Schecner Boal

8/13/2019 Schecner Boal

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Augusto Boal, City Councillor: Legislative Theatre and the Chamber in the Streets: AnInterviewAuthor(s): Richard Schechner, Sudipto Chatterjee and Augusto BoalSource: TDR (1988-), Vol. 42, No. 4 (Winter, 1998), pp. 75-90Published by: The MIT PressStable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/1146719.

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Augusto oal,CityCouncillorLegislativeheatre

and theChambern theStreets

an interviewyRichardchechnerandSudipto hattejee

Interviewers'ote: n late1996,whenwe metwith oal,ratherhan formalnter-view,we had an extendedonversation.hat spublishedelow eginsndends nthemidstf hat alking. -Richard Schechner

BOAL: [...]Just o take care ofyourfamily,rfriends,ourmafia-SCHECHNER: Still,that'swhat mostpeople do, they ook out fortheirown. They think, There's no chance for ll thesepeople I see in thestreetsto have a good lifebecausethere re too manypeople,notenough obs, notenoughroom,not enoughdoctors, chools, ivablehousing, tc., etc." Theveryfewgetricher nd theverymanygetpoorer.There's no wayto imagineall of thepeople now alive-not to mention he billionsmorecoming-hav-ingaccessto what s needed for full nd dignifiedife. t seemshopeless.Ahundredmillion rehelped,but nextyearthere re200 millionmore, lwaysmore. The pressures n theplanetare overwhelming. laguesonce thoughtpossible o control r eveneradicate rereturning-tuberculosis,alaria;newplagues ike AIDS continue to spread. n otherwords, nature, rwhateveryouwantto call t, s takingtsrevenge.BOAL: But what s thequestion? s it,"Whatshouldyou do to helpothers?"or "Whatshouldyoudo to work withothers o helpthemselves?"SCHECHNER: Tell me.BOAL: Okay,charitys good. But we canbe charitablenlyto a smallnum-ber ofpeople, not to thewhole world. But ifwe are togetherwithotherpeople in changing omething, he effectsmultiply.n our experiencewith"Legislative heatre"we have 19 groupsworkingnow [I996]. We encouragedialogue mongTO [Theatre ftheOppressed] roups.One groupmeets n-other o exchange nformation,o participaten each other'swork.We try oThe Drama Review42, 4 (T16o), Winter 998. Copyright 1998New YorkUniversitynd theMassachusettsnstitute f Technology.

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76 Schechner/Chatterjee

1-7

.........K::oM X:.

1.A Theatref he p-pressedrouperformsTrabalhador,Forum create netofsolidarity.otmyfamily, yrace,my ex for tself,utmyTheatreiece,nFavela family, y ace,my exwith he ther nes.Andthis, think,snecessaryfJidio toni, iode we are oproduce hange.Janeiro.Photoourtesyf SCHECHNER: Whendidyouget lectedndhowdoyoudefineegislativeAugustooal) Theatre? ow didyourwork s a member f theCityCouncil ofRio deJaneirorom992 o1996] onnect oyour O work?BOAL: I belong o theWorkers' artyPT]. But I also work hroughheCenter f theTheatre f theOppressedCTO] wherewe doworkshopsorwhoeverwants o come.But naddition amthePresidentftheHumanRights ommissionor he ity fRio. Anyone as he ightocome o theHumanRights ommissionnd ay, Oh,look Thepolicebeatme";or, Iwaskidnappedy omeonenthegovernment";r, Mywife isappeared "-allkinds fproblems.I have childwho s ntodrug ealing." astyear hehead fAmnestynternationalskedme toorganizeublic udiencesor imsohecouldhear romll thehumanightsrganizationsnRio.SCHECHNER: This spart fyourwork s a CityCouncillor?BOAL:Yes.SCHECHNER: Howmany ouncillorsre here?BOAL: Forty-two.SCHECHNER: For hewhole ity fRio? Howmany eople ive n Rio?BOAL: Yes,42for hewhole ity.OfficiallyhepopulationfRio issevenoreightmillion, ut nrealityt s 14million ecauseof the avelasslumsettlementsurroundinghe entrality].t s a very ery igcity,n enor-mouscity.



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Augusto oal 77The Council has general essions, ut also we divide nto smaller roups.Often Councillorsdon't go to thegeneral essionswhich are fullofstupidi-ties. There is someone who ispaid to listen ndhe callsme whenit s neces-sarythat go thereto vote, or something ike that.My officehas closerelationswiththe otherCouncillors, heir ecretaries,heirdrivers.Andwehavewhat calltheChamber n theStreet o helpme determine ow to voteon certain uestions. ometimes t'sobvious how to vote,but at other imesit'scomplicated. or instance, hemayorwantedto have a MunicipalGuard,a kindofmilitaryolice. In Rio, theordinaryitypolicearen'tpolice nyoursense.Theyare "Guards"taking areoftraffic,afetyn theschools, hatkindof thing.These persons re not armed. The Mayorwantedto arm them.didn'tagreewith that. thoughttwould be dangerous orthepeople ifthecityGuardshadguns.But I wasn't bsolutelyure.So we wentto theschools,we went into thestreets, eldmanymeetings.At each of thesemeetingssaid,"Okay. I have tovoteinfavor r against.What do you say?"The peoplewho camegavetheir pinions.We made a Chamber ntheStreet,isteningothepeople. It was verybeautiful. ome Guardscame to speakand they aid,"We don't want to be armedbecause if we have guns,thenarco-traffickers,knowingwe arearmed,will shootus. Iftheyknow we don'thaveguns, heydon't careabout us. So we are muchsafer f we don't have guns."You see,the narco-traffickersavebetter uns,machineguns.Another ssue we took to the Chamber n the Streetwas aboutsterilizingwomen. I had to vote in favor r againstfmunicipalhospitals ouldperformthatprocedure penly nd forfree orwomenwho wanted tdone. I thinkwoman has theright o sterilization,utatthe same time know theauthori-ties used to sterilize oor womenmassively. o I said, "I want and I don'twant t. Let's make a Chamber n the Street nd see how thepeople feel."

And they aid,"Vote yes,but with ots of amendments." he amendmentsincluded hat womanhas to askforher tubes o be tied at east monthbe-foredelivery-if he is goingto have a baby-because at the moment f hav-ingthebaby, he'ssuffering,ndmaybe he'llsay,"Yes, I want t,"and thenregretwhatshehad agreedto. Also that ny agreement or terilization astobe witnessed. nd that verywoman has to be informed boutallmethods fcontraceptionnd giventhemeansand access to them.Everywoman has toknow that here re alternativeso sterilization.o I modified he aw,putting2. Augusto oal with heJokersfCTO-Rio. Lefttonight:laudetteelix,OlivarBendelak, elenSarapeck,ugusto oal,Bdrbaraantos,ndGeoBritto.Photo ourtesyfAugusto oal)

::::::::::::::::::j2::i:::::i::::::::-:-:::.9-01:i:Wmi:,::ij:...........-x-:::



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LegislativeheatrepdateALetterromugustooalI October 997

DearRichard,You askedme toupdate urexperiencefLegislativeheatre ndamhappyosay hatweare, lowlyut teadily,dvancingowardsn-othertage.Atfirst,t wasvery ard otake t. We were bsolutelyonvincedthatwe haddonebeautifulnd mportantork uringhe our earsf

ourMandate t theChamberfVereadores,oth n the egislativendinthe heatricalields.We had formed 9 permanentheatre roups f"organized p-pressed";we hadpromulgated3 aws hat amedirectlyrom hosegroups,rom heir ialoguewith heirwncommunitiesndwith hepopulationn the treets; e hadmade,n 13cases, esire ecomeaw ;wehad ntenselyoughtgainstllsortsf njustices-economic,ocial,political,exual, tc.We werehappyndproud f ourselvesndourwork.Wewere ure fourselvesnd...we adfailed.In 1992,when waselected, o one believed t couldhappen,n-cludingmyself.llwewanted as ohelp heWorkers'artynd heircampaign. e had project:o do theatrespoliticsndnotmerelyo-litical heatre-but o oneunderstooderywellwhat hatmighte ormean. urprise:waselectedIn 1996, veryone as sure wouldwinagain.Manypeopleevenaskedme forwhom heyhould ote, ince twas certainwouldbereelected.nside heparty,wasconsideredobe one out ofthree rfour ereadoreshatwouldobviouslye reinducted.nthepublic pin-ion,everyonenewnowwhatwe meant ytheatrespolitics. ur-prise: wasoutAtfirst, ewerevery ad,discouraged,isappointed,elancholic.Ungratefulopulation nattentiveoters e hadofferedurwork,our acrifice,ndwe were ejected ettertop.Butwe arenotused ogivingp.We decided ogoon, ogofurtherThenew tagewas-and stills-difficultostructure.BeginningnMarch,fterinishingt theChamber,llthe Jokers"(the ulturalndtheatricalnimatorsftheCenter ftheTheatre ftheOppressed,heCTO-Rio) had ost heirobs. The Chamber adpaid heir alariesor our ears. heyworked or ree or he19stablecommunities,nd other leatorynes, ll ofthem ery oor.Manylivednslums. heMandate aseven bliged,nmanyases, oput tsownmoney ofinance heatrectivities:ettings,ransportation,ndeven ood.The Mandateost ndeveryone ad to gettheir ubsistencelse-wherend ouldno onger ork or ree oromany roups. adly, esawthem eing ismantled,nebyone:only few re till t work-thepeasants' roup,omeothers elated o thechurch,ome npoorcommunities...lowing own.



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Augustooal 79The Centerof the TheatreoftheOppressedwas then egally onsti-tutedwithonlyfivemembersBirbaraSantos,ClaudetteFelix,HelenSarapeck,Geo Britto, livarBandelek) nd becamea non-governmental

organization,o try o get funding. ome groupshave already romisedto help.We will see. Contactsweremadewithgovernmentsfothercities,with hedoctors' nion, he tate niversity,nd someothers.We enteredhenewphase:Legislativeheatrewithout heLegislatorWiththe doctors'union,we made a playaboutwomen athospitalsin all aspectsrelatedto sex: sexualrelations, ontraception,bortion,givingbirth, tc.-how women aretreatedn Rio deJaneiro's ospi-tals,and whatshould be done to better heir ituation.With thestu-dents,we made a play boutcrueltygainst reshmenttheuniversities.InJuizde Fora,we made a playaboutgarbage n thestreets, ygiene.In other itieswe madeworkshops.These playsand showsdid not lead to the creationof any aws. Inthis spect, he most nterestingxperiencewe aredoing s in thecityofSantoAndre,which s a very mportantity loseto Sio Paulo,withmore than9oo,ooo-a greatnumber f workers ndtraditionallyverycombativepopulation-it was in thatregionthattheWorkers'Partywasfounded ome 18years go. Also, t was thebirthplacef theCUT(Workers entralFederation).Here theexperience,xtremelyruitfulndrich, asfollowed hese teps:I. In May,twoJokers ftheCTO-Rio conducted Io-dayworkshopabout theessential echniques ftheTheatreof theOppressed;50peopleparticipated,ost f themworking or hegovernmentntheareas feducation, ublichealth,ndculture. hisgroupproducedForumTheatreplayaboutcomplaints f thecitizens, nd we pre-sentedthatplay n thestreets,with ntensepopularparticipation:morethan20o pectactorsntered hescene. I was theJoker fthefirstresentation.2. These 50 participantsividedthemselvesntosmallteams nd re-producedthe firstworkshopfor bout 15 differentommunities.These communities,n mostbut not all cases,producedtheir wn

plays bout theirown problems nd discussed hem n their wncommunities.3. The citygovernmenttarted projectcalled "Participatoryud-get,"whichwas theexclusive rademarkftheWorkers'Party ndis now alsobeingusedbyother olitical artiesnpower.Basically,thegovernmentroposes division fthebudget ccording o theregions f thecity nd according o thedifferentctivitieshat n-volve thewhole city, ike health,education,transportation,tc.Each regionand each sectionofsociety hatwill handle a certainamount ofmoneyorganizes tselfn assemblies nd decides howthatmoney hallbe spent nd whichare their riorities.4. Here, the two processesmerged: ll publicsessions,n whichthepopulationwas invitedto give theiropinions and vote, alwaysstartedwith thepresentation f a ForumTheatreplaydepictingproblemsand inviting veryoneto find out solutions.After heplay and the Forum,the normalassemblydiscussionsfollowed,stimulatedythetheatre resentation.n this spect, t was differ-



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80 Schechner/ChatterjeeentfromheexperiencenRio, when hetexts f the awwereproduced y heForumtself.5. Atthe ndof his rocess,hegovernmentollectedll uggestionsandproducedhebudget fthe ityby aw, hebudget as obedeliveredotheChambereforehe ast ay fSeptember).So itwas: ast30 September1997], t6:ooP.M., ccordingo thelaw, heCTO-Rio organized,ogetherith antoAndre'sopulation,a "school f amba," rparade, rprocession,n which llsectionsfsocietyhat ad contributedothebudget ere epresentedn"wings"(like na school f amba). hebudget,ntheform f a theatreropbook,wascarried n an altarlike n a procession)ndthewholewasanimatedy "battery"fdrumsndpercussionlikena parade).Thisgroup rossed he own nnouncinghefirstudgetmadewithpopular articipation,nd nvitinghepopulationogoto theCityHall

where hemayor aswaiting,here e receivedheBook of heBud-get, rossed he quare,ndenteredheChamber fVereadoresode-liver ttothePresidentf heHouse.It s true hathis rocess asnot ntirelyheatrical,rmainlyheat-rical;t strue hatomemportantlementsfLegislativeheatre erenotused-likethe Interactiveailing ist"-but t salso rue hatwehave lready egun his ewstage f the xperiencefdemocratizingpoliticshroughheatre:egislativeheatre ithoutheLegislator.We cando more ndbetterext earNext ime...where?hen?Ofcourse,n Brazilwherewe intenselyelieventhismethod,ndintenselyork ort tohappen. ut his hould otbea Brazilianxpe-rience.tshouldpreadut nto ther ountries. e want emocracy;theatreanhelp nthis rocess-whyot?WhenI startedhe Theatre ftheOppressedmovement,manypeopleused osay: Yes, t svery icefor atinAmerica,ut nothercountriestwillnotwork..."Today heTO ispracticedllover urope,North merica, frica...At east12bookshavebeenwrittenyother eople bout heir wnexperiencewithTO, in politics, sychotherapy,ducation, ocialwork... O isnotBrazilian,otLatinAmerican.t sa processhat anbe used-andfurthereveloped -in llsocieties here minimumffreedomxists.Before he ndof his ear f1997,'lltrywootherxperiencesut-sideBrazil. he firstne nMunich,uringworkshoprganizedy hePauloFreire ssociation,t the ndofOctober. he second ne,begin-ningnDecember, ithmy wnCenter fTheatre f heOppressednParis. nthis ne, ponsoredy heFrenchovernment,5childrenithdifficultiesill ollow three-monthorkshopndwillbe oined y n-other roup f20adultsnd, ogether,heywill ryopropose rojectsof aw,using orum heatrend therheatricaleans.Perhaps, earRichard,fyouwant, will write omemore boutthese renchndGermanvents,n oneofyour utureditionsf TDR.And...perhaps...aboutomethingimilarhatwe cantryn theUnitedStates...I ould ove tAllmy estwishes. -Augusto oalRiodeaneiro



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Augustooal 8Iin all the uggestionshat amedirectlyrom hepeople. wouldn't avethoughtbout llthesehings yself.t came rom heChambern the treet.SCHECHNER: Do you lwaysote hewaypeople ay ovote?BOAL: Up tonow,yes. gotothepeople nlywhen amnot ure.Whenamsure, don't ven sk.They lectedme andthey ave o bear t. But ofcoursemost fthe imeweagree.Alsowe havedifferentailingistshatweuse togatherpinions.canwrite o500 o I,ooopeople aying,Boal has ovoteon this r that uestion, hat's our pinion? xplain our osition."Whatwe foundwasvery ice:Many imeswhen person eceives letteraskingheirpinionheor he makes meeting ith ther eople o that donotget neperson's pinionlone.We get ettersack hat ell s, We dis-cussed he uestionndwe thinkhat ou hould ote hiswaybecause f..."Butthiss not ll.We have ormedbout 0oO groupsf bout 2peopleeach.Theyhavetheir wnrepertories.or nstance,ealthnRio, or theviolence fRio police, rcandidates ho bribe rcheat oters. candidatewillgive voter checkwithoutigningt orgive hemmoney or heden-tist-but hedentist ill upplyenturesftheupperaw only. hiskind fthing.We tellpeoplenot to vote for hesekinds fpeople.We tell thepeople, These andidatesillgiveyou money ow but ater heywillvoteto raise usfares..."rsomethingike hat.Each active O group asJokerst thenucleus. heJokersreblack tu-dents,omesticmployees,easantsromutlyingegions,nd o on. TheJok-erswork nthe ehearsalsherehey iscusshe roblemsith he eople.Wedon't ictateo them.We ask hem,What oyouwant otalk bout?" henwe makemage heatre ith hem. henwhen heyreready, e do ForumTheatre ith hem or he ommunity.hisway he ommunityees nddis-cussesheir wnproblems.he differentO groups isit ne another.laysfrom ifferentommunitiesre hared. nd ometimeseautifulhingsappen.Once there as communityospitalhat eededmoneyrom hegovern-mentwhichwasdispensedy philanthropicocietylike foundationntheUSA].But fter fewyears,he hilanthropicocietyefusedogive nymoremoney.We losetime, e losemoney, e don't et nythingack."Butthegovernmentouldnotgive hemoney irectlyecause hat'sllegal,thas ocomethrough philanthropicociety. he peoplemade Forum heatrewhere heProtagonistasreplacednorder o find waytoconvince hephilanthropicocietyo accept he ntermediateole.Thingsweregettingdesperate. o one could comeupwith nythinghat ouldconvince hephilanthropicociety.When ome tudents orking ithus inTO came,theyhowed hem heplay ndsaid, Look,we did notfindny olution."One studentried,utwasnot uccessful.hen second, third,ntil inallyone studentecame Protagonisthosaid, Let'snot ryoconvincehem,because t s mpossible.ut other eighborhoods,ther lums ave he ameproblem.owhy on'tweget ogetherith llthe thernes nd reate urownphilanthropicociety?"o my awyer elped hem o draw ptherightpapers.Now they ave philanthropicocietyhat eceives hemoney otonly or his nehospitalut or everal.Andonceevery alf-yeare do festivals. e invite 0 or12groups hocome from o:oo in themorningntil :00oon theafternoonndperformnonstoporum heatre.Many eople rom ifferenteighborhoodsome oparticipate.anyproblemsreexplored.While heForum heatresgoingon, havepeoplewrite preportsboutwhatssuggested.hesereportsrethen roughto what call metabolizingell-a group fpeopleundermygeneraloordination,ncludingawyers-who ead ll thereports.he me-tabolizingell finds ut what hepeople ay,what hey uggest, hat hey



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82 Schechner/Chatterjeeprotest.llthatmaterials metabolizednto everal orms:rotest,uggestionforegislation,egal ction,nd o on.SCHECHNER: And f t's egislation,ou ntroducet nto heChamber?BOAL:Yes.SCHECHNER: Howmay llies oyouhave n theChamber?BOAL:Onlymy wnparty.nd few thers.SCHECHNER: Ifthere re42in theChamber,owmanyre herenyourparty?BOAL: Inmy arty,nly even. o we are minority.ut sometimese canforce debate. he bill bout terilizationn thehospitalsas pprovedn thefirstnd econd eading,ut hemayoretoedt.When heveto amewehadtoconvincehe ther ouncillorso overrideheveto.We mobilizedeopletopressureheCouncil,nd hevetowasoverturned.uttheMayorwent ocourt boutt.A udgewilldecide-but his an ake ne tothree ears.SCHECHNER: Atelectionsoes hewhole ity otefor heCouncillors,rdoyouget lectedn districts?BOAL: Therewere 00 candidatesor hewhole fRio.SCHECHNER: Thetop42get n?BOAL: Moreor ess.You vote or personut t the ame ime or hepartyand thenyoudividethe number fvotesby42. If thatnumbers, say,I00,000, then or achIoo,ooovotesyour arty ets, ouwin oneCouncilseat.My partyot6oo,ooo otes owehave ixCouncillors.was monghetop ixonmy arty'sist,o got n.SCHECHNER: That'swhat's alled proportionateepresentation."BOAL: But ndividualandidateson't etmuch f chance ospeak ia themedia.When ran had o seconds ospeak nTV. Andthis tatementp-peared,et's ay, ive imes.nthenext lection,willhave12seconds.SCHECHNER: What anyou aynIo or12 seconds?BOAL: I said, Myname sAugusto oal. want llofyouto voteforme.

3. Grupo eleza doChape"u,neof he 9per-manentroups f heMan-date1993-1996,erformsin costumes ade fnews-papersndcaps rom eercans, n FavelaChapeuMangueira,io dejaneiro.(Photo ourtesyfAugustoBoal)

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Augustooal 83But fyoudon't oteforme, don'tmind.Voteforwhoever ouwant. utvotefor heWorkers'arty"intheBrazilianystem,voter otes or othan ndividualandidatend party].wasthe nly andidate hosaid, Voteforme, fyouwant, ut fyoudon't, hen oproblem "hat tatementotme a lotofvotes. eople ppreciated y enerosity.SCHECHNER: Howmanyimes aveyoubeen lected?BOAL: Only lectednce, n1992.SCHECHNER: Andhowmany ears as hat or?BOAL: Four. amrunninggainnow 1996]. don'tknow f willbe re-elected r not Boalwasnot]. t'svery ifficultogetreelected,ecauseRiopeoplehavethehabit fvoting or neperson nce.They ay, I've votedfor im lready. owlet's ote or omebodylse."This takesutnewsletter]scalled heBrokenrombone,kind fmusicalinstrument.e publishhis veryhreemonths. e give utbottleapswithmyname n it. Andwe offermapofRio showingll theplaceswherewehavegroups orking.n the irstage say, I want o bereelectedecausewe'redoing hiswork nd fyouwant hiswork ogo on,youhave ovoteformeagain."Butmygroup aidthat hismapgives he mpressionhat here reveryfew roups.hemap hows nly he ermanentO groups.o wewillmakeanotherncludingll thegroups, ermanentndtemporary.henyouwillsee that O isgoing nall overRio.SCHECHNER: Were hese roups ew ince ouwere lected?BOAL: Twowere here efore,7arenew, nd ntotalwe havemore han50permanentnd emporary.Wetryomake urpublicityunny-andothe oint. nce a plebisciteasproposedo ee fBraziliansantedmonarchy,epubliclikeheUSA], rpar-liamentaryystem.thoughthiswasbeing idiculous,oing ack omonarchy.So I made napparentlyeriousext okingun t the lebiscite. hat ind fmonarchyoyouwant, hat ind frepublic?putmy aricaturen tasKingwith ome fmy riendsscandidatesor ueenAnd f t stobeparliamentary,what ind?We distributedbout ,ooo f hese tfirst,hen 0,000more.SCHECHNER:Duringheyears ouhave een ntheCity ouncil, hat ro-portionf ime oyou pendnLegislativeheatrendwhat nregularO?BOAL: Mostof the imewith egislativeheatre. cango awayduringheBrazilianummer-December,anuary,ndFebruary-whenhere re nosessions. lso nJulyhere renosessions,oI cango away.SCHECHNER: Butfor evenmonths,ou re here?BOAL: Mostofthe ime. ometimeshave o eave, utnever nJune ndNovember henwevote or he udgetf he ity.SCHECHNER: How do thepeople,notthepeople nyour arty,ut thepeoplewho areagainst ou,takethe fact hat theatre ersons a CityCouncillor?BOAL: Theytakemeseriously.have o manyawsuitsgainstme. I wassuedby heCounciltselfwice.SCHECHNER: What or?BOAL: TheRio SecretaryfCulture oldme that he wanted ohelpmywork. heMayors ofthe xtremeight,he s not.Shearrangedorme to



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84 Schechner/Chatterjeegetsound, ights,ransportation,ndthingsike that.We signed n agreementwiththe city.But no moneywas involved.You don't receiveany money.wasdenouncedbecause,beinga Councillor, can'tsign contract. ut I said,"It's not a contract,t's an agreement, here'sno moneychanginghands."Even so, I was triedby the Council. I was acquitted.No problem.But anewspaperwas paid to mount a campaign gainstme. For threeweeks myphotoand that f theSecretaryfCulture ppeared n thefirstagewiththecaption, DangerousRelations "And,you see,myfriendsndmyfamilyead"DangerousRelations"with a picture howingme cheek-to-cheekwith thiswoman-it wasreadsexually.SCHECHNER: Les LiaisonsDangereuses.BOAL: Exactly. inally wrote letter rotestingndgiving herightnforma-tion.Theypublishedt,but nvery mall rint n the eventh nd ninth ages.Next they uditedmy ncome taxesfor he astfiveyears,microfilmingv-erythingfmine,mybankaccount.There have been two trials. heydidun-believable ndstupid hings. he personwho examinedmytaxesputa zeroatthe end of a certain umber,multiplyingtby Io. It looked like I earnedIotimeswhat really arned.Then they aid,ofcourse, owed lots ofmoney othegovernment-based n an incomemultiplied y Io.CHATTERJEE: They iterallyorged he document?BOAL: Yes, they orged hedocument.Butwhydo theydo thatwhen theyknow I canprovewhat really arned?They aresimply arassingme. Theyknow itwilltakeyears o get t alluntangled. amfacedwith20 lawsuits ndtwoprosecutionsor he samething.SCHECHNER: Who paysforyour awyers? our party?BOAL: I have to pay. My salary s Councillorgoes to the awyers nd otherthings have to do to defendmyself. he lawyers remyfriends nd theychargeme less,but still lose money. don't getanymoneyfrombeingontheCouncil, lose it.CHATTERJEE: Earlieryou told us how Rio is controlled y druglordsndcriminals. ow has this ffected ourwork?Do you take on thesedruglordsinForumTheatre?

4. A peasants' roup,Grupo ampondseCulturaol daManhd,Itagual, erformingorn-ingSun, 1993. PhotocourtesyfAugusto oal)



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Augustooal 85BOAL: We cannot o that,we cannot e heroic.We work ndangerousconditions.any imes havegone o Forum heatre na hillside-SCHECHNER: -Rio isa city fmany ills-BOAL: -of many ills.And lookupand seedrug ealers ithmachineguns. hepolice onotgoto thehills-excepto nvadendkill eople. heydon't onormalolicework here. hedruglordsometimesell s toget ut:"Go away, on't omeback "Theyhave tolen urvantwice. o show x-actly ho tolet, heyent s whatwas nsidehe an. o we receivedhema-terialshatwere nsidehevan nd hen hevanwasused orob bank. henthey estroyedhe an.The nsuranceays, utnot hewhole amount].o, tisdangerousork.n 1968,t wasdangerousecause fthe tate,hepolice.Now t'sdangerousecause fboth he olice nd he rooks.SCHECHNER: Thecurrentovernment,omatter owbad t s, snot sbadastheuntas,hegenerals?r s tasbad?BOAL: I know hePresidenterywell.He was a teacher fphilosophy.eworked ery lose omyArena heatrenSao Paulo intheI960s].We in-vited im ndother eachersromheuniversityocome.Sometimese andthe thers ould riticize efor otbeing ufficientlyarxist hese re hemenwho havemadeglobalization.wouldnot ay hat his overnmentsworse, ut t'sproducing orse esults ecause hey resellinghewholecountry,hebases four ndustry,orwhat? or rottenapers,"tock ertifi-cates. hey reopening razil orwhateveromes romheoutside, ithoutanyprotection.he results?actoriesreclosingllover, nemploymentsincreasing.o the esult,nmy pinion,sworse hanwhat hemilitaryid.Butthese ays cansaywhat amsaying ere.There'sno "freepeech"problem. cango into he treets,ake microphonendsaywhat want.The peoplewho aresellinghecountryetaliatehroughthermeans.t'swar-again.The Presidentelongso a partyn the xtremeight.SCHECHNER: Right? ven houghe was Marxistnce?BOAL: "Was" s the ffectiveerm.CHATTERJEE: comefromWestBengal,ndia,wheret's xactlyhe amesituation.he very arty-theCommunistarty f ndia Marxist]-whowouldhaveburnedIo busesnprotestgainst two-paisaricehike-thesesame eople renowwelcomingoyota, uzuki, oca-Cola. t's nabsoluteturnaround.hy oyouthinkhis shappening?BOAL:Because heNaziswon thewar.Not n the ense hatGermanyulestheworld. utwhat hey nderstoodsthat or hemtwould ebetter ot ohave nerace, necountry,omogenizingheworld,ut ohave neclass o-ing t.Therich. heBrazilianich rehappy ith he ituationnBrazil. heIndian ich, am ure,revery appy.herich all t"modernizing."call takind fpaxRomana,postmoderneo-Romanmperialism.t s a kind fnewfeudalism.nBrazil herereplaceshat ou angotowhere neman wns heregion. e isthe xecutiveower,heegislativeower,heudge, verything.CHATTERJEE: utmy uestion as bitmore pecific. hy s tthat rst-whileMarxist artiesrgovernmentsreturncoats?heyradicallyhangetheir osition. ow,doesthat ignifyfailurefMarxismr s t a returnobasichumannstinctsikegreed?BOAL: No, I did notsay hat hepartiesn Brazil hangedheirdeology.No, not theparties. believe hat heCommunistartyn Brazilgoesonwith heirdeology. heyhavenotchanged. hey re till talinists.o, the



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86 Schechner/ChatterjeeSymbolismnMunich

Augusto oalThe Paulo Freire ociety,o namednhonor fthegreat razilianeducator,nvitedmetoshow ome xamplesfLegislativeheatrenthecity f Munich in1997]. explainedhat urexperiencenRiohadtaken s fourwholeyears o approve 3new aws, nd that hemostwe could do in onlyfour ayswould be a paleandsymbolicevent, hint fwhatmight e that heatre ormn thefuture,nthecity fMunich r elsewhere.We startedurwork nd,over our ays, reparedive mall cenesabout ituationsfoppressionevealed ythe35participantsf theworkshop.ne of the cenes reparedythegroup ealtwith verycommon roblemnGermany-and,sfar s I know,nmany therEuropeanountries:omemen hoose wifenmatrimonialgencies,lookingt their hotos, Vs,andothernformation.hosewomen rerecruitedrom ountriesikeRomania, hailand,nd even nmy wncountry,razil.Once thebridegroomaschosen iswife, he s im-ported ythe gency ith romisesfmarriagend wonderfuluro-pean-stylerincessife.Ofcourse,hoseyoungwomen revery oorandfull fhope-also very aive.Once thewomen rriventhe oun-try, art fthe gency's romises fulfilled:heymarry.ncemarried,thehusbands-inmost ases, ot lways-behavesthoughhey oughta slave,nd reatheir ives ssuch,nthekitchennd nthe ed.Moreoftenhan ot, hosewomen on't peak word fGermanndhavedifficultiesearninghe anguage. hey on't ave riendsnd ometimesareforbiddenogo out without heirmen.Thehusbandseepstrictcontrol ver hem.fthewife ecides o eaveherhusband-itsnoteasybut t spossible-she utomaticallyosesherGermanitizenshipand ssent ack oher ountryy he olice. he spunished,othimDuring heForum hatwe did nside hegroup,heparticipantse-vealed heirpinion:f crimewascommitted-namely,marriagefconvenience or hepurpose fgetting erman ationalityor hewoman nd a slave or heman-bothpersonsreresponsibleor hatcrime,ndnot nly hewoman.Thepropositionf Project fLawbecame lear: hewomanhouldbe punished ith he ossofcitizenship,es, utnotwith eportationfrom ermany: ost f hosewomen adnot nly conomicroblemsbackhome, utpoliticalnes; nsome ases, heiriveswouldbe en-dangeredhould hey e deported. ndthehusband,onsideringhathe was lsoresponsibleor akingmarriage,hould epunished ithshort erm nprison,o discouragehispractice. ther hort cenesweremade bout ocial ecurity,arriagefgay artners,se ofpublicspace or rivatectivities,tc.On thefifthay,Fritz etschfromhePauloFreire ociety) b-tained ermissiono do the ForumTheatrenside hecityhall theRathaus),nd nvited any oliticians,ncludinghemayorfMunich,whodid notcomebecause t washisbirthdayut ent isvice-mayor.Thevice-mayorttendedhe ession t the ideofthe ecretaryftheGreen arty orBavaria: hose wopersons ere heonly uthoritiespresent.fcourse, e had nvitedverybodylsebut, nderstandably,they admore rgenthingsodo.The informationeleasedbout he tartingime or he ession aswrong nd somepeoplecame to theRathaus t i i in themorningwhenwe were ehearsingor he resentationt :30P.M.Amonghose



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Augusto oal 87personsame n old adywith otally hite air, sing canetomovearound. hehadbeenat thepublicecturehat deliveredn thefirstdayoftheworkshop,uring hich explainedhefunctioningf theLegislativeheatre.

I rememberhat, uring hedialogue ftermy ecture, notherwoman aid hathis rocessouldhaveworked ell nBrazil, ecausein Brazilwe areBraziliansmeaninghatwe dance ndsing,which snotnecessarilyruefor ome ofus...) and thatwe areextrovertedpeople.But-accordingoher-this ouldnotwork t all na countrylikeGermany,here eople remorentroverted,ess xpansive.hetotallygnoredheOktoberfestrepliedhatwhen introducedheTheatreftheOppressedTO) inEurope, frequentlyeard he ameopinion. ndyet oday,heTO ispracticederyntenselynalmost llEuropean ountries.fcourse,neachcountry,eoplehave o adaptthemethodotheir wnculture,heirwn anguage,heir wndesiresand needs.TO is not Bible,not recipe ook: t s a method o beusedbypeople, ndpeople remoremportanthanhemethod.Thesame anhappenwith heLegislativeheatre:neachcountry,it has ofindts wnformor pplicationoreal ituationsnthat oun-try. ut thewoman hat ight eld oheropinion.And theold adywithwhitehair nda beautifulane at her idedidnot ay nything.Whenwe startedhe how ttheRathaus, explainedhatwhatweweregoing o do hadonly symbolic alue:we had notdonethewholeproceduref theLegislativeheatre;we hadnotdonemanyshowsformany ifferentinds faudiences;we had not done theChamberntheStreet bout heproblemsresentedn the cenes;wehadnot donethe nteractive ailingListto consult eoplewhoseopinionsmight e usefulnpreparinglaw,and whoseknowledgecould nlightens.On the ontrary,e wrote heProjectsfLawour-selves, hich ositivelys not he ighthingo do. So, f ny, hepre-sentationttheRathaus ouldhave nly symbolicalue.Aftermy ntroduction,e did the cenes. he audience hose hreeofthem,ncludinghe lave-wifecene, ndwe did a Forum heatresessionn those hree.Manypeople ntervened,ven he ecretaryfthevice-mayor n the lave cene,most fthe nterventionseresimilaro ours. o close he vent, e deliveredurProjectsfLaw-someone adpainted eautifulettersn a beautifulaper, omakegood mpressiono theSecretaryftheBavarian reens. hewasverynice tous,and said that heunderstoodhesymbolic ature ftheevent ut, ven o,shewouldreallyake hose rojectsfLawtotheGreen egislatorsor onsideration.We werevery appy.On herwayout,theold adywith hecaneand whitehair pproachedme-she was one ofthefirsto come n,andone of he ast o eave. he calledmeand aid:It sveryntertaininghat ouhavedone. agreewith ou nd knowthat hiss ust symbolicction. ut twasverymportantorme:youhave hown hat his spossible. nd thadnever rossed ymind oimaginehat eople, ommoneople, eople ikeus, ouldget ogether,make heatrebout urownproblems,iscusshem n the tage,ndthen itdown ndpropose new aw. ...] agreewith ou:we have omake urdesire ecome awI mustay: washappy.



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5. & 6. SantoAndre'sCity'sParticipatoryudgetparade, 0 September997.(Photo ourtesyfAugustoBoal)party asnot changed.Butpeople sometimes ive up their o-called ideals."Take themayor f Rio: he was a Communist. hen hewent to thePopulistParty PDT] and thenchanged again and went to the PFL, which is morepopulist till, nd on the extreme ightwing.The mayor hanged, ut eachof theparties emained aithfulothemselves, hatever heir aiths ere.SCHECHNER: Myinterpretationsslightlyifferent.think hatwith he col-lapseofthe SovietUnion,Marxismwas finisheds a "realproject." tmayre-main s an academicnterpretationfhistoricalrocess. he collapse fMarxismleft lotofpeoplewho wanted owerwithout sustainabledeology.Manyofthesepeople alwayswereopportunists-soheygravitateduickly o whateverideological osition hey elievedwouldbring hem o,orkeepthemn,power.In the199os nd for he foreseeableuture,hatdeologys capitalism-or venmorenakedly, he absence of an articulateddeology ltogether. apitalismsnowpracticed-fromWall Street oBeijing-is hardly worked-outdeology.tis "market-based,"hichmeans ragmatismndspeculationrerampant.BOAL: Yeah, we don't disagree. totally greewith whatyou're saying.Many people in theCommunist artynBrazil, heywere n theCommunistParty ecausetheywereaiming tgettinghepowerby being n thegovern-ment.And whenthey ost thatpossibilityhey hanged.They said,"Well, ifit'snot withtheCommunist arty,et tbe it with nother arty."When the BerlinWall fell, t createdmanymorewalls thanbefore. thinkthat Communism was bad for the countries t was in. But forsome othercountries,t created ts own ghost, he "red danger."The fearofCommu-nism, n Brazilat least,madecapitalismct lesscruel, essbrutal han treallywas. Once Communismwas no longeran obstacle,the capitalists evealedtheir ruecruelty. hey want more andmore.Theywant to concentrate llrichesn as fewhands, ockets eally,spossible.



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Augustooal 89SCHECHNER: I want o shiftheconversationbit.Theatre f theOp-pressed,bviously,s a title arallelo PauloFreire's edagogy ftheOp-pressed. hat sthe elationshipetween ourwork ndFreire's?Freireiedin1997, hortlyfterhisnterview.]BOAL: At thebaseofboth s truthhat oucannot eachfyoudon't earnfromhoseyouareteaching. nArgentineeacher ttered phrase loveverymuch.He said, I taught peasant ow to write hewordplough,'ndhetaught ehowto usethe lough."When teach, ometimeseople ellme,"Butyouteach he ame ech-niques "t'snot rue. am nventingewtechniques.ut t's rue lso hatteach heoldtechniqueshat learnedmanymany earsgo. I keepdoingthemwithmuch nthusiasm.nd hen eople ay, Butdon'tyou get ired

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90 Schechner/Chatterjeeofteaching hesametechnique?" say, No Because t's not thesamepeople Theatres a language orme. I amtalkingnEnglish. cannot ettired ftalkingnEnglish,ecause amtalking ithyou, amtalking ithyou.You aregivingmethings,nd amgivingoyou.Whethert sEnglishorPortugueserwhatever:e meet eople. o I never et ired fdoing heTheatre f heOppressed.SCHECHNER: Hisbookcame utbefore ours, ight?ou madeyour itlefrom is?BOAL:Ah,yes, otally.SCHECHNER: He wasempoweringtudentsndyouwereempoweringtheatre?BOAL:What foundnterestingnFreire asthat eemergedt a momentwhenwecould eallyosomethingnBrazil.We met he ther ay.WewereinOmaha ogether.t was he irstime had eenhim inceI96o-something.SCHECHNER: You neverworkedogether?BOAL: Neverworked ogether.he firstime hatwe sattogethert thesame able, o talk bout he ame hings as nOmaha.We hadnever onethat efore.We tried orememberhenwefirst et achother.We didnotexactlynow hemoment,ut twas round'6o/'6i.Atthat ime e wasdo-inghisPedagogy f theOppressedut was notyetdoingTheatre f theOppressed. was much nspiredyhis dea that teacherssomeonewholearns, hichsfantastic.It s the amenallrelations.he deaof heOppressedorme wasexactlythatmoment hendialogue ecomes monologue.ndialoguewopeopletalk.One talks,heotheristens;hen he theralks ndthefirstistens.t sthe ame nallrelations-between en ndwomen, ace ndrace, ountryandcountry.he ideal sdialogue. ut ntoomany ases eryoononepartbegins omonologue nd the other art s reduced o listener-only.necommands,heother beys. othFreire nd share his ommon oot.Hewrote isbook, nd was so fascinatedyhiswayofworkinghat beganworkingna similar ay.SCHECHNER: He'solder han ou, ight?BOAL: Nineyearslder, e's74nowand am65.SCHECHNER: Freirelsohad o eaveBrazil, ight?BOAL: He left eforeme. He dideverythingeforeme He went oEuropeandAfrica. e went llover atinAmerica,oo.

RichardchechnersTDR's Editor. e isUniversityrofessorndProfessorf er-formancetudiest Tisch choolf heArts/NYU,ndArtisticirectorfEastCoastArtists.is mostecentooksThe GrotowskiourcebookRoutledge,1997), hiche oeditedithisaWolford.Sudipto hatterjeeeceivedisPhDfromhe epartmentfPerformancetudiestTischchoolf he rts/NYU.e is scholar,ranslator,riter,erformer,nd ilm-maker. isresearchreasncludendian ndAsian erformance,olonialismnd he-atre,oliticalnd opularerformancenthe hirdWorld,ndmusic.

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