Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 3, "The Future of Money"

8/13/2019 Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 3, "The Future of Money"

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Lets Talk Bitcoin

Episode 3 The Future of Money

ParticipantsAdam B. Levine (ABL) - Host

Andreas M Antonopoulos (AMA) - Co-HostDr. Stephanie Murphy (SM) - Co-HostPaul Hughes !uest "rom #ivation $nternational%li&a'eth Ploshay !uestAle Mered !uest

Adam B. Leine* Hi and +elome to Let,s al Bitoin/ a sho+ "or everyone

interested in "uture o" money. Coming up on today0s sho+*

1Pro2et al - phone-a-oin/ open +allet and por therapy.

1Ma 3eiser gets lever/ or is it ra&y4 He +ants to peg 'itoin into the dollar5 +etal a'out it.

1$ sit do+n +ith Paul Hughes to disset the dangers and "ind out +hat the "uture

might hold "or Bitoin.

16ou ased/ here it is/ altoins/ liteoins/ nameoins/ "reioins. 7e spend the seond

hal" o" the sho+ digging into the rypto urreny ompetition.

1Community round-ta'le mem'er %li&a'eth Ploshay has some help"ul advie on ho+

to eduate those in 7ashington a'out the "uture o" money.

#isit us at letstal'itoin.om to su'sri'e "or "ree to our t+ie-+eely sho+. Let,s

al Bitoin runs entirely on 'itoin donations and my out-o"-poet epenses. $" +e

an hit one 'itoin o" listeners support per sho+/ +e0ll 'e a'le to 'ring on a "ull time

assoiate +ho +ill 2oin me in my tas o" hunting stories and onduting intervie+s/

+hih means more and 'etter ontent and more "re8uent releases o" etra-

intervie+s on o""-sho+ days. So "ar "or episode 9/ +e0ve reeived :.;


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and other sho+s to ome. Ene again/ i" you0re interested/ please ontat me at

adamFletstal'itoin.om. #isit letstal'itoin.om "or our ne+ +e' page/ sta""

'ios/ opportunities to 2oin the ommunity round-ta'le/ and o" ourse/ our per

episode listener support tip 2ar.

My name is Adam B. Levine. $0m a +riter and speaer +ho lies to eplainompliated topis in understanda'le terms. hat,s really +hat +e0re doing here5

taing the ompliated topi o" ryptographially seured money and helping

people see +hat it ould mean in their o+n lives. Goining me in our 8uest "or larity

are Andreas M. Antonopoulos/ an epert in deentrali&ed net+ors and seure

systems.

Andreas M. Antonopoulos* Hi?

ABL!..and Dr. Stephanie Murphy/ a sientist and syndiated radio host.

"tephanie Murphy* Hi?

ABL!So pro2ets/ every'ody0s got them. 7e0re taling a'out them. Last time +e

taled a'out pro2ets that +e +ere personally +oring on/ and $ thin that,s

something ertainly +e0re going to do sometimes. A"ter last +ee0s episode/ $ spoe

+ith Daryl/ +ho atually runs a servie alled phoneaoin.om. $t,s something that,s

2ust started out/ 'ut it,s 'asially lie a remote ontrol "or your 'itoin +allet using

SMS et Messages. He let me no+ a'out this 'eause +e had 'een taling a'out

the prevalene o" m-pesa in A"ria and ho+ there needed to 'e sort o" a dum'

phone solution "or sending 'itoin value and atually he had 'een +oring on one.

And atually sine $0ve spoen to him a'out this/ $0ve "ound out that there are t+o or

three others that are also in development/ doing the same 'asi onept. $ thought

that +as pretty neat. $" you0re interested/ you an he it out at phoneaoin.om.

"M!$ thin +e have a lot o" really smart listeners.

ABL* 6eah/ a'solutely. %very'ody0s involved in stu"". $ mean/ there0s 2ust so muh

opportunity out there right no+.

"M!6eah/ de"initely.

AMA!Bitoin has this "unny +ay o" maing everything a !reen"ield/ as it,s alled in

the teh industry/ 2ust a +ide-open opportunity. $0d lie to tal a 'it a'out a pro2et

$0m +oring on5 a ommunity pro2et alled Epen Paper 7allet. o+ i" you0ve gotmore than/ say/ 9: or I: 'itoin/ you 8uily reali&e that eeping them online is a

'ad idea. So/ paper +allets are great solution +here you an old store your money

on paper/ in a sa"e and that,s +hat +e0re trying to do here. 7e added a "e+ seurity

"eatures lie opa8ue stiers that you have to srath o"" in order to read the eys/

'aup stu's/ and 'eauti"ully designed notes that ome on pre-per"orated sheets/

so that anyone an print J@ odes on them and use them. his pro2et is open-

soure and last +ee +e ompleted the "irst design. 9: or so designs/ "rom ;


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di""erent designers/ all released into the open soure domain under Creative

Commons lienses "or the use o" the ommunity. So/ that pro2et is going very +ell.

($t,s an) eiting pro2et +ith a lot o" partiipation/ Epen Paper 7allet.

ABL!So/ "or users that aren,t "amiliar +ith paper +allets/ 'eause +e0re taling to

some people +ho are ne+ to Bitoin. Most people vie+ 'itoin as an onlineurreny/ so ho+ does that +or4

AMA!hat,s the 'eauty o" it. $n "at/ all you0re doing is/ assoiating 'itoin +ith a

private ey and essentially loing it up in to ey that,s stored on paper/ and 'y

storing the ey on paper/ you an put it in your sa"e/ it,s not on omputer/ it an,t

'e haed. So/ that,s the huge advantage. o+/ o" ourse/ i" you +ant to use that

money/ you have to tae it out o" your sa"e/ san it and then destroy that note

'eause no+ it,s no longer seure. 7hat it allo+s you to do is eep aside you a'out

K perent o" my 'itoin o""line and only eep poet hange on my online +allet

"or daily spending5 ind o" lie you +ould do +ith a sa"e-deposit 'o or 'an in the

real +orld. $ mean/ you don,t arry your entire retirement savings in your +allet.

"M!$ really lie all those "eatures that you mentioned/ Andreas and $0ve 'een

interested in paper +allets "or a little +hile/ ever sine $ reali&ed 2ust ho+ inseure it

an 'e to eep 'itoins on online +allets. So/ $0m really urious to see ho+ this

pro2et un"olds and $ thin $0m going to go he it out right no+ mysel".

ABL!his is a timely topi 'eause atually/ a"ter +e spoe to David Perry last

+ee/ as $ +as doing ind o" the +rap up onversation +ith him a"ter the intervie+.

urns out/ he +as ro''ed/ his 'lohain.in"o +allet +here he +as using - $ 'elieve

he had a 6u'iey/ too - someho+ it +as drained o" all its value. $ mean/ again this is

2ust one o" those things +here/ even i" it seems lie you0re in a very/ very seuresituation using multiple "orms o" authentiation/ it still isn,t as seure as simply

'eing impossi'le to ha it 'eause the in"ormation 2ust isn,t availa'le online.

"M!hat,s too 'ad to hear a'out David0s eperiene. 7ith the paper +allet too/

there0s some other riss/ $ guess. At "irst/ +hen $ heard a'out paper 'itoin +allets/ $

+as very septial. $ +as thining/ +hy +ould you +ant something paper4 Paper is a

physial item/ it ould 'e destroyed. 6ou have to eep it in a "ire sa"e. 6ou have to

mae sure you don,t lose it. here0s all ind o" things that ould go +rong +ith

paper/ so even though you may eliminate some o" the online seurity riss/ there

are additional physial/ real +orld riss that you still have to +orry a'out. here0s

also the idea/ $ don,t no+ i" you guys have ever heard o" this/ 'ut $0ve no+n somepeople +ho +ere printing paper +allets and i" you print it on/ lie a/ +ireless printer/

that in"ormation is going some+here and potentially some'ody ould interept it.

AMA!A lot o" the has +e see/ i" you lie/ are really lo+-teh. So/ a lot o" people

are +orried a'out/ Eh my !od/ an my 9;-'it ey 'e raed/ and all o" that.

Mean+hile/ they use pass+ord=9I as their pass+ord. So/ these attas are usually

lo+-teh. People get their +allets mugged/ usually 'eause they0re not su""iiently


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seured. o+/ i" you do +anna store things o""line on a paper +allet/ you have to

tae additional preautions. So/ +e0ve 'een testing "or +ater damage/ damage "rom

aids. 7e0ve 'een looing at ho+ to protet them "rom CC# ameras that an see

a J@ ode "rom 9::-"eet a+ay/ ho+ to protet them "rom "ire/ and other types o"

damage. So/ one o" the main innovations +e have in Epen Paper 7allet is a

separate/ tear-o"" stu' that has a 'aup opy. o+ that,s one thing you an,t do+ith real money/ you an,t mae a 'aup opy +hih is stored in a seond sa"e/

+hih you an do +ith a paper +allet. $t,s 8uite an interesting solution.

"M!$t,s a really innovative +ay o" solving some o" those pro'lems/ very ool? So $0d

lie to tal a'out my pro2et. $t,s not diretly Bitoin related/ although 'itoins are a

"re8uent topi. As $ mentioned $0m a radio host and $ have my o+n podast/ it,s

alled Por herapy. Por lie a porupine/ and $ am not atually a therapist/ 'ut it,s

a sho+ a'out personal "reedom and happiness and 'itoins are a very "re8uent

topi o" onversation as +ell as 2ust general "inanial and eonomi and 2o'

"reedom. 6ou an "ind it at portherapy.om/ that,s P E @ C herapy Dot Com. So/

+eely podast/ that is also a live sho+/ airs on riday nights and then $ also post

podast only ontent on the "eed 8uite "re8uently as +ell.

ABL!$ love your theme song. (P@ note* Por herapy theme song +as playing.)

"M!(laughter) han you? hat +as Hannah Ho""man +ho did the theme song.

Adertisement!oyart.om is a 'etter heout eperiene/ empo+ering

developers to reate "lei'le/ po+er"ul/ ustom e-ommere in less time +hile

e8uipping merhants +ith the "astest heout "lo+ availa'le to their ustomers.

oyart is 'uilt "or +e' pro"essionals. $t an serve as a "oundation "or advaned

ustom e-ommere deployments or "or 8ui and easy/ single produt/ onlinestores and o" ourse/ "oyart supports 'itoin. #isit "oyart.om to learn more.

"M!So guys/ $ read this artile the other day "rom the Hu""ington Post and it +as 'y

Ma 3eiser "rom the 3eiser @eport. He0s a pretty/ $ guess/ "amous "inanial

ommentary person and he +as suggesting something that really surprised me

'eause +hat it said to me +as that/ perhaps he doesn,t 8uite get ho+ Bitoin

atually +ors and +hat he +as suggesting this artile +as/ that Bitoin should 'e

pegged to the S dollar. He suggested a rate o" =:: S Dollars per 'itoin and then

he said that/ essentially the Bitoin oundation should at as lie/ entral planners

and manage this and en"ore it. So/ +hat do you guys thin a'out that4

AMA!Blasphemy? hat idea is anathema to the entire "oundation and design o"

Bitoin. $ mean/ the +hole point o" it is a deentrali&ed urreny that doesn,t su""er

"rom some o" the manipulation tatis that you see in "iat urrenies/ at least that,s

the priniple that a lot o" the purists in the industry tal a'out. $ thin that ind o"

idea +ill "ind a lot o" resistane/ 'ut also $ thin it,s 2ust plain +rong. $ mean/ it "ails

to understand the de"lationary harateristis o" Bitoin/ +hih are 'uilt into the

system and so there"ore/ i" you did peg it to the Dollar/ +hat it +ould do is/ it +ould


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reate a tremendous opportunity "or ar'itrage. 6ou0d have a 'la maret +here

'itoin +ould 'e sold at higher and higher rates. $ ertainly remem'er t+o deades

ago/ $ ould hange money in plaes lie Budapest or Slovaia or plaes lie that at

I or < times the o""iial rate. So/ i" +e +anna repeat that in Bitoin/ sure/ great idea.

$s Ben Bernane around4 May'e he ould tae over the Bitoin oundation.

"M!hose are eellent points. here0s gonna 'e a maret ehange rate the +ay

people really/ truly value 'itoins and then there0s the o""iial ehange rate +ith

any urreny that its pegged and does reate great ar'itrage opportunities. May'e

that,s +hat he really has in mind. $ mean/ ind o" surprises me that some'ody lie

Ma 3eiser +ouldn,t understand that.

AMA!@eally/ +hat you +ould need net is urreny ontrols and o" ourse/ in order

to en"ore urreny ontrols/ you need to limit the num'er o" plaes people an

ehange it and pro'a'ly hange some o" the harateristis o" Bitoin.

"M* he iron "irst +ould have to lamp do+n more and more/ and that,s really so

antithetial to Bitoin 'eause 'itoin is "ree money/ and not "ree as in 'eer/ "ree as

in li'erty/ right4 So/ $ don,t thin a lot o" people +ho are really/ really interested in

'itoins +ould +ant to see that happen. $ +anna speulate on some o" the reasons

+hy - $ thin that there are some people +ho are hearing a'out Bitoin and they0re

interested in it 'ut they0re also "eeling really sared 'eause/ they see the volatility

and they see the "at that right no+/ the prie has gone through some pretty

serious "lutuations reently and they "eel sared a'out that/ 'eause they thin

that people ould lose a lot o" money on this/ people ould mae a lot o" money on

this. hey +ant something that,s more sta'le and so there0s the temptation to sort

o" use this regulatory mehanism o" ontrol to try to ensure that sta'ility. But you

really an,t get sta'ility in that +ay 'eause/ lie +e said/ it 2ust doesn,t +or there.People are going to reate 'la marets and (its) 2ust not gonna happen and even

i" it ould happen/ +hat +ould 'e the ost4 he ost +ould 'e essentially destroying

the +hole 'asis o" the urreny and taing a+ay a lot o" people0s "reedoms.

ABL!7e agree the prie +ould 'e 'asially impossi'le to peg to the high value o" a

=:: dollars. But i" you 2ust thin a'out it lie a "loor/ then suddenly it maes a little

'it o" sense and so $ thin that any'ody +ho is "amiliar +ith ho+ Bitoin +ors an

see that it,s impossi'le to eep people "rom transating it at higher values than

+hatever the ar'itrary level you set it at. But +hat i" that,s not the point4 7hat i"

the point is to 2ust prevent the potential o" a rash/ 'a do+n to = NdollarO or the

potential o" a rash 'a do+n to some lo+er num'er4

AMA!$ have a 'it o" an anedote on that topi. $n the K:s/ $ +ored in a hedge "und

and $ apologi&e "or that. $ remem'er the day that the Prime Minister o" S+eden

ame on # and said/ o matter +hat/ +e +ill de"end the value o" the 3rona. he

hedge "und people in that room heered and started selling lie ra&y. he 'oss

sreamed/ Last one out o" S+eden/ turn o"" the lights. 6ou an put a "loor on a


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urreny and all you0re gonna do is enrih the urreny speulators as they 'eat you

over the head +ith that and mae a lot o" money in the proess.

ABL!$sn,t that +hat Ma 3eiser does in this ase/ though4 He0s putting together a

Q=: 'illion "und/ spei"ially to invest in Bitoin. So it seems lie that +ould 'e

investing in Bitoin in any+ay that,s pro"ita'le.

AMA!Eh/ sure. $n e""et/ he0d end up solving the very pro'lem that he0s +orried

a'out 'eause the reason +e have volatility in Bitoin/ is 'eause o" lo+-volume

and the eonomy is easy to s+ing around. $"/ instead o" a 9 'illion eonomy/ it +as a

99 'illion eonomy/ it +ould 'e a lot harder to get these inds o" volatility epressed

diretly in the prie. $" you 'ring =: 'illion in/ that,s great. $t +ould really provide a

lot o" inertia. $ mean/ that,s really +hat it is. hin o" it as the di""erene 'et+een a

&odia turning and a ruise-ship turning. he S eonomy is a ruise ship and so/ "or

eample/ +hen you have volatility in the la'or maret and things lie that/ it doesn,t

really epress itsel" diretly in the ehange rate o" the dollar/ or i" it does/ it taes

a'out three months and till you see some o"" 'lo situation. Bitoin gets +hiplashevery time something hanges/ 'eause it,s a small eonomy and it an move

around 8uily.

ABL!So/ +e all agree that/ really regardless o" +hat +ere to happen/ the +ay that

this has 'een proposed 2ust "lat out +ouldn,t +or.

AMA!$t,s a solution seeing a pro'lem/ really.

ABL!$ sat do+n +ith Paul Hughes o" #ivation $nternational to onnet the dots "rom

our intervie+ on %pisode = +ith Bradley Gansen on inC% and really/ +e taled

a'out the end o" Bitoin or something else.

Paul #u$hes!Paul Hughes - my day 2o' has/ atually/ has nothing to do +ith

Bitoin at all. $ atually run a ompany alled #ivation $nternational. 7hat +e do/

+orshops and seminars and +e teah empo+erment sills and emotional healing

sills. Ho+ever/ $ have 'een involved in the tehnologial arena "or almost 9: years.

My Bahelor,s degree is in Physis and $ +as atually hanging out in those digital

enrypted urreny irles 'a in the K:s. here +as a lot o" interesting

onversations online. $ atually met some interesting people in those days. So/ $

ind o" got an early insight into +hat digital urrenies are and ho+ they +or and

so $0ve 'een "ollo+ing this very losely "or 8uite some time.

ABL!So Paul/ you and $ have 'een taling over emails a'out the intervie+ that +e

did +ith Bradley Gansen on the "irst episode o" Let,s al Bitoin and thought that

you had some really interesting perspetive.

P#!Ene o" the things that $0ve notied is that people are on"lating Bitoin +ith

Bitoin ehanges and other aspets o" the Bitoin eology and most people are

"orgetting to mae that lear distintion. Bitoin is a protool/ it,s deentrali&ed and


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there0s nothing/ "or eample/ stopping me "rom having a Bitoin lient on my

omputer and you on your omputer/ and you and $ are 2ust doing this - 2ust

ehanging 'itoins 'a and "orth. 7hen you tal to Mr. Gansen/ he made the point

that/ loo inC%0s got these guidelines that are going to ome do+n possi'ly +ith

proseutions 'eause o" the possi'ility o" money laundering and other types o"

issues and those are legitimate onerns. $ don,t see any reason +hy thoseehanges an,t 'e ompliant. But +hat he said/ though - he said something very

etreme in my opinion. 7hen and i" inC% deides to proseute these ehanges

"or not 'eing ompliant. He said/ this is the end o" Bitoin. ot this is the end o"

Bitoin ehanges in the nited States or this is the end o" that Bitoin ehange. $t

is the end o" Bitoin itsel" and so $ thought that +as a very/ very strong laim. At

that point/ $ +as lie/ +ell gee/ +e need to - $ +ould0ve ased him +ell/ ho+ an you

mae that laim4 or eample/ ho+ does inC% regulations apply to the other =K:

ountries in the +orld4 $ mean/ granted the nited States does have some pretty

strong politial in"luene. But the real 8uestion is/ ho+ does that atually stop

Bitoin itsel"4 and $ +ould0ve ased him that 8uestion 'ut $ thin he tried to/ he

ind o"/ $ guess/ sort o" side-traed us. Loo/ this is +hat inC%0s gonna do and it,s

going to 'e the end o" Bitoin. $ guess that 'othered me 'eause $ see that

happening so muh in all the onversations $0ve had.

ABL!6ou no+ the reason +hy $ didn,t push him too hard on that issue is 'eause

he totally did avoid the 8uestion/ +as 'eause $ ind o" get +hat he0s saying. %ven

though inC% tehnially only has 2urisdition in the nited States/ $ thin that +e

all no+/ you an loo at things lie drug poliy or 2ust in general. Poliy tends to

"ollo+ the money and the nited States has the money and gives it out to more

people really/ than any'ody else. So there"ore/ they settle out o" the rules. Do you

thin that i" 'itoin ehanges +ere made illegal and the transation o" 'itoin +asillegal in the nited States/ +hat do you thin +ould happen4

P#!hat,s +hat $0m saying. $ thin it,s important to mae that nuaned

interpretation/ 'eause to say it,s the end o" Bitoin is not atually aurate. $t

+ould0ve 'een "air to say/ his ould 'e the end o" Bitoin ehanges in the nited

States/ that in turn ould0ve set up the sort o" a/ poliy domino e""et. 7here/ it

+ould0ve 'egun the ending o" ehanges in plaes lie %urope/ possi'ly %ngland/

possi'ly Gapan. But then as you move more and more into the periphery/ into the

third +orld/ that - $ thin those a'ilities to en"ore that 'eomes less and less/ and

$0m not saying that,s a good thing. $0m not saying that/ Eh !osh/ this is - Bitoin0s

going to do 2ust "ine. $t,s de"initely going to hurt Bitoin/ 'ut it,s not going to ill itand that,s an important distintion to mae. Money tends to go +here it an/ apital

tends to "lee and go +here it an/ and so +ith Bitoin/ it,s o'viously etremely

disruptive to the eisting 'aning system. here are a lot o" people/ not neessarily

riminals/ 'ut there0s a lot o" people +ho have a lot o" money/ +ho have an interest

in seeing something lie Bitoin sueed. $ mean there0s that reent eposure. $

thin that,s something lie QI> trillion o" o""shore assets. Some o" them/ o" ourse/


8/27

are oligarhs and riminals/ 'ut most o" them are rih people trying to hide their

money. here0s de"initely this/ $ guess this tug o" +ar 'et+een y'er-nations trying

to ollet ta revenue and money trying to esape it/ 'eause here0s the thing* i"

you loo at e-gold/ $ mean/ $ +ent ahead and did my researh 'e"ore the intervie+/

they +ere not ompliant. hey +ere not atually getting people0s identity5 they

+eren,t going through the trou'le o" getting $Ds and going through all o" the normalproedures that a 'an goes through. hey didn,t do that/ and 'eause they didn,t

do that/ they got shut do+n and so people are sort o" maing that omparison/ 7ell

!ee/ Bitoin is going to go the same +ay as e-gold. 7ell/ there are t+o di""erent

things to say a'out that. Ene is/ e-gold +as a entrali&ed sort o" system and it +as

one/ more or less one or t+o ompanies. So they +ere a single point o" "ailure. +o/

+hat,s eeping these ehanges in the nited States "rom atually omplying. $t

might 'e epensive/ 'ut not impossi'le. $n other +ords/ $ don,t thin inC% is

neessarily saying Bitoin is illegal/ they 2ust +ant there to 'e a +ay to tra money

going "rom 'itoin to ash/ and ash to 'itoin to mae sure that there0s not any

sort o" illegality happening.

ABL!But isn,t that an inherent on"lit here +ith even the idea that urreny/ it

seems lie/ i" +e0re taling a'out value in the +orld/ isn,t that a &ero sum game/

+here/ i" some'ody is +inning it means some'ody else is losing and the urrent

system +e have right no+ is one +here the dollar has most o" the value stored in it

and everything else is sort o" 'aed 'y that. So/ you an see ho+/ "rom the

perspetive o" someone or an organi&ation that has the dollar as its ore tenant/ it

+ould 'e ind o" sary to loo at this other system oming up and potentially 'eing

a superior produt 'eause ultimately that,s the pro'lem here. he point is 'etter to

'e money/ right4

P#!Eh yeah/ you0re a'solutely orret. $ mean/ i" +e get right do+n to it/ $ mean/

Bitoin is very threatening to the a'ility/ "or eample/ i" people ontrol "iat

urrenies to settle other 'ans to in"late the urrenies.

ABL* Do you thin that/ $ mean $ 2ust have to thin that sine governments are

made o" people/ that has to ome into the e8uation +hen they0re maing thesedeisions.

P#* 6eah/ $ agree. $ mean/ the 'ottom line is/ Bitoin $ thin is very disruptive. $t,s

disruptive to the urrent eonomi regime/ in the +ay its run. $t,s 2ust lie/ "or

eample/ musi sharing +as disruptive to the eisting musi thing.


9/27

ABL* @ight.

P#* So/ they are going to.. $ mean/ this maes rational sense. hey0re gonna do+hatever they an to stop it or o-opt it and so/ to me that,s a rational onlusion.

$0ve ome to that onlusion too. But given the "at that/ that is their intention or

that is their desire and that is a rational sort o"/ response. he net 8uestion is/

+ell/ +hat an they atually do4 6ou no+ they ould atta it legally/ +hih they

ould do and right no+ inC% hasn,t said they0re gonna do that. hey0ve 2ust ased

the money ehangers to omply/ +ors +ith speulating. 7hat i" they 2ust delare

it illegal4 $t,s 2ust "or money-laundering/ pornography/ terrorism/ that ind o" thing

and they 2ust go out and "lat out lie. hat is ertainly a possi'ility/ and 8uite "ranly

it seems that pro'a'ly/ a liely possi'ility given the nature o" Bitoin. At that point/ $

don,t no+ +hat,s gonna happen.

ABL* o/ it,s - you get o"" into the +eeds. $ totally understand.

P#* 6eah/ yeah/ yeah. his is a 'ig topi and so it,s lie/ there are so many di""erent

+ays to go here. $n this partiular ase/ in +hat $ +as o" +hat $ +as responding

spei"ially to Mr. Gansen. He made a very spei"i laim. $" inC% goes out and

proseutes them 'ased on the +ay the la+ is +ritten/ +hih is money-laundering

and so on/ and then they have to 'e under ompliane o" inC% rules/ that is theend o" Bitoin/ and $ +as simply hallenging that spei"i statement.

ABL* So i" you thin that it +ouldn,t go a+ay/ tae that same omparison and let,s

move it to ae'ooMySpae thing. ae'oo didn,t ill MySpae/ 'ut one ould

argue that MySpae is not doing very +ell relative to that relationship no+.

P#* So/ $ guess +hat you are implying essentially then/ that Bitoin ould essentially

sueed on some level/ it 2ust +ouldn,t supplant eisting urrenies/ it +ould simply

"ind its o+n nihe. hat,s +here $0ve 'een oming "rom. $ thin that Bitoin is not

neessarily a urreny5 it,s not neessarily a ommodity. $t has properties o" 'oth/

'ut it,s also uni8ue. As Gon Matonis said/ it is its o+n asset lass. Bitoin +ill

eventually "ind its o+n nihe/ the 8uestion is/ +hat nihe is that going to 'e4 $s it

gonna 'eome a mainstream nihe/ that there +ill 'e a lot o"/ +hat $ all/ legitimate

money going in to it and that legitimate money +ill in turn have politial in"luene


10/27

and 'ring it/ sort o" a legitimay same +ay as PayPal4 -And that eventually/ the rest

o" the system +ill ath up and +e0ll move "or+ard or +ill it get pushed into the

system D eonomy/ into the underground eonomy/ and 'eome sort a 'la

maret4 $ thin no'ody really no+s the ans+er to that. Bitoin - it +on,t die/ at the

+orst/ it +ill go into the sort o" "ringe under 'ell/ ind o" lie anaero'i 'a hair

that got pushed under the +ater. hat might end up 'eing its nihe and sort o" this/'la maret thing.

ABL* $t has utility at that level/ even. $ mean/ that,s ind o" the interesting part

a'out it is that/ it,s very/ very hard "or it/ atually to 'e destroyed 'eause o" its

deentrali&ed nature and 'eause it "ranly has utility/ even i" it,s to that really

small minority/ at a very lo+ value.

P#* @ight/ right. ae Rim'a'+e or one o" these other small ountries or +here

there0s urrenies (+hih are) in"lated ompletely out o" proportion. $ ould easily

see/ +hat $ thin it,s alled m-pesa/ it,s that mo'ile minutes urreny system they0re

using in A"ria. $ ould easily see Bitoin sort o" getting a good "oothold there/ and

not 'eause o" its prie point +ith any other "iat urreny/ 'ut 2ust as a medium o"

ehange* it,s a simple/ easy system that people ould/ sort o"/ do it as a unit o"

aount and there"ore even i" the prie is going up and do+n lie ra&y/ they0re not

gonna really notie 'eause their eonomy is 'eoming sel"-ontained. hey0ve

"ound their o+n/ sort o"/ loali&ed urreny. he idea is/ ho+ do you mae a urreny

that/ regardless o" its legality/ is un-en"orea'le. At this point/ it an 'e argued that

musi sharing/ musi piray/ it,s essentially unen"orea'le. hey have it on the'oos. 7ell over a I: perent o" $nternet tra""i is Bittorrent. $ thin Satoshi

aamoto/ or +hoever that person or persons +ere/ had to have onsidered that.

$t,s lie/ loo/ this is gonna 'e outla+ed immediately. hat 2ust to me is sort o"/ is an

o'vious given and so +hen $ hear a'out/ Eh/ they0re gonna outla+ it. $nstintively/

$ thin/ 7ell that may not matter.

ABL* A lot o" it is not a'out Bitoin. A lot o" it is 2ust a'out the dollar and the other

urrenies that are ind o" in play (PH* 6eah.)/ 'eause again/ it,s not lie Bitoin is

so good that it,s horri'le. $ts Bitoin is so good that it maes every'ody else looshorri'le.

P#* hat,s eatly right and $ thin the other thing/ $ thin this is the reason $0ve

'een/ sort o" a 'ig "an o" Bitoin. he last "e+ years - given the 9:: 'aning

ollapse/ its thining !ee/ +e ould all end up in a horri'le eonomi mess. $


11/27

mean/ $ remem'er 9::K +as a pretty tough year "or a lot o" people - me too/ in

terms o" my 'usiness. $ ould see Bitoin/ even though it might 'e illegal/ let,s say.

So let,s say they outla+ed it/ this is sort o" the last desperate attempt to pop up

these "iat urrenies. At some point/ $ ould the +hole urreny thing ollapse. $

mean there0s a lot o" evidene o" that no+. $ mean/ the 6en0s going ra&y/ the %uro/

the %CB/ the roia/ all those people are going ra&y. $ mean/ there0s 2ust so muhstu"" going on. he entire Pon&i sheme that is our "inanial system ollapses.

Bitoin0s still there. $t,s this resilient sort o" thing in the eo system and $ ould see

every'ody starting to use it. $" all these 'aning systems started ollapsing/ it,s not

gonna really matter +hat people thin a'out +hether its legal or not/ people 2ust

start using it. $ thin that,s the area to start thining a'out/ and to the degree that

it,s atually en"orea'le. $ mean/ i" they0re losing money/ i" they0re having regulatory

pro'lems/ the 8uestion is ho+ an they en"ore it4

ABL* he type o" people +e0re taling to +ith this/ it,s di""iult "or them to imagineanything 'esides the S dollar paradigm and its di""erent "or them - $ mean even i"

you0re in a di""erent ountry/ +e0re still living under the S dollar paradigm as it,s

ind o" a glo'al ulture. $t,s hard "or people to imagine something that0s never 'een.

hat,s the end game/ i" things go the +ay they loo lie they0re gonna go and i" the

ators +ho are in play respond in a +ay that is logial "rom their perspetive. Do

you have a lot o" value in Bitoin no+ing that or are you 2ust +aiting "or the rash4

Tause it seems lie i" you 'elieve it,s gonna 'e 'anned then no+ +ould 'e the time

to 'uy.

P#* $ atually am going along. 6ou no+ $ purhased 'itoins a +hile 'a and $ got

those 'itoins/ mostly "or emotional/ and philosophial/ and politial reasons and $0m

thining/ you no+ $ ould get rih "rom this. $" eah oin 'eomes +orth up+ards o"

Q=::/:::/ $0m going to 'e +orth a lot o" money. But that +asn,t the reason $ got into

it/ $ got into it 'eause $ 'elieve in this/ $0m gonna put my money +here my mouth

is/ people have 'een hearing me push radial deentrali&ation "or hal" my li"e/ and

so $ thought $ should 2ust go "or+ard and invest in this/ 'eause it,s a ool idea and

it,s 'een very/ very eduational. $ mean/ the amount o" money $ invested/ $0ve easily

gotten my +orth 'a in terms o" eduation. Gust in terms o" using it and having that

investment there/ 'eing emotionally invested/ philosophially invested/ "inanially

invested/ has essentially 'ootstrapped my no+ledge a'out ho+ these type o"

things +or. $ thin it +as late e'ruary/ early Marh +ith the +hole Cyprus thing.

All o" a sudden it 2ust +ent o"" the harts/ the gro+th rate really started to hange

and $ thought to mysel"/ there0s a small hane this is gonna 'e the id/ this is gonna

go ra&y and it,s not gonna go 'a. But $ said/ there0s a more liely hane that this

is a speulative 'u''le and this 'u''le is gonna pop or something is gonna pop and

that,s eatly +hat happened and $ see that still happening/ $ still see these things


12/27

going 'ut it,s going to get less and less severe over time and this is/ o" ourse/

assuming that there0s no inC%0s legal atta going on.

ABL* he other side is that you don,t need to store any value in Bitoin "or any

amount o" time +hatsoever in order to etrat the value that it 'rings "rom that

perspetive/ and that,s al+ays 'een a very interesting thing "rom +here $ sit

'eause it means that the value "untionally doesn,t matter. $" you have an

appliation lie 'ridge +aler +here you an/ tae money/ store it in dollars/

transmit it into 'itoins and have it transmitted out on the other side 'a into

dollars again +ith no sort o" lateny/ then you get all o" the advantages o" the

'itoin money trans"er and there0s pro'a'ly a small "ee assoiated +ith it.

P#* So/ you0re taling a'out (something) lie Bitpay.

ABL* $s that ho+ Bitpay does it as +ell4

P#* $ thin so/ $ thin the +ay $ understand Bitpay is that/ the idea/ hey loo/ you

an set up yoursel" as a merhant/ you an aept 'asially ash that gets

translated into 'itoin and then that transation happens at a very lo+ rate/ it,s lie

= perent or less than = perent and it happens really "ast. So/ you0re not having to

deal +ith the prie "lutuations o" 'itoin itsel". $t,s 'eing simply used as a means o"transmission.

ABL* sing it as a means o" transmission as opposed to sitting in it "or any length o"

time/ +here you0re then eposed to maret movements. $ mean/ that,s ind o" the

interesting part/ it,s that it maes the prie irrelevant.

P#* he thing though is that 'eause you0re going "rom ash to 'itoin to ash

again/ you "all right 'a under inC% regulations.

ABL* Eh yeah/ a'solutely. rom a regulatory standpoint/ it,s a mess. $" you +ere

gonna separate the "untionality o" Bitoin "rom the volatility o" 'itoin prie/ $ thin

it +ould 'e very doa'le "rom a implementation standpoint. 7hether or not you0d 'e

a'le to legally omply +hile doing that is o" ourse the 8uestion +e0re taling a'out.


13/27

P#* $" you an reate sort o" a Bitoin eosystem (as a) sel"-ontained eonomy/

+here every'ody0s 2ust dealing in 'itoin and it 'eomes their o+n unit o" aount/

then it doesn,t matter +hat - you don,t need to ehange it 'a to dollars. here,s

no issue +ith inC%/ the +ay it,s +ritten no+. %very'ody0s paying themselves in'itoin5 it,s never going into dollars or any other urreny.

ABL* $ thin that you0ve nailed it there. hat,s +hat gonna happen i" inC% +inds

up doing this/ 'eause "untionally/ they0re saying that/ hat,s oay. hey0re

saying so long as you never touh another urreny +ith 'itoin then tehnially it,s

not a urreny. So/ $ mean/ 'y that standard you0re taling a'out a +hole ne+ type

o" onsumer 'eing reated.

P#* %ven though that might have a di""iult time going in/ say/ the S or in "irst-

+orld ountries. $ ould easily see that getting started in third-+orld ountries

'eause it,s ind o" lie that/ leap "rog"ish. hey +ent diretly "rom having no

phones to ell phones. @ight no+/ they0re ompletely 'loed out o" the +hole visa/

MasterCard/ PayPal thing. Bitoin is open soure/ they an do+nload it/ and then

they an immediately start using this system. $ 2ust read something/ $ thin it +as a

+ee or t+o ago +here one o" this !E guy in airo'i/ 3enya. He started going

around to the di""erent tri'esmen and saying/ Hey/ have you heard o" Bitoin4

and they0re lie/ 7hat,s that4? hey had heard/ o" ourse/ m-pesa 0ause they0re

using their mo'ile phones 'ut they hadn,t heard o" Bitoin 'e"ore/ and they seemed

very enthusiasti a'out the idea.

ABL* hans "or 2oining us today/ Paul. $ really appreiate you taing the time.

P#* 6eah/ no pro'lem. hans Adams.

(musicplays)

Adertisement* $" $ sho+ed you a +e'site +here you ould easily purhase

eletronis "rom the +orld0s largest distri'utor +ith 'itoins at :U marup/ +ould

you thin it +as too good to 'e true4 !ood ne+s/ it,s real and it,s at

'itoinstore.om. Choose "rom hal" a million items/ save money over Ama&on and


14/27

e+egg/ and onvert your 'itoins to real-+orld items. 6ou an even 'uy +ith

privay. All they need is a shipping address/ 'ut don,t tae my +ord "or it/ see "or

yoursel" at 'itoinstore.om.

AMA* Paul gave us some great ideas here and $ thin he0s a'solutely right that the

end o" 'itoin ehanges is not the end o" Bitoin. $ thin people underestimate ho+

hard it is/ not only to shutdo+n Bitoin tehnologially/ +hih o'viously/ that +ould

turn into a +ha-a-mole game very similar to +hat +e0ve seen +ith apster. But $

also thin it,s di""iult to shutdo+n Bitoin legally and part o" the reason "or that is

that/ it,s di""iult to ar'itrarily shutdo+n 'its o" the eonomy +hen there are

orporations 'ehind it. S la+ is orporate "riendly/ and as $ lie to say/ +hen due

proess is "ititious/ only "ititious entities have due proess. So/ the only people

+ho have due proess no+ are orporations and they an mae a pretty good

argument that Bitoin should not 'e 'anned/ annot 'e 'anned/ and the

government doesn,t have ompelling reasons to 'an it and those arguments an gopretty "ar. At least the S government is limited 'y the onstitution and +hat it an

apply. A good eample o" that is +hat happened to the opyright la+s +hen Sony

tried to sue Betama 'a in =K< to stop them "rom distri'uting #C@s on the idea

that #C@s +ere 'asially piray mahines - and this +ent all the +ay to the

Supreme Court. he Supreme Court deided that Sony ouldn,t do that and one o"

the interesting onepts that ame out o" that partiular ase la+ +as the idea that/

as long as a produt has any non-in"ringing use/ or at least a su'stantial non-

in"ringing use +hih means/ i" this tool an 'e used to do something legal/ you an,t

2ust lassi"y it as 'roadly illegal and 'an it. hat,s +hy ro+'ars are legal to 'uy/

'eause people sometimes need to 'rea into their o+n shed. hat,s +hy a lot o"

produts that ould 'e used "or many/ many legal uses that have su'stantial non

illegal uses are allo+ed in S maret. So/ it,s not so easy to 2ust slap a 'an on

Bitoin and every'ody +ill roll over and aept it. o/ this +ill 'e a suit over la+suit

all the +ay to the State Courts/ all the +ay to Supreme Court i" it happens and

there0s some really good de"enses.

ABL* Ho+ long do you thin that/ it,s gonna tae 'e"ore +e 'uild up a 'ody o"

orporations essentially that have a vested interest in Bitoin surviving 'eause it

seems lie/ that,s not really the ase no+. Certainly there are some orporations/ in

that they are orporations "ormally. But $ thin +hat you0re taling a'out is 'ig

'usiness. Big orporations that have lo''ying po+er and that have money they

"inane ampaigns +ith/ right4

AMA* $ +ould say that/ in "at/ there are enough orporations right no+ that have

essentially the main pre-re8uisite "or suh a ase/ +hih is legal standing and i" you


15/27

have legal standing +hih means/ you have orporation that is materially harmed

'y suh a 'an/ you have a ase and there are plenty o" organi&ations +hih +ill

'a that ase +ith rigorous de"ense/ suh as the %letroni rontier oundation/ the

ACL and various other organi&ations that have legal "unds to de"end suh a 'an

and i" $0m 8uite honest/ i" a S ompany/ one o" the suess"ul ones/ perhaps Silion

#alley 'an/ that is getting involved +ith Coin La' and Mt. !o here in Cali"ornia orCoin Base/ +hih is another Cali"ornia 'ased ompany. $" they +ere/ essentially told

to shut do+n/ $ +ould start a ro+d-"unding proess "or their legal "und and $0d 'e

putting some 'itoin into that one.

ABL* Let,s assume "or a seond that the +orst happens and it,s 2ust "lat out 'anned/

made illegal. 7hat do you thin happens there4

AMA* $ +ould loo to 'uy 'itoins/ 'eause the prie is gonna shoot up. al a'out

tamping do+n on supply/ right4 So/ it depends +hat eatly is meant 'y legal

'eause/ again even that has nuane. hey might 'e a'le to shut do+n the

ehanges/ disallo+ing individuals "rom o+ning or possessing 'itoin is going to 'e

a muh/ muh harder 'urden to shove and disallo+ing personal transations

'et+een individuals on Bitoin +ould have a pretty high 'urden/ so $0m not sure that

+ould 'e done easily.

ABL* Eay. So/ do you thin that +e0re gonna ontinue to see ehanges losing as

+e go through this4

AMA* 6eah/ this is a di""iult game to play. %hanges +ill 'e losing/ 'ut again/ as

Paul said/ that,s not the end o" Bitoin. his is 2ust gro+ing pains and as long as t+o

people have 'itoin and have a "iat urreny/ they an go to Star'us and

ehange that urreny "or 'itoin. $t,s as simple as that and you an,t stop that on

a 'road 'asis - you an,t stop that +hen it,s happening in a =


16/27

(musicplays)

"M* Last +ee/ +e taled a'out some o" these altoins. So/ all o" these are 'ased

o"" o" Bitoin 'ut there are small hanges that are made and sometimes these small

hanges a""et a lot o" things a'out the alternative oins. here are many o" them/

there are pro'a'ly ne+ ones oming out all the time. hese altoins +ill do things

lie/ hange the "re8ueny +here 'los are generated/ or the num'er o" oins that

are going to availa'le "or the 'lo re+ards/ or they0re gonna hange the time to

ad2ust the di""iulty/ or they hange even the hashing algorithm itsel"/ and then

some o" them have additional "eatures/ lie one is the net+or is reated via proo"

o" stae vs. proo" o" +or +hih is +hat Bitoin reates the net+or on/ some o"

them have - one oin has this demurrage "ee that +e taled a'out last +ee. So

there are 2ust lie/ all di""erent things that people are doing regardless o" +hether

any o" these oins are going to 'e suess"ul in the long term/ $ thin +e ould

pro'a'ly all agree that ompetition is great and may'e Bitoin isn,t ideal/ eventhough it urrently is the most popular and it has the most adoption/ and the most

support/ and the most trading volume. May'e they0re something that ould 'e

improved/ or may'e there0s room "or more than one rypto-urreny out there. $t

pro'a'ly +ould 'e great i" there +ere more options and people ould 2ust hoose

"rom among those. 7hat do you guys thin4

AMA* 6eah/ all o" these alt-oins really represent the diversity o" the Bitoin

eosystem. Honestly/ $0d 'e shoed i" Bitoin ends up 'eing the one true/ +orld

rypto-urreny. $t +ill pro'a'ly mutate into something else/ it might 'e renamed/ itmight hange the protool parameters/ it might 'e ompletely o'solete and people

ehange it "or something else. $ don,t thin it +ill lose its value ompletely 'ut i"/ at

some point/ a 'etter oin emerges/ people +ould 'e a'le to move their money into

that one. he nie thing is that there is no real stiiness other than the si&e o" the

eonomy. So/ i" a 'etter alt-oin appears then people an 8uite easily ehange

their money +ith the neessary li8uidity "rom one to the other. $ loo at this simply

as epressing various opinions in the "orm o" so"t+are. So/ i" Bitoin is +hite 'read/

someone lies pumperniel/ or +hole +heat/ or sesame sprouted/ or various other

variations/ and they all have a plae on the maret. En the other hand/ +e really

have to reogni&e the "at that KU o" the maret is going to 'e/ "or the "oreseea'le

"uture/ a +hite 'read maret. $t,s going to 'e the 'asi 'itoin and that,s simply a

matter o" inertia and volume. @ight no+ Bitoin is 'ig enough that it attrats

through this po+er-la+ dynami or net+or e""et/ it attrats more investors. So/ it,s

very di""iult to get an alt-oin o"" the ground and that,s as it should 'e. $" it really

maes a huge hange that,s +orth investing in/ people +ill hange. ntil then/

Bitoin is +here it,s at.


17/27

"M* 6ou no+ $ thin there0s some psyhologial "ators that play here/ too/ that

ontri'ute to potentially the popularity o" alt-oins and that is that there are lots o"

people out there +ho/ may'e they heard a'out 'itoins in lie/ 9:==/ and they +ere

ind o" septial and they0re lie/ ot sure i" $ +ant to get on 'oard/ and thensome time goes 'y and eventually/ 'itoins are rising a lot in prie omparing to the

S dollar and people start to really regret that they didn,t get in on ground "loor o"

'itoins and so they say/ E/ is there anything that is sort o"/ lie Bitoin is - lie

Bitoin +as a ouple o" years ago. o+ that $ ould sort o"/ get in on the ground

"loor/ and $ thin some o" these altoins represent that "or a lot o" people. En the

other hand there are also the people +ho +ere early adopters o" Bitoin or may'e/

+ere medium term adopters. $ thin +e0re still ind o" in the early adoption phase/

overall/ 'ut people +ho might not have neessarily 'een super-early adopters 'ut

got into Bitoin and they +anna ind o" protet their investment/ they +ant Bitoin

to sueed. hey 'elieve in it/ they are very invested in it/ $ guess/ emotionally and

monetarily/ and so they +ant it to sueed +ithout ompetition essentially and so

there an 'e those "ators/ 'oth at play and it,s really interesting. $ lied your 'read

analogy/ Andreas/ that people are going to have di""erent pre"erenes and in the

end +e0ll have to see +hat ends up 'eing used the most.

ABL* $ lie 'read that an 'e used "or more than one purpose and one o" the

interesting things $0ve seen a'out some o" alt-oin hains/ lie nameoin/ "or

eample. $ mean/ Bitoin and the 'lo hain metaphor that reates it and

maintains it/ is 'asially a distri'uted ledger. So/ right no+/ +e use that to tra

o+nership o" 'itoins/ 'ut +hat a 'lo lie name-oin has done/ is taen in thisase/ +e'site domains/ @LS and attahed those essentially to this/ again/ totally

transparent/ deentrali&ed ledger. 6es/ there0s the one side +here +e0re taling

a'out oins that spei"ially address something that they "eel is +rong +ith Bitoin/

'ut then there0s this other side that adds more "eatures to it or uses it in an

unonventional +ay and $ thin those are really interesting.

AMA* A'solutely/ Adam/ $ thin that,s +here the interesting stu"" is. So/ it,s very

easy to dismiss an alt-oin +hen you see things lie/ $ don,t no+/ $ don,t +anna

o""end one partiular oin. But $ thought/ 'ar'e8ue oin/ oins +ith +hih you ouldeat/ is an eample o" something that,s a 'it o" a 2oe/ 'ut other than that/ there are

some alt-oins that are very/ very interesting. So/ let,s loo at the taonomy "irst.

irst o" all/ there0s three di""erent types o" alt-oins. here0s alt-oins that are really

using/ the very same so"t+are as Bitoin and the same 'lo hain as struture 'ut

they t+ea a ouple o" the parameters. So/ "or eample/ instead o" 9= million oins

as the eiling they have a di""erent value "or that. hese are the 'asi alt-oins/ i"


18/27

you lie/ then there0s alt-oins that +or +ith the eisting 'lo hain o" Bitoin and

'uild upon it. $ all these metaoins* &ero-oin is one eample. $t o""ers anonymity

and omplete "or+ard serey on transations/ so it really goes in and solves a

partiular and very spei"i pro'lem +ith Bitoin/ +hih is that Bitoin is not per"et

anonymity/ its pseudonymity and &ero-oin rides on the same 'lo hain as Bitoin

and then there0s ompletely ne+ inventions +hih use very di""erent "orm o"so"t+are and are solving a very di""erent pro'lem/ name-oin/ "or domains is one

great eample. $ +as "asinated 'y some other appliations o" name-oin/

spei"ially you ould use name-oin to de"ine to alloate shares o" a orporation.

So/ essentially you ould have ompletely anonymous shareholders +hose proo" o"

stae in the orporation is also the means 'y +hih they reeive dividends and also

the mean 'y +hih they vote in shareholder resolutions. 6ou ould use the same "or

the distri'ution o" 'onds or "or any proo"-o"-o+nership on an asset using the very

same logi. So/ that opens up the possi'ility o" having Bitoin orporations that/

essentially are listed in the 'lo hain/ are traded as 'itoins are ehanged and

the sto is trans"era'le in the same +ay that you an send 'itoin to someone.

hat,s a really "asinating onept that ould really develop into a +hole ne+ level

o" eonomy a'ove Bitoin.

"M* Do you guys +anna tal spei"ially a'out +hat some o" these altoins are and

+hat are their "eatures 'eause $ have a list o" them that +e ould go through.

ABL* 6eah let,s do that and then $0d lie to play - $ atually reahed out to someone

+ho0s 2ust a'out to start an alt-oin hain and $ ased him 'asially to pith it to the

listeners and so $0d lie to play that and in the "uture/ atually/ i" you0re starting an

altoin hain and you0d lie to see +hat people thin o" it/ a good +ay to do that+ould 'e to send us a ;:-K: seond pith essentially "or +hat you0re trying to

aomplish +ith your altoin hain and +e0ll play it and see +hat people thin.

"M* So/ oay/ every'ody no+s a'out Bitoin. $0ll 2ust read some o" these 'asi

parameters a'out Bitoin and 'y the +ay/ $0m getting this "rom a thread on the

Bitointal "orums and it,s also availa'le at the domain ne+'itoins.om/ +hih 2ust

points to this thread. So i" any'ody +ants lie a really 8ui run-do+n o" all these

di""erent inds o" oins/ you an "ind it here. So/ there0s Bitoin/ they have a 'lo/

its generated every =: minutes/ there0s going to 'e 9= million oins/ the di""iultad2usts every 9:=; 'los and the hashing algorithm is dou'le SHA-9; and then

the re+ard/ initially 'e"ore it halved +as : oins per 'lo/ 'ut sine then it has ut

in hal"/ so no+ its 9 'itoins per 'lo. Liteoin is pro'a'ly the most popular o" the

altoins and it,s not the oldest/ 'ut it is/ "or some reason/ the one that has gotten

the most tration and the main di""erene 'et+een liteoins and 'itoins - Eh 'y the

+ay/ also +ith liteoins/ it,s the only one that,s seen a really signi"iant prie


19/27

inrease over one dollar. $ts trading at around < S dollars right no+/ $ 'elieve "or

liteoins. So +ith liteoins/ there0s a 'lo generated every 9 and a hal" minutes

instead o" every =: minutes +ith 'itoins. here are going to 'e 9 million oins

availa'le/ so that,s < times as many liteoins as there are 'itoins and the di""iult

ad2usts also every 9:=; 'los 'ut that taes plae "aster every ouple o" days/

instead o" every ouple o" +ees +ith Bitoin and the hashing algorithm is di""erentthan Bitoin/ +hih is $ thin an important de"ining "eature o" Liteoin. he hashing

algorithm is srypt/ instead o" SHA-9; and +hat this means is that +ith liteoins/

you an,t really use AS$Cs to mine liteoins and there0s a smaller di""erene 'et+een

mining liteoins +ith a CP and a graphis ard. Basially this means that Liteoin

mining is pro'a'ly going to 'e more aessi'le to people +ho don,t have AS$Cs or

don,t +ant to get AS$Cs. $t,s going to 'e pro'a'ly a more distri'uted net+or in

terms o" the hashing po+er 'eing distri'uted among di""erent people/ and the

'arriers to entry "or getting into Liteoin mining 'eing a lot lo+er. $ thin this really

appeals to a lot o" people and as +e0ve seen the di""iulty o" the Bitoin net+or rise

very high as a lot o" 'itoins have 'een mined and 'itoins 'eome really popular

and a lot o" people deide to try mining and also as some o" the AS$Cs miners ome

online +ith Bitoin mining/ the di""iulty has gone really high "or Bitoin and so a lot

o" people +ho +ere previously mining 'itoins +ith !Ps or +ith even CPs have

s+ithed to mining liteoins and sine the di""iulty o" the liteoins net+or is a lot

lo+er/ it an 'e more pro"ita'le to mine liteoins +ith the same e8uipment that one

might other+ise use to mine 'itoins and then ehange the liteoins into 'itoins

or may'e hold on to them. 7e0re seeing a lot o" people do that/ so $ guess that,s it

a'out liteoins and then $ +ould say ameoin is pro'a'ly the net most popular

type o" alt-oin and as Andreas ind o" gave a run-do+n o" ameoin/ it has these

interesting appliations lie 'eing a'le to reate DS system or potentially 'e used

"or sto o+nership in ompanies. here0s PPoins and PP/ $ thin/ stands "or peer-to-peer or some people all it lie/ people oins. he thing a'out PPoins is they are

'ased on proo"-o"-stae instead o" proo"-o"-+or. So Bitoin/ Liteoin/ most o" the

other oins/ are 'ased on proo" o" +or/ you have to do +or/ solve a pro'lem/

that,s ho+ the 'los are reated. 7ith PPoin/ its proo" o" stae and $ admit/ $ don,t

ompletely understand that/ 'ut +hat $ an understand or grasp in my laymen0s

perspetive is that/ holding oins/ lie the people +ho have the most oins/ that,s

+hat reates the net+or instead o" solving pro'lems/ doing +or/ hashing and $

ould 'e ompletely +rong on that/ so $0m not really sure. Does any'ody else no+

anything a'out PPoin spei"ially4

AMA* $ thin you desri'ed the proo" o" stae orretly. %ssentially it allo+s people

+ho have oins to mine oins/ "rom +hat $ understand. hat does reate some

philosophial issues "or some people. En the one hand/ Bitoin is elusive to

people +ho have serious hard+are/ on the other hand proo" o" stae reates a

situation +here the po+er la+ gets ampli"ied/ right4 he rih get riher.


20/27

"M* .. and that,s another interesting point 'eause a lot o" these oins do have/ sort

o"/ eonomi ideologies 'uilt into them. Bitoin doesn,t neessarily and neither does

really Liteoin/ eept may'e the idea that mining is going to 'e more aessi'le to

di""erent people/ 'ut $ don,t even thin that +as really in mind +hen Bitoin +asreated. $ don,t thin any'ody really "oresa+ AS$Cs/ they +ere ind o" a disruptive

tehnology. But +ith some o" these other oins/ "or instane/ reioin +hih +e

taled a'out last +ee. hey have this demurrage "ee and this also/ sort o" ideology

saying that this is "or the +oring lass/ it +ill not a""et people +ho are spending

most o" their inome and ind o" living payhe to payhe 'ut it +ill a""et those

+ho +ould lie to hoard the urreny and it disourages hoarding. $t,s interesting to

see some o" these di""erent ideas that are ind o" 'uilt into the ode o" some o"

these altoins.

AMA* 7hat it sho+s is that the innovation has 'arely started. $ mean/ here you an

atually t+ea the maroeonomi parameters o" an entire eonomy 'y reating a

urreny that has di""erent harateristis. Ene o" the "asinating suggestions $

reently sa+/ +as the idea o" DAoin and DAoin is a proo" o" stae system

+here the proo" o" stae is your partiipation in the homo sapiens speies/ so at

'irth a sample o" DA "rom every individual +ho is 'orn on this planet/ the DA

itsel" gets enoded into the 'lo hain as proo" o" stae/ the individual DA o" a

uni8ue human 'eing and that gives them aess to Bitoin at 'irth or DAoin at

'irth/ +hih they essentially have mined 'y 'eing 'orn. So the entire homo sapiens

speies has stae/ individually/ in DAoin simply 'y 'eing 'orn. $t has a "ied upper

limit o" issuane o" ourse. Currently at 2ust over > 'illion souls and it isautomatially (ad2usted) "or population gro+th and population deline. So it,s

atually a "asinating onept/ and again that sho+s that the innovation here has

only started. All o" these oins and ryptographi urrenies/ in general are money

AP$s. hey allo+ you to program eonomies and people are 'eginning to/ in "at do

that.

"M* hat is so interesting. $0m 2ust thining o" ho+ +ould geneti ode 'e translated

into the 'lo hain. $0m sure there0s some +ay to do it 'ut..

AMA* 6ou0re "inger printing/ not the entire ode/ 'ut essentially you0re "inger

printing enough marers that you have statistial uni8ueness. So i" you an a 9;

'it num'er that is guaranteed to 'e uni8ue 2ust 'eause o" the vastness o" the

spae/ you an also pi 9; DA marers in a human genome and 'e almost

guaranteed that no t+o people +ill have the eat same marers.


21/27

"M* Lie a uni8ue little sno+-"lae. Gust to 8uily go over some o" the remaining

oins that are in this thread here. here0s Devoin/ and $ don,t no+ that muh

a'out Devoin 'ut as $ understand it/ the re+ards per 'lo are really high. here

are :/::: oins instead o" : oins per 'lo/ initially. As $ understand it/ they havesomething to do +ith developing pro2ets/ lie they0re almost "or testing di""erent

so"t+are pro2ets.

ABL* 6eah $0ve heard Devoin re"erred to as the test net.

AMA* $t,s also ro+d "unding 'eause the oins atually reirulate their value into

re+ards "or the developers. So $ 'elieve a'out =: perent o" the transation "ee

goes to "urther development o" the so"t+are. So the oin is sel"-"inaning.

"M* ..then there0s erraoin. erraoin is a relative ne+omer. here0s gonna 'e


22/27

o" individuals have pre-mined a lot o" oins 'e"ore releasing the system pu'lially.

7ith ovaoin that +as eatly +hat happened. here +ere a ==:/::: oins that

+ere pre-mined and then it +as laimed that they +ere destroyed/ although it,s not

really lear +hether they +ere atually destroyed or ho+ that ould even our.

ovaoin is 'eing traded on BC% and $ remem'er +hen that happened/ people

+ere really eited a'out it so $ don,t no+/ may'e it0ll go some+here/ may'e not.$t,s ind o" eiting to see +here these go 'ut pre-mining sams are pro'a'ly going

to ontinue 'eing a pro'lem +ith these altoin hains.

ABL* $ thin one o" the most interesting things a'out the altoin hains is that they

almost all have a "ounder and that is something +here it,s true +ith Bitoin. Bitoin

does tehnially have a "ounder in Satoshi/ 'ut he0s not around/ he0s not someone

+ho0s advoating "or it.

"M* So there are a 'unh o" other oins 'ut $ thin "or no+/ +e0ve pretty muh

overed the main ones or the most important ones and again/ i" you +anna see

more a'out this and i" you +ant some lins to "ollo+ up to do some researh on any

o" these altoins/ you an he at ne+'itoins.om.

ABL* .. and no+ let,s hear "rom the reator o" Hayeoin.

Ale%Merced* Hey every'ody/ this is Ale Mered. $0m a 'ig "an o" Bitoin/ $0m a 'ig

"an o" the idea o" tehnology/ things lie sea steading/ Bitoin. he reason +hy $0m

reating an altoin/ $0m really/ atually +oring o"" o" the Liteoin ode. $0m doing it

more to ommemorate an eonomist 'y the name o" riedrih Haye/ he +rote a lot

a'out ompeting urrenies one upon a time. So/ +hat $0m trying to do is reate a

ne+ oin alled Hayeoin. More o" a novelty oin/ more "or those +ho ould pay

homage to riedrih Haye/ although urrently $0m still +oring on "iguring out the

+hole genesis 'lo thing. So i" anyone +ould lie to help me omplete Hayeoin

'y helping me omplete the genesis 'lo/ part o" the ode/ "eel "ree to get in touh

+ith me at alemered.om. (My email is) alemeredFalemered.om.

ABL* he interesting thing to eep in mind here is that there0s 2ust no 'arrier to

entry +hen it omes to reating these altoin hains. 6ou don,t even have to have a

really/ terri'ly mareta'le idea. 6ou 2ust have to deide to do it and i" people thin

that your idea is good "or +hatever reason then you an have suess +ith that. $0m


23/27

not sure i" the Hayeoin is going to have a lot o" suess 'ut it,s an interesting

mareting onept/ to say the least.

"M* 6eah $0m almost "eeling ind o" a"raid i" you invite people to promote their

altoins on this sho+/ you might get inundated +ith a 'unh o" people promoting

these di""erent altoins.

ABL* $0m very interested to see ho+ it shaes out/ lie you said. $ reahed out to

Ale a'out this 'eause $ sa+ a thread +here he +as starting this oin and $ +as

lie/ Hey/ 0ause he +asn,t announing any details a'out this and $ +as lie/ Pith

it to me and +e0ll tal a'out it and see. $ thin that the more people +e have

taling a'out this/ i" it,s a 'ad idea then learly they0re gonna get "eed'a that

they0re not gonna 'e very happy a'out it. So $ thin it,s gonna 'e ind o" sel"-

seleting people +ho really thin that their idea "or an altoin hain is a really/ really

good idea that people +ill 'uy into. hose are the people that +e0ll hear "rom.

"M* .. and this sort o"/ 'ar gets higher as time goes on 'eause/ (they) see a lot o"

sams/ they see a lot o" oins that "ail or get a'andoned and they 'eome really/

really septial. Eh/ oay. Ho+ is your altoin di""erent than all the rest o" those

altoins/ right4

ABL* $t,s 2ust +hat +e0ve 'een saying. $" you an,t 'e a shiny eample/ 'e a horri'le

+arning. 6ou don,t really have a hoie one +ay or the other/ it,s gonna happen the

+ay it,s gonna happen 'ut you serve a purpose either +ay to the ommunity.

"M* Do you guys "ind some o" the names "or these altoins/ ind o" "unny4 Lie "or

instane/ ovaoin sounds lie ovoaine/ PPoin 2ust sounds really "unny to me.

ABL* here are a "e+ out there that don,t have oin in the name/ right4

"M* 6es/ there atually are. here0s !eist !eld or ene'ri. hose are (a ouple o")/

ind o" lie dead or dying oins.


24/27

ABL* he lo+ 'arrier to entry/ again/ $0m very/ very eited to see +hat people

ome up +ith and ind o" +hat taes o"" 'eause $ have my idea o" +hat seems lie

a good plan "or Bitoin and "ranly/ $ thin that Bitoin does a "airly good 2o' o"

serving those needs. Again/ $0m 2ust very urious to +hat omes out.

"M* So/ personal 8uestion* do you guys have any altoins yourselves or are you

invested in them at all/ are you mining altoins4 ell me more a'out that.

ABL* $ +athed Solidoin eplode a'out a year ago and that +as the "irst oin that $

paid attention to. $ didn,t have any o" them/ 'ut $ ind o" 2ust +athed ho+ it

happened and $ said/ you no+ +hat/ it seems lie i" there0s ever a reason "or me to

get involved +ith altoins/ $0ll pro'a'ly 'e a'le to "igure that out pretty 8uily. So/

$0m 2ust gonna let it 'e and see +hat happens +ith this spae/ and it seems lie a lot

has happened +ith the spae sine $ haven,t 'een paying attention.

"M* he only real altoin that $0m super-interested in is Liteoin and $ admit $0m

"eeling proud 'eause $ got into Liteoin +hen they +ere lie I ents eah/ and the

ehange rate +ith liteoins to 'itoins +as lie :.::I liteoins per 'itoin/ and

sine then/ the value relative to 'itoin has inreased a'out ten"old and the prie o"

liteoins in S dollars has inreased a'out a =:: "old roughly. So/ $ +as "eeling really

good a'out that and then $ also used Liteoin as a +ay to start getting interested in

mining and $ have 'een mining liteoins "or a little +hile no+. So/ may'e at some

point/ +e an tal a'out that on the sho+.

ABL* 6eah/ $0d love to tal a'out that 0ause mining is one o" those things +here $0ve

looed at it a ouple o" times and every time $ do/ it,s lie/ +ell that loos hard or

lie/ $0ll do+nload a miner/ installation and then $0d need to do port "or+arding and

it,s lie uhm/ that looks hard.

"M* $t is. here0s lot o" little parameters to "i and get t+eaed and optimi&ed.

Luily there are lots o" guides and people are very generous +ith their in"ormation.

A lot o" this stu"" is availa'le online i" you 2ust do a little researh on it/ 'ut there0s

de"initely not a user manual a'out ho+ to mine di""erent oins and do it e""iiently

and there0s no one +ay to do it/ 'ut that,s ind o" part o" the "un too.


25/27

ABL* $t,s 2ust this 7ild 7est thing5 'eause it,s hard/ there0s a little 'it more

opportunity there than i" it +asn,t hard.

"M* 6eah/ a'solutely.

ABL* !reat/ +ell that,s a'out all the time +e have "or today. hans "or 2oining me

again "or Let,s al Bitoin/ 'oth Andreas and Stephanie.

"M* han you.

AMA* han you.

ABL* %ven though Bitoin has no ontrolling authority and even though Bitoin is an

international urreny/ the S legislative 'ody is the elephant in the room and a

ma2or hurdle "or the nasent urreny to ontend +ith. $ sat do+n +ith ommunity

round ta'le mem'er %li&a'eth Ploshay "or some advie on ho+ S iti&ens an do

their part and help our representatives represent us.

Eli&a'ethPloshay* Hi/ my name0s %li&a'eth Ploshay and $0m oming "resh "rom

7ashington/ DC +here $ previously served as the sheduler and legislative

orrespondent "or Chie" Deputy Ma2ority 7hip Congressman Peter G. @osam. $0m

no+ honored to 'e a mem'er o" this peer-to-peer Bitoin ommunity. Coming "rom

7ashington/ DC/ $0ve seen that there0s a huge in"ormation gap and mem'ers o" the

"ederal government and also stae governments need to have (an idea) o" all the

positive aspets o" the Bitoin urreny 'e"ore it,s too late. As mem'ers o" the

Bitoin ommunity/ +e really need to get on the edge o" the in"ormation gap here

and +or to eduate our mem'ers o" Congress/ ho+ Bitoin is a huge asset/ not

only on a personal li'erty level 'ut also to the eonomy. 6ou/ as a mem'er o" the

Bitoin ommunity/ have a lear opportunity to/ in a tangi'le +ay/ reah out to amem'er o" Congress and 'eome a via'le in"ormation soure "or them to let them

no+ a'out the positive elements o" the Bitoin urreny. irst and "oremost/ one o"

the most 'i-partisan issues right no+/ to date/ on an eonomi standpoint "or the S

House @epresentatives/ the Senate and the %eutive Branhes - support "or small

'usinesses. Aross the politial aisles/ no+ 'usinesses is an important issue and

+e0ve seen that/ "or instane/ last year 'oth Cham'ers o" Congress and the

%eutive Branh put "or+ard to 2ump start our Businesses Startups At (H@ I;:;)


26/27

to enhane the a'ility o" small 'usinesses to inrease apital. o+ +e no+ in the

Bitoin ommunity/ that the 'est +ay to do this is atually through the Bitoin

urreny/ so reahing out to a mem'er and highlighting the importane o"

supporting small 'usinesses through Bitoin urreny/ that,s one thing. Also/ 2ust

taling +ith your mem'er o" Congress a'out the onveniene o" Bitoin and ho+ it

does represent ingenuity. Bitoin uts do+n not only on/ transation osts 'ut alsoits 2ust a onvenient +ay "or 'usinesses to proess your ustomers and also to get

people in and out o" stores 8uily and another thing too is/ highlighting 2ust ho+

Bitoin is an international urreny no+ and +ith a gro+ing eonomy and 2ust a

gro+ing glo'al nature o" our soiety and 'usinesses these days/ Bitoin is truly

gonna help 'usinesses and in turn again/ help our eonomy and eep the S on the

maret in a glo'al +ay. Another thing too/ to highlight to a mem'er o" Congress is

2ust onnet it to home/ let them no+ that Bitoin is 'eoming a household name/

spei"ially you an 2ust 'ring out something to them that/ 2ust this past +ee/

PayPal President spoe on Bloom'erg ne+s/ to highlight that PayPal is even

onsidering using the Bitoin urreny. $t,s important "or you as onstituent to let

your mem'er o" Congress no+ that Bitoin is something that,s ative in the

Congressional distrit. o+/ $ thin/ "inally/ you an highlight i" you any 'usiness in

your distrit or i" you have a 'usiness in this Congressional distrit/ let your mem'er

o" Congress no+ a'out it and let them no+ a'out any poliy they have to+ards

Bitoin urreny or any more regulation/ ho+ it +ill impat you as a voter in their

distrit. So/ those are some ideas/ spei"ially adding a'out ho+ you an onnet

Bitoin to your mem'er o" Congress 0ause un"ortunately there (are) plenty o"

mem'ers o" the House @epresentatives in S Senate and "or that matter/ loal

governments +ho don,t no+ +hat Bitoin is. So you +anna 2ust let them no+ that

it,s a via'le urreny and that you as a onstituent in +hatever apaity are ated

and this is a onern that you have.

ABL* hans "or tuning in to %pisode I o" Let,s al Bitoin. 7hether you lied/

lovedm or hated the sho+/ +e +anna hear +hat you thin. Please send all this and

your "eed'a/ omments/ and 8uestions to adamFletstal'itoin.om. $" you0re lie

me and 2ust an,t get enough in"ormation or perspetive on Bitoin/ he out our

daily ne+spaper at thedaily'itoin.om/ +here you0ll "ind the 'est ne+s/ presenting

artiles and arguments "rom all sides o" the issue. hans to Paul Hughes/ Andreas

M. Antonopoulos/ Dr. Stephanie Murphy/ and %li&a'eth Ploshay "or +riting ontent

"or this sho+. Musi "or this episode +as provided 'y Gared @u'ens/ athanielCastro/ and E+lsley/ you an "ind lins to their +or at letstal'itoin.ommusi.

7e0ll 'e 'a +ith %pisode < o" Let,s al Bitoin releasing late on Saturday/ the


27/27

Transcription by MethodMan, released under the Creative Commons License 3.0

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Let's Talk Bitcoin, episode 3, "The Future of Money"