TranscriptPodcast: BDF Advice service discuss non visible disabilities

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Christopher: Well hello good morning, good afternoon whatever time you’re listening to us and welcome to the first ever BDF podcast my name is Christopher Watkins I am a senior consultant here at BDF and I am joined today by Charles. Hello Charles

Charles: Hi Christopher yeah I’m a disability consultant on the advice service so I spend my days speaking to our members and partners about their disability related queries answering telephone calls emails.

Christopher: And on a scale of one to ten Charles how excited are you about the first ever BDF podcast?

Charles: Oh a eleven definitely Christopher.

Christopher: An eleven?

Charles: Eleven

Christopher: That’s, I asked for a scale of one to ten not, you’re not following instructions, we’re off to a good start, that’s good if you can’t tell already and if I haven’t mentioned already we haven’t done one of these before so I think that it’s worth saying from the outset that at this stage we are trying to experiment and see what works and see what you guys are interested in hearing from us. So bear with us on this voyage of discovery we do want to hear from you as much as possible hopefully listen to the whole thing first and see what you think first but please do get in touch with us, either by phone our phone number is 0207 403 3020 you can email us at advice@businessdisabilityforum.org.uk or we’re on the twitters @disabilitysmart that’s all one word, I think there always one word on twitter aren’t they? So I’ll give you another reminder of those details just before we finish but please do keep in touch. As we haven’t done one of these before and we haven’t got any of your feedback to go on we thought what we’d, we thought what we’d do just to start the programme really was have a look at I think one of the most important things that we do at BDF, which is our advice service as Charles has already mentioned. Our advice service is a service where all of our members can phone up to talk about disability related queries that they’ve got in their businesses where lovely people like Charles and others share their thoughts share their experiences with the rest of our of our members as well because that’s how a forum works so Charles you’re a lot closer to the advice service then me what is hot in disability and employment on the advice service these days?

Charles: yeah so in the past month or so we’ve been crunching the numbers from 2016 and we’ve found that really overwhelmingly that non-visible disabilities has been a massive issue for a lot of our

TranscriptPodcast: BDF Advice service discuss non visible disabilities

members and partners and that is quite a broad term and I’ve kind of kept it quite broad really but that encompasses things like mental health, autism, even things like dyslexia and even some hearing impairments can be non visible

Christopher: you’re right it’s certainly a broad term I’m struggling to think of a broader topic that we could have picked really, you say that you’ve been crunching numbers over the last year do you have a sense that actually that this is becoming more of an issue in recent years, is it growing?

Charles: yeah I mean we’ve definitely noticed a real, a real upward trend in the number of calls and emails were getting on that topic and I’ve been trying to think about why that might be and the things that initially sprang to mind are that it’s quite a difficult thing for managers to manage, I don’t think people are that, I think if people can avoid managing somebody with a non visible disability they will, so it’s easy to get brushed under the carpet

Christopher: well if someone can avoid managing someone they will as a rule, is it just that non visible disabilities are I don’t know, easier to bury your head in the sand perhaps

Charles: yeah I think you know for example if you like had a wheelchair user come into your building you would put a ramp in pretty much problem solved

Christopher: yeah you can spot a wheelchair user a mile off.

Charles: yeah exactly but I think with numbers with disabilities there’s an added issue that managers really have to kind of take time spot the signs if someone might have a non visible disability and then have quite an awkward conversation about what’s going on with that person

Christopher: yeah I think you’re right about the awkward conversation and that might be something that we can talk about a little bit later on, I’m wondering though about this kind of this upward trend if we’re being positive could it just be that managers are actually getting better at spotting those signs or do you have the feeling that something else might be behind this.

Charles: I think people are getting better at spotting signs but I think also and I don’t know if this is borne out by statistics anywhere I haven’t actually checked but I think there is a feeling that things are harder that employers are becoming tougher and looking for more performance a more results focused cultured and therefore there’s more of a focus on employees to deliver

Christopher: that’s interesting

Charles: and so issues that perhaps weren’t apparent or were easier to just let go before are now being addressed in more detail

TranscriptPodcast: BDF Advice service discuss non visible disabilities

Christopher: yes and is that across all different sectors you’re kind of seeing that

Charles: yeah definitely and even in sectors that we didn’t perhaps, weren’t feeling the pressure as much so like the public sector, historically had a bit more money now they’ve got a lot less money and so they’re looking for a lot more in terms of results from there people as well

Christopher: that’s really interesting I mean that, to put a kind of positive spin on that I suppose is that there’s been all this kind of latent potential that hasn’t been managed because managers are reluctant to have those conversations and put adjustments in place for non- visible disabilities which you know now we’re having more of an opportunity to give people with non-visible disabilities really every opportunity to meet their potential at work am I being hopelessly naïve do you think?

Charles: no I think that is a real good spin on it I think though that CHRISTOPHER: I’m very good at spinning things

Charles: haha I think to get to that point though the managers need, employees need careful and thoughtful management in a way so for example if you have a fluctuating condition where you might not have any you might have no problems working one day and the next day you might be disruptive or unable to do your job that actually requires a whole lot of different management and different skills for managers who are used to managing just one type of person

Christopher: you seem to be put quite a lot of onus on the poor manager there the poor squeezed managers I mean you mentioned if someone is starting to have problems with performance or I think you mentioned behaviour in the workplace as well that is related to a non-visible disability I mean what, to what extent do they actually just have a bit of responsibilities themselves to talk to their employer about that and take responsibility for their own health and the way it affects their work

Charles: yeah definitely I mean I think people do have a , obviously you’ve got a responsibility to manage yourself in the workplace and to you know do your job and you probably won’t get any reasonable adjustments if you don’t tell anyone that you need them but ultimately if you don’t want to tell someone your manager you’ve got a mental health condition for example then there’s nothing really that your employer can do about it so that’s where it’s up to the managers to be observant and to address situations.

Christopher: there’s nothing to do about it but they can ask right?

Charles: Yeah well you can have a sensitive conversation you don’t need to blurt it out oh by the way I think you’ve got a mental health problem to someone but you can just

Christopher: that’s never gone down well I don’t know what it is

TranscriptPodcast: BDF Advice service discuss non visible disabilities

Charles: ha-ha but you can have a conversation where you say things like I noticed X Y and Z the other day I noticed that you were quite short with your colleagues and that’s not usual for you is everything alright? I noticed that you’re work has, you’re quality of work been going down-hill recently is there anything we can talk about to you know help you get back to your usual good standard you can open the conversation up in different ways

Christopher: yeah and what from the kind of queries that are coming through on the advice service what are the early warning signs I suppose the things that actually start to indicate that this conversation might be necessary are there kind of common themes that are particular signs that managers find harder to pick up on do you think?

Charles: well I think there are some common things that people can look out for but I’d say I’d kind of prefix it by saying that is anything not usual so if someone is always late then you would probably think oh well that’s them their always late you would might want to address that separately but if someone starts being late and they’ve always been very punctual alongside some other signs like they might be getting aggressive or short with their colleagues they might become withdrawn or quiet they might be actually working too much too many hours and trying to over achieve in a way that’s not normal and not usual for them ,then if it’s a collection of things together then you might actually begin to build a picture up this persons not coping with whatever’s happening in, at that point in their life then you can have a conversation about it but bring specific examples of issues to that conversation and then kind of have that conversation in a sensitive way and make it clear you want to provide support to them but I think it’s more complicated and this is where I think people do struggle is that sometimes people just act differently and sometimes that’s ok and sometimes there isn’t an issue, you know if somebody comes in and they’ve dyed their hair you know pink or something that’s maybe they just fancied doing that it doesn’t actually mean they’ve got a problem I think that’s where managers

Christopher: apart from a fashion problem you mean.

Charles: ha-ha yeah I think that’s where managers struggle is kind of different behaviour versus a collection of behaviour that might actually be indicating that they have a underlying health condition.

Christopher: that is a really interesting balance it’s something I haven’t I haven’t given a great deal of thought to but on the one hand we’re asking managers to manage, to spot changes in people to spot changes in routine all these things that might indicate that something is up whether that be a disability or a health condition or a mental health condition or something completely un related to any of those we’re asking managers to look out for those things at the same time part of being an inclusive employer an inclusive workplace is kind of accepting those differences and not wanting to

TranscriptPodcast: BDF Advice service discuss non visible disabilities

and not wanting to make people all fit in a box and behave the same way so I guess with some non-visible disabilities could if we’re honest cause people to behave in a way that might be seen as quite odd and that’s I suppose a difficult judgement call about whether or not you do need to pick up on that, what do you think?

Charles: Yeah it is difficult I think that unless you kind of said you know there’s a balance because I think it is when these kind of differences start to have an impact on someone’s ability to do their job and that also includes their ability to interact with their colleagues in way that allows them to do their job in an effective way so I think its fine to be different it’s fine to act you know act differently but it’s when that stops you doing your job that’s when the manager might need to get involved in that.

Christopher: yeah, Have you got an example obviously an anonymised one but I’m trying to think what that might look like in practice.

Charles: Well I’ll give you actually an example from when I used to work in HR and we had a colleague who wore like a big duffle coat with the hood pulled up all the time summer, winter, indoors. And people you know were asking questions and you know her manager was concerned about it and all that sort of thing but ultimately at the end of the day if the persons still doing their job they’re still interacting with people it didn’t really matter that she was wearing a duffle coat all the time.

Christopher: ok and as a kind of counter example what would have needed to be different for it to matter?

Charles: yeah ok so I think I mean if she had not been performing to a good standard then a conversation would have needed to take place if that had stopped, if that duffle coat had stopped her interacting with her colleagues or hearing the telephone or speaking on the phone to people then that would probably have been an issue.

Christopher: yeah and I guess if she were a corporate lawyer turning up to clients at meetings wearing a duffle coat then that’s probably worth a conversation really so it always depends on the context

Charles: yeah.

Christopher: so these are the kind of calls you’re getting a lot on the advice service a lot can I ask is it normally managers you talk to or has it normally been escalated beyond that point?

Charles: a lot of the calls we get are actually from HR practitioners because many of our members decide to funnel questions through HR people but we are speaking to more managers but often they are calling because a manager is struggling with a situation and I think it is that kind of front line face

TranscriptPodcast: BDF Advice service discuss non visible disabilities

to face contact with the manager and the individual where things often break down and I think partly what we see is a long history of things not being managed very well miscommunication remarks taken out of context and so relationships have often got to quite a bad point before it gets to the HR team so it can be quite hard to pull that back, I think as well we don’t expect managers to be experts on every single impairment that people might experience so people might have an impairment their manager A has never heard of B doesn’t know anything about and even more so doesn’t know what to do about it when they get told about it so I think those are the kind of issues managers might be experiencing.

Christopher: and there’s kind of a whole set of issues which probably we don’t have time to talk about today which is actually how to how to bring it back from that stage where communication started to break down but I’m conscious and I don’t want to put you out of a job Charles but hopefully we’ve got some HR people listening to this have you got any thoughts for them on actually how to stop it from reaching those stages I mean what do managers really, what’s missing why can’t managers handle these cases In the early stages before it reaches that point?

Charles: I think it goes back to what I was saying at the start it is about being observant knowing your team well but being sensitive to different people in the team so if someone is difficult and you think they’re being difficult it’s about trying to look beyond that because it can be quite frustrating when you’re trying to manage a team and one person is taking up 90% of your time but it’s kind of looking beyond that and looking a bit further ahead and how you can resolve that situation, it’s difficult I’m not going to say it’s not but actually you know is it about having a conversation about adjustments is just about having that sensitive conversation with what’s going wrong rather than this persons a problem.

Christopher: I suppose I’m thinking I spend a lot of time at kind of HR meetings and conferences and there’s nothing that a group of HR people like more than sitting around and agreeing that it be so much better if managers were better at all this stuff because then we’d have less work to do and what can they what can we actually do to affect that I mean do you have any thoughts about what kind of guidance would be useful for managers?

Charles: yeah ok, so I mean we’ve got at BDF we do have a number of publications that might be useful for managers buts also members and partners can call our advice service and that includes line managers can call us directly and we’re happy to speak to anyone about queries that they’ve got talk through specific examples that they might be struggling with, and I think you know training is really key, I think it’s not about training managers on one particular impairment but it’s about equipping managers to have those difficult conversations and to respond appropriately and then to open up that dialogue about adjustments.

TranscriptPodcast: BDF Advice service discuss non visible disabilities

Christopher: mm ok so non-visible disabilities is hot and getting hotter by the sounds of it it’s been growing for a few years now and there’s all kinds of reasons for that big challenge of course and it kind of says is it on the tin is that its non-visible and that it can be difficult to know whether or not it’s an issue that needs picking up on whether or not it’s actually just someone being different and its ok to be different, if you had and I’m going to put you on the spot here, three top tips for employers Charles, what would they be?

Charles: ok so I’d say training for managers to have those difficult conversations, so equipping your managers with the skills, I would say keeping an open dialogue about reasonable adjustments and constantly because I mentioned these can be fluctuating conditions they might change people might need different adjustments at different points I mean also having a process to make those adjustments quickly and effectively.

Christopher: Making adjustments quickly and effectively and how quick is quick these days?

Charles: I think it depends on the adjustment so often for non-visible disabilities it might actually be something very easy like changing someone’s working pattern it might just be changing the way you work with them which can actually almost be an immediate change that you could make for that person if there’s something that’s more, you know a bigger adjustment requires money to fund that adjustment and that can take a little bit longer but yeah a lot of these adjustments are very cheap and can be instant.

Christopher: So there you have it, they are our three top tips let me ask you know Charles is your excitement still eleven?

Charles: Absolutely haha. Christopher: It’s so hard to tell I think it’s the Scottish accent haha, I have no idea whether you’re being sarcastic or not, well thank you very much those are our three top tips on non-visible disabilities in employment I hope you find them useful, as I do say if you’ve got any questions around this area you can, you can get in contact with us either on advice@businessdisabilityforum.org.uk over the phone 0207 403 3020 and speak to a lovely person like Charles or you can contact us on twitter @disabilitysmart We’d also really like to hear your feedback on whether this kind of podcast is useful or interesting to you so that we can have a think about what we might be able to do in future as well. So on that note thank you very much for listening and its goodbye from me.

Charles: Goodbye from me.

Ends.