32

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

1/56

1Edward Vanderboom (for AGBC)

1 February 9, 20112 Vancouver, B.C.34 (DAY 32)5 (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 10:00 A.M.)67 THE CLERK: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of8 British Columbia at Vancouver, this 9th day of9 February, 2011, recalling the matter concerning10 the constitutionality of section 293 of the11 Criminal Code, My Lord.1213 EDWARD VANDERBOOM, a

14 witness for the AGBC,15 recalled.1617 MR. OLTHUIS: My Lord, I would like to begin by18 expressing my thanks for the indulgence on19 scheduling, both to the Court and to my friends20 and to the witness as well. I very much21 appreciate it.22 THE COURT: Thank you.23 MR. OLTHUIS: My Lord, what we've done in preparation24 for my cross-examination this morning is we've25 prepared a binder which I have given to my friends26 which contains a number of tabs and documents

27 behind each tab. I don't intend on taking the28 witness to all of these. I will be taking him to29 some of these reports and documents and asking30 that they be marked as exhibits, but I'm in31 Your Lordship's hands. At this stage I'm happy to32 have this marked as an exhibit for identification33 or I can simply use the binder as something of an34 aid.35 THE COURT: Well, let's mark it for identification so36 that it's on the record and we'll play it by ear37 as we go through the cross as to what has to be38 marked as exhibit proper.39 MR. OLTHUIS: Thank you, My Lord. I do then have one40 copy for Your Lordship. One for Madam Registrar.41 THE CLERK: This is Exhibit W for identification,42 My Lord.43 THE COURT: Thank you.4445 EXHIBIT W: 1 black 1.5" binder, untitled; 1 page46 index; tabs 1 - 16; p/c; some documents47 double-sided; p/c.

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

2/56

2Edward Vanderboom (for AGBC)Cross-exam by Mr. Olthuis

12 MR. OLTHUIS: And I have one for the witness, as well.34 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. OLTHUIS:5 Q Mr. Vanderboom, good morning. My name is Brent6 Olthuis. I'm counsel for the Canadian Coalition7 for the Rights of Children and the David Asper8 Centre for Constitutional Rights. I just wanted9 to ask you a few questions this morning, and10 again, I thank you for making yourself available11 this morning.12 I wanted to begin, first of all, with

13 hopefully some clarification of some evidence that14 you provided yesterday that I was left somewhat15 unclear about. You discussed yesterday the16 inspection process.17 A Yes.18 Q And you referred to matters that one reviews or19 that committees review on external evaluation?20 A Excuse me, start again. I which?21 Q You referred to a series of criteria or matters22 that an external evaluation committee would23 review.24 A Yes.25 Q And then you referred also to a program26 evaluation.27 A Yes.28 Q And I just wanted to be entirely clear. Am I29 correct that that's a term that's unique to the30 group 3 schools?31 A Program evaluation? Well, a program evaluation is32 used when a school wishes to add a grade. It33 could be a group 1 or a group 2 school that has34 never had a particular grade but wishes to add a35 grade. It's not a group 3 portion of that school36 at the moment, but it simply wishes to add a grade37 and then at that time we would conduct a program38 evaluation to determine whether the grade under39 consideration was indeed meeting the requirements

40 for group 1 or group 2 classification.41 Q But the evaluation itself, what you call a program42 evaluation, in fact, comprises part of what would43 be normally the education program review of a44 group 1 or 2 school?45 A Yes.46 Q Thank you.47 Mr. Vanderboom, you would agree that group 1

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

3/56


1 schools are required to establish evaluation2 programs that demonstrate student progress in3 human and social development and career4 development?5 A Yes.6 Q And that's a requirement in a schedule to the7 Independent Schools Act; correct?8 A Yes.9 Q One indicator that the office of independent10 schools will look at is the curriculum. That's11 one indicator as to whether a school is meeting12 those requirements?

13 A Yes.14 Q And in that connection you did discuss yesterday15 the integrated resource packages or the IRPs?16 A Yes.17 Q And schools must meet learning outcomes identified18 in those IRPs?19 A Yes.20 Q Including time requirements?21 A Yes.22 Q Are you familiar, sir, with the IRP for health and23 career education 8 and 9?24 A To some extent.25 Q To some extent. The committees themselves would26 be familiar with this?27 A Yes.28 Q When they're conducting their evaluations?29 A Yes.30 Q If we could turn, sir, please to the -- to tab 1431 of the binder. Do you recognize the document32 before you, sir?33 A Yes.34 Q Can you identify it?35 A Health and career education 8 and 9.36 Q And you would agree that this is the IRP for that37 course module?38 A Yes.39 Q And this is the current IRP?

40 A Yes.41 MR. OLTHUIS: If we could have that marked, My Lord, as42 the next exhibit.43 THE COURT: Thank you.44 THE CLERK: Exhibit 144, My Lord.4546 EXHIBIT 144: Found at Tab 14 of Exhibit W for ID.47 69 page double-sided p/c Heath and Career

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

4/56


1 Education 8 and 9 Integrated Resource Package2 2005.34 MR. OLTHUIS:5 Q And you mentioned, sir, that you have some6 knowledge of the content of this IRP?7 A Yes.8 Q Are you aware as to the matters that it generally9 covers?10 A Yes.11 Q So it's really the specifics that you are a little12 hazier on. You're familiar with the general

13 thrust of the program?14 A Right. Sure.15 Q And you're aware then that broadly it covers16 knowledge and skills that are required to assist17 students in making informed decisions about18 their -- for example, their health and sexuality?19 A Yes.20 Q And their education?21 A Yes.22 Q Their future careers?23 A Yes.24 Q And are you also familiar, sir, with the IRP for25 the course referred to as planning 10?26 A Yes.27 Q And if you could turn, sir, please, to the next28 tab in the binder. It's tab 15. Can you identify29 this document, sir?30 A Planning 10 Integrated Resource Package 2007.31 Q This is the current IRP?32 A Yes, it is.33 Q For this curriculum.34 MR. OLTHUIS: If we could have that marked, My Lord, as35 next exhibit.36 THE COURT: 145.37 THE CLERK: 145, My Lord.3839 EXHIBIT 145: Found at Tab 15 of Exhibit W for ID.

40 32 page double-sided p/c Planning 10 Integrated41 Resource Package 20074243 MR. OLTHUIS:44 Q And again your familiarity with this IRP would be45 at a general rather than specific level?46 A Yes.47 Q But you would be aware that this IRP does cover

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

5/56


1 additional elements of life skills for2 transitioning to adult life?3 A Yes.4 Q It covers, for instance, financial literacy?5 A Yes.6 Q And the exploration of a range of post secondary7 education and career choices for students?8 A Yes.9 Q So you would agree that generally these IRPs10 together, both of the ones that I've taken you to,11 are geared towards fostering the exercise of12 personal autonomy for students?

13 A Sure.14 Q Preparing students for adulthood, in other words?15 A Yeah.16 Q Part of that would be instilling in the students17 the awareness of their rights to assert their18 personal autonomy in various situations?19 A Yeah, I would assume that that could well be part20 of the planning 10 and the health career education21 package, yes.22 Q And of making informed and healthy decisions23 regarding their sexuality?24 A Yes.25 Q And you would agree as well that the skills that26 are covered in both of these IRPs are important27 ones?28 A Yes.29 Q As important as the traditional subjects that we30 would refer to as the three Rs?31 A Yes.32 Q The education in these areas, sir, would equip33 students to recognize appropriate and34 inappropriate behaviour in certain circumstances?35 A I would expect so.36 Q It would certainly be intended to do that?37 A Yes.38 Q And it would give students an awareness of -- or39 it would be intended, I should say, to give

40 students an awareness of their rights in the face41 of situations of abuse?42 A Yes.43 Q Now, with respect to abuse and particularly abuse44 of children, the office of the inspector of45 independent schools recognizes abuse as a serious46 problem, does it not?47 A Yes.

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

6/56


1 Q And, in fact, it has a guide for independent2 school personnel that deals with responding to3 allegations of child abuse?4 A Yes.5 Q And if we could turn, sir, to the next tab,6 tab 16. Do you recognize this as a copy of that7 guide?8 A Yes.9 Q And you're familiar with this?10 A Yes.11 MR. OLTHUIS: If we could have that marked, My Lord, as12 the next exhibit.

13 THE COURT: Thank you.14 THE CLERK: Exhibit 146, My Lord.15 THE COURT: Thank you.1617 EXHIBIT 146: Found at Tab 16 of Exhibit W for ID.18 1 page double-side p/c document "Supporting Our19 Students: A Guide for Independent School Personnel20 Responding to Child Abuse", undated2122 MR. OLTHUIS:23 Q One of the things, Mr. Vanderboom, that this guide24 discusses is that independent school authorities25 are required to have policies and procedures in26 place to respond to allegations or situations of27 suspected child abuse or neglect?28 A Yes.29 Q And those policies and procedures, in terms of30 their content, they must be such as to permit the31 authority to respond both effectively and32 promptly?33 A Yes.34 Q Would a review of the policies in place form part35 of the external evaluation?36 A Yes, it would.37 Q Would it form part of a monitoring inspection?38 A Yes, it would.39 Q At the bottom of the first page of this guide that

40 we have as Exhibit 146, there's a reference to the41 Child, Family and Community Service Act, and the42 guide refers to a duty to report situations in43 which a person has reason to believe that a child44 is in a situation of some danger; is that correct?45 A Yes.46 Q And what that refers to is a mandatory obligation?47 A Yes.

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

7/56


1 Q Mandatory obligation to report to a child welfare2 worker if there is essentially a reasoned basis?3 A Yes.4 Q For belief of harm or neglect to a child?5 A Yes.6 Q And I take it then that as part of the evaluation7 and monitoring that your office would want to see8 an acknowledgment of this duty built into the9 policies and procedures that the authorities are10 obligated to have?11 A Can you run me by that question again?12 Q You've indicated, sir, that this is a mandatory

13 reporting obligation?14 A Yes.15 Q And my question is whether in reviewing the16 policies and procedures of the school authority17 whether your office or the person reviewing, the18 committee reviewing, would want to see an19 acknowledgment of this mandatory duty built in or20 permeating throughout the policies?21 A We would -- we would request that we have22 confirmation that there is a policy in place and23 that that policy meets the requirements of the24 document in question here.25 Q Question including the mandatory reporting?26 A All parts of it.27 Q All parts of?28 A We wouldn't ask specifically on each part do you29 acknowledge this part, this part and this part.30 We would ask in general do you have a policy31 regarding the reporting of child abuse and is it32 consistent with the expectations of the -- of the33 document in question here.34 Q Just to be clear though you would ask these35 questions, but would you actually review the36 policies as well?37 A The committee may -- may choose to review them. I38 don't know that in every case it might do that.39 Q So it may be as simple as a question?

40 A It may be as simple as a question. I can't speak41 to every case in question.42 Q And if it is a question obviously then, I suppose43 it goes without saying, but you would rely in part44 on the answer that was given?45 A Yes.46 Q Thank you. Sir, in addition to having the47 curriculum and policies in place that we've talked

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

8/56


1 about, the office of the inspector of independent2 schools also looks in its evaluations at delivery3 or implementation of those matters as well?4 A Yes.5 Q And I think you mentioned yesterday that you6 looked at these aspects, the delivery and7 implementation --8 A Yes.9 Q -- as part of the educational program review?10 A Yes.11 Q Regarding the child abuse policy that we've just12 looked at or that aspect of the review, what role

13 would a principal play in the implementation of14 such a policy?15 A Well, I think the principal -- it seems to me the16 principal would have a responsibility to ensure17 that there was a policy and to ensure that the18 staff are aware of the requirements of the policy.19 Q So the implementation role of the principal would20 simply be making sure staff is aware?21 A Yes.22 Q Of the existence of the policy and the substance23 of the policy?24 A Yes.25 Q What role then, sir, would teachers play in26 implementation of the policy?27 A I think teachers would also need to be aware of28 the policy and also its requirements.29 Q Thank you. I wanted to turn then in a little more30 detail to the Bountiful Elementary-Secondary31 School, BESS I'll refer to it in short, and the32 Mormon Hills school, and you provided some33 evidence about these schools yesterday?34 A Yes.35 Q And in preparing your evidence you did review the36 evaluations and inspections that had been37 performed?38 A Yes.39 Q With respect to those two schools?

40 A Yes.41 Q And you familiarized yourself with those?42 A Yes.43 Q As you mentioned in your affidavit and a couple of44 times yesterday BESS has had a number of45 evaluations and inspections since 1993?46 A Yes.47 Q And your evidence is that the frequency of those

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

9/56


1 has been far greater than would normally be the2 course -- the case, pardon me -- for another given3 school?4 A Yes.5 Q And I believe you provided evidence yesterday that6 evaluations and inspections that your office7 carries out are typically one to two days in8 length?9 A Yes.10 Q And you agree there are practical limitations as11 to what committee members can see during that12 time?

13 A Yes.14 Q The picture they can obtain of the school?15 A Yes.16 Q You agreed with Ms. Trask yesterday that to some17 extent because of those practical limitations18 committees will rely on the evaluation catalogue19 that's filled out by the school?20 A Yes.21 Q If I could take you then, sir, to tab 3. Do you22 recognize this document, sir?23 A Yes, I do.24 Q And can you please identify it for His Lordship?25 A Program evaluation for Grades 11 and 12 for26 Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School27 November 7/8, 2007.28 Q And this relates to an evaluation that you played29 a personal role in; correct?30 A Yes.31 MR. OLTHUIS: If we could have that marked, My Lord, as32 the next exhibit.33 THE COURT: Yes. Is it an exhibit to your affidavit?34 MS. GREATHEAD: Yes, My Lord. It is.35 MR. OLTHUIS: Oh, pardon me, then. We won't have to36 mark that then, My Lord.37 THE COURT: Thank you.38 MR. OLTHUIS:39 Q The evaluation in question, sir, was in connection

40 with the application of the school to have grades41 11 and 12 re-classified; am I correct?42 A Yes.43 Q And it was a two-day evaluation?44 A Yes.45 Q You indicate that you visited classes, talked to46 teachers?47 A Yes.

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

10/56


1 Q And am I correct that what is set out on page 1 is2 really the sum total of what was done in the3 course of the evaluation?4 A Yeah, I believe that to be true.5 Q At page 2, sir, under heading 5. Heading five6 reads "Educational Program." I just wanted to7 confirm with you, that refers both to curriculum8 and instruction, does it?9 A Yes, it would.10 Q And can one use instruction and delivery or11 implementation essentially as synonyms?12 A Delivery -- delivery and instruction, yeah. That

13 would be -- certainly similar. There may be14 nuances of difference but sure.15 Q One of the things that's identified in this16 report, sir, is that planning 10, one of the IRPs17 that we took a look at, was scheduled for 35 hours18 of instruction over the year?19 A Yes.20 Q You see that in page 2?21 A Yes.22 Q And you would agree with me that that's far short23 of what required?24 A Yes.25 Q Under the Ministry's guidelines?26 A Far short of what is required for completing27 planning 10 for the purposes of graduation28 requirements, yes.29 Q And during this report did you actually see30 planning 10 courses being taught?31 A I don't recall whether I was in every classroom32 and for how long but quite possibly I was in33 planning 10. I can't say for certain that I was.34 The fact that there was not enough hours of35 instruction may have diverted me to other matters36 of importance with respect to the visit.37 Q The report doesn't mention any specific38 observations from being in a Planning 10 course?39 A No, I don't believe it does.

40 Q It simply mentions that the -- it mentions that41 classes were visited generally?42 A M'mm-hmm.43 Q But regarding Planning 10 it simply says that 3544 hours of instruction were scheduled?45 A Yes.46 Q If I can take you then, sir, to tab 4. Could you47 please identify this document, sir?

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

11/56


1 A External evaluation report on Bountiful Secondary2 in November 12th to 14th in 2008.3 Q Now, sir, you're familiar with this document as4 well?5 A I am, yes.6 Q And of the evaluation it describes?7 A Yes.8 Q If we can turn to page 5, sir. We have a heading9 "Educational Program," heading 6?10 A Yes.11 Q And again, it refers to curriculum and12 instruction?

13 A Yes.14 Q So this would be looking as well at the delivery15 essentially of the curriculum to the students?16 A Yes.17 Q Not simply just its existence on paper?18 A Right.19 Q If we can then flip -- I'll skip over the20 elementary grades. If we can turn to page 8, sir.21 Roman numeral III. Late intermediate program for22 Grades 8 and 9?23 A Yes.24 Q And then if we can flip over two further pages,25 still under that subheading we have reference to26 health and career education?27 A Yes.28 Q And this would relate to the IRP that we've29 discussed earlier and had marked as an exhibit;30 correct?31 A Yes.32 Q What is indicated here is that the course Health33 and Career Education 8 and 9 are offered in34 alternate years?35 A Yes.36 Q And can you assist me, please, with understanding37 what that would mean?38 A This would mean that Grade 8 and 9 is likely a39 combined class and one year the Grade 8 curriculum

40 would be offered and the following year the41 Grade 9 curriculum would be offered.42 Q All right. And then if we can turn over to43 page 11. We're now under the subheading the Roman44 numeral IV for the senior years Grades 10 to 12.45 Towards the bottom of page 11 we see Planning 1046 and again we see here reference to the course47 being offered over a two-year period?

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

12/56


1 A Yes.2 Q With half of the required instruction taught last3 school year?4 A Yes.5 Q And half taught this year?6 A Yes.7 Q And so that's consistent with your understanding8 of the Health and Career IRP?9 A Yes.10 Q How that's taught?11 A Yes.12 MR. OLTHUIS: If we could get this marked, My Lord, as

13 the next exhibit. I do not believe it is appended14 to the affidavit.15 THE CLERK: Exhibit 147.16 THE COURT: Thank you.1718 EXHIBIT 147: Found at Tab 4 of Exhibit W for ID.19 8 page double-sided p/c "External Evaluation20 Report on Bountiful Elementary Secondary School...21 November 12 - 14, 2008"2223 MR. OLTHUIS:24 Q If we could then turn, sir, over to tab 6. Do you25 recognize this document?26 A Yes. External evaluation report on Bountiful27 Elementary-Secondary School, October 13th, 14th,28 2010.29 Q And this would have related to a period during30 which you were the inspector?31 A Yes.32 Q So you would in that case, I suppose, have33 appointed the members of the committee?34 A Yes.35 MR. OLTHUIS: If we could get this marked as the next36 exhibit, My Lord.37 THE CLERK: Exhibit 148, My Lord.38 THE COURT: Thank you.39

40 EXHIBIT 148: Found at Tab 6 of Exhibit W for ID.41 8 page double-sided p/c "External Evaluation42 Report on Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School...43 October 13 - 14, 2010"4445 MR. OLTHUIS:46 Q If we could turn, Mr. Vanderboom, to page 13 of47 this document. We see reference towards the

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

13/56


1 bottom of that page again to health and career2 education?3 A Yes.4 Q And you can confirm that this would relate to the5 IRP that we've looked at?6 A Yes.7 Q And again we see reference to the course being8 offered on alternate years. We also see reference9 to the fact that the committee did not observe the10 class?11 A Yes.12 Q And you would agree that that's your

13 understanding?14 A Yes.15 Q In other words, what was reviewed would have been16 the written curriculum?17 A Yes.18 Q But not its implementation?19 A There may have been discussion with the teachers.20 I don't know. I can't tell from the report21 whether that would have been the case or not.22 Q But in any event the actually classes themselves23 were not observed?24 A Right.25 Q And if we can turn over to the next page, sir. We26 see reference to Grade 10 and roughly half or27 two-thirds of the way down the page there's a28 paragraph that is bolded, but right below that we29 see "Planning 10 is taught in units over two30 years"?31 A Yes.32 Q So that by the end of the two-year cycle all33 students have met the course requirements?34 A Yes.35 Q There's no indication those classes were observed36 either. Do you have any personal knowledge as to37 whether they were?38 A No, I don't.39 Q So it's safe to say that on the documents that

40 we've reviewed that in spite of the increased41 evaluations of Bountiful Elementary there's no42 evidence that the actual courses in question with43 reference to the IRPs I've taken you to, that44 those were of observed in their taught45 application?46 A Based on what you have indicated here and what is47 reported there is no evidence of that.

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

14/56


1 Q And you have no knowledge as to whether that was2 the case?3 A I have no knowledge whether that is or is not the4 case.5 Q Mr. Vanderboom, you agreed with Ms. Trask that the6 committees obviously can't be present to monitor7 24/7?8 A Yes.9 Q What more robust steps could be taken in order to10 ensure and confirm that the curricula that exist11 on paper are actually being taught to the12 children?

13 A Well, there's probably a number of things that14 could be done. One thing that could be done is15 you could go more frequently or you could stay16 longer.17 Q And is there a reason why those things are not18 done presently?19 A I think it was believed -- generally being20 believed that the inspection process is thorough,21 that it reviews the matters that are identified as22 required and that through conversation and -- with23 staff and review of the planning, short and24 long-range planning, that there is sufficient25 indications of meeting the requirements of the26 curriculum.27 Q But again that would appear to be based primarily28 on review of paper and discussions with teachers29 and principals?30 A Well, if you're going to be in a classroom -- if31 you're going to be in a school two days, as you32 indicated yourself, you can't see everything33 unless you were there every day for the entire34 year. What we do when we come in and do an35 external evaluation is look at a point in time and36 determine whether what we see at a point in time37 is consistent with the planning that is undertaken38 at that point in time. And we determine whether39 there's reason to believe that anything is not

40 being done in a way that is indicated by the41 planning that's -- that the teachers in the school42 is undertaking. In the event that it appears that43 there some other matters that are not being44 addressed then the team might come back or stay45 longer. In the cases in which you have identified46 it appeared to the committee that what was being47 done was adequate and was meeting the learning

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

15/56


1 outcomes of the required curriculum.2 Q So in other words, if I can summarize this, and3 please let me know if I'm summarizing this fairly,4 it would be in situations where the paper5 curriculum or the answers provided by the teachers6 gave the committee members some cause for concern.7 It would be in those situations where they might8 think to spend extra time in a classroom?9 A Or looking at the paper would be one thing, or10 having visited classrooms if it was felt that11 there was more that needed to be identified then12 perhaps the team would stay longer.

13 Q But those -- my point is that those things would14 be steps taken in the event that the initial15 review caused some concern with the committee16 members? It wouldn't be done as a matter of17 course?18 A No, no, it wouldn't be done as a matter of course.19 It would be undertaken if it was felt that more20 attention was needed in one or the other areas.21 MR. OLTHUIS: Thank you, sir. Those are my questions.22 THE COURT: Thank you. That concludes cross, does it?23 Thank you.24 MR. SIREN: Yes.25 THE COURT: Yes. Thanks, Mr. Siren.26 MS. GREATHEAD: I have no redirect, My Lord.27 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Vanderboom.2829 (WITNESS EXCUSED)3031 MR. JONES: My Lord, our next witness will be32 Mr. Klette. Before we get to Mr. Klette, though,33 because his affidavit is one thing that needs to34 be entered, we thought we would take the35 opportunity to tidy up a few matters of evidence.36 THE COURT: Yes, thank you.37 MR. JONES: So we would submit, and Madam Clerk has a38 copy of the affidavit number 2 of Bruce Klette,39 and we ask that that be admitted.

40 THE COURT: Thank you.41 THE CLERK: That's Exhibit 149 My Lord.4243 EXHIBIT 149: 1 sealed brown envelope with white44 label on both sides with black felt and pencil45 notations; said to contain an original Affidavit46 #2 of Bruce Klette sworn Jan 18, 2011.47 [Sealed pursuant to Order of Chief Justice Bauman

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

16/56

16Discussion

1 dated Jan 28, 2011]23 MR. JONES: There are also two supplementary Brandeis4 brief affidavits, that is of Ms. Isbister number 45 and my friends have one now that's been filed from6 Ms. Luca.7 THE COURT: Yes.8 MR. JONES: Number 2, I believe. Yes, number 2 of9 Ms. Luca. Sorry, first is Isbister number 4.10 THE CLERK: Exhibit 150, My Lord.11 THE COURT: Thank you.12

13 EXHIBIT 150: 1 cerlox brief "Affidavit #4 of14 Kaley Isbister" filed Feb 04 2011; 2 page15 affidavit; Tabs A - C; original1617 MR. JONES: And Ms. Luca number 2.18 THE CLERK: Exhibit 151, My Lord.19 THE COURT: Thank you.2021 EXHIBIT 151: 1 clear covered cerlox brief22 containing "Affidavit #2 of Brianna Luca" filed23 Feb 9 2011; 2 page affidavit; Tabs A - C; original2425 MR. JONES: There's one outstanding question that I26 think my friends would prefer still to discuss27 after lunch.28 MR. DICKSON: That's correct.29 MR. JONES: And that is the status, if I can put it30 that way, of the legislative history brief and the31 two volumes appended to it.32 THE COURT: Right.33 MR. JONES: And finally, I was discussing with Madam34 Clerk the still forthcoming affidavit of Ms. Gabe35 which will be the translated version of the Quebec36 report. There is no chance that that's going to37 be filed by today. My proposal for dealing with38 that would be to reserve an exhibit number for it.39 We'll distribute the reserved number along with

40 the affidavit hopefully this week. People can41 refer to it, and I was hoping then perhaps I might42 at some point just get five minutes of the court's43 time and come in and have it entered between now44 and the argument stage.45 THE COURT: So we'll reserve 152 for it?46 THE CLERK: We'll reserve 152, My Lord.47 MR. JONES: Thank you, My Lord. And then subject to

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

17/56

17Discussion

1 the legislative history brief -- I'm sorry, there2 is another item, a supplementary Brandeis brief of3 my friend. He can speak to that.4 MR. ILNYCKYJ: Paul Ilnyckyj appearing for the5 Christian Legal Fellowship.6 THE COURT: Thank you.7 MR. ILNYCKYJ: The court clerk brought it to our8 attention yesterday afternoon that there had been9 material submitted but it has not been entered as10 an exhibit. It was originally material that was11 circulated by Ms. Wilke in November 24th and the12 application appears to have been made by

13 Mr. Chipeur but it hadn't been entered as an14 exhibit. I'm going to ask you to enter it. And15 there are two binders and perhaps I can assure16 with the court clerk that we're marking the right17 ones.18 THE CLERK: My Lord, what is -- Exhibit F is19 affidavits?20 THE COURT: Yes.21 THE CLERK: The book and two binders.22 THE COURT: Okay. So that's Exhibit F for23 identification will be -- will we reserve a24 number?25 THE CLERK: Yes, Exhibit 46, My Lord.2627 EXHIBIT 46: 1 bundle of documents held with28 elastic band containing a 4-page original29 Affidavit of Audry Lim filed Nov 24 2010.30 1 original book titled "The Female Circumcision31 Controversy", enclosed in clear plastic exhibit32 bag.33 1 untitled black binder, first page is a p/c of34 "Harem The World Behind the Veil.35 1 untitled black binder, first page is a p/c of36 "William and Mary Journal of Women and the Law"3738 MR. ILNYCKYJ: Thank you.39 THE COURT: Thank you.

40 MR. JONES: I'm sorry, My Lord, I've forgotten that my41 friends too I believe have one outstanding42 affidavit.43 MS. HERBST: Thank you. And Madam Registrar very44 kindly reminded us that we have one exhibit that45 was marked for identification but not converted46 into a proper exhibit, if I can put it that way,47 and it's the affidavit of Marion Watson which I

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

18/56

18Bruce Klette (for AGBC)In chief by Ms. Bevan

1 omitted to ask for the exhibit number. It was an2 affidavit that was filed with -- in the same3 category as Mary Bachelor and Anne Wild.4 THE CLERK: That was Exhibit K, My Lord.5 THE COURT: Okay. And did we reserve something?6 THE CLERK: Yes, it becomes Exhibit 68, My Lord.7 THE COURT: Thank you very much.89 EXHIBIT 68: 20 page original "Affidavit #1 of10 Marianne T. Watson" filed Oct 20 2010.1112 MS. HERBST: If I may note, My Lord, it had been

13 originally marked for identification like14 Ms. Bachelor's affidavit and Ms. Wild's because15 the Attorney General of British Columbia was16 concerned about the characterization of her as an17 expert proper. I understand the Attorney General18 of British Columbia doesn't object to the19 admission of any portion of that affidavit20 including opinion evidence, but again with the21 reservation that she not be characterized as an22 expert per se, and that's acceptable to us as23 well.24 THE COURT: Thank you.25 MS. HERBST: Thank you.26 THE COURT: So, Mr. Jones.27 MR. JONES: We'll call Mr. Bruce Klette to the stand.2829 BRUCE KLETTE, a witness30 called by the AGBC,31 affirmed.3233 THE CLERK: Please state your full name and spell your34 last name for the record.35 THE WITNESS: Bruce Victor Klette. Last name is36 K-l-e-t-t-e.37 THE COURT: Please have a seat, sir.38 THE WITNESS: Thank you.39 MS. BEVAN: My Lord, it's Sarah Bevan for the Attorney

40 General of British Columbia. For the record41 that's B-e-v-a-n.42 THE COURT: Thank you.4344 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF MS. BEVAN:45 Q Mr. Klette, do you have in front of you a copy of46 your affidavit number 1 sworn January 18th, 201147 and also a copy of your affidavit number 2 sworn

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

19/56


1 January 18th, 2011?2 A I do.3 Q And those are the two affidavits that you have4 sworn in this proceeding?5 A Yes, they are.6 Q Mr. Klette, in those two affidavits you have7 provided some information on birth registration8 records that are on file with the BC Vital9 Statistics Agency. I will refer to the BC Vital10 Statistics by its acronym BCVSA for convenience.11 Can you explain generally what the BCVSA is.12 A The BCVSA is a government agency that has a number

13 of roles. It assimilates information around life14 events. Those are births, deaths, marriages,15 stillbirths, adoptions. It also manages a wills16 registry. The information that it collects gets17 used for a number of different purposes. Purposes18 of identity management, of statistics, health19 statistics, as well as research.20 Q And at paragraphs 2 and 4 in your affidavit,21 Mr. Klette, you have mentioned that the BCVSA is a22 special operating agency of the Ministry of Health23 Services. Can you explain what that means and24 what the rationale is.25 A A special operating agency was a designation put26 forward by treasury board to allow certain27 organizations where it was felt some streamlining28 could occur to use a portion of their recoveries29 and put that back into operational improvements.30 Practically speaking it means that the agency,31 while still part of the Ministry of Health, does32 operate fairly autonomously. Not to the same33 degree as a Crown corporation but somewhere34 between a Crown corporation and the Ministry of35 Health.36 Q And you mentioned a moment ago that one of the37 things that the BCVSA does is identity management.38 Can you explain what that means.39 A As a service provision the agency issues birth

40 certificates and death certificates. Now, birth41 certificates are seen as a foundation identity42 document. That is the document that an individual43 born in BC will use to prove his citizenship.44 So the agency is responsible for collecting45 information for the registration of those births.46 That information comes in from a number of47 different sources which will prove that identity.

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

20/56


1 It then holds that information in a secure manner2 and issues certificates based on those registries.3 It means that the information that we hold is4 extremely private and it creates a requirement for5 a very high level of accuracy on that information.6 Q And about how many people in total work at the7 BCVSA?8 A It fluctuates slightly but it's usually around 80.9 Q And at paragraphs 1 and 6 in your affidavit you10 have said that you are the director of information11 technology services at the BCVSA?12 A That's correct.

13 Q At paragraph 6 you mentioned four primary areas of14 responsibility. Can you explain what your job15 involves, focussing in particular on your data16 steward role and also supervision of the data17 extract developers.18 A Okay. So the areas that we're not going to focus19 on, very briefly, is just around the development20 of application systems and on medical coding and21 the assertion of quality of data coming in.22 As far as the data steward's role goes, I am23 the data steward for the Vital Statistics Agency.24 What this means is that I'm responsible for having25 all extracts, statistic or research data made26 available for responding to press requests or27 responding to minister's letters or information28 for ad hoc data. I also have a delegated29 authority for the release of that data to ensure30 that the release of the data complies with FIPA or31 with the Vital Statistics Act that has very32 specific terminology in it around data rules.33 To that end I sit on a couple of data stewards34 councils or boards, one for Statistics Canada and35 one for Population Data BC. I'm sorry, could you36 repeat the second area you would like me to focus37 on? It was the role as data steward and?38 Q Yes, the programming and the data extract.39 A Oh, the extracts. I have a staff of 15 employees.

40 Some of whom are have a computer science41 background in programming. Part of their jobs is42 to write the algorithms that extract the data from43 a relational database into the types of formats44 that are required such as those specified in this45 affidavit.46 Q And, Mr. Klette, you mentioned amount ago FIPA and47 I assume by that you mean the Freedom of

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

21/56


1 Information and Protection of Privacy Act?2 A The Protection of Privacy Act, yes.3 Q Just to be clear. And you mentioned also4 programming and algorithms. So is the computer5 system that the BCVSA has, is it set up like a6 sort of library catalogue search engine where the7 tools are readily at hand to fulfil research8 requests, or is it something that requires more9 specialist programming. How does that work?10 A Data -- excuse me, the data is held in a11 relational database which is an IT technical12 mechanism for holding data. The reason that this

13 is done is for reasons of data redundancy and for14 the ability to tie various data elements together.15 I won't go into too much detail, but suffice to16 say to answer the question that although there is17 an application system for basic searches, searches18 of the nature of what was required for this19 affidavit do require programs to be developed to20 extract and present the data in the formats21 needed.22 If we have a request that's going to be23 recurring we can write the algorithms once and24 simply run them as required. Many requests which25 are more complex would require the development of26 custom algorithms to extract and present the data.27 Q And in your role as director of information28 technology services about how many employees at29 the BCVSA out of the 80 total do you have30 reporting to you?31 A I have 15 employees reporting to me plus32 additional contractors as required.33 Q Are you the head person at the BCVSA for the sort34 of data requests that the Attorney General made in35 this case or is there somebody else above you?36 A No, I respond to all data requests whether they37 come from within public service or from outside of38 the agency, and even if they come from outside of39 the country, so they would come through me.

40 Q And you mentioned in your affidavit and just a41 moment ago in your testimony that you provide data42 to various stakeholders?43 A Yeah.44 Q How many of those are there?45 A Well, as far as separate organizations there are46 approximately 30 to 40 organizations that we47 provide data to. That does not include research

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

22/56


1 requests. We have a large number of research2 requests that come from the academic3 organizations. They are usually faulted through a4 collaboration called Population Data BC. The5 types of organizations we provide data to are6 federal ministries such as Service Canada or7 Canada Revenue Agency. Statistical groups such as8 BC Stats or Statistics Canada. Research9 organizations like Population Data BC.10 Organizations are more interested in identity such11 as ICBC, and then we provide data to similar12 organizations, the vital statistics agencies

13 across the United States and Canada.14 Q Okay.15 A That's a cross section.16 Q Okay. And you mentioned in particular Population17 Data BC. Can you explain what Population Data BC18 is?19 A Population Data BC, or I'll refer to it as Pop20 Data, is a collaboration of academic institutions21 that -- they saw the need to take data from22 multiple data sources and to link this data23 together in order to do longitudinal studies.24 Rather than each research project having to apply25 to each one of those data sources and taking years26 to get the agreement to get all of the data, they27 took it upon themselves to form this28 collaboration, put a request in for the data, take29 the data, link it together and anonymize it. They30 then created a secure research environment that31 statisticians or researchers can then go to do32 advanced medical or economic studies.33 It is a fairly large group. It currently has34 about 5 or 6 data stakeholders but it is35 increasing all of the time. The information36 sharing agreements for access to the data we have37 collaborated extensively with them. They do have38 cabinet approval for the way that they are -- and39 the methodologies that they are implementing to

40 just facilitate this research.41 Q And what is the difference between what the BCVSA42 does and Population Data BC or BC Stats or one of43 these outside stakeholders that receive data?44 What is the difference between what the two do?45 A Our focus is on the collection of the data, the46 quality and the purity of that data and the47 provision of the data. It's important to

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

23/56


1 understand that being the identify registry and2 being the foundation identity -- someone would3 approach the agency claiming to have lost or never4 had issued any identity at all and we have to be5 able to issue an identity document to that person6 based purely on their recollection of that event,7 which means that we have to have a completely8 accurate record of that event.9 We assimilate the data, we ensure certain10 levels of data quality and then we create the11 extracts and provide the data to the researchers.12 We do not get into advanced statistics. We do not

13 do studies on the data or draw any kind of14 inferences from the data.15 Q Does the BCVSA have any in-house statisticians or16 demographers?17 A We do not have any inhouse statisticians. Now,18 that said, in the same way that an accountant19 would have a knowledge of mathematics but not call20 himself a mathematician, we employ programmers,21 computer scientists, myself included, that will22 have some knowledge of statistics because of the23 nature of the data. But we don't call ourselves24 statisticians or profess to be. We are data25 analysts.26 Q Okay. At paragraph 1 in your affidavit you said27 that you became the director of technology28 services at the BCVSA in 2005 and then at29 paragraph 7 you mention that you have had a30 professional career in information technology31 spanning some years. Can I ask you to explain32 briefly what your background was before joining33 the BCVSA and before becoming the director of34 information technology services?35 A Yes, I started my career in South Africa at First36 National Bank. I worked as a programmer and37 analyst in international and corporate banking.38 From there I moved to a company called FDP, part39 of the Sun God group based out of Boston. I

40 worked as an architect developing applications for41 again, similar type of extraction and presentation42 of data. This was for pension and provident fund43 administration. Strict -- it was financial data.44 Through Sun God I worked in a number of45 countries, Australia, Ireland, England. I then46 moved to Canada and took a position with EDS,47 which is now part of Hewlett Packard, focussing on

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

24/56


1 government systems. I did some contracts for BC2 Ferries, some for Public Safety and Solicitor3 General. I joined the public service I believe it4 was in '95 where I joined the agency as an5 architect then moved into the role of director6 that I hold now.7 Q Okay. At paragraph 22 of your affidavit you8 mention the BCVSA's vital event registry. Can you9 explain what that is?10 A The vital event registry is the relational11 database that I spoke to. It is a mechanism of12 holding all of the data on vital events or related

13 to vital events, both the demographic information14 as well as the medical information for those15 events. It also has an application on top of it16 for clerical use. That would be for the provision17 of services to the public as well as for18 adjudication of data and a number of ancillary19 systems for the collection data and the provision20 of services. So that entire structure is what we21 term "the registry," with the most important piece22 being the database at the bottom.23 Q Okay. And with respect to birth registration24 records how is the information collected that25 makes up that data on births in the vital event26 registry?27 A On birth registrations the information comes from28 two sources: the one source will be the medical29 facility, the certifier of the birth. Now, I mean30 some births can be home births but the majority of31 them come from hospitals. The second source will32 be the parents of the child. Those two documents33 are linked together and collapsed into a birth34 vital event record.35 Where there are discrepancies on the36 information or where clarification is required we37 do have staff that will go back to the informing38 institutions or the parents requesting the39 clarification. We have to have the data and we

40 have to have it accurate before that record can be41 moved to a state that a birth certificate can be42 issued off it.43 We also have registered nurses that are44 responsible for the medical coding to ensure that45 the medical information on that event is accurate.46 That is what -- one of the primary uses of the47 research -- primary requirements for research in

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

25/56


1 the future.2 After that entire process is completed the3 record will be marked to a status meaning that an4 a certificate can be issued off that record.5 Something -- just to touch on this, sorry, is I6 keep coming back to quality, but for example all7 of this information is double keyed. There can't8 be any mistakes made on that information9 Q Okay. And you mentioned -- Mr. Klette, you10 mentioned two documents that are brought together

11 to form a --12 A Yes, the medical document is the notice of birth.13 The document coming from the parents is the14 registration document.15 Q And I believe those are attached to your affidavit16 as exhibits?17 A Correct. What is attached to the affidavit is a18 certified copy of the registration document.19 Q Right. Your affidavit number 11 actually,20 Exhibit A is the --21 A I see. Okay. Sorry. My mistake.22 Q The blank copies.23 A Yes.24 Q Those are the two documents at Exhibit A and25 Exhibit B; is that correct?26 A Yes, the notice of live birth and the registration27 document, correct.28 Q Thank you. What is the scope of the birth records29 that the BCVSA has both geographically and across30 time?31 A Geographically it's all births that occur within32 the province of BC. Across time? The33 documents -- the documents do backdate -- date34 back to 1872 although documents -- those documents35 are not necessarily all captured in an electronic36 registry. The electronic registry goes back to37 1910. Not all of the information back in the

38 earlier years is complete because we very seldom39 get a person requesting a birth certificate where40 they were born in 1910. It is only the more41 recent information that is complete. The way that42 we deal with that is if somebody did have to come43 in and request a birth certificate for data that44 is not complete we will then go back to the45 original -- the image of the original records and46 we will complete that record in full before that47 certificate is issued. But it will be done on an

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

26/56


1 as required basis.2 Q You mentioned previously the private nature of the3 birth records. Can you comment on the privacy4 concerns that the BCVSA has about the birth5 records that it keeps.6 A Yes, the privacy concerns are twofold. The one is7 simply meeting FIPA, but the other one is because8 of the use of this data for the issuance of a9 foundation identity document we do not want10 anybody to get sufficient information about that11 event to apply for a certificate fraudulently. We12 have to keep that data private. This will -- this

13 extends even to keeping each event separate from14 another and not linking say a mother on one birth15 to a mother on another birth. They are kept as16 separate individual parties on each of those17 events.18 This touches on something that I alluded to19 earlier, Population Data BC. It is very obvious20 that for research purposes, somebody doing medical21 research, they would require that they can see an22 entire family structure so that is why they have23 to undertake that work at that time. And it is24 similar to the work that I had to undertake to for25 some of the information of this affidavit.26 Q Would the BCVSA ever let a demographer or27 statistician from outside the agency come in and28 have wholesale access to the vital event registry29 to do research?30 A No, we have got very strict legislative31 requirements around who can have access to that32 data and it would not allow an outside party that33 access.34 Q Turning then to the research that you did for the35 AGBC in this case, can I ask you to explain in36 general terms how you used the vital event37 registry to do research on births in the Bountiful38 community.39 A Are you referring to the method that I used to

40 come up with -- I'm not --41 Q Yes. Yes, what's called cohort 3 in the42 affidavit?43 A All right. So what I did to come up with44 cohort 3, my -- the original question that I was45 asked was for information around polygamous46 communities. So I went -- I looked for all47 instances where it was apparent that there was

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

27/56


1 practising polygamy. I identified the family2 names of the father in those instances and I came3 up with a grouping of a certain number of fathers.4 That, however, had outliers in it. There were5 certain surnames that were very common so I had to6 take that to an additional level of verification.7 We then compared that information to8 information that -- to any births that were9 registered at the Bountiful midwifery clinic for10 the purposes of validation.11 We then took the mothers involved in those12 events and started looking at their place of usual

13 residence. We identified certain geographical14 areas that were common to the Bountiful community.15 We then cross referenced against educational16 records, simply verifying that we hadn't left out17 or needed to include certain fathers' names.18 By the time we had finished all of those steps19 we had come down to a certain number of records as20 well as a certain number of -- that were split21 into regular events and teen pregnancies. We did22 a manual adjudication on -- wherever we saw23 discrepancies as well as the teen pregnancies.24 The reason for that manual adjudication was to try25 and ensure that there was no chance of having a26 false positive in there.27 We -- at the end of it we had a group of 1528 surnames we had all of the events from there. I29 think I've covered everything. I'm just rambling30 on now.31 Q It is covered in some detail in your affidavit?32 A Yeah.33 Q Can I ask you to clarify though, in terms of the34 final search parameters and final cohort were you35 only looking at births in polygamous families or36 also in monogamous families?37 A Well, polygamous activity is where we started, but38 we were identifying family names and there were39 many individuals within those family names that

40 were part of the Bountiful community that were not41 involved in polygamy. So while my entire42 affidavit could perhaps under-report in all43 instances because we were so cautious, it was not44 focussed on polygamous only. It did however start45 off with family names of individuals that were46 involved in polygamous activity.47 Q Okay. And when you say involved in polygamous

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

28/56


1 activity, do you mean presumably on the basis that2 it's one father having children with multiple3 women?4 A Multiple wives, correct.5 Q Which could conceivably also be serial6 monogamists?7 A Well, we tried to exclude serial monogamists by8 looking at the timeframes of the births, ensuring9 that they did overlap. Also, that is one of the10 reasons that we went to the geographic location of11 the mother because that narrowed it down12 considerably in terms of the number of events that

13 we were looking at. I'm fairly confident that we14 eradicated all instances of serial monogamists in15 the data before we put the figures together.16 Q And can you say anything generally about your17 confidence level or what you see as the margin of18 error in this research project? I assume19 obviously you have a margin of error, but...20 A The project does have a margin of error. My21 confidence level is that it would be very small22 and that is based on the number of iterations that23 we went through the data before -- the way that we24 do this is we draw up the base data set, which is25 referred to in the affidavit as a cohort, and then26 we draw the figures based on that cohort. Before27 drawing the figures we went through so many28 iterations on that cohort eradicating any outliers29 or false positives. This is why I said I'm far30 more confident that we have been overly cautious31 on our figures than I am that anything would be32 inflated.33 Q Okay. And can I ask you to turn to the table on34 page 13 in your affidavit number 1. It's entitled35 "Cohort 1 British Columbia births"?36 A Yeah.37 Q Can you explain generally what information this38 table conveys?39 A Okay. So the table is very basically raw counts

40 or percentages. Column 1 is the year in which41 the -- in which the event was registered.42 Column 2 is the number of births that occurred43 within that year. Column 3 is the number of teen44 births that occurred within the year. Column 4 is45 a very simple percentage of teen births based on46 column 2 and 3. Column 5 is the number of mothers47 that were resident outside of Canada. Column 6 is

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

29/56


1 the percentage of the mothers resident outside of2 Canada. Column 7 is the number of mothers born3 outside of Canada. Again, 8 is percentage of that4 column. Column 9 is the average age difference5 between parents. Column 10 is the average age6 difference between parents where that birth was a7 teen birth.8 Q Okay. What do you the asterisks mean?9 A What the asterisks mean is that we had an exercise10 to go back and capture certain data after we moved11 to the current version of the vital statistics12 registry. The father's age was not an important

13 field either for identity purposes and it was not14 captured into the electronic registry so I did not15 have it readily available to calculate those two16 columns prior to 1993. I could have gone back and17 looked at all of the original records and had that18 captured but we did not have the time for that19 undertaking, and I considered '94 onwards to be20 sufficient information for the affidavit.21 Q And what is cohort 1 BC births?22 A Cohort 1 is all births that occurred within the23 province of British Columbia.24 Q Okay. May I ask you to turn over the page to the25 table on page 14, which is cohort 2. I won't ask26 you to go through each of the columns again27 because they're the same as the previous table,28 but can you explain what this cohort is.29 A Cohort 2 is births that occurred where the mother30 indicated that she was resident within Cranbrook31 or Creston local health areas. There is a -- a32 very quick distinction we don't look at where the33 birth occurred because major birthing hospitals34 are centered in places that would skew numbers.35 We look at where the mother was resident, and that36 is the common way of looking at the geographical37 view of birth information.38 Q And what is a local health area?39 A I don't know what the official definition is.

40 It's simply a health area that is -- I know that41 it is defined in legislation to have a health42 officer to be the responsibility of a particular43 health authority.44 Q But is it a geographical area?45 A A geographical area, yes.46 Q A search term you can use?47 A Yeah, it's a geographical area.

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

30/56


1 Q Okay.2 A We used the Creston and Cranbrook areas because3 those were the two areas that the surrounded the4 Bountiful community and it gave us a -- the5 picture with an accurate comparison. All of the6 figures that are included in the Bountiful cohort7 will be in these figures as well.8 THE COURT: Let's take the break at that point. Thank9 you.10 THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned for the11 morning recess.12

13 (WITNESS STOOD DOWN)14 (MORNING RECESS)1516 THE CLERK: Order in court.17 THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Bevan.18 MS. BEVAN: Thank you, My Lord. I have just a couple19 more questions.2021 EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MS. BEVAN: (Continuing)22 Q Where we left off, Mr. Klette, we were on page 1523 of the table of Bountiful births. I won't ask you24 to explain that because you have already gone25 through your methodology in that regard and26 explained the format of the table anyways.27 So what I wanted to ask you was, at28 paragraph 43 in your affidavit you've given a29 percentage there of the teen births as a30 percentage of total births, and at paragraph 4731 you have given a related percentage of mothers who32 gave birth as teens. And I wanted to ask you, is33 that the same as a teen pregnancy rate?34 A No, it's not. These are simple percentages of the35 population. A teen pregnancy rate would require a36 denominator to calculate an understanding of the37 number of teens within the particular cohort. We38 did not have a denominator for cohort 3 for the39 Bountiful cohort.

40 Q And finally, at paragraphs 44 through 57 in your41 affidavit number 1 you've given some numbers on42 distinct mothers and fathers in the Bountiful43 cohort. Can you explain briefly what was involved44 in generating those numbers from the birth45 registration data as distinct from what came prior46 in your affidavit?47 A Yeah. So as I mentioned the vital event registry

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

31/56

31Bruce Klette (for AGBC)Cross-exam by Mr. Dickson

1 stores all of the parties to an event separately.2 This is for privacy reasons. If a member of the3 clerical staff went and looked at a particular4 birth they would only see information that is5 relevant to that birth. They would not see a6 mother's history across her entire life linked7 together. However, for the information on this8 affidavit that was required in that section, we9 had to make those links. So we had to take10 mothers, fathers on an event, link them across,11 see how many children they'd had across an entire12 span that the affidavit talks to. In doing that

13 linkage you do get a lot of discrepancies in the14 information, and it's not that the information is15 incorrect. It's just people do change names that16 they use. This sometimes might -- if you ask17 somebody a question twice about where they're born18 they may say they're born in a suburb of a city on19 one occasion but name the city on the other20 occasion. These are all things that have to be21 resolved to make those linkages accurate. It's22 very time consuming and it's a large part of the23 type of work that Pop Data do for the academic24 community. We took it on for this project to come25 up with figures around distinct family units and26 particularly mothers and fathers.27 MS. BEVAN: Okay. Thank you, those are my questions.28 THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Dickson.29 MR. DICKSON: I understand that there's no cross from30 this side of the floor.31 MR. OLTHUIS: That's correct, My Lord.32 THE COURT: Thank you.33 MR. DICKSON: So I will proceed.3435 CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DICKSON:36 Q Mr. Klette, my name is Tim Dickson I'm counsel for37 the amicus curiae in this proceeding. I believe38 that you have testified already that you are not a39 demographer?

40 A That's correct.41 Q When you were asked by Ms. Bevan to carry out this42 research am I correct in thinking that you had no43 special knowledge of fundamentalist Mormonism?44 A That's correct.45 Q Or Bountiful?46 A Beyond knowing of it, no, I had no specialist47 knowledge.

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

32/56


1 Q Or Mormonism more generally?2 A No.3 Q Or polygamy more generally?4 A Again, I know what polygamy is, familiar with it5 in a number of different cultures but I have no6 specialist knowledge, no.7 Q In the research that you present in your affidavit8 number 1 you compare various statistics relating9 to three cohorts, cohort 1 being all BC births?10 A Yeah.11 Q Cohort 2 being all births in the Creston and12 Cranbrook local health areas?

13 A Yes.14 Q And cohort 3 consists of those births that you15 identify with Bountiful; is that correct?16 A Yes.17 Q Did anyone suggest to you to use these three18 cohorts?19 A No.20 Q I wanted to ask you a few questions about your21 construction of cohort 3. In -- at paragraph 3122 of your first affidavit in the last sentence you23 note that you included fathers' surnames and24 respective births where the place of birth was25 specifically indicated as the Bountiful midwifery26 clinic. Did anyone suggest to you to examine27 births at the Bountiful midwifery clinic?28 A I believe -- to the best of my recollection I29 believe that that institution was mentioned to me.30 Q Do you remember who mentioned it to you?31 A I believe that it was mentioned by Ms. Bevan.32 Q And at paragraph 32 you note that you examined a33 spreadsheet of students at the Bountiful34 Elementary-Secondary School and the Mormon Hills35 school for certain years?36 A Yes.37 Q And you note that the spreadsheet was provided to38 you by Ms. Bevan?39 A M'mm-hmm.

40 Q And did she suggest to you that it would be useful41 to you in this research?42 A She didn't suggest it would be useful. By being43 given it we assumed that.44 Q Did you take any steps to verify the accuracy of45 that spreadsheet?46 A No, we actually -- we placed very little weight on47 the information on the spreadsheet, merely using

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

33/56


1 it as a verification. I was not familiar with the2 data and if I'm not familiar with the accuracy of3 the data I tend not to rely too heavily on it.4 Q I want to turn to asking you a little bit about5 the comparisons that you draw between the three6 cohorts?7 A M'mm-hmm.8 Q You'll agree with me that cohorts 1 and 2 are9 geographically defined?10 A Correct.11 Q Cohort 1 relates to the geographic area of BC?12 A Yes.

13 Q And cohort 2 relates to two geographic areas?14 A Yes.15 Q In the local health areas of Creston and16 Cranbrook?17 A M'mm-hmm.18 Q Cohort 3 on the other hand relates to a community;19 would you agree?20 A That's correct.21 Q And that's what you call the community of22 Bountiful?23 A Yes.24 Q Well, I think of Bountiful as having two25 communities since 2002. Do you know anything26 about that?27 A No, I'm not familiar -- well, I have heard and I28 have made certain assumptions from what I have29 heard, but I am not familiar with the -- with the30 details around that.31 Q You're not -- you don't have special knowledge of32 Bountiful as you said earlier?33 A No.34 Q You have -- sorry. Would you agree, Mr. Klette,35 with me that a defining feature of the Bountiful36 communities is some sort of shared culture?37 A In the way that this cohort is being assembled?38 Yes.39 Q For instance you'll agree with me the Bountiful

40 communities are fundamentalist Mormon communities?41 A I'm not aware if there are individuals that are42 not of that faith living in that community.43 Q You didn't study --44 A But for cohort 3 I would assume that they are,45 yes.46 Q Their religious beliefs is not a matter that you47 took into consideration in constructing cohort 3?

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

34/56


1 A No, I was purely looking at the data and the2 relationships between the individuals on the birth3 records, when those occurred and using that to4 identify polygamous behaviour, taking those names5 and then including all births, polygamous and6 monogamous, where the wives were in -- indicated7 they lived in a particular area or rather the mums8 indicated they lived in a particular area, and the9 father's family names fell within that grouping.10 So it would include polygamous and monogamous11 relationships with a relationship where the12 fathers have particular names and the mothers live

13 within particular geographical regions.14 Q Mr. Klette, would you agree with me that cultural15 factors can affect rates of teen pregnancy?16 A That's not really my area of expertise.17 Q You're not a demographer?18 A No.19 Q And you don't -- you don't look at cultural causes20 of the various --21 A No.22 Q -- vital events?23 A I don't tend to interpret the data.24 Q Fair enough. Now, I'm not going to ask you as an25 expert in that, you're not. But just as a26 layperson, would you expect that cultural factors27 could affect rates of teen pregnancy?28 A Yes.29 Q And do you have any awareness of the rates of teen30 pregnancy among Aboriginal persons in Canada?31 A Again, I have an awareness. I'm not an expert in32 that area. It's not something that I could talk33 to. You know, it's a very wide area. When you34 say Aboriginal, a person may be an Aboriginal35 living in a setting that is culturally very36 similar to their origins. They may be an37 Aboriginal living in the middle of a large city38 and their particular culture in no way. So I39 would assume that would affect that. Yeah, I

40 don't think I could categorically state that I'm41 familiar with that type of information.42 Q You would assume from what I'm hearing that the43 kind of urban or rural environment that a person44 is living in might affect rates of teen pregnancy?45 A It may.46 Q Back on Aboriginal persons. I've seen a 200847 Statistics Canada report that states that among

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

35/56


1 women who reported an Aboriginal background2 24 percent were teenage mothers compared to3 10 percent of other mothers. Would you have any4 reason to doubt that?5 A To doubt the figures? No.6 Q I want to -- I want to hand up a document we7 obtained from the internet from vital statistics.8 I will hand up two copies.9 THE COURT: Thank you.10 MR. DICKSON:11 Q As you can see, Mr. Klette, from the cover page12 here this is a "Regional Analysis of Health

13 Statistics for Status Indians in British14 Columbia" --15 A M'mm-hmm.16 Q -- "From 1992 to 2002," and you can see in the17 bottom right corner that it's the BC Vital18 Statistics Agency.19 A Yeah.20 Q Would you agree with that?21 A I would.22 Q And you can see the publication information three23 pages in?24 A Yeah.25 Q If you just turn to -- I have included the preface26 and the table of contents, but it's a long27 document and so I have just after that in28 substance included page 17. And there you can see29 figure 16 in the top right corner, Mr. Klette, on30 page 17. The page number is in the bottom right31 corner?32 A Okay. Yeah.33 Q It's two pages from the back. And in figure 1634 you can -- you can -- figure 16 sets out live35 birth rate for teenage mothers by the health36 service delivery area for status Indians, and37 that's in the grey, and for other residents, and38 that's in the black?39 A M'mm-hmm.

40 Q Do you agree?41 A Yes.42 Q And obviously what this figure shows is -- are43 much higher rates of teen pregnancy for status44 Indians as opposed to other residents; would you45 agree with that?46 A Correct. That's what they show.47 Q And I think there's a provincial total sort of

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

36/56


1 midway on the left on these headings and it seems2 to indicate 184.5 teen pregnancies per 1,000 live3 births?4 A M'mm-hmm.5 Q For status Indians?6 A M'mm-hmm.7 Q Would you agree? And -- versus 38.8 teen births8 per 1,000 live births for other residents; is that9 correct?10 A Yeah.11 Q And perhaps an easier way of reading this for me12 is that that means something like 18.45 percent of

13 live births are teen births for status Indians and14 3.88 percent for other residents?15 A M'mm-hmm.16 Q That is correct? That is correct, Mr. Klette?17 A Assuming the math is correct, yeah.18 MR. DICKSON: Can I have this marked as the next19 exhibit.20 MR. JONES: Well, perhaps I can speak to that, My Lord.21 Mr. Klette has indicated that he doesn't recognize22 the document. He's premised his answers on the23 assumption that it's correct. If he were an24 expert then it would be up to my friend25 Mr. Dickson to prove this document and these26 statistics otherwise. I am not particularly27 concerned about what they say. I'm a little28 concerned about the line of questioning going to29 teen pregnancy rates when Mr. Klette has indicated30 that that's absolutely not what his evidence is31 addressing.32 So putting to him an unfamiliar document about33 teen pregnancy rates which is outside the scope of34 his affidavit when he's already indicated that he35 doesn't recognize the document and can't attest to36 its accuracy, I just don't think it's proper. I37 think it should be marked as an exhibit for38 identification.39 THE COURT: Well, it is from his agency, isn't it?

40 MR. DICKSON: It is, My Lord, and as he confirmed. And41 he noted the publication information on the third42 page as well.43 MR. JONES: Well, I'm not sure if that's sufficient to44 prove it.45 THE COURT: Well, it wouldn't be the first report that46 we have received in this manner. It seems to me,47 as I understood his evidence, he's in charge of

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

37/56


1 the basic information that went in -- to form the2 study that was apparently in part authored by his3 own agency so from that point of view I think it4 should be marked.5 MR. DICKSON: Thank you, My Lord.6 THE CLERK: Exhibit 153, My Lord.78 EXHIBIT 153: 12 page p/c document Regional9 Analysis of Health Statistics for Status Indians10 in British Columbia, 1992 - 20021112 THE COURT: And counsel will have to tell me at some

13 point what the difference is between marking it14 for identification and marking it -- as far as my15 use of the document goes in the final judgment.16 THE WITNESS: May I make a comment on this document,17 My Lord?18 THE COURT: Yes.19 THE WITNESS: This document was produced by the Vital20 Statistics Agency sometime back. At the time21 there was a group that was responsible for health22 statistics. I was not part of that group. It was23 prior to my tenure with the agency by and large.24 THE COURT: I see.25 THE WITNESS: That group was removed and is now part of26 the Ministry of Health. We are no longer in the27 business of providing statistical data of the28 nature that is outlined in this report, which is29 why, as I say, I can make assumptions that the30 report is accurate but I have no detailed31 knowledge in the preparation of these statistics32 in this report.33 THE COURT: Thank you.34 MR. DICKSON:35 Q Just on that, Mr. Klette, on the -- I'm sorry, the36 page right after the preface in this document.37 There's a largely blank page that says at the38 bottom -- yes, the page following the preface.39 Yes. Largely blank page that says at the bottom

40 "this publication is also available on the agency41 website" and that's -- that is the vital42 statistics --43 A Correct.44 Q -- web address. Thank you.45 Mr. Klette, would you agree with me that a46 religious affiliation might also be expected to47 affect rates of teen pregnancy?

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

38/56


1 A No.2 Q You would not agree?3 A No, I have no knowledge of that, so ...4 Q Again you're not a demographer. You don't5 interpret the data?6 A Correct. Are you asking me in a layman capacity7 or?8 Q That's right.9 A I wouldn't think so. I don't have much knowledge10 to base it on, but yeah.11 Q Very well. I would like to hand up a -- just an12 article that reports on a recent study in the

13 United States. This is an article that I found on14 the internet yesterday from MSNBC.com. And it15 reports on an American study as I said, and the16 title is "Teen Birth Rates Highest in Most17 Religious States." And I want to just put it to18 you first before we look at the document actually,19 that one way that religion might be expected to20 increase teen pregnancy relative to other21 communities is if the religious norms of that22 community are effective at discouraging23 contraception but perhaps less effective at24 discouraging teen sex. Would that make sense to25 you from a lay perspective?26 A Yeah.27 Q Another way that religion might be expected to28 increase teen births relative to other communities29 is by discouraging abortions?30 A I don't think that that would be significant31 enough to have an effect on -- a noticeable effect32 on teen pregnancies. The abortion rates are very33 low.34 Q Very well. If we turn then to the article and --35 the article that I handed up, and you will see36 that the first paragraph reporting on this study37 says:3839 US states whose residents have more

40 conservative religious beliefs on average41 tend to have higher rates of teenagers giving42 birth, a new study suggests.4344 And in paragraph 2:4546 The relationship could be due to the fact47 that communities with such religious beliefs,

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

39/56


1 a literal interpretation of the Bible for2 instance, may frown upon contraception,3 researchers say, if that same culture isn't4 successfully discouraging teen sex the5 pregnancy and birth rates rise.67 And that's the point that I first made to you;8 would you agree?9 A Viewed at in isolation I would say that that10 statement seems to make sense.11 Q And then you will see that there's two bolded12 headings on this first page and the second one

13 says "More Abortions among Teens in Less Religious14 States." And the paragraph underneath that15 heading says:1617 For instance, the results showed more18 abortions among teenagers in the less19 religious states which would skew the20 findings since fewer teens in these states21 would have births. Even after accounting for22 the abortions the study team still found a23 states' level of religiosity could predict24 their teen birth rate. The higher the25 religiosity the higher was the teen birth26 rate on average.2728 Does that -- do those general statements --29 would they surprise you? Those findings?30 A I'm surprised that they -- sorry.31 MS. BEVAN: My Lord, I'm sorry, I would like to object32 to this line of questioning. We haven't put33 Mr. Klette in as an expert demographer, that's34 very clear, and I feel my friend is trying to35 shoehorn expert evidence he should have put in36 through this witness who is not an expert in the37 area, who is a layperson. He's been asking to38 speculate in areas where he doesn't have39 expertise.

40 THE COURT: It's not the first time that has happened41 in this courtroom, to recognize the elephant in42 the courtroom. But the fact is your friend was43 taken by surprise with the lateness of the44 evidence. I'm going to give him a fair bit of45 latitude. I appreciate that the witness is simply46 giving his lay view. It may be more effective,47 Mr. Dickson, if we simply consider this part of

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

40/56


1 your Brandeis brief.2 MR. DICKSON: Fair enough, My Lord. I would be content3 with that. I would like to mark this document if4 I could as an exhibit. I well understand the5 weight that would be attributed to --6 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to mark it as though it7 were part of the Brandeis brief, so that's the8 weight we'll give it.9 MR. DICKSON: Very well, My Lord.10 THE CLERK: Exhibit 154, My Lord.1112 EXHIBIT 154: 2 page p/c article titled "Teen

13 birth rates highest in most religious states" by14 Jeanna Bryner dated 08/02/2011 at bottom right15 corner1617 MR. DICKSON:18 Q So just returning to the basic theme of this19 article and this -- these few questions, this20 article is -- this study that the article is21 reporting on is finding a relationship between22 religiosity and rates of teen births; would you23 agree?24 A That's what it is claiming to find. I find it25 fairly surprising that it's doing that.26 Q Very well. And you don't -- you're not basing27 that surprise on demographic expertise, as you28 say?29 A No, there are so many -- there are so many other30 things which impact things such as abortion rates31 especially in a country like the States where the32 access to clinics for people may differ from state33 to state. To make such a broad sweeping statement34 that there's a tie between religion and the number35 of abortions that are carried out I find -- I'm36 just surprised that a researcher would take it37 that far to make such a statement. It's not38 something I have seen common to -- to research39 studies that are conducted here in Canada.

40 Q You're surprised by the tie between religion and41 the rates of abortion?42 A Correct.43 Q You're less surprised, or not surprised I think,44 by the tie between rates of religion and teen45 births; is that correct?46 A Again, it's -- it applies to -- it applies to a47 country the size of the States where there's a lot

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

41/56


1 more than simply religion. I think a lot of2 people -- my lay opinion is that a lot of people3 that I know that practice religion I would not4 expect to see a difference in teen pregnancy5 rates. I think that there are socioeconomic and6 cultural aspects that might have more of an impact7 such as average income, and you're looking at a8 situation where you may have more religion in9 certain states that are poorer and you may have an10 a higher teen pregnancy. To therefore simply say11 that the religion is the reason for it I don't12 think is looking at the whole picture. That is my

13 lay opinion.14 Q You would expect there to be a relationship15 between average income and rate of teen pregnancy?16 A I would think that there would be, yes.17 Q And going back to religion, I think it's clear18 from the evidence that we have heard in this19 courtroom that the Bountiful communities are20 heavily fundamentalist Mormon?21 A Yes. I would assume so.22 Q You said that you assumed that?23 A Yeah.24 Q Do you know whether fundamentalist Mormonism tends25 to discourage contraception?26 A I don't.27 Q Or abortion?28 A I don't. I'm not very familiar with the Mormon29 faith. There is not nearly as large a Mormon30 community in the country that I emigrated from, so31 ...32 Q And your research did not try to control for33 religious factors, did it?34 A No.35 Q And your research more generally has not tried to36 control for other cultural factors that might37 influence teen pregnancy in the Bountiful38 community; is that correct?39 A Well, it hasn't tried to control for it, but that

40 is one of the reasons that cohort 2 was provided.41 To give a control group that had a similar42 geographic location, and you would expect to have43 similarities in culture to compare against.44 Q You didn't examine as between cohort 2 and45 cohort 3 relative income levels?46 A No.47 Q Now, and you didn't compare cohort 3 to Aboriginal

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

42/56


1 populations living on reserve, did you?2 A No.3 Q And more generally, when you were looking for4 comparators to cohort 3 you did not search for5 communities that are relatively small and6 isolated. Would you agree with that?7 A Could you repeat the question.8 Q Certainly. When you were constructing your9 control comparison --10 A M'mm-hmm.11 Q -- group for cohort 3 --12 A M'mm-hmm.

13 Q -- you did not specifically search for communities14 that are relatively small and isolated?15 A No, I didn't.16 Q And I want to draw your attention --17 A I used those particular local health areas because18 they encompass the regions that --19 Q Right.20 A -- the mothers in cohort 3 claim to be resident.21 Q Right. They're in the general geographic area?22 A Yeah.23 Q And I want to hand up to you another document.24 This one again from the BC Vital Statistics25 Agency. This document as you can see is Health26 Status Indicators in British Columbia. Subtitled27 Birth-related and mortality statistics, 1991 to28 1995 and it appears to be volume 3, "Communities."29 Do you agree?30 A Yes.31 Q And you see there in the bottom right-hand corner32 again the Vital Statistics logo?33 A Yes.34 Q Is that correct? You will agree that this is a35 vital statistics -- a BC Vital Statistics Agency36 document?37 A Correct.38 Q And if you turn over the page you'll see it was39 published in 1997; is that right?

40 A Yes.41 Q Now, if you turn to the forward, which is just the42 fourth page of this document, the first sentence43 says:4445 This is the third and final volume in the46 updated series Health Status Indicators in47 British Columbia, presenting birth-related

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

43/56


1 and mortality statistics by incorporated2 communities for the period 1991 to 1995.34 Do you see that?5 A Yes.6 Q And what this document does, as I see it, is7 present these health status indicators for local8 health area?9 A M'mm-hmm.10 Q And then it's further broken down by municipality,11 I guess, incorporated community?12 A I'm not familiar with this document. I am

13 familiar with the kind of indicators that would be14 in here but I am not familiar with this particular15 document.16 Q Very well. And I just want to ask you about some17 of the kinds of indicators. It's a long document.18 I've just extracted some of the pages pertaining19 to a few local health areas.20 A M'mm-hmm.21 Q And I would like to ask you about them. If you22 turn to page 227. The page number is at the23 bottom?24 A Yeah.25 Q This is the local health area for Terrace, and you26 will see on the left column that there are a27 number of statistics -- or a number of indicators,28 I should say, that are listed there. And then29 going across the columns are, of course, the30 years, 1991 through '95, and then the far right31 column is a total for that period?32 A M'mm-hmm.33 Q And you see "teenage mother" on the left. The34 first one after the "live births"?35 A M'mm-hmm.36 Q You see that? And if we go over to the far right37 column you will see the rate is 134.34? Is38 that -- do you see that?39 A Yeah.

40 Q And will you agree with me that what that means is41 that there are 134.34 -- sorry, let me say it42 another way. Of 1,000 live births 134.34 of them43 are to teen mothers; would you agree with that?44 A Yes.45 Q And if we turn over the page here are the46 statistics for the village of Hazleton, and again47 if we look at just the total for the period the

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

44/56


1 rate -- sorry, the total rate for the period of2 teen births it's now 220.34 per thousand live3 births?4 A Yes.5 Q And if you turn over the page and this is New6 Hazleton and again there the rate is 119.66; is7 that correct?8 A M'mm-hmm. It is.9 Q And if we flip over two more pages until we get to10 Nisga'a. I take it this is relating to the11 Nisga'a territory, and you can see -- you can see12 in the bottom left-hand corner there's a map

13 telling you where this local health area is. But14 here the rate is -- 13 moms is 209.18 out of15 1,000?16 A Yes.17 Q And again if we turn the page over -- sorry, two18 pages over to Telegraph Creek, and again on the19 map in the bottom left-hand corner you can see the20 area of Telegraph Creek, the rate here is 200 per21 1,000?22 A Yes.23 MR. DICKSON: Chief Justice, I would like to mark this24 as the next exhibit if I may.25 THE COURT: Yes. Thank you.26 THE CLERK: Exhibit 155, My Lord.2728 EXHIBIT 155: 20 page p/c document titled "Health29 Status Indicators in British Columbia,30 Birth-Related and Mortality Statistics 1991-1995"3132 THE COURT: Does it have the Cranbrook/Creston area?33 MR. DICKSON: It doesn't there, My Lord. I would be34 happy to provide the entire document. It was --35 it was 250 pages.36 THE COURT: I'll leave that to your friends to ask if37 they want you to do that.38 MR. DICKSON: Very well. Thank you, My Lord.39 Q And in terms of the comparisons that you're making

40 with cohort 3, you've looked at the province as a41 whole in cohort 1?42 A M'mm-hmm.43 Q And in cohort 2 you looked at the Cranbrook and44 Creston areas?45 A Yes.46 Q And I'm going to suggest to you that if we look at47 all the local health areas in the province that

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

45/56


1 you see quite a lot of diversity in teen pregnancy2 rates. Would you agree with that?3 A I'm not familiar with the figures. I assume there4 would be diversity.5 Q You haven't looked at the figures relating to all6 of the local health areas in the province?7 A I don't know off the top of my head the teen8 pregnancy rates for all the local health areas. I9 assume there would be a diversity though.10 Q Right. When you were comparing -- when you were11 looking at cohort 3?12 A M'mm-hmm.

13 Q And its results on teen pregnancy.14 A M'mm-hmm.15 Q You didn't look to other local health areas beyond16 Cranbrook and Creston to determine whether17 cohort 3 is an outlier, for instance?18 A I think we may have looked at -- just generally19 taken a scan of the -- of those figures. I'm not20 quite sure what the question is you're asking so21 maybe ask again. I'm not being able to give you22 the information that you need maybe.23 Q Well, perhaps what I'll do is just hand up one24 last document and ask you in that context.25 Mr. Klette, as I understand it the vital26 statistics office issues quarterly digests with27 standard tables of vital event statistics for each28 local health area; is that correct?29 A Currently those are issued on our behalf and with30 our authority. We don't put the statistics31 together anymore. They are put together by the32 Ministry of Health.33 Q I see.34 A However, I think that's just a technicality. The35 data that is used for putting those reports36 together does come from us.37 Q Very well. And it's available on your website?38 A Correct, yes.39 Q At the bottom of this document that I've just

40 handed up you can see the web address at which it41 is obtained?42 A Yes, it is on our website.43 Q Very well. Now, this is sort of a blurry printout44 at the top, on the first page here. So at the45 third page there's an option where you can print46 it out as an Excel spreadsheet and so I did that47 because it's a little bit clearer. And this

8/7/2019 02-09-11Transcript-Day32

46/56

46Bruce Klette (for AGBC)Cross-exa

Documents

02-09-11Transcript-Day32