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Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashesin Ukraine - live updates
• 295 people on board plane that crashed in eastern Ukraine
• Bodies and wreckage found near town of Grabovo• Uncertainty over who has capability to shoot down flight
• Ukrainian, Russian and rebel leaders deny involvement
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Harriet Salem (@HarrietSalem) is in Grabovo for the Guardian.2m ago
Emergency workers at the site of a Malaysia Airlines crash in the settlement of Grabovo in the Donetsk region of
eastern Ukraine. Photograph: Maxim Zmeyev/Reuters
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7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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Crash site of #MH17 is just meters away from villagers houses field on fire body parts scattered everywhere #Ukraine
2:52 PM - 17 Jul 2014 Ukraine, Ukraine
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Flight MH17 was flying just 1,000ft above restricted airspace when it was
shot down, according to the European air traffic control body, per a
report from my colleague in London Dan Milmo.
Eurocontrol said Ukrainian authorities had barred aircraft
from ground level to 32,000 feet but the doomed aircraft
was cruising at 33,000 feet, still within range of
sophisticated ground-to-air weaponry, when it was hit. All
flights in eastern Ukraine have now been barred from the
area, Eurocontrol added.
In a statement last night the CAA said airlines had now
been told by the European air traffic control body to avoid
the region.The UK Department for Transport said airborne
flights were now being rerouted around the area where
MH17 crashed. "Flights already airborne are being routed
around the area by air traffic control in the region."
British Airways said it was not overflying Ukraine. "The
safety and security of our customers is always our top
priority. Our flights are not using Ukrainian airspace, with
the exception of our once-a-day service between Heathrow
and Kiev. We are keeping those services under review, but
Kiev is several hundred kilometres from the incident site."
A pilot for a major European airline told the Guardian:
"Ukraine is huge. If you were to close that airspace it would
be a long way round for a lot of airlines. If you were to close
it to high-level traffic it would be quite expensive in terms of
extra fuel and it would be quite disruptive."
You can read his full report here.
US to investigate in Ukraine
A US team will go to Ukraine "to determine what happened", vice-
president Joe Biden has said.
Biden said that Ukrainian president Petro Poroshenko has accepted US
assistance after the two spoke this morning, and after Biden offered his
condolences for the "tragic event".
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Ukraine's state security chief has accused two Russian military
intelligence officers of being involved in the MH17 crash, Reuters
reports, citing "intercepted phone conversations" between the officers.
SBU chief Valentyn Nalivaychenko said he based his
allegation on intercepts of phone conversations between
the two officers.
"Now you know who carried out this crime. We will do
everything for the Russian military who carried out this
crime to be punished," he told journalists.
The purported telephone intercepts have been posted to YouTube
(Russian), as have past recordings of alleged conversations between
rebels, some of whom are accused of being agents with Russian agents.
In the recordings, men nicknamed "Demon", "Mayor," and "Grek" panic
and curse as they realize they've shot down a passenger plane and
killed civilians, describing to each other the "bodies of women and
children".
The authenticity of the recordings, however, cannot be confirmed.
The Independent has tweeted a map showing reroutes of flights over
Europe.
Planes are avoiding Ukrainian airspace after the Malaysia
Airlines flight #MH17 crash i100.io/uzUMN0j
2:45 PM - 17 Jul 2014
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Summary
The day's developments so far:
• Malaysia Airlines MH17, carrying 295 people, crashed in east
Ukraine near the village of Grabovo. Debris and bodies are
scattered across several miles, and there are no presumed survivors.
• Separatist rebels and locals have begun tentative recovery
efforts, bringing fire engines to put out blazes. Locals say the plane
exploded in mid-air.
• Ukraine has traded accusations with rebels of shooting down
the plane , with President Petro Poroshenko saying he believed a
"terrorist act" was responsible, and an adviser to the interior minister
saying a Russian-built weapon shot down the aircraft. Both Kiev and a
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7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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separatist leader denied any involvement.
• US and Russian presidents Obama and Putin spoke by phone,
and the US has said it will work to determine what caused the crash and
whether any Americans were on board. A spokesman for the Kremlin
said the notion of any Russian hand was "stupidity".
• Delta, British Airways, Air France, Lufthansa, Aeroflot and other
airlines said they would avoid Ukrainian air space.
• Ukraine accused Russia of downing one of its fighter jets inside
Ukrainian territory earlier on Thursday.
A report summarizing the day's events so far has been filed by
Shaun Walker in Kiev, Harriet Salem in Grabovo, Tania Branigan in
Beijing, Alec Luhn in Moscow, and can be read in full here.
Malaysia has greeted news of the MH17 crash with disbelief and horror,
Tania Branigan reports from Beijing.
Distress at the loss was amplified by the sheer incredulity of
facing a second air disaster in five months.
The crash of flight MH17 on Thursday – another Boeing-
777 which suddenly lost contact with air traffic control with
hundreds on board – had immediate and chilling echoes. "I
am shocked by reports that an MH plane crashed. We are
launching an immediate investigation," Malaysia's prime
minister, Najib Razak, announced on Twitter.
The opposition leader, Anwar Ibrahim, said: "MH17 – ya
Allah – another tragedy. Awaiting details. Pray for safety."
Nothing encapsulated the shock and heartbreak of the
news more than the tweet from 18-year-old Malaysian
Maira Elizabeth Nari, whose father, Andrew, was chief
steward on MH370: "I am hoping it is not true. My God,
save Your children. #PrayForMH17."
Another message that she retweeted – from Malaysia's
badminton world champion, Lee Chong Wei – expressed
the bewilderment so many felt: "I don't think we are ready to
accept this so soon after the #MH370 tragedy."
You can read the full piece here.
Delta Air Lines will avoid Ukrainian air space, AFP reports, quoting
a statement from the US company.
Delta Air Lines said it was no longer sending flights through
Ukrainian airspace after the crash of a Malaysia Airlines
passenger plane in rebel-held eastern Ukraine.
"Out of an abundance of caution, Delta is not routing flights
through Ukrainian airspace and is monitoring the situation
involving Malaysia Airlines Flight 17," Delta said in a
statement.
"Everything rained down in bits and pieces", journalist Noah
Sneider tells CNN, quoting a witness who says the plane exploded in mid-
air.
Sneider says "the site is clearly controlled by the separatists" but that
Ukrainian military forces are not far, and that "bodies are splayed out"
over the field. "For the most part [all the debris] is burnt out and
charred."
He goes on to say that those who've come to help at the crash site are
mostly locals and rebels, and that "political persuasions are besides the
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kills 295 people
All today's stories
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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point" at the moment.
"I've never seen anything like it," one local rebel
fighter tells me. "You look down and see ears,
fingers, bones." #ukraine #mh17
2:06 PM - 17 Jul 2014
Noah Sneider
@NoahSneider
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Crowds in Kiev are leaving flowers at the Dutch embassy.
People bringing flowers and candles to the Embassy of the #Netherlands in #Kyiv - pic by Marichka Padalko
1:41 PM - 17 Jul 2014
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French flights have been told to avoid Ukrainian air space, and Air
France has joined the airliners making detours, AFP reports.
In France, a statement by junior transport minister Frederic
Cuvillier said he had advised "French airlines to avoid
Ukraine's air space as long as the reasons behind this
catastrophe are not known."
Air France said it had "taken the decision to no longer fly
over eastern Ukraine as soon as it heard of the event."
A spokeswoman for German flag carrier Lufthansa told AFP
it has decided to immediately make a "wide detour" around
the area, and added: "Our passenger's safety is our top
priority."
In London, a spokesman for the British Department for
Transport told AFP: "Flights already airborne are being
routed around the area by air traffic control in the region."
British Airways, Lufthansa, Turkish Airways, and Russian airlines
Transaero and Aeroflot have all said they will avoid some or all Ukrainian
air space, and US flights were warned in April to avoid the region.
Updated 1h 8m ago
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7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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Journalist Noah Sneider is also on the scene.
Locals say everything exploded in the air, fell in
pieces, both bodies and plane itself. Ppl thought
they were being bombed. #ukraine #mh17
1:52 PM - 17 Jul 2014
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@NoahSneider
Follow
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The epicenter of the MH17 crash is a grim scene of "charred
earth, twisted metal and body parts", Harriet Salem (@HarrietSalem)
reports from Grabovo for the Guardian.
The field next to the tiny rural hamlet where MH-17 plunged
to the ground was a scene of charred earth and twisted
metal as shocked locals milled around the scene.
Body parts belonging to the 280 passengers on board the
plane were tossed around the scene. The body of what
appeared to be a young woman was flung about 500
metres from the epicentre of the crash, while a
dismembered foot could be seen on the one road leading
through the village.
A strong smell of aviation fuel hung in the air as rebels
milled around to secure the area. Some 10 fire engines
remained on the scene after rushing there to extinguish the
many blazes caused by the crash.
One local resident, Alexander, says he was working in the
field a few hundred metres away from its final resting place
when he looked up. He feared the aircraft was going to fall
on top of him.
The house in which another local, also named Alexander,
and his relative called Olga, live in was just metres away
from the crash site. They said they thought the village was
being bombed after hearing two or three loud bangs before
the force of the impact threw them to the ground.
Vice-president Joe Biden has offered assistance to Ukrainian
president Petro Poroshenko, Reuters reports, adding that the US will
do what it can to to help determine the causes leading to the crash.
A vehicle-mounted, Russian-built Buk missile system may have
shot down MH17, according to western-based defence specialists
quoted by the Guardian's Ewen MacAskill (@EwenMacAskill).
Russian-backed rebels groups or Russian forces based in
eastern Ukraine have allegedly been shooting at planes
and helicopters with Buk missiles over the last week in an
attempt to achieve mastery of air space.
Shoulder-held Manpad missiles are popular with guerrilla
groups worldwide but the Malaysian Airlines plane would
have been flying above 10,000 metres, well beyond their
range. The Buk, which the Ukrainian interior minister, Anton
Gerashenko, blamed for the attack, has a range of 22,000
metres.
Igor Sutyagin, a Russian military specialist at the London-
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based Royal United Services Institute, said that he believed
that either Russians or Russian supported groups in
eastern Ukraine were responsible. He said they had been
shooting at Ukrainian aircraft over the last week.
Sutyagin, who monitors social media in the Ukraine, said a
Ukrainian rebel force had been spotted just hours earlier
with a Buk at Torez, a village close to the site where the
plane came down.
Jonathan Eyal, director of the Royal United Services
Institute, said it was not a matter of climbing aboard a van
and pressing a button. Firing a missile required knowledge
of how to use radar, how to lock onto a target and a host of
other steps beyond the average Kalashnikov carrying
rebel.
"If the plane was shot down, it could only have been shot
down by a state authority … The only country that has a
persistent policy of trying to prevent Ukrainians controlling
air space is Russia. Russia has taken an interest in
shooting down aircraft and forcing Ukraine to use ground
troops."
You can read the full analysis here.
Luggages at the crash site of MH17. Photograph: Dominique Faget/AFP/Getty
Images
Flames amongst the wreckages of MH17. Photograph: Dominique Faget/AFP/Getty
Images
Dozens of dead are scattered around a wide area, AFP reports
from the scene near Grabovo, including interviews with witnesses.
Dozens of severely mutilated corpses could be seen strewn
in the wreckage of a Malaysian airliner that crashed
Thursday in rebel-held eastern Ukraine but there were no
signs of survivors, an AFP reporter at the scene said.
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Debris was spread out for kilometres, and the tail of a
passenger jet lay in a corn field with the Malaysian Airlines
insignia on it, while insurgent fighters and several fire
trucks were seen nearby the crash site.
"I had just gone to sleep at … when I heard an enormous
bang," Katya, 64, told AFP. "It was like an earthquake."
Her daughter Natalya, 36, said that she had fled to safety
when the sound of the explosion rumbled overhead. "I took
my baby and went and hid in the basement," she said.
There was no sign of any rescue workers.
President Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov has called
allegations that Russia was involved in the downing of MH17
"stupidity", Alec Luhn (@ASLuhn) reports for the Guardian.
Reached by the Guardian on Thursday evening, president
Vladimir Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov called
allegations that Russia had been involved in the downing of
MH17 “stupidity”.
Ukraine's foreign ministry had reportedly said it would
present evidence that Russia was involved in the crash.
Peskov said that the Kremlin would not make a further
statement on the tragedy because “no one knows” who is
responsible.
Asked about the possibility of further US sanctions in light
of this bloody development in the conflict in eastern
Ukraine, Peskov said he could not rule it out.
“The United States has recently been conducting a very
non-constructive policy, and their actions are very
unpredictable,” he said.
A site attributed to a separatist leader suggests rebels may have
shot down MH17, but it has since been taken down and details remain
unclear.
It features a comment saying "We just downed an An-26 near Torez. It's
down somewhere near Progress mine," which suggests rebel forces may
have believed the passenger jet to be a Ukrainian military transport
plane.
The page, on the VKontakte social network, is attributed to Igor Girkin,
who goes by the nom de guerre Strelkov and is the self-proclaimed
military commander of the rebels. The page has been posting for rebels
affiliated with Strelkov for weeks, and has some 130,000 followers.
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7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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A screengrab from a VKontakte page attributed to Igor Girkin, known as Strelkov
among east Ukrainian rebels. Photograph: /VKontakte
The post continues "We had warned them not to fly in 'our sky'" and says
"here is video confirmation of the "downed little bird." The linked video is
the same as that used in media reports on the crash.
The post also says "a residential sector was not caught" and "Innocent
people were not harmed."
Rebels have previously shot down an An-26 jet on 14 June, killing 49
Ukrainian military servicemen.
President Obama says the US is seeking "to determine whether
there were American citizens onboard", Paul Lewis reports, quoting
the president:
"That is our priority, and I've directed my national security
team to stay in close contact with the Ukrainian
government.
The United States will offer any assistance we can to help
determine what happened and why. As a country our
thoughts and prayers are with all the families of the
passengers, wherever they call home."
British officials will meet to discuss the MH17 crash, "including
the possibility that British nationals were on board". My colleague
in London Dan Sabbagh sends the statement from Downing Street:
British officials were due to meet this evening to take stock
of the Malaysian air disaster, including the possibility that
British nationals were on board. It is likely that meeting will
be largely practical and an assessment of what is known,
as opposed to any ministerial political action.
David Cameron has joined the chorus of world leaders reacting to the
crash.
I'm shocked and saddened by the Malaysian air disaster.
Officials from across Whitehall are meeting to establish the
facts.
— David Cameron (@David_Cameron) July 17, 2014
Ukrainian President Poroshenko believes a "terrorist act" caused
the MH17 crash, Reuters reports, quoting his press secretary.
"Poroshenko thinks this of the plane that was brought
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down: it is not an incident, not a catastrophe, but a terrorist
act," Svatoslav Tsegolko said
Ukrainian officials and rebels have accused each other of having played
a part in the crash. Poroshenko categorically denies Ukrainian military
action, and self-proclaimed rebel leader Aleksandr Borodai also denies
involvement.
A part of the wreckage of MH17. Photograph: Maxim Zmeyev/Reuters
A man at the crash site. Photograph: Maxim Zmeyev/Reuters
Wreckage of MH17. Photograph: Dominique Faget/AFP/Getty Images
The New York Times' Sabrina Tavernise has arrived at the MH17 crash:
"Many of the bodies were still in their seat belts and still
attached to pieces of the plane." @stavernise at the scene
of the #MH17 crash.
— New York Times World (@nytimesworld) July 17,
2014
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President Obama and President Putin discussed the crash of
MH17 during a call this morning, as well as steps Russia could take to
de-escalate the crisis in east Ukraine. The statement reads in part:
President Obama spoke with Russian President Putin today
about the situation in Ukraine and the additional sanctions
… President Obama also reiterated his concerns regarding
the buildup of Russian forces near the Ukrainian border.
President Obama called on President Putin to take
concrete steps to de-escalate the situation, including to
press separatists to agree to a cease-fire, support a
roadmap for negotiations, halt the flow of fighters and
weapons into Ukraine, obtain the release of all hostages
still held by the separatists, and work to establish an
effective OSCE border-monitoring mechanism.
During the call, President Putin noted the early reports of a
downed passenger jet near the Russia-Ukraine border.
Sanctions put in place yesterday were ordered by the US due to
perceived support of separatist rebels from Russia.
Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte is returning to the Netherlands,
and has told Ukraine's president he is "deeply shocked". The Guardian's
Europe editor Ian Traynor reports:
The Boeing 777 from Malaysian Airlines lifting off from
Schiphol airport’s terminal 3 outside Amsterdam also had a
Dutch airline flight number from KLM, KL4103.
The Dutch airline had no information on the disaster. The
Malaysian Airlines desk at terminal three was closed on
Thursday night.
At least 30 Dutch-speaking passengers were on the plane,
according to two travel agencies which sold tickets for the
flight. According to Dutch newspaper websites, several
Dutch passports were found near the scene of the crash.
Lufthansa announced on Thursday evening that it was
immediately ordering its aircraft to avoid the skies over
eastern Ukraine.
The Dutch prime minister, Mark Rutte, talked by telephone
to Ukraine’s President Petro Poroshenko. “I am deeply
shocked by the tragic news about the crash of flight MH17
of Malaysian Airlines from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur
over Ukrainian territory.” Rutte said. “A lot is still unclear
about the facts, circumstances and passengers.”
British Airways has joined the growing list of airliners avoiding
Ukrainian airspace, as has Turkish Airlines and Russia's Aeroflot.
British Airways: "Our flights are not using Ukrainian
airspace" - spokeswoman
12:41 PM - 17 Jul 2014
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Malaysia Airlines has released a statement, saying more details will
follow:
2h 38m ago
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7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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Malaysia Airlines confirms it received notification from
Ukrainian ATC that it had lost contact with flight MH17 at
14.15 (GMT) at 30km from Tamak waypoint, approximately
50km from the Russia-Ukraine border.
Flight MH17 operated on a Boeing 777 departed
Amsterdam at 12.15pm (Amsterdam local time) and was
estimated to arrive at Kuala Lumpur International Airport at
6.10am (Malaysia local time) the next day.
The flight was carrying 280 passengers and 15 crew
onboard.
The US "cannot confirm any Americans on board", says State
Department spokesperson Jen Psaki, who refused to confirm any reports
of Americans among the passengers of MH17.
Speaking to reporters during a press briefing, she said the US has
learned from reports in time with the public, and is working "in close
contact" with Kiev.
"We have seen the same reports you have at this point. We don't have
any confirmed about casualties or details. We're closely monitoring the
situation. We're seeking additional information and are in close contact
with Ukrainian authorities.
"We don't have any additional details at this point about any American
citizens. We're of course looking for more information … and we will
make [information] available as soon as we have it.
"I don't want to speculate on who's to blame or the causes – we don't
have the information at this point."
"We don't have our own confirmation of details. I can't predict for you if or
when we will."
Asked about whether the arms Russia is accused of supplying to rebels,
and whether those types of weapons would are sophisticated enough to
down a plane under the circumstances of the crash, Psaki said she
inquire with officials.
At least 22 bodies at wreck site, according to an AP journalist, as
more verified images come through the wires agencies.
Wreckage of MH17. Photograph: Dominique Faget/AFP/Getty Images
ABC's Moscow correspondent Kiri Radia relays part of a statement from
Ukraine's foreign ministry.
More from Ukraine's Foreign Ministry: "Ukraine will present
the evidence of Russian military involvement into the
Boeing crash."
— Kirit Radia (@KiritRadia) July 17, 2014
2h 53m ago
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Russian airline Transaero will avoid Ukrainian airspace , Reuters
reports, joining Lufthansa an airliner reacting to news of thecrash.
"The airline Transaero decided to carry out all flights from
this moment through third countries, avoiding the airspace
of Ukraine," the company said in a statement, adding that
flights had already been avoiding eastern Ukrainian
territories.
Malaysian foreign ministry is "working closely" with Russian and
Ukrainian governments, deputy foreign minister Hamzah Zainuddin
has told Malaysian news agency Bernama, as Tania Branigan relays
from Beijing.
Malaysian prime minister Najim Razak has tweeted that reports "shocked"
him: "I am shocked by reports than an MH plane crashed. We are
launching an immediate investigation."
Verified photos from a Reuters photographer are starting to come in from
Grabovo.
The site of a Malaysia Airlines Boeing 777 plane crash in the settlement of Grabovo
in the Donetsk region. Photograph: Maxim Zmeyev/Reuters
My colleague Dan Milmo in London reports that it has been normal
practice for airlines to fly over conflict zones since the Ukraine conflict
began. He interviewed a pilot for a major European airline:
"We would often avoid areas where there is air-to-air
conflict, but we flew over Iraq and Afghanistan when the
British and US armed forces were delpoyed there, because
only one side was using military jets."
Explaining why airlines fly over conflict zones where groups
might be in possession of ground-to-air missiles, the pilot
said: "There will be weapons based on the ground when
you are at 30,000 feet, but that is far up in the air. There
are not many missile systems that can be so accurate."
His comments suggest that assumptions about weapons capabilities on
the ground will have to be reevaluated, pending investigation of the
crash.
Lufthansa airlines will avoid east Ukrainian airspace immediately,
Reuters snaps
In April, US flights were warned not to fly over conflict-ridden regions of
eastern Ukraine by the FAA earlier this year.
The White House has confirmed that Obama and Putin spoke on
3h 10m ago
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Updated 3h 23m ago
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3h 35m ago
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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the phone this morning to discuss new US sanctions, Paul Lews reports,
but did not say whether the call occurred before or after reports of the
crash emerged.
The Kremlin issued the following statement:
"The Russian leader informed the US president about information
received just before the telephone call from aviation services about the
crash of a Malaysian plane over Ukrainian territory."
Russian president Vladimir Putin has released a statement via the
Kremlin website (Russian). It reads:
Vladimir Putin has expressed his deepest condolences to
Prime Minister Najib Razak of Malaysia with regard to the
accident in Ukrainian territory of a Malaysian Airlines
passenger aircraft, resulting in numerous casualties.
The Russian head of state asked him to convey his
sincerest words of sympathy and support to families and
friends of the victims.
We have a quick video report on the crash, with details as they currently
stand.
MH17 crash in eastern Ukraine.
Russia's UN envoy has denied any involvement, AFP reports.
"We didn't do it," Russian Ambassador Vitaly Churkin told
reporters at UN headquarters in New York.
Russian news outlet RIA Novosti reported that President Vladimir Putin
has spoken with US President Barack Obama, but the US has not
confirmed any such conversation.
Paul Lewis reports:
Barack Obama, who has just landed in Delaware, has been
briefed about the airliner crash. His spokesman, Josh
Earnest, told reporters on board Air Force One that the
president had instructed his staff to keep him updated and
make contact with senior Ukrainian officials.
Reuters, on the scene, has tweeted a photo of the crash site near
Grabovo.
The site of a Malaysia Airlines plane crash in the
settlement of Grabovo in Donetsk region:
http://t.co/yVWeqntSaK pic.twitter.com/guBJ5ppeRy
— Reuters Top News (@Reuters) July 17, 2014
Updated 3h 35m ago
3h 37m ago
3h 40m ago
3h 42m ago
3h 45m ago
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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Aleksandr Borodai, the leader of the self-declared Donetsk People's
Republic, has publicly denied rebel involvement in the crash, Alec Luhn
reports.
Borodai tweeted (Russian) that the rebels were not
involved in the attack. "According to initial information, the
plane was shot down by Ukrainian air defence. The rebels
don't have weapons with which they could shoot down a
plane at 10,000 metres"
But the Donetsk People's Republic said in June its forces
had captured Buk missiles from a Ukrainian military base,
Itar-Tass news agency reported. The Buk missile has a
range of 18,000 metres, according to some accounts.
The White House is in contact with Ukrainian officials, according to
Reuters.
Paul Lewis in Washington, has comments from a senior US official on
rebels' weapon capabilities.
On Wednesday, a senior official from Barack Obama's
administration cited the shooting down of a Ukrainian jet
earlier this week as evidence of Russia's escalating
involvement in the conflict. The official, speaking on the
condition of anonymity, suggested that the sophisticated
weaponry that would have been required to down the
transport jet, which was flying at high-altitude, on Monday,
was likely to have been supplied across the Russian
border.
Their full comments are below:
"Even in the face of all of this diplomacy that has been
going on, and very high level efforts by us, and key
members of the European Union - notably France,
Germany and the UK - over the the past month the flow of
heavy weapons and support for separatists from Russia
has actually increased.
"You will have seen on social media over the last week
convoys of Russian tanks, armoured personnel carriers,
infantry combat vehicles, grad rocket launchers, howitzers,
self-propelled mortars, flowing into Ukraine. On 14 July the
Ukrainian's lost an AN-26 transport jet which was shot down
from an altitude of 21,000 feet with eight crew onboard.
And only very sophisticated weapons systems would be
able to reach this height."
Bodies and wreckage found near Grabovo
Dozens of bodies and broken pieces of wing with MH17 colors
have been found near the town of Grabovo, according to a Reuters
correspondent.
Dozens of bodies were scattered around the smouldering
wreckage of a passenger jet that crashed in eastern
Ukraine on Thursday, a Reuters reporter said.
An emergency services rescue worker said at least 100
bodies had so far been found at the scene, near the village
of Grabovo, and that debris from the wreckage was
scattered across an area up to about 15km (nine miles) in
diameter.
Broken pieces of the wings were marked with blue and red
paint – the same colours as the emblem of the Malaysian
airline which lost track of a flight from Amsterdam to Kuala
Lumpur that was carrying almost 300 people.
3h 47m ago
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7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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President Poroshenko denies any Ukrainian military involvement,
AP and Reuters report, responding to an accusation made by Aleksandr
Borodai, a leader of the separatist camp.
"This is the third event in the last few days following An-26 and SU-25
planes being brought down. We do not exclude that this plane was also
shot down and we stress that the armed forces of Ukraine did not carry
out any action to destroy targets in the air," the press service said.
Earlier Thursday, Kiev accused Russia of involvement in downing
aircraft.
Like Poroshenko, Malaysia's prime minister says he is launching an
immediate probe into the reported crash.
Reuters is on the ground and has a correspondent near the wreck site.
#BREAKING: Reuters correspondent on the scene in
Eastern Ukraine sees burning wreckage of air plane,
bodies on ground
— Reuters World (@ReutersWorld) July 17, 2014
Rebels claim not to have the capabilities to shoot down the
Malaysia flight, Alec Luhn reports per Interfax's story.
Interfax news agency has quoted leaders of the self-
declared Donetsk people's republic denying that the rebels
shot down the Malaysian airlines plane. A reported member
of the republic's security council said the rebels only have
weapons able to shoot down a plane at 3,000 metres and
blamed Ukrainian military forces for the attack. (The plane
was reportedly flying at 10,000 metres).
But officials from Ukraine's defence ministry and national
security council said the rebels have Buk surface-to-air
missiles able to shoot down planes at such elevations and
suggested one was used in the attack.
Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko called for the creation of a
commission to investigate the accident.
"This is the third tragic incident in recent days after
Ukrainian military An-26 and Su-25 jets were shot down
from Russian territory. We don't rule out that this plane was
also shot down, and we stress that the Ukrainian military
didn't take any actions to destroy targets in the air," he
said.
Separatist rebels in east Ukraine deny any involvement to Russian
news agency Interfax, relays the New York Times' former Moscow
correspondent Ellen Barry.
Per Interfax: Pro-Russian militia leaders deny
involvement. "We simply do not have such air
defense systems," MANPADs reach only 4000m.
10:56 AM - 17 Jul 2014
Ellen Barry
@EllenBarryNYT
Follow
231 RETWEETS 17 FAVORITES
4h 4m ago
Updated 3h 59m ago
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4h 13m ago
Updated 4h 8m ago
4h 18m ago
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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Malaysia's defence and acting transport minister Hishammuddin Hussein
says his office will investigate via his Twitter feed:
@HishammuddinH2O @tenoq Ukr. Government reported the plane
was shot down:(
Daniela N. @Nessie43
No comfirmation it was shot down! Our military
have been instructed 2 get on it! “@Nessie43:
@tenoq Ukr Gov report plane was shot down
10:55 AM - 17 Jul 2014
Hishammuddin Hussein
@HishammuddinH2O
Follow
2,255 RETWEETS 233 FAVORITES
4h
*Correction: It is now Liow Tiong Lai, who is currently in Beijing,
according to Malaysia's Bernama news agency.
Hishammuddin Hussein has urged calm.
MH17-keep calm.Presently in constant touch wit PM
@NajibRazak Foreign Min @Anifah_myg &
Transport Min@liowtionglai working closely with me.
11:30 AM - 17 Jul 2014
Hishammuddin Hussein
@HishammuddinH2O
Follow
751 RETWEETS 193 FAVORITES
Anton Gerashchenko, an adviser to Ukraine's interior minister, has
written on Facebook (Russian) that "280 passengers and 15 members
have died" in the crash, and that the plane was last recorded flying at
10,000 meters.
He links to an unverified video showing smoke rising in eastern Ukraine,
and accuses militants of shooting down the plane: "A civilian airliner
travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur has just been shot down by a
Buk anti-aircraft system."
Malaysia Airlines has tweeted that it lost contact with MH17, as reported
by Reuters.
Malaysia Airlines has lost contact of MH17 from
Amsterdam. The last known position was over Ukrainian
airspace. More details to follow.
— Malaysia Airlines (@MAS) July 17, 2014
Malaysia Airlines flight #MH17 just before it disappeared
over Ukraine. pic.twitter.com/xvDHsEQtkg
— Flightradar24 (@flightradar24) July 17, 2014
A passenger jet belonging to Malaysia Airlines reportedly crashed in
eastern Ukraine in an area where separatist rebels have been engaging
4h 25m ago
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7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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Ukrainian Army forces in recent weeks.
The plane, travelling from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur, apparently had
295 people on board and crashed near the town of Snezhnoe, according
to a report from Interfax which could not immediately be confirmed.
A source in the Russian aviation industry told Reuters that the plane did
not enter Russian airspace when expected and had indeed crashed in
eastern Ukraine. Quoting an aviation source, Reuters also reported that
burning wreckage was found.
In recent days the Ukrainian air force has lost planes in the area after
they have been shot down by rebels. Earlier on Thursday, Ukraine
accused Russia of downing one of its fighter jets inside Ukrainian
territory.
Updated 3h 49m ago
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All comments Staff replies Guardian picks
12 PEOPLE, 15 COMMENTS
Show 12 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 9:26pm
ParticularCrab
BBC already reporting crash site to be much nearer to the Russian boarder thanFlightradar24 picture shows.
17 July 2014 5:25pm
54
Spaldy ParticularCrab
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17 July 2014 5:38pm
Alex Weber Alex Weber
Sorry 21,000 not 25,000. Same principles apply. Any weapon that canshoot down a plane at 21,000 is not a shoulder MANPAD, but the sametype of weapon that can target at 33,000.
17 July 2014 6:07pm
18
bbano Alex Weber
they claimed to have captured BUK missiles in June.
17 July 2014 6:11pm
28
7 PEOPLE, 8 COMMENTS
DoesNotComputer
Humanity is sloppy.
17 July 2014 5:25pm
31
Plataea DoesNotComputer
17 July 2014 5:58pm
4
Share
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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Show 5 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:47pm
Correct & one group of humanity had the weapons (& inclination) to shootdown an airliner clearly crossing from Ukraine airspace into Russianairspace & flying at around 10,000 meters - & clearly not landing anywherenear where it was shoot down.
userid DoesNotComputer
Humanity is sloppy
Especially in cases when cynically making pretexts to continue wars. Abstracting of booing it's clear that shooting down a civil plane is beneficial toAnti Terrorist Operation by Kiev but not to the rebels. Think twice world is more complex than seems.
Anyway this is a great tragedy, and EU and US must insist on ceasefireinstead of pushing Kiev to action.
17 July 2014 6:39pm
37
Alex Weber userid
The rebels said they shot down a military plane at the same time this plane
17 July 2014 6:48pm
43
9 PEOPLE, 11 COMMENTS
Show 8 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 9:08pm
ClaphamWolves
Shocking stuff.
17 July 2014 5:25pm
100
Vatslav Rente ClaphamWolves
July 8 State Air Service of Ukraine has banned flights over the Donbas. Whyinternational airline flight allowed into the war zone? Who needed this tragedy? Kiev and Washington?
17 July 2014 6:11pm
91
Dmitry Naumenko Vatslav Rente
See above.
Dan Milmo in London reports that it has been normal practice for airlines tofly over conflict zones since the Ukraine conflict began. He interviewed apilot for a major European airline:
"We would often avoid areas where there is air-to-air conflict, but we flewover Iraq and Afghanistan when the British and US armed forces weredelpoyed there, because only one side was using military jets."
Explaining why airlines fly over conflict zones where groups might be inpossession of ground-to-air missiles, the pilot said: "There will be weaponsbased on the ground when you are at 30,000 feet, but that is far up in theair. There are not many missile systems that can be so accurate."
17 July 2014 6:17pm
28
PotholeKid Vatslav Rente
This comment was removed by a moderator because it didn't abide by our
17 July 2014 6:39pm
19 PEOPLE, 25 COMMENTS
Doug Salzmann
Why was a passenger plane flying through airspace that has been the scene, fordays, of aerial bombardment of the DPR resistance and local civilians, and of returnfire by the resistance that has already downed multiple Ukrainian military aircraft?
17 July 2014 5:26pm
185
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Show 22 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:53pm
PaperEater Doug Salzmann
Victim blaming much?
17 July 2014 5:34pm
162
Clayton Brooks PaperEater
seems more like an observation to me, but i suppose everything is open tointerpretation these days.
17 July 2014 5:39pm
89
Alex Weber Doug Salzmann
Because warplanes don't fly at anywhere near 33,000 feet, except for
17 July 2014 5:39pm
154
5 PEOPLE, 6 COMMENTS
Show 3 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 9:21pm
Menotti
Christ on a bike.
17 July 2014 5:27pm
29
HansVonDerHeyde Menotti
I'm sorry for the relatives of the passengers.But , how can you fly an airplane in a zone where jets do bombardmentsand get shot down. Didn't the Pilot knew of the Deadly conflict going on?!?!Why didn't the Control Towers told him ?!?!
17 July 2014 7:01pm
17
Adrian Eff Menotti
Strap back and fish eggs
17 July 2014 7:03pm
1
DrCJ Menotti
Yes indeed. What kind of knob routes an aircraft over a war-zone inhabited
17 July 2014 8:14pm
4
15 PEOPLE, 20 COMMENTS
CharlesII
Maybe comments shouldn't be on here?
17 July 2014 5:27pm
157
Menotti CharlesII
Quite; news agencies and governments have no idea what's happening.Opening this up to the PutinBots with their 8 bajillion recommends and theAnti-American rabble only adds to the net amount of disdain for humanitythis story can generate.
17 July 2014 5:31pm
277
Spacedone CharlesII
I was going to disagree and then I read Beanfield85's idiocy.
17 July 2014 5:31pm
18
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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Show 17 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:39pm
ColdPenguin Menotti
Opening this up to the PutinBots
17 July 2014 5:34pm
58
Euronymous
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17 July 2014 5:28pm
Beanfield85
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17 July 2014 5:28pm
helpmejebus
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17 July 2014 5:29pm
3 PEOPLE, 3 COMMENTS
Trudi Goater
If nothing else brings them to their senses then this should surely!!! An immediatecease fire should be called at once and all this crap must stop
17 July 2014 5:29pm
64
Ishowerdaily Trudi Goater
You'd hope so wouldn't you? Unfortunately, for me, it feels the closest toWW3 since 1984.
I don't despair of humanity - just the fools, crooks and charlatans we allowto lead us into inhumanity.
17 July 2014 5:45pm
101
Peter Mundy Ishowerdaily
Couldn't agree more, mate. Couldn't agree more.
17 July 2014 7:07pm
11
helpmejebus
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17 July 2014 5:30pm
16 PEOPLE, 21 COMMENTS
ColdPenguin
It is interesting to see how the Telegraph are reporting this with lots of pictures ofRussian missiles and bellicose statements from a variety of their journalists who, likeeveryone at present know nothing.
It gives an insight into how a regional event was blown up into WW1 by interestedparties in 1914.
17 July 2014 5:30pm
164
edwardrice ColdPenguin
17 July 2014 5:43pm
59
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
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Show 18 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:47pm
Yeah, Russia is being blamed already.
vazelas99 ColdPenguin
They go on to say:
17.03 It's thought that the plane was shot down by a BUKsurface-to-air missile.
Forgetting to mention that it is Kiev making that claim, or else the ycan't blameit to the rebels that only have manpads...
17 July 2014 5:46pm
31
hamatik edwardrice
Well it probably was them to be fair. Probably.
17 July 2014 5:49pm
15
8 PEOPLE, 8 COMMENTS
Show 5 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:43pm
SamDecker
Talk about getting caught in the crossfire. Shocking.
17 July 2014 5:30pm
12
DaveGunner SamDecker
Truly tragic! Lost of innocent lives again ... Malaysian Airlines must becursed for such tragic circumstance to fall on its lap again.
I hope there'll be swift justice meted out on the perpetrators of such heinouscrimes!
17 July 2014 5:45pm
24
bootboys DaveGunner
So apparently we know, or rather you know, that it wasn't a mechanicalfailure or anything of that nature, the "perpetrators" did it.
That's why comments shouldn't be open on a topic like this - all the fuckwitsand loons come out with their unsubstantiated theories.
17 July 2014 6:03pm
14
eversley2013 DaveGunner
Exactly, whoever did this should be in the dock and if found guilty
17 July 2014 6:09pm
1
umut gezer
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17 July 2014 5:31pm
8 PEOPLE, 8 COMMENTS
Trader SeerStrategy
Flying commercial aircraft over war zone is not a smart idea.
It also might be some terrorists on board
17 July 2014 5:31pm
50
umut gezer Trader SeerStrategy
17 July 2014 5:34pm
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live 23/32
Show 5 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:19pm
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17 July 2014 5:34pm
harrowperson Trader SeerStrategy
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17 July 2014 5:49pm
Aleksandr Romanovich Podgaets Trader SeerStrategy
Let's hope it will a wake up call for both gangs, finally sit down and talk.
17 July 2014 6:04pm
8
3 PEOPLE, 3 COMMENTS
Trudi Goater
If this doesn't bring these idiots to their senses nothing will! An immediate cease fireshould be declared straight away! These morons need to stop now RIP poor people
17 July 2014 5:32pm
49
pagon007 Trudi Goater
Ukraine's defense minister said that the past truce was "tactical move toregroup the army" .. After such words and actions during the truce, therebels will hardly believe Kiev
17 July 2014 8:25pm
6
Capleton Trudi Goater
Come on,Identical Planes,of the same Airline within a few months ?Immediately assumed to have been shot down ?Anyone travelling to Dubai crosses here,and the Iran/Iraq border.Buckle up.
17 July 2014 9:08pm
GhostWiper
Tragic. Hopefully nothing sinister has happened but it’s a sad old world whenbecause of the airline and the place it crashed we immediately assume the worst.
17 July 2014 5:33pm
19
mike65ie
Just what we need - a blog full of "bots" from both sides posting propaganda.
17 July 2014 5:33pm
47
8 PEOPLE, 9 COMMENTS
Martynas Sv
Nor Ukrainians nor separatists didnt have a weapon to get down this plane in thataltitude, so it must be russian work.
17 July 2014 5:33pm
15
edwardrice Martynas Sv
Why would Russia shot down a passenger jet. Did Russia think it was ahigh level bomber about to attack? Please explain.
17 July 2014 5:47pm
68
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Show 6 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:56pm
Menotti edwardrice
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17 July 2014 6:02pm
lexnex Martynas Sv
Why would Russia do it? It would not benefit neither politically, nor
17 July 2014 6:04pm
17
3 PEOPLE, 3 COMMENTS
FieldingGray
I suppose it's too much to hope that the tin foil hat brigade won't muddy the waterswith their usual ridiculous talk of False Flag ops?
Yeah, I always was a naive optimist....
17 July 2014 5:33pm
39
Adkult FieldingGray
Yeah, well, sorry, you should always keep your options open. Dumb nottoo. Neither the east or west are angels. Just remember the Reichstag firein 1933. Seems some people never learn their lessons. It's one of the oldesttricks in the book.
17 July 2014 7:32pm
9
Capleton FieldingGray
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17 July 2014 9:10pm
12 PEOPLE, 13 COMMENTS
Show 10 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 9:10pm
Miamijim
If Russia shot this plane down there will be hell to pay.
17 July 2014 5:33pm
27
bobble07 Miamijim
Well not hard to see your line of thinking
But if Ukraine shot it down then it there will still be hell to pay for Russiaright..?
17 July 2014 5:36pm
107
Menotti Miamijim
Respectfully I disagree. There should be hell to pay, but there won't; 300lives are nowt to those who think in terms of geopolitics.
17 July 2014 5:36pm
41
umut gezer Miamijim
if Ukraine did?
17 July 2014 5:38pm
17
3 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live 25/32
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 6:03pm
PaperEater
Before people jump to conclusions and kick off world war 3 let's hope that no actionsare taken before all the facts are known. It really could have been a crash with nooutside interference.
17 July 2014 5:34pm
48
NotWithoutMyMonkey PaperEater
Agreed. Let's give the families of those lost time to grief and the relevantimpartial bodies to determine the cause.
17 July 2014 5:42pm
13
NotWithoutMyMonkey NotWithoutMyMonkey
grieve, not grief.
If impartial bodies are involved in determining the cause then the truth willcome to light soon enough. Either way, were this civilian plane shot down byeither side (or a third party) this constitutes a serious escalation of thesetension with unimaginable ramifications.
17 July 2014 5:46pm
5
SingaporeSlim PaperEater
But unlikely as planes don't go down in cruise very often
17 July 2014 5:58pm
4
deezer
Jesus. RIP.
17 July 2014 5:34pm
16
2 PEOPLE, 2 COMMENTS
Jamesread
Trigger-happy morons (from whichever side).
17 July 2014 5:35pm
13
MuadDibFremen Jamesread
Agreed, RIP.
17 July 2014 7:24pm
ovacik777
DON'T JUMP THE GUN, GET FACTS,?????
17 July 2014 5:35pm
19
10 PEOPLE, 10 COMMENTS
Nolens
Reports say flight MH17 was brought down by an anti aircraft missile, most probablyby Russian backed rebels. If this is the case, it will cause a very, very serious crisisbetween the West and Russia. I hope a full transparant investigation will be launchedthat will not be blocked by the Russians. My sincere condolences to all those whohave lost loved ones in this tragedy.
17 July 2014 5:36pm
95
umut gezer Nolens
it is in Ukraine territory, so if there is any bias report on crash it will come
17 July 2014 5:39pm
70
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Show 7 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:55pm
it is in Ukraine territory, so if there is any bias report on crash it will comeonly from Americans.
SamDecker umut gezer
You lot keep saying it's not Ukraine territory but NovoRussia. You can't haveit both ways. Make up your minds.
17 July 2014 5:48pm
64
scipio16 umut gezer
irony?
17 July 2014 5:54pm
5
MalenkyMuk
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17 July 2014 5:37pm
12 PEOPLE, 14 COMMENTS
Show 11 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:35pm
Awaba
Is history repeating itself? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
"Korean Air Lines Flight 007 (also known as KAL007 and KE007) was a scheduledKorean Air Lines flight from New York City to Seoul via Anchorage. On September 1,1983, the airliner serving the flight was shot down by a Soviet Su-15 interceptor nearMoneron Island, west of Sakhalin Island, in the East Sea. The interceptor's pilot wasMajor Gennadi Osipovich. All 269 passengers and crew aboard were killed, includingLawrence McDonald, representative from Georgia in the United States House ofRepresentatives. The aircraft was en route from Anchorage to Seoul when it flewthrough prohibited Soviet airspace around the time of a U.S. reconnaissancemission.
The Soviet Union initially denied knowledge of the incident, but later admitted theshootdown, claiming that the aircraft was on a spy mission."
17 July 2014 5:37pm
26
umut gezer Awaba
are you forgetting Iranian plane shot down by the US?
17 July 2014 5:39pm
103
Zain Tariq umut gezer
Absolutely correct! 290 deaths
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
17 July 2014 5:44pm
39
Alexander Pankov Awaba
What about this event? When Ukrainians shot down a Russian plane??? Or
17 July 2014 5:50pm
33
Lee Richard
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17 July 2014 5:37pm
4 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
1Essex 53
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live 27/32
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 7:49pm
1Essex
Whenever I've flown on international flights that cross over areas of the globe wherefighting is taking place I've never been concerned as I always imagined that 33,000feet would be high enough to avoid things like this.
Frightening that this is apparently incorrect, and it seems like more careful routing offlights is required.
17 July 2014 5:37pm
53
healey 1Essex
I always imagined that 33,000 feet would be high enough to avoidthings like this.
Not a chance. There's a reason why the old SR-71 Blackbird cruised atMach 3 at an altitude of 85,000ft.
17 July 2014 5:55pm
12
rh123 healey
Yep. The necessary lack of air resistance to do Mach 3?
17 July 2014 6:19pm
12
healey rh123
Well yes, but it did both to avoid interception, whereas the U2 did not.
17 July 2014 6:42pm
4 PEOPLE, 4 COMMENTS
365days
Now where have I...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
17 July 2014 5:38pm
18
rockyrex 365days
I remember the Korean airliner incident. In the UK that evening, the BBCnews opened with the BBC Evesham picture.
This suggests that TV was about to switch to the Emergency BroadcastingService which (in the event of nuclear war) would have taken over allbroadcasting from the BBC bunker at Wood Norton near Evesham.
Within seconds it went back to the normal picture, with a rattled newsreaderreporting the story.
Things were very close that day.
17 July 2014 5:46pm
15
kgbgb 365days
Now where have I... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Lines_Flight_007
Now where have I...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia_Airlines_Flight_1812
17 July 2014 6:28pm
8
hertsred 365days
You only have to go back to 2001 when the Ukrainian military shot down aRussian airliner with 78 people on board, claimed it was an accident.
17 July 2014 8:22pm
6
unknownprogrammer
17 July 2014 5:38pm
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live 28/32
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17 July 2014 5:38pm
Voltaire21
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17 July 2014 5:38pm
lexnex
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17 July 2014 5:38pm
GuyCybershy
"The official, speaking on the condition of anonymity"
How often have we heard this phrase recently?
17 July 2014 5:39pm
22
5 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:51pm
totis
What a tragedy. The worst thing is that both sides will blame each other, thesmoking gun will never be found, and the families of the deceased will never knowwho committed this dreadful crime.
17 July 2014 5:40pm
17
bootboys totis
What a tragedy. The worst thing is that both sides will blameeach other, the smoking gun will never be found, and the familiesof the deceased will never know who committed this dreadfulcrime.
If indeed a crime was committed. You seem to know already so perhapsyou can tell us what happened to that other Malaysian Airlines jet?
17 July 2014 6:16pm
7
hamatik bootboys
No he/she just doesn't exist on a higher plane of consciousness to the restof us, as you do yourself.
17 July 2014 6:30pm
4
PeteCW totis
The families of the deceased will very soon know that their loved ones were
17 July 2014 8:27pm
3
Simon100
Tragedy! Those poor people on the plane and their families.
17 July 2014 5:40pm
22
AdanSydneyFC
https://twitter.com/susancandiotti/status/489810673778847744/photo/1
17 July 2014 5:40pm
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live 29/32
TigerTim
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17 July 2014 5:41pm
JonCymru
What's really needed now is cool heads, considering the calibre of politicians anddiplomats on this planet right now, I won't hold my breath.
17 July 2014 5:41pm
32
djkbrown2001
This is shocking! Let's hope these idiots will now come around to their senses andhave an immediate and permanent seize fire. To many illnesses and naturaldisasters can kill us ,so let's not add to it by killing each other.
17 July 2014 5:41pm
4
alcove
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17 July 2014 5:41pm
3 PEOPLE, 4 COMMENTS
martyjar
295 civilians – from that height. This looks certain to be an absolutely massivetragedy, with unthinkable death levels. RIP.
Certainly the evidence on what has happened seems to be pointing in one direction,but there’ll now be a huge amount of international scrutiny on the case, and weshould hear more in coming days.
17 July 2014 5:42pm
14
Vladimir Makarenko martyjar
What evidence? You know something nobody else does?
17 July 2014 7:06pm
7
PeteCW Vladimir Makarenko
Vladimir - next time your 'supervisor' goes for a cigarette break or to get thelatest orders from the Kremlin, look up from your screen and take a quickpeek at the real world. (Don't get caught though.)
The Russian separatists did this - by mistake I grant you - but they shot thisplane down because they thought it was a Ukrainian jet. They have the anti-aircraft capability either smuggled from Russia or taken from the Ukrainianmilitary.
17 July 2014 8:42pm
6
PeteCW martyjar
295 civilians – from that height. This looks certain to be an absolutelymassive tragedy, with unthinkable death levels. RIP.
I think the unthinkable death levels might be around 295 people. At aguess.
17 July 2014 8:54pm
5 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
RedsInTheBed
17 July 2014 5:42pm
44
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live 30/32
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 7:57pm
Guardian - get the bloody comments off this article/news feed - have you nosympathy for the victims here.
17 July 2014 5:42pm
Jamesread RedsInTheBed
Do you want to shut down Twitter as well?
17 July 2014 5:48pm
76
necronancy RedsInTheBed
I think you are confusing sympathy with censorship here. The only mercifulthing is that the poor victims would not have suffered, unlike their families,but this is a major geo-political event and you want to shut everyone up. Ishan't wish you good luck with that.
17 July 2014 6:53pm
83
JezD RedsInTheBed
Out of "sympathy" for the victims should I not discuss this with my wife? Or
17 July 2014 7:35pm
35
2 PEOPLE, 2 COMMENTS
Kookaroo
This is a tragedy. It will also open fresh wounds for the families of the still missingflight MH370 and, it is worth reflecting, that hundreds of new families will be in agonyand grief tonight.
It would be advisable to either close the comments on this story or at least moderateto avoid adding to their anguish as they search for news. It is far too early tospeculate, and doing so will only acerbate an already dreadful situation.
'roo
17 July 2014 5:43pm
22
nomoregoodids Kookaroo
Kookaroo the pro-censorship chicken.
17 July 2014 8:34pm
1
4 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
Zain Tariq
A similar incident happened in 1983 when one fighter jet of the Soviet union shotdown a South Korean passenger plane and this was during the Cold War.
It took years to finish the investigation and a lot of speculation. I need quick answersto this incident
17 July 2014 5:43pm
2
rockyrex Zain Tariq
See
http://www.theguardian.com/discussion/user/id/2402595
17 July 2014 5:47pm
1
SamDecker Zain Tariq
Why do you need quick answers? What's it got to do with you? Surely thefamilies are the ones that need to know the CORRECT answers.
17 July 2014 5:55pm
27
Zain Tariq SamDecker 2
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live 31/32
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:29pm
Zain Tariq SamDecker
Oh we got a badass here!
17 July 2014 7:46pm
2
4 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 8:45pm
SamDecker
Wow, nothing is officially known yet but the Kremlin lot are already out in force,spinning away, as if they sense they're side has done something indefensible andthey need to shift the blame pronto.
17 July 2014 5:43pm
45
orangeproximity SamDecker
It is interesting how a plane goes missing over Ukraine and the Russiansare to blame... Is there some time when the Russians are not to blame?Talk about spinning away mate...
17 July 2014 6:00pm
53
hamatik SamDecker
Both sides are probably panicking hoping it wasn't their allies' actions thatbrought the plane down.
Could have been terrorists or engine failure or anything. Would be a hugecoincidence, but you never know.
If anyone's got shares in Malaysia Airlines, I'd pretty much write them off.
17 July 2014 6:06pm
9
SamDecker orangeproximity
I've blamed no one for the crash - just the relentless, knee-jerk propaganda.
17 July 2014 6:09pm
5
4 PEOPLE, 5 COMMENTS
Show 2 more replies Last reply: 17 July 2014 7:50pm
JustDeFacts
why was a civilian passenger plane routed directly across a disputed war zone whereaircraft get shot down?
17 July 2014 5:43pm
33
scottie123 JustDeFacts
Planes fly over conflict zones all the time. Unless there is a no-fly-zoneabove 8000m then the commercial flights continue, I flew over Afghanistanon the same Amsterdam-KL route during the war there.
17 July 2014 6:00pm
16
SingaporeSlim JustDeFacts
Because its a well established corridor. There are plenty of flights using itright this minute, have a look at Flight Radar 24. I personally flew it lastweek and will be going across it again in 4 days time unless the routing ischanged, which I hope to Christ it will be
17 July 2014 6:02pm
13
JustDeFacts scottie123
civilian planes fly over war zones where planes get shot down with missiles
17 July 2014 6:26pm
12
7/17/2014 Malaysia Airlines plane MH17 crashes in Ukraine - live updates | World news | theguardian.com
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/17/malaysia-airlines-plane-crashes-ukraine-live 32/32
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meekstom21
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17 July 2014 5:43pm
2 PEOPLE, 2 COMMENTS
WarRocketAjax
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17 July 2014 5:43pm
alcove WarRocketAjax
Yes. That's the gist of it.
The Guardian comment section is going to be unbearable again for a while,just as it was a couple months ago.
17 July 2014 5:47pm
12
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