THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Tejano Community

THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES

Tejano Community Advisory Committee Meeting - UT-El Paso

INTERVIEW WITH: Miguel (Mike) Juarez,

DATE :

Cesear Caballero , Oscar Lozano (Tape 2)

21 May 1994

PLACE: Unive rs i ty of Texas at El Paso, Texas

Bob Fitts, Leslie Burns INTERVIEWERS:

(mixed conversation)

... Oscar Lozano, high school teacher , Cesear

Caballero, librarian, Miguel (Mike) Juarez, activista

activist.

LB:

BF:

LB:

BF:

And it's Leslie Burns and Bob Fitts.

This is Bob Fitts. (laughter)

It'd better be.

(laughter) You're on the air.

.. . Last time I looked. (l a ughter)

So what are the o ther ... what views do you have of how

the discussion is going on? .......... .

BF: Really useful. We were talking a little bit about

music when we stopped and do you want to tel l them a

little bit about what you were saying about Johnny and ?

LB : Oh ... the one member of our committee who couldn't

make it today is Johnny Rodriguez , he has a master in music,

with an emphasis in ethno-musicology. He's also a

performance artist and t here was a performance this week-end

in Austin so he was unable to make it because of t his prior

committment. But we 're relying on him to do ... at least

Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 2 UT-El Paso / Bob Fitts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

orchestrate ... to use a horrible pun research about the

music. So again ... any consu l tants that you can think of

for this area ... dealing with music or the arts or anything

like that would be appreciated.

Well, as you might know ... there's a general music

called Tejano music but on ... and El Paso has always been a

part of tha t trend. Some very important groups have evolved

from here ... ................... for instance ... Ray

Comacho is from this area. And he's famous in California

mostly ... but he originated here. And like him there are

many others that have gained some kind of prominence and

moved on the artistic ladder they're not ... no longer

here in El Paso . But as part of your exhibit maybe you can

do a section of the history of Tejano music and how it has

evolved.

I ...... .. .. . entertainers ... say like vikki Carr .. .

isn't Vikke Carr from El Paso? and also different

individuals from the area .

I ... for the history would you be including Juarez?

..... Juarez because both cities are really neighboring

towns. And it's not like San Diego - Tiajuana where they

have to drive some miles to get to Tiajuana ... it's both

. .. the cities share the same borders .. . so ... can that be

somehow displayed within the exhibit?

LB: I think we have to address that ... the border region

like ... La Frontera '" because it's so different from the


rest of Texas and the rest of Mexico, too .

Yes.

LB: I think we have to talk about that in some way.

And if you do address it ... I guess that brings up a

whole new ... a whole new chapter I guess ... in either

personalities and/or music ... history ... politics ...

BF: For instance one of the things t hat came up about that

is that a t least down along the southern Rio Grande and what

used to be a strip west of the Nueces ... an awful l ot of

Mexican - Americans didn 't even know they were Americans. In

fact, I suspect that that information was somewhat kept from

them and encouraged by the Anglo population in that area

they didn't know they could vote ... this is a long time

ago .

BF: And so there's this relationship that's r ea lly tangible

with Mexico ... which you guys are certainly

aware of it

Yeah . And then a lso the various labor movements ...

the Bracero Program ... and so forth

LB: Which program? I'm sorry .

The Bracero Program. And also the various

World War II .

And also the various . .. I think ... anti-Mexican

sentiment ... I guess ... feelings through the various

Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 4 UT-El Paso / Bob Fitts / Les lie Burns (Tape 2)

decades and how there's one now ... there's one now in

California.

The Bracero Program ... excuse me ... the main

objective ... the Bracero Program brought what was an

invita t ion by the US Government to bring in labor from

Mexico ...

Guest-workers .

... guest-workers ... thank you.

LB: Guest-workers?

That's like my father was ... one of these people that

came in soon after the second war ... well, during the World

War ... to work on the railroads and other industries. As

you know, the US was a t war and a lot of the men had to go

to war so ... the government saw that it was necessary to

import laborers ... guest-workers and that happened .

The Bracero Program resulted in a great movement of people

to the US. Some which were repatr i ated soon

after that but a lot remained here and settled portions of

the country ... anyway ... I like to explain that because

and then . . ...

Then one of the different programs my ......... . .

immigrants . . . early history of El Paso and the Southwest

from I guess the early 1900s to about 1920 ... '30 or so . . .

so that would be a good ...

Marty Garcia?


Yeah, Marty Garcia . It woul d be a good introduction to

the area and so forth.

And how the railroads and industry helped s hape thi s

r eg ion ... t hat ' s also very impo r tan t.

LB: I've actually been down there video taping the

railroads and some of that ... we did quite a bit of

shooting of ... establishing shots around El Paso before we

did our Tigua documentary . Because the Ti gua history a nd

the Mexican-American history ... Americanos ... it

c ris scrosses a lot.

I t h i nk it would be a great idea to ... f or future

exhibits to give ample credi t to the fact tha t by the

time the Anglo started moving to Texas ... that there was

a lready an established ... a number of industries ... v e ry

well established ... or economic activities if you wi ll ...

in terms o f f arming and ranching . . . irrigation was pretty

much in place ... the trade . . . especially trade. And I

don't think that comes through in either t he history or in

the education that's taught to children . It results in a

lack of self - esteem and a lack of r e cognition that the

p res ence of the Americano here has had a posit i ve impact on

what Texas is all about .. . and I think it should come

t hrough in t he future exhibits .

Well, along the same vein, in talking about settling

the West ... when Anglos ... Ang l o settler s came i n to this

part of Texas ... and I'm sure parts of south Texas .. . that

Tejano community Advisory Committee Mtg 6 UT-El Paso / Bob Fitts / Le s lie Burns (Tape 2)

they arrived and parachuted in and they landed in

circumstances that allowed them to survive ... settlers from

the East that had to venture into quote/unquote unc i vilized

areas of the West l ike Oregon or Colorado ... Wyoming

those areas where there were no quote/unquote aspects of

civilization those people were real pioneers . They had to

develop something from scratch ... everything from finding

b u ilding materia l s to cu l tivating the land and those k i nds

of things that enabl ed a people to survive . When the Ang l o

settlers moved into Texas ... especially in Central South

Texas or here to t he EI Paso area ... those kinds of things

had a l ready been developed ... what to use as bui l ding

materials . . . how to farm the l and . . . what kind of farmi ng

methods to use .. . what was effective ... what was not

ef fective ... and so the Mexicano-Chicano taught the Anglo

settler all of those things.

LB: The indigenous people?

The indigenous people. And I think t he exhibit should

relfect that .. . you know. It was not strictly Anglo

sett l ers t aming the West in Texas . .. right?

LB: That's a good point.

There was already a Mexican c owboy ... the vaquero

which pre - dated the .......... . has been established

cowboy .. ... . . .. ... West .. . .. .

The cowboys .. ............... West.

Most of what they learned ....... cows

Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 7 UT- El Paso / Bob F i tts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

cowboy words . .... .. .

It may be good to show and if it doesn't already s h ow

it .. . the ... a drawing or a depiction of the ranches that

existed .. . t h e industries t ha t exis ted throughout the s t a te

or the region ... and what they were producing . We know

from the histories that exist that there was a l o t of

production of grapes ... wine from what we read t here

was a wine production industry in El Paso and other parts of

the area that even exported to Mexico and to other parts.

This was an important wheat growing region and we do

not think of it as a wheat growing region but ...

It was .

.. . a ll along the river valley it was an important

wheat growing r egion.

Anyway ...

LB: We do t hat ... we sort of do that in our Nat i ve

American area ... establish what it was like pre-point of

contact. What sorts of civilized ac tivities were going o n

. .. to try to d i spel those myths .. . but this wou l d be a

logical progession to have this throughout.

Yes.

Maybe from the exhibit you could generate publications

which could be . .. say ... sold at the gift shop or posters

or something that people can take back wi th them.

LB: Videos?

Videos .... ..... ... postcards .. .


LB: Yeah.

BF: As a general rule a number of things kind of spin-off

from a project like this one ... including videos ... s t udy

guides and what we call Tex- kits which are taken around to

schools and so forth like that ... as well as pamphl ets and

that kind of th ing . Once all the work is done then a number

of things can be based on that ... to extend its impact and

so forth. So yeah ... that's t he plan I think.

LB: I h ope so.

BF: A question we ..... talked about i t much .. . but

okay ... here ' s one that I think has obvious answers ...

but I'm going to ask it anyway ... do you believe tha t there

are particular traits that bind Tejanos together? And can

you list some of those that you t hink are most i mportant.

I think language ... music . .. cultural values ... and

that goes together ... and then to an extent ... religion

... brings us together Tejanos Chicanos ...

throughout the state ... like the same kind of music ... and

in a general sense the food that we eat although we have

variations of food but you know we have a basic

built in blocks of different plates like the tortilla

and the frioles and the chiles ... right? ... that blends us

together. Cultural values like family togetherness ...

Community .

... community values ... veneration fo r motherhood ...

quote unquote ... the mother's always respected and it is

Tejano community Advisory Committee Mtg 9 UT-El Paso / Bob Fitts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

sort of like we ... being really that keeps the fami l y

together ... and many times it is the authority in the

family contrary to the republic ... or the prominent image

of the macho, dominant family ... that is not necessari ly so

... those kinds of t hings those kinds of cultural values

blends us together.

There 's a l so a dedication to country . Many Chicanos

Mexican-Americans served in many ... in the various wars

World War II .. , Korea ... Vietnam ... there was a

disproportionate number of Chicanos ... Latinos . .. who died

in Vietnam. And as a result of Vietnam ... that War

Moratorium was created in 1970 ... so I think service to

country ... t o the f act that when people immigrate here .. .

when Mexicanos immigra te t o the United States there's that

... there's that need to give back something to the

community and to the country.

BF: Another talking point I think in there is the GI Forum

and what the military service and the availability of the GI

Bill and stuff like that did to help people who hadn't up

until that time had any educational opportunities. It

opened some doors that weren ' t opened before.

LB: Should we address ... I know of some Mexican-Americans

are not Catholic ... ?

I think i t 's important.

LB: Oh, you think it's important to bring out the ... ?

Yeah ... yeah. I think it's important that people


understand that there's ... just like in other cultures

it ' s not totally homogenized in every respect and certainly

philosophy ... such as religion ... would . . . should be

treated ... and let people know tha t there are variations .

I mean ... my mother became a Jehovah ' s Witness . . . okay .. .

my d aughter is growing up a Morman and so on and so forth.

And it's a l l in the family. We still have a strong Catholic

tradition but we also have within that same Catholic

tradition that maybe that needs to be explained ... a

strong native kind of philosophy.

In that context . .. you have the veneration of the

Vi rgin de Guadalupe which has it's roots to indigenous

beliefs which was the veneration of ... . . .. .. . ...... . the

Mo t her Earth . .. as representative as Mother for all t he

people and even though ... like Cesear says . .. mos t

. .. not all Mexicanos ... not all Chicanos are Catholic . ..

you know ... you still have a ... these kinds of beliefs

that somehow La Virgen . .. even if you're not a devout

Catholic .. . you don't belive in . .. quote unquote . ..

Popism . .. right? . . . that somehow the Virgen is above a ll

of the native t h ings associated with the Catholic church .

And I think that links Chicanos . .. Tejanos . . . throughout

the s t ate of Texas there ' s a veneration for La Virgen

even though people might not be devout Catholics.

LB: And this is because of Mo t her Earth . . . their

ind i genous tradition of Mo t her Earth?


Right.

And I think one way that maybe various examples of the

Virgen could be disp l ayed which wou ld make it maybe more

exciting is the different forms where it's found . Maybe in

some forms that it would be considered more lik e folk or

craft . .. you find the Virgen on anything . .. from Catholic

products to etching

Tattoos.

Tattoos . . . handkerchiefs ........ arte ... and

diversity of images

A strong image very strong image.

LB: ...... in the Amer i can .. . National Museum o f Natural

History in Washington, the Smithsonian has an exhibit ...

American Encounters .. . on New Mexico ... and they have a

display like that ... of tattoo ... and a Guadalupano banner

... and var i ous things ... but it is it emphasizes the

popularity . .. not just the religious aspect ... but the

true popularity of the image . Any other ways you can think

of to engage the public in this exhibit ... visually?

I think a very effective video tape would be showing a

matachin group doing the Fiesta Guadalupe ... doing the

dance that is done every year . .. that is done every year i n

honor of the Virgen de Guadalupe.

LB: I video taped that in ... December before last . I n San

Antonio we need to understand that there are differences

across t he state.

Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 12 UT- E1 Paso / Bob Fitts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

It would create a l ot of understanding of the

indigenous link to the current society.

LB: Yes.

I think.

LB: Yeah, I think so too . It was fascinating for me .. . I

was brought up Methodist and ... you know ... it was

fascinating.

Another type could be .. . say t he food ... food maybe

I don't know . .. does the bookstore sell receipe books

or things like that that people can take with them? . . . or

somehow if they ... do you celebrate the . ... . ...... . . ? or

maybe some of the different receipes that go along with the

LB: We have an altar every year. And we also have an

interpret ive area that's sort of a stage set-up . . . with a

backdrop of the jacal ... and there's an interpreter who

does . .. who grinds corn and does that . Explains the

indigenous tradition. What do you t hink about that? Is

that something that we should continue to incorporate or do

you think ... ?

jacal

LB: Can you do that? Since you're

BF: I'm embarrassed to some extent to ... it's not really a

jacal . . . it's more of a setting to give a feel for a jacal .

It's got some cane backing and this and that stuff and then

a ... basically a platform about the size of this room


maybe a little bit bigger . .. with a lot of different food

preparation i tems and medicina l t hings and . .. you know

utensils ... foods ... and that k ind of thing. And the

programming that goes on there ... the interpretation covers

a wide range of kind of household food and other rela t ed

things.

Two great contributions by the Mexicano n o t on l y in

Texas but throughout the country . . . are the use of nat i ve

materials to build shelter. Of course the use of the adobe

I think that comes through on your video tape . . . and

the the architecture. Perhaps in developing future exhi bits

maybe that can be used as part of the exhibit to show the

form and style. More than just the jacal idea because

. .. and to me jacal connotes a very ... almost a temporary

structure

Even a primitive .

... a primitive hut.

I was going ask how did you arrive at the use of

that word jacal? Was it ? Di d you encounter

. . . . . . . . . . . . ?

BF: I didn't arrive at it ... it's been there for years . . .

before I carne that was in operation .

Have you had people in other parts of the state using

have you encountered people using that word in their

vocabulary?

BF: Yes .


Like in South Texas?

BF : Uh-huh. South and West Texas .

I would I think that maybe ... I'm not sure we

would agree with we may agree t hat ... you may be

cautious to use that word ... and how you use it in

terms of depicting or portraying a dwelling.

Uh-huh.

Because ... yeah in Spanish jacal means a very

primitive dwelling.

A shack.

A shack ... almost like a ... not exactly a shack ...

but a primitive dwelling .

LB: A hut?

Excuse me?

LB: A hut?

A hut.

LB: No, we don't use the word hut in the Native American

area.

That's what I mean ... that ' s what I mean. That's why

you shouldn't ...... .

It has the same connotation.

You should be careful how you use that word.

And if you're trying to depict like a household of the

1800s or even later ...

Then it wouldn't be .

.. . an adobe structure for this part of the country ...

Te jano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 15 UT-El Paso / Bob Fitts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

an a dobe structure is more appropr ia te . I don't know 1n

the Lower Valley over there ... but here the building blocks

were .. ...... in this area . And . . .

The dominant ... . in Texas lik e t hat . .. the adobe

structure would be .. ..

BF: In San Antonio they did a lot of stone a nd they did

caliche blo ck .. .

Caliche block

BF: . .. which is very like adobe except they literally

quarried caliche

Just cut it

BF : blocks ... cut it and stacked i t up ... but that's

one that interesting to t h e jacal notion because ... who

was lecturing us about that s ub ject that talked about ... it

was Dennis . . . right?

LB: Uh-huh. Yes.

BF: He talked about t h e fact that in Mexico .. .

LB: Dennis Medina . Ri ght?

BF: Dennis Medina , yeah. That one of t h e things t hat

seemed to be turning up was a k i nd of ... a certai n kind of

sentiment about jaca l s ... showing up on calendar pictures

... with a kind of romantic scenes and that kind of

thing it was kind of like k ind of a very sentimental

thing and almost like the old l og cabin or the old home

place

Tej ano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 16 UT-E l Pas o / Bob Fitts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

BF: ... or t hat kind of thing . And .. .

Although j acals do get used a lot even today in the

very tropica l areas of Mexico ... why? because t hey are

very coo l ... (laughter) .. . t h ey're cool . Anyway

LB: I h ave a quest i on ... and maybe I should b e asking this

of women participants ... but we have no women ...

He can stand in for one .

( laughter)

LB: If you can

I'll stand in for one .

LB: Some people have criticized ... some women have

criticized our in terpretative area . .. because it has the

interpre t er in the jacal ... on her knees gri nd ing with a

metat e a mano ... and that somehow we s hou ld not portray

women on their knees . .. that it's a bad stereo - type . Do

you have any comments about that?

Shouldn't por tray anyone on their knees ...... .

Tha t's tru e .

LB: But that's how

On the other hand that was .. . h is tori ca l l y that's

correc t ~n terms of how t hat metate was used . I can

tell you for a fact ... my grandmother used it in exact ly

that manner . I don't see how else i t could have been used .

Becau se you need a lot of lever age to pull that great heavy

r ock across that gr indstone .

But let me suggest ... that if you try to convey the


importance of a metate and corn products I'm sure

LB: The importance of corn, yes.

you can come up with better ways of depicting that

rather than having tha t lady using the metate.

LB: But ... because that's effective on the floor because

you can pass that a round to the kids they can smell it

they can ... they might even eat i t ... you know ... and

There's something you know ... I may differ with

some of the folks here but I have no problem with

depicting the women . .. if the women find that objectionable

I can understand ... but you know ... there are some

things that women can be too sensitive about and I'm going

to ......... .

... .. sexist rema rk.

That may be so .. . but you know what? . .. I can tell

you that's exactly the way it is used ... is exactly how I

remember my grandmother using it ... I don't remember

anybody using a metate standing up ... or how else would you

use a metate? On the other hand ... it's an historical

thing because nobody uses metates anymore ... not even in

Mexico .. . so (laughter) What are we worried about?

LB: So maybe we shouldn't even put it in there? No?

Maybe not.

See Cesear, if the purpose of any kind of historical

exhibit is to teach people and you want to teach young girls


about

Okay .

... their self-concept ...

Okay .

.. . you don't want to teach them that women should be

to do the ... that women should be designated to do the

backbreaking work in the household .. . t hat they are the

servants of the household ... you don't want to teach that.

If we're concerned about

LB:

If we're concerned about portraying a negat ive role

then perhaps we should leave it out . I would agree wi th

Mike ... that if that's the concern then we s houl d leave it

out. But ... you know ...

Or maybe you could put a man doing it ... I guess not.

Well ... but that would be incorrect, Mike . I mean how

many men have you seen using a metate or how many men ever

used a metate in Mexico ... come on ... (laughter ) ... that

would be terr ibly ... historically ... incorrect and ...

LB: So what are good ways to portray ........ . .... in this

exhibit?

Okay guys ... you're the experts ... I'm the sexist

here. (laught e r)

I think that point that you're going to have a skit of

Emma Tenayuca is a very good way of portraying women in

leadership positions . .. leadership roles ... and in roles

Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 1 9 UT-El Paso / Bob Fitts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

that they have historically played in the history of the

Chicano ... as l eaders of our people. That's a good way of

depicting a positive image of women.

That's a good point.

Also the image of image of motherhood ... as all

Chicanos respect motherhood ... that's a good way of

projecting the importance of women in the exhibit.

Women as teachers ... women as ....

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 1, ABOUT .. MINUTES.

SIDE 2 .

not teed off ... but we don't have to be complete

revisionis t when it comes to history. That's my point of

view. History is history. Even if we don't like it. Yeah.

As Oscar was saying ... that we men as teachers ... as

healers '" those are important roles. Yeah. Anyway ...

(laughter)

BF: Another thing we talked about and this relates to food

and so forth ... is the notion of maybe instead of having

the jacal and the ... and all that stuff ... have a

fundementally modern kitchen area and portray a young

married woman who is used to only modern

Drop the daycare center.

(laughter)

BF: ... and her grandmother having to . . . because the

blender broke or something start telling her other ways you

can do things ... it could be even the grandmother's house.

Tejano Community Advi sory Committee Mtg 20 UT-EI Paso / Bob Fitts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

Something ... I don't know .. . I mean that's the kind of

thing that's been discussed . . . thrown out as an idea.

Kind of the interchange between the o l d and the contemporary

ways

But one of the concerns that I have ... now that we're

discus sing foods ... this is an interesting conversatio n

because as you can tell it brings out other issues like

the depiction of the r ole of women. I'm concerned one

of the concerns that I have is that for many people Mexican

f ood is made up of beans, corn a nd perhaps rice and maybe a

littl e b it of some kind of meat. Well, yeah, and of course,

chili. It's al l those but it's certainly a lot of other

ingredients that if you sta r t just expoloring it ' s

tremendous the types of ingredients and the types of dishes

t h at are used ... that were used a nd are sti ll used. And I

often hear people saying stupid things ... well . .. not

stupid ... but ignorant comments like ... oh , y eah , Mexican

food it's you have one dish ... you order the Mexican

plate and you have a combination of ingredients just in

different formats. Well, that could be so in the

American i zed version of Mexi c an f ood but real Mexican food

is a combination of many, many wonderful ingredi ents. And

that could ... if you could portray that in your exhibit in

the food exhibit that would be a great contribution to the

understanding of the fact that Mexican food is not just

(laughter) those ingredients in different shapes and forms.


Because it's not. (laughter) You go ... I'm sure that in

Texas ... bac k then and as well as today there were a

great variety of foods are consumned and I'm sure that the

public wou ld be well served if that were to come through.

I guess you could tie to ... you could tie the culture

to it being something like a capirotada which is like a mix

of so many different things. J ust like the food and

everything else and to show that t he Mexican -Americans

Chicanos ... Latinos ... whatever the named will be called

... Mexican-Te janos ... or wha t ever ... it's a combination

of many different groups ...

Influences .

. .. and influences ... heri tages ... and generations

later we've seen those heritages .

Yes.

Yeah.

Look at me ... look at me. Do I look like a ... what

do I l ook like? (laughter)

Like a Jewish ..... . ..... .

Jewish

(laughter)

So that's something that's going to be re-occurring and

not to type-cast or not to stereo type Chicano ...

Americanos as one singular form.

Yeah.

And I think in the future it's going ... it's going to


be radically different ... it's going to change ... and it

continues to change ... Chicanos are in the period of

transition ... a people in transition ... a nd I think the

end product ... the one ... I think knows what

that will be ... but it's ... we're on a journey ... on a

voyage ... on a path ... which started many generations ago.

And on many different continents ... ago also .

I think another important aspect of the culture is the

spoken word. I n regards to the ...... legends ... maybe

stories .. . fami l y history ... the oral traditions songs

music .. , also the words from the poets ... the

philosophers and so forth each community has i ts own set

of poets and song writers and so forth. So somehow there

needs to be I think some interactive component or maybe just

asking people to come and read from their work or ... events

of this nature I think would be important fo r people to

hear.

LB: That's a good point. And of course I would like to see

it interactive .,. on video or audios (laughter) so ...

Yes, and also with the growing technologies ... I mean

computer ... generated . . .

LB: The touch-screen things ... that's what we're looking

into.

CDs and so forth .

LB: Uh-huh. Exactly. Accessible ma terial ... quickly

accessible material.


I just h ad a visual imag e in mind of a ... because I'm

still concerned about the publi c understanding the

connection o f the his t orical with the current i ndige nous

influence. I could see . . . and you may a l ready have this in

your diorama ... o r depicted somehow ... t hat the hea l er in

ancient times and then next to that the current ... modern-

day hea l er in action. One though t . ( l aughter)

LB : Mike, yeah, I can see doing that in v i deo.

Yeah.

LB: And supported with h istoric materia l and ...

The ancients preparing a variety of foods .. . hundreds

and maybe t housand s of ingredients ... not to mention

pharmacology ... herbs ... pharmacological herbs ... and

then the modern preparation of foods using hundreds of

ingredient s .. , not to mention herbs medicinal

ingredients . Some of which have made their way to the

regular market ... in the form of much c ommerc i a lized

ingredients ... like chocola t e

LB: Yeah.

(laughter) ..... . . mention it.

BF: Made me forget what I was going to say.

I'm sor ry. ( l aughter)

BF: Oh ... something that and you can correc t me if I'm

wrong ... but I believe i t was discussed in a meeting

that people in the Valley who went to Edi nburg ... or at

least some of t h em ... objected strongly to the te rm

Tej ano Commun i ty Advisory Committee Mtg 24 UT-El Paso / Bob Fitts / Lesli e Burns (Tape 2)

" "

Curandero?

Uh-huh . That t hey in the Va lley ten ded to equate that

more with being more like witchcraft ...

Shamanism .

.. . shamanism .. . and it was a low-grade kind of

h ealing compared to another form . .. t he name of which

escapes me .. . and that I t hink must be different than San

Antonio i t may be different than here too. And the way

they looked at

I'm thinking of

LB: Yes.

Is that the term you're thinking of ?

BF: Yes, that sounds r ight.

That's t h e same thing . Well , I know what you're

talking about ... because I visited ... and I've had

... they do equate curandesimo sor t of like the

occul t ... and they are ......... .. afraid of .... . ...... .

and spells and stuff like that .

(laughter )

They might be ..... . .. .. .

'" educated people ........ but they're hung-up on

that thing. But .,. you don ' t see that here in this area of

Tejas. Curanderos are seen in a positive light a nd they 're

. . . they are synonymous with .......... ... . a nd seen in a


positive light . You don ' t ... people don't associate

curanderos with bad things or evil things. Although

........ people do know that there are some witches that are

out there for evil purposes ... but people are not afraid o r

hung-up on those kinds of ideas in this area.

BF: . .. ... ... thinking more in terms of the positive and

not sweating the ... yeah ... well , okay t hat's ...

that's ...

LB: I'm glad you brought that up.

BF: Yeah.

LB: Differences in area.

..... talking about getting back to the jacal thing.

You like that one.

Jacal.

May I suggest that ... I know what you 're trying to

project when you . . . when you use the term jacal and as you

described t he jacal .. . I know what the image is that you're

trying to project .,. but may I sugges t that i nstead of

using the word "jacal " that you use the term "hogar. " which

is more symbolic of .. .

LB: Would you spell that please?

H-o - g-a-r. Hogar. Which is ... you ' re trying t o

r epresent the hearth .. . the family hearth ... which i s wh a t

you described and that's the hogar. And that ' s more

a ppropriate and I think that i t would be more encompassing


in to what the family did they understand the concept of

which is the family unit .. . the heart of

the family

Where the family resides.

LB: The kitchen. Right?

Not necessarily the kitchen .

LB:

The ... where you have the VCR ...

No ... I think ....

LB: Yeah ... I like that .

I t h i nk also the fact that the family not necessarily

justs concentrates activity in the kitchen I think i t i s

very important too. ....... now that Chicano - America nos are

like everybody else ... pretty much ... you know .. . the VCR

culture . .. the TV culture ... pretty much .... . . . ... it's

no t so much I'm ............ deep in the stereo-types .. .

and now with .. . .... Chicanos I guess found in .. . a lso the

f a ct tha t Chicanos are found allover the wor ld ... it's not

just the Southwest anymore . .. so that .......... .. . . And

they're getting print ed and published and . .. exhibi ted in

a ll parts of the world too. It's not just a .......... .

Southwest ..... or the US ... ..... . . .. In Mexico t oo .

There's been a resurgence to ... an interest ..... Mexico to

r eally court Chicanos ... especially in the last decade ...

for various economic and political reason s.

Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 27 UT-El Paso / Bob Fitts / Lesli e Burns (Tape 2)

LB: What about NAFTA? Should we even talk about that?

It may be a li ttle premature .

I don't thi nk that's part of history.

LB: Well , no ... the exhibit floor is not just history ...

I mean ... what do you think of h istory? History is what's

happening

Now?

You mean in terms of portraying it into ....... .

LB: In the e xhibit?

If you are going to include it in some way ... I ' m sure

you're aware that there 's a lot of division wi thin our

community as to the benefits or the negative aspects of it.

Here in El Paso for instance there .. . many o f us are

opposed to NAFTA because they see it as another gate for

American culture and imperiali sm to make hea dway in Mexico

and the borde r communities . I'm sure tha t in other parts of

Texas you'l l find people t hat who le- h eartedly support it

because they see it as an economic opportuni ty.

Yeah, that's so.

In that way you can include I think ... as part of your

exhibit . .. the different ways t ha t our people perceive such

a .....

I t h ink that can be dealt with in a di ff erent way.

Rather than dealing with the current issue of NAFTA and its

implications and that whole t hing .. . you may want t o dea l

with that in t erms of the connections the very strong


connections that still exist with families across the

border. Where that border is almost like a ... a l most non-

existant except except to say ... a bothersome

barrier that we have to deal with. Okay? But for example

... just the other day we went across to participate in the

opening of a book-fair ... we felt very welcome . .. very

much at home among friends and families

and maybe that needs to come through. And maybe we don't

have to deal so much with the economic and political i ssues

of t he NAFTA.

LB: With the imaginary border that ... ..... Ri o Grande

represents.

Yeah. Yeah . And that would be in teresting ... t ha t

would be interesting for people to understand that

connection ... the connection .

But if you are going to include it in the exhibit,

please don't project it as a fact that all Chicanos accept

it. We don't I don't accept NAFTA. And many people

.. ........ do not accept it. So be balanced about it.

BF: I don't rea l ly know how the Chicano community in San

Antonio views NAFTA. I mean you know ... t h e busines s

interests and the develop ... developers and that ki n d of

thing ... you know ... they're ...... .... in it all the time

because it's going to bring buck s ...

Business is pretty much for it and labor is pretty much

against the issue.


BF : But I really haven' t really sat down and talked about

NAFTA to my friends.

Well, where you could do a 7 minute video just like the

other one and ask people ...... .

Yeah. How do you f eel about that?

NAFTA ....... they'll think it's a burger chain

or something. ( laughter)

Actually ... if you want to create some controversy ...

I would include it in the exhibit ... if you don't want to

create controversy don't include it. (laughter) Everywhere

NAFTA issue goes it .... . .

BF: We've got plenty of places we can include .. . .

(laughter) ... ... you've got plent y . .. you've got

plenty of controversies

(mixed conversations)

LB: There's ... our docent do you know the story about

the docent don't you? tell the story.

The docent?

BF: You'd better tell it 'cause I'm not sure ....

LB: We have an intern area where we try to train role

models from many cultures ...

Uh-huh.

LB: ... she's . . ......... are a. And t here's one docent

that we have that just hates that because she

party and they were just getting with it ... taking down

Tej ano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 30 UT-El Paso / Bob Fitts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

pledges ........... .

BF: Well, she ... still when . .. like I say ... when we

came to San Antonio in '79 ... she still maintained a really

low profile within the San Antonio community ... she didn't

want people to know where she worked ... she didn't want

people to know where she lived she was very , very

cautious ... and she had to be she was ... there were a

lot of people that really hated her

Because of her affiliation?

LB: But actually ....

BF: Because of that kind of thing.

LB: But actually her affiliation stopped in World War II

with the Soviet Non-Aggression Pact ... she .. ..... problem

with that ... told me ... and so ... but people didn't

understand that ...

BF: Even several years ago she was still active ... she was

going down to the Valley ...

LB: Uh-huh.

BF: ... on her farm workers' strikes and things like that

.... Chicano ..... ..... San Antonio ........ during the

'70s ... I mean ... why would she feel the need to playa

low-keyed role ... I would presume that she would have this

big group of supporters ..... . defense?

BF: Well, she did in that sense ... but she wanted the

safety of privacy about her whereabouts and what she was

Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 3 1 UT-El Paso / Bob Fitts! Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

doing ... she had a public side and supporters and enemies

but the private side she guarded pretty closely.

I think maybe a component or some sort of area on how

the media has portrayed the Mexican-Americans or the

Chicanos. I think it would be interesting.

LB: Uh-huh .

Like say you could have . .. say like the Frito Bandito

that image . . . and then how the Chicano community

responded to it and what changes the company had to make .

That's good.

LB : Do you know historically .. . did that happen in Texas?

I mean ... do you ...

No, no, but I'm sure the national ... I'm sure the

LULAC organization was there ...

It was a national thing.

LB:

Yeah .

LB: Did it originate in Texas just because of .. . Frito-Lay

is a Texas ...... . Texas company?

I don't know that it ever originated in Texas . .. but

it had a strong .. . it had an important . . .... in Texas . . .

just like the rest of the country .. . that whole . . . during

the '60s and '70s especially ... that whole push to do away

with stereo types. For example .. . in El Paso the

organizations actually . .. organizations in El Paso actually

communicated with businesses that had signs that portrayed a

Tejano Community Advisory Committ ee Mtg 32 UT-El Paso I Bob Fitts I Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

sleeping Mexican on a cactus ... against a cactus or that

por trayed the Mexican as a bandito ... or any number of

stereo types. And sometimes the responses were a little

desperate ... but ... yeah .. . it happe ns.

LB: That's a real good visual

Yeah. It would make a good visual. And that would be

part of the civil rights

Civil rights .

. .. history.

Yes.

And then also the various ... I think maybe ... legal

movements . .. like the

... like the Farah strike ...

Yeah .

... or the other s trikes which have happened in this

area. And what .. . that there've been changes and so forth.

And then if we're talking about l abor ... and something that

could kind of hook on to the idea of ... or the free-trade

issue of the ................... ... the whole

......... ..... ... concept . And t hen how Texas did in this

area for years now. I guess ............. so but .. .

there's just so much that ...

LB: That' s the problem ... there's so much ... ........ .

LB: And how many square feet is this? Even ...


You know ... that's why the idea of a changing exhibit

I know it's more work and so forth ... but maybe to

chronicle the different ... maybe periods or maybe the

different regions ... I t hink would be more appr opriate .

In lieu of a changing exhibit ... perhaps you could

find it within your budget to sponsor at each locale .. .

like in El Paso ... local exhibi ts of Tejano ... Chicano

histories ... in a local settings ...

Yeah .

... and a similar one in South Texas and a similar one

in San Antonio and so on and so on. Pero as you brought

up we are not homogenous and each one of us ... each area

where we live has a distinct historical perspective and our

experiences have been a little bit different . And maybe you

know you would have ... seeing as you have never done

anything for El Paso maybe you can sponsor a local exhibit

here.

BF: (laughter) Now don't say we've never done anything for

El Paso.

You've done this .

LB:

BF: Well, I think we've one of our Institute Ambassadors

that's nearby here I'm not sure it's in El Paso.

LB: Well, I know I' ve video taped ....... .

BF: We have sent travelling exhibits to El Paso ...

You have ... yeah, you have.

Tejano Community Advisory Committee Mtg 34 UT-El Paso / Bob F i tts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2)

BF : We've ... there's one of our .... . travelling exhibits

h e r e in the library ... I just noticed it.

Yeah .. The Making of the Book.

LB: Yeah.

BF: The Making of the Book . And . ..

BF: ... and the artist .. . Jose Cisneros.

Cisneros.

There's a good idea

(mi xed conversation)

BF: . .. and i t might be really nice to do a set of

travelling exhib its that wouldn ' t be permanent . . . but each

one would be regional and then they could be exchanged

LB: Yeah, it wou l d be valuable for the Valley to see what

El Paso thinks and vice versa.

I think that's an excellent idea . .. the who l e concept

o f a travelling exh i bit . . . or regional exhibit.

LB: I hope some of that wi ll come across in the v ideos when

we come back here to video tape and interview people about

their thoughts and opinion of . . .

Because you know what? very few people ... especially I

would dare say ... Chicanos will have opportunities to

travel to Austin that often

LB: Uh-huh.

... and if people do they ' re probably there for f amily

matters or business matters and they . .. I' m not sure too


many people are going to stop by the Institute on the way

back .. . I do because . . . you know ... I usually look at the

.. . but a travelling exhibit or a visiting exhibit would be

a very ... would have a high impact very high impact I

would imagine. Anyway ... I'm sure you a ll know about that

because you already have your travelling exhibits.

LB: I would like to see one that would compare the

different areas.

Yeah compare.

LB: Yeah.

Compare. To compare and contrast the different areas.

LB: Yeah.

It would be very ..... .

Because there's really very little . . . I guess . ..

communication ..... in connect i on with the various

areas .

LB: That would be neat . .. really neat. Good idea .

BF: spent a l ot o f time trying to discuss ways of

dispelling stereo type . . . I think some of us are still

guilty of stereo typing ....... . .. .

BF: There are folks who feel like the low- riders are of

major significance ... you know ... to me I don't feel that

way because I'm a car nut ... man ... I'm in a c l ub that's

not a low-riders ... even though everybody in the club but

me is Chicano ... so

Tej ano Commun ity Advisory Committee Mtg 36 UT- El Paso / Bob Fitts / Leslie Burns (Tape 2 )

Well, people have that negative image of low-riders

because of what Mike was saying how the media projects us

.. . a nd it is the mis-information that people get . . , hey,

you're a l ow-r ider you must be a ...

A gang member .

. .. a gang member ... you must be a hood .. . you mus t

engage i n drive-by s hootings . .. I don't unde r stand ...

(laughter)

Yep.

(mixed conversation and laughter)

BF: Basically wh at I ' m saying t hough is I think the l ow-

rider is in and of itself is a stereo type

Could be .

BF : . .. because there's much more diversity i n t hat area

than t hat of I mean ... I think males in this country

and some females t oo ... are car nuts ... t o some d e gree

I mean t h ere are just lots of car nuts ... and I think

whil e low-r i ders are kind of unique ... certainly in t hei r

origins t hey are unique to Mexican-Ame r icans ... compared to

street -rods or street-machines or 4-whee l driving or

whatever ... all t hose t hings are in the Mexican-American

car cu l tures just like they are in the rest o f the culture.

The basis fo r people engaging in low-rider activi ti es

ha s to do with cultural values again. And our peop l e

..... .. . .... we value a lot and we project on to it artist i c

value . .. ......... where now-a-days you'd l ike to spend


thousands of dollars and fixing up t heir car for it to make

.......... to have a good impression of people ... it's a

way of expressing your own self-identity ... but it has its

basis going back ... way back ... to vaqueros also ...

investing a lot of money in their equipment and maintaining

their horses to make them look stand out ... in the

image of vaquero a vaquero was not a real vaquero if he had

a s l oppy looking horse and equipment ... you know. And we

have these values that have been passed on from genera tion

to generation .. . maybe i n the future we will be fixing up a

little space craft. (laughter)

LB: That is excellent.

Very good point.

Good point.

BF : So you don't think that the low-rider is a stereo type?

Oh, no.

BF: Okay . That's the question I was trying to get at.

LB : We've been called

END OF TAPE 2, SIDE 2, ABOUT .. MINUTES.

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THE INSTITUTE OF TEXAN CULTURES Tejano Community