July 9, 1975 Fort McPherson, N.W.T. Volume 12 Ft McPherson... · 2015-01-29 · Fort McPherson, N.W.T. PROCEEDINGS AT COMMUNITY HEARING Volume 12 The 2003 electronic version prepared

MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE INQUIRY

IN THE MATTER OF THE APPLICATIONS BY EACH OF

(a) CANADIAN ARCTIC GAS PIPELINE LIMITED FOR ARIGHT-OF-WAY THAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS

CROWN LANDS WITHIN THE YUKON TERRITORY ANDTHE NORTHWEST TERRITORIES, and

(b) FOOTHILLS PIPE LINES LTD. FOR A RIGHT-OF-WAYTHAT MIGHT BE GRANTED ACROSS CROWN LANDS

WITHIN THE NORTHWEST TERRITORIESFOR THE PURPOSE OF A PROPOSED MACKENZIE VALLEY PIPELINE

and

IN THE MATTER OF THE SOCIAL, ENVIRONMENTALAND ECONOMIC IMPACT REGIONALLY OF THE CONSTRUCTION,OPERATION AND SUBSEQUENT ABANDONMENT OF THE ABOVE

PROPOSED PIPELINE

(Before the Honourable Mr. Justice Berger, Commissioner)

July 9, 1975Fort McPherson, N.W.T.

PROCEEDINGS AT COMMUNITY HEARING

Volume 12

The 2003 electronic version prepared from the original transcripts byAllwest Reporting Ltd.

Vancouver, B.C. V6B 3A7 CanadaPh: 604-683-4774 Fax: 604-683-9378

www.allwestbc.com

APPEARANCES

Prof. Michael Jackson for Mackenzie ValleyPipeline Inquiry;

Mr. Darryl Carter for Canadian ArcticGas Pipeline Lim-ited;

Mr. Glen W. Bell for Northwest Terri-tories, IndianBrotherhood andMetis Association ofthe Northwest Terri-tories;

Mr. Ellwood for Foothills Pipe-lines Ltd.;

INDEX OF WITNESSES Page No.

NEIL COLIN 1067,1011PHILLIP BLAKE 1077JOHN ITSI 1088,1105ELIZABETH COLIN 1097DORIS ITSI 1109RICHARD KOE 1112BOB SIMPSON 1116GLADYS LUXIE (NERYSOO) 1120RICHARD FRANCIS 1124MARY WILSON 1127MRS. JIMMY THOMPSON 1128RODDY PETERS 1130SARAH FRANCIS 1134MARY KENDI 1134WILLIAM NERYSOO 1137 JJOHN BLAKE 1139MARY NEYENDO 1147CHIEF JOHNNY KAY 1131

July 9, 1975Fort McPherson, N.W.T.

(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)THE COMMISSIONER: Well, I

think ladies and gentlemen, we will call the Hearing toorder today. And give to anyone this afternoon anopportunity to speak who wishes to. And some of thosewho spoke yesterday said they were going to havesomething further to say today. And I want to hearfrom them, as well as from those of you who haven't yethad an opportunity to say anything.

MR. FRANCIS: Good afternoon.THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Bell?MR. BELL: Perhaps this would

be a good opportunity just to take a few minutes andput our land use maps in. For the purpose of doingthis, I would like the assistance of Neil Colin who hasalready been sworn.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes.MR. BELL: You were involved

in the preparation of the maps that we see on the wallhere?

NEIL COLIN: Resumed.MR. COLIN: Yes.Q Could you tell us what

the extent of your involvement was and what you did?A Well, first of all, I

work for Indian Brotherhood for about a year and a half.And when I was hired, I was hired as a community devel-

Allwest Reporting Ltd.Burnaby, B.C. 1061

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opment. And later, they wanted me to do a land researchwith the Loucheux people here in Fort McPherson.

Q Did you interview any ofthe trappers whose trap lines are recorded on the maptoday?

A Yes.Q Do you remember who you

interviewed?A Well, I interview 27

people altogether.Q Well, perhaps then

before I ask you to describe the map, you could go upto the map and, if you have a pointer--okay. Could yougo up to the map then please?

A Well, first of all, Mr.Berger, Chief and the Band Council and ladies andgentlemen. I did this work as working for IndianBrotherhood as a land research. And I did 27 people.

THE INTERPRETER: Neil, couldyou translate for yourself in Loucheux, if you could?It would save a lot of time here.

A Okay, I'll try. First Iwill say it in English. This is the map that I did withthe Loucheux people on to Dawson City inYukon. It's down here and this is the Peel Rivergoing down to Mackenzie. And there's Arctic ocean uphere. And then it goes as far as Anderson River, and upto ahead of Little Wooden River, and ahead ofArctic Red River. And just below Old Crow, where the


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boundary line, were Alaska is. And the people travel inthe Arctic Ocean towards as far as Herschel Island. Andit's too high to put it up so we'll put it down. Andthose black marks you see, that's where people travel inthe river.

And all these little blackmarks towards Richardson Mountain, down to ArcticOcean, every little black mark, I guess, is a river.Like Stoney Creek, Vittrewka River, Road River, TrailCreek, Snake River, Bonnet Plane River, Hart ver,Blackstone River, and ahead of Peel River, on the otherside of Richardson Mountain, there is Porcupine BearRiver, Johnson Creek, Eagle River, Rock River andbeside that, here is Fort McPherson and this is theMackenzie Delta, Going into Arctic Ocean.

You can see Fort McPhersonhere, Aklavik here, Inuvik here, and Arctic Red River,And this is Mackenzie River.

And I did this mapping withthe people, mostly old people and sometimes when I mapthem, they don't understand. They can't read the map.But they tell me where they've been, and I ask them,suppose I ask them this is Eagle River. And this isSnare River and this is Rock River. By that, they showme where they have been.

I also travel myself a fewplaces, other sites as far as Eagle River, Fish Lake,Porcupine, way up the Peel River, and all around RatRiver area. And a few places I know, as far as about150 miles up the Peel River. I know myself. And I


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have been travelling with dog team myself. And I havebeen moving around in the bush, long ago when they usedto move in the bush with their families. And I know alot of the creeks. That is, they name them--they onlycall them in Loucheux. By that, I know how to do this.

Like one place is, some oldpeople as far as they remember is in 1800. I knowthere is one old man, my father. He is born 1884. Andwhen, he was young boy, about 1893, 1894, he said himand his father and his mother went up past Inuvik, wentup through here to Sitidgi Lake in 1890-something. Andthey used to live around there with rabbits and moose,and then they come back one winter.

He say that most of thepeople go up to the Peel River in the Yukon.

MR. BELL: Can you tell usabout how many people are represented by this map? Howmany trappers have their lines shown on this map?

A Well, I did 27 people.Q So that's all of them,

then?A Yes. But they all go-it

seems to be, same place those days. Everybody don'tsome people don't, 27 people don't scatter all over.They all go together. And they have a head chief, andmostly they do it, they live around ahead of EagleRiver, Or maybe, one winter, they live around FishLake. Maybe another winter they live around HungryLake. Or Hart River, and their own Blackstone River.

And then they make a trip down


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to Dawson those days.One thing I know--like

yesterday, when old Andrew Kunnizzi was telling hisstory. He said he was--he came from Dawson in 1920,1921 around here someplace towards the Dawson. That'swhere he was raised. From there they came over to FortMcPherson.

And these, people on the map,they hunt, they trap and they fish. And they've beenall over in Yukon, up the Peel, all over the place.

And after each one of them, Iexplain to them, what this map is about. And I askthem if they see any white man signs any place in thecountry, wherever they've been.

They say they see only some--some people say they've seen white man signs. Thatis, that is at Destruction City, it's here. That isone we call "Trih zhit tagoodii" in Loucheux.

They also say they saw awhite man sign at Eagle River, and Destruction City.And I ask them, how come they're there. And they alltell me they found gold in Klondike in 1898. And theminers, used to go up the Peel River and they used togo up by Destruction City. And one time, they froze inand they had to camp there. And then after the winter,they went over to Bear River and down to Fort Yukon.

And I tell some people goeven around here, up just straight up from PointSeparation in this country. I know, far as they go,that's from Arctic Red River, is Anderson River.


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First of all, I would like todo a--there is all kinds of it here. First of all, Iwill take one of this. This is the one an that camefrom Dawson in 1920-1921, but he didn't last aroundDawson area. And he moved in from Dawson to FortMcPherson in 1920 and 21. His name is Andrew Kunnizzand he is sitting there.

Maybe I could read some ofthese, his story here. He said, "I start trapping whenI was fifteen years old, with my parents at ChapmanLake, Yukon Territory.

We do nothing by hunting andsell meat, moose, sheep and caribou in Dawson City. Inspring we do hunt live fox for long time. We live fortwenty years around Dawson, Yukon Territory area. Wedo all kinds of work around Dawson. I cut wood,deckhand on steamboat, mining for gold.

I look after cattles, also Ilook after pigs. Helping blacksmith, sawmill, help tobuild boat and how to build steer wheeler, steam boat.

I do fish in Dawson in thefish wheel to catch King salmon. I hunt in winter, andin summer whenever I get a chance. I went to FortMcPherson from Dawson by dog team in 1914, withR.C.M.P. patrol.

I was just a kid that time.We meet some people around Wind River from McPhersonalso 35 miles above McPherson.

We pass spring in differentplace almost every spring in Yukon. Sometime at Chapman


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Lake, Hart River, Blackstone River, Yukon Territory.Head of Ogilvie River , Yukon Territory.

I trapped in 1923--one river.Bonnet Plume River, Yukon Territory. We built skinboat 1923 spring,-- mouth of Mountain Creek, YukonTerritory. 1924, winter, I went back to BlackstoneRiver by dog team. 1925 to 1926, I stayed aroundChapman Lake to hunt, trap, sell meat to traders inDawson and Yukon Territory.

Winter 1927, I went back toMcPherson by dog team by Wough Creek, then to WindRiver in Yukon Territory.

Spring we built skin boatbelow Cannon. From Cannon, we drift to McPherson in1927. Now today they use mercury. 1928, after newyear, we move by dog team to hunt, trap around HungryLake and Big Wind River, Yukon Territory. 1928 we goto Yukon to, in winter, to trap and hunt until 1935..

From 1935, I start makingliving around Fort McPherson on Delta. I start trading1936, every winter I get meat by hunting through RatRiver, N.W.T. Also I fish at Road River in summer, fortwo summers, by fish wheel, 1938.

1939, Eagle River, wintertime, hunt, trap, live in bush. 1939-40, he done thesame thing in Eagle River. 1941, he done the samething in Hungry Lake area. 1942, Caribou River, YukonTerritory. He done the same thing, hunting, trapping,living in the bush. 1943, Rock River.

Just to hunt, we went to Yukon


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in 1944." Fish lake, he mean around here. There's Oldcrow there and there is Richardson Mountain. That's thearea he used to hunt for caribou.

"In 1945 winter, we went toRat River to hunt caribou. In 1946 winter, we went toCaribou Mountain, Caribou Creek, we just hunt and livethere." There's Caribou Creek here. Caribou River,hits the Peel. And Caribou Mountain around this area.

"1947 we hunt around RockRiver, Yukon Territory. 1948 we done the same thingaround Vittrewka River. That's the last time I go tomountain in winter. I live in the Delta since that time.

I trap in the Delta in springtime. In 1914 I went to Whitehorse, Yukon Territory insummer. I took from McPherson to Mayo, Yukon Territoryby dog team, 1942. I killed grizzly bear, Stoney Creekand Satah Creek. A few I kill around Black River,Yukon Territory. I was to Fort Good Hope in 1944 summerby boat.

I was down to Circel fromDawson 1917. I hunt for beaver, sheep, moose." Thisis just one of the old timer

Q Thank you very much,Neil. I take it that all of the trap lines shown onthis map are for people who live in Fort McPherson?

A Yes.Q And there's none from

any., other place, like Aklavik or Arctic Red?A Well, there's--I know,

Frederick Reelan(?) from Aklavik. He was doing the Aklavik.


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And I done three people from Inuvik.Q Those three people are

marked on there?A Pardon?Q Those three people are

shown on the map?A Yes, yes.Q All right. Fine, well

thank you very much then.A Yes. Could I mention

one more thing? These little marks, to the shape of atriangle, it means that they have been camping there.Where people used to camp for years and years andyears. Some of them are square with a black dot in themiddle, that is where they had a cabin. But somecabins, I guess all of the cabin is rotten, nothingleft. Just a foundation.

There is lots of people inthe Loucheux people know all of this Delta. And theyfish all over the place and they even take lots offishes, from the Mackenzie River. Also in Peel Riverand also on the different kind of lakes. Like one oldman there, George Vittrewka. He said he know abouthalf of Delta. And whenever he fly across to Inuvik byplane, any place he looks through the window, he says,that's the place I've been.

And people travel fromMcPherson to Dawson to Arctic, Red River, to Aklavik,down to Old Crow, all of this black mark. At the headof Arctic Red River, across from Point Separation to


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Sitidgi Lake, down the coast, down to Herschel Island.And I know Peter Tharson made a trip from HerschelIsland to Victoria Island. But it's not on the map.It's on the paper down here.

There is one tell me. I mightas well mention his name is William MacDonald. He trapin the Yukon. He says, it doesn't matter wherever yougo. You think nobody ever been in that creek or thatcountry. He says, you have to see the ice. Somebodybeen there. He said he see a sign there. That's all.

Q Well, thank you verymuch, Neil. I should point out that the scale of themap is 8 miles to the inch. And that they have theusual legend which explains that the intensity of theuse is indicated by the thickness of the line.

I think these maps should bemarked as an exhibit. And perhaps the map biographysheet that Neil Colin was referring to.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, theywill be marked. The map as an exhibit, and thebiography sheet numbered A to the exhibit.(LAND USE, MAP MARKED EXHIBIT C-31)(BIOGRAPHY SHEET FOR LAND USE MAP MARKED EXHIBIT C-31A)(PLACE NAMES ON MAP MARKED EXHIBIT C-31B)

THE COMMISSIONER: Mr. Bell,how many people were interviewed--

MR. BELL: According to-THE COMMISSIONER: --about

how many were interviewed?A Well, before I said I


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interviewed 27 people.THE COMMISSIONER: 27?A Yes: And I could have

done more.THE COMMISSIONER: And those

represent people who trapped in the old days, andpeople who are still trapping and hunting and fishingtoday?

A Right, absolutely right.THE COMMISSIONER: And you

took as a sample of the extent of the use of the landterritory is that what you did?

A Yes.THE COMMISSIONER: The map

says that the 27 people represent 30 per cent of the,of the men of native origin who are over 30.

MR. BELL: I believe that iswhat it says on the legend, yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: Right, nowI understand that. Thank you.

PHILLIP BLAKE Sworn.A: Mr. Berger, my name is

Phillip Blake and I am a Treaty Indian from FortMcPherson. I have worked as a social worker here inFort McPherson here for the past five and a half years.Now, before I go any further on, I would personallylike to welcome you to Fort McPherson. I hope youenjoy your stay here.

THE COMMISSIONER: We shouldhave won that ball game.


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A: First, I would like tosay I am not an old man, but I have seen many changeslife. Fifteen years ago, most of what you see as FortMcPherson did not exist. Take a look around thecommunity now. And you will start to get an idea ofwhat has happened to the Indian people here over thepast few years.

Look at the housing wheretransient Government staff live. And look at thehousing where the Indian people live. Look at whichhouses are connected to the utilidor. Look at how theschool and hostel, the R.C.M.P. and government staffhouses are right in the center of town. Dividing theIndian people into two sides.

Look at where the Bay storeis, right on top of the highest point of land.

Mr. Berger, do you think thatthis is the way the Indian people chose to have thiscommunity? Do you think the people here had any voice inplanning this community? Do you think they would haveplanned it so that it would divide them, pardon me.

Do you think they would planit so that it divided them and gave them a poorerstandard than the transient whites who come in,supposedly to help them? Take a look at the schoolhere. Try to find anything that makes it a place whereIndian values traditions, and Indian culture isrespected.

It could be a school in thesuburbs of Edmonton, Toronto or Vancouver. Do you think


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Indian people would have chosen a building like this asa way to teach their children how to be proud of theirIndian heritage?

Do you think Indian peoplechose to have their children taught that the only wayto survive in the future is to become like the whiteman?

Look around you. Look at thisbuilding. Find out who the teachers are. Find out whatthey teach our children. Find out what regulationsthere are in this school, find out who decides theseregulations. Who hires the teachers and who fires they.

This school is just a symbolof white domination and control. It is a part of asystem set up to destroy Indian culture and to destroyour pride in our Indian heritage.

It is only part of thatsystem. Look at some of the other parts. Do you thinkpeople chose to live in rental houses owned by thegovernment, instead of in houses they built forthemselves and owned by themselves? Do you think theychose to have a system of justice which often they cannot understand and which does not allow them to helptheir own people, deal with their own problems?

A system which punishes theIndians for stealing from the Bay, but does not punishthe Bay for stealing from the Indians? Do you think thatthey chose to become cheap labour for oil companies,construction companies and government? Instead ofworking for themselves and developing their own economy


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in their own way?In short, Mr. Berger, can you

or anyone else really believe that we Indian peopleare; now living the way we have chosen to live? Can youreally believe that we have chosen to have high ratesof alcoholism, murder, suicide and social breakdown? Doyou think we have chosen to become beggars in our ownhomeland?

Mr. Berger, you are wellaware that hundreds of years ago, in southern Canadaand in the United States, many Indian civilizationswere destroyed. In some cases, this was done simply bykilling off the India; Indian people, I should say, whooccupied the land the land that was valuable to whitesettlers.

In other cases, it was doneby restricting the Indians to small reserves where theycould no longer hunt, fish and make a living from theirland. In all cases, it was pretty clear that whateverthe white man wanted, the white man got.

When he wanted greater landfor farming, he cleared off the trees and he clearedoff the Indians. When he wanted to dig the gold, orminerals from the land, he killed the Indians who triedto defend their own land.

In James Bay, when the whiteman decided that he wanted to again play God and changethe course of mighty rivers, so he could make money andpower from then, he corralled the Indian people, theIndians, into reserves and flooded the Indian land. The


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nations of Indians and Eskimos in the north have beenslightly luckier.

For a while it seemed that wemight escape the greed of the southern system. Thenorth was seen as a frozen wasteland, not fit for thecivilized ways of the white man. But that has beenchanging over the past few years.

Now the system of genocidepracticed on our Indian brothers in the south, overthe, past few hundred years is now being turned looseon us,, and our Eskimo brothers. "Don't be silly;' youmay say. "We are sorry about what we did in the past,we made some mistakes. But it's different now.

Look, we give you aneducation, houses and health services."

Mr. Berger, the system ofgenocide may have become a little more polished overthe past few hundred years in order to suit thecivi1ized tastes of the southern people who watch LloydRobertson on the National.

But the effect is exactly thesame. We are being destroyed. Your nation is destroyour nation. What we are saying today, here and now isexactly what Louis Riel was saying roughly a hundredyears ago.

We are a nation. We have ourown land, our own ways and our own civilization. We donot want to destroy you or your land. Please do notdestroy us.

You and I both know what happened


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to Louis Riel. Yet now, a hundred years later, yourPrime Minister is willing to say that Louis Riel was notall wrong. He is willing to say that, a hundred yearslater.

But is he willing to changethe approach that destroyed Louis Riel? And his nation?And is now threatening to destroy us?

I am sure throughout yourvisits to native communities, Mr. Berger, that you havebeen shown much of the hospitality that is ourtradition, as a people. We have always tried to treatour guests well, it never occurred to us that ourguests would one day claim that they owned our wholehouse. Yet that is exactly what is happening.

White people came as visitorsto our land. Suddenly they claim it as their land.They claim that we have no right to call it Indianland, land that we have occupied and used for thousandof years. Which just recently the white man has coneto visit. And suddenly he claims it to be his own.

Is this is the great systemof justice, which your nation is so proud of? Now lookat what happened to France during the Second World War?Germany moved in and occupied the land that Franceclaimed as her own.

At that time, Canada seemedwilling to help a people whose land had been unjustlytaken. Now, the same thing is happening to Indiannations of the north. Your nation has suddenly decidedto move in and occupy land that is rightfully ours.


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Where is your great traditionof justice today? Does your nation's greed for oil andgas suddenly override justice? What exactly is yoursuperior civilization? That can so blindly ignore theinjustice occurring continually over one third of theland mass in Canada? And yet barely gets reported onyour T.V, or newspapers?

One third of the land mass ofCanada is under the direct colonial rule. Yet you seemwilling only to talk of igloos, polar bears and snowwhen you talk about the north. One has to read aboutSouth Africa or Rhodesia to get a clear picture of whatis really happening in Northern Canada. While yournewspapers and television talk about sports fishing uphere, we as a people, are being destroyed.

And it doesn't even merit anycoverage.

Look at us. And what westand for, before you accept without further thoughtthat the Indian nation must die. In many parts of theworld people are starving. It is said that two-thirdsof the people of the world go to bad hungry each night.We Indian people are sometimes accused of not beingwilling to share our resources. But what of thisabsurd scheme that Arctic Gas has dreamt up?

What does it offer to thosewho are starving? Does it promise to use our resourcesand our land to help those who are poor? It suggestsexactly the opposite.

It suggests that we give up our


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land and our resources to the richest nation in theworld. Not the poorest.

We are threatened withgenocide only so that the rich and the powerful canbecome more rich and more powerful.

Mr. Berger, I suggest thatin; any man's view, that is immoral . If our Indiannation is being destroyed so that poor people of theworld might get a chance to share this world's riches,then as Indian people, I am sure that we wouldseriously consider giving up our resources.

But do you really expect usto give up our life, our lands so that those few peoplewho are the richest and the most powerful in the worldtoday can maintain and defend their own immoralposition of privilege?

That is not our way.I strongly believe that we dohave something to offer your

nation. However, something other than our minerals. Ibelieve it is in the self-interest of your own nationto allow the Indian nation to survive and develop inour own way, on our own land.

For thousands of years, wehave lived with the land, we have taken care of theland, and the land has taken care of us. We did notbelieve that our society has to grow and to expand andconquer new areas in order that we could fulfill ourdestiny as Indian people.

We have lived with the land,


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not tried to conquer or control it, or rob it of its ?riches. That is not our way.

We have not tried to get moreand more riches and power, we have not tried to conquernew frontiers or outdo our parents. Or make sure thatevery year that we are richer than the year before.

We have been satisfied to seeour wealth as ourselves and the land we live with. Itis our greatest wish to be able to pass this on, thisland to succeeding generations in the same conditionthat our fathers have given it to us. We did not tryto improve the land and we did not try to destroy it.That is not our way.

I believe that your nationmight wish to see us, not as a relic from the past, butas a way of life. A system of values by which you maysurvive in the future. This we are willing to share.

If your nation chooses insteadto continue to try and destroy our nation, then I hopeyou will understand why. we are willing to fight so thatour nation can survive. It is our world.

We do not wish to push ourworld onto you. But we are willing to defend it forourselves, our children, and or grandchildren. If yournation becomes so violent that it would tear up ourland, destroy our society and our future, and occupyour homeland, by trying to impose this pipeline againstour will, then of course we will have no choice but toreact with violence.

I hope we do not have to do that.


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For it is not the way we would choose. However, if we areforced to blow up the pipeline, I hope violence -- I hopeyou will not only look on the violence of Indian action, butalso on the violence of your own nation which would force usto take such a course.

We will never initiate violence.But if your nation threatens by its own violent action todestroy our nation, you will have given us no choice.

Please do not force us intothis position. For we would all lose too much.

Mr. Berger, I believe it isbecause I am a social worker here that I have, in asense, had to make some sense out of the frustrationand desperation that people in this community andothers along the valley are feeling. I have thereforetried to read as much as possible of other situationsin Canada and in the world.

It is clear to me that thepipeline in Alaska has not been any part of progress,whatever progress may mean. Where progress should meanpeople getting greater controls over their own lives,greater freedom, the pipeline in Alaska appears to havedriven people into the ground. Along with the pipeline.

Clearly, we do not want thathere. Perhaps it is also because I am a social workerthat I am aware that what steps my people may take inreaction to the building of a pipeline here.

Mr. Berger, it should be veryclear by now what are the wishes of the people alongthe Mackenzie


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Valley regarding the pipeline here. I do not believeyou or anyone else could misunderstand what the nativepeople of this valley are saying.

Obviously if we lived in anykind of a democratic system, there would be no furthertalk of Gas Arctic pipeline. The will of the peoplehas been made very clear. If this consensus, if thewill of the people is not respected, then I appeal toyou and all people of southern Canada to respect andsupport us in our efforts to re-establish democracy anddemocratic decision making in our homeland.

I guess the question forsouthern Canada is simply which side are you on? Areyou on the side of the people trying to find freedomand a democratic tradition? Or are you on the side ofthose who are trying to frustrate our attempts to findfreedom?

Are you on the side of thosewho are trying to frustrate our attempts to findfreedom and who are, instead, trying to destroy thelast free Indian nation?

Mr. Berger, I guess what I amreally trying to say is, can you help us? And can wehelp you make sure that the will of the people isrespected? After all, isn't that what -- isn't thatsupposed to be what Canada once stood for?

Can we as an Indian nationkeep, help Canada to once again become a true democracy?

Thank you very much, sir.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you,


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Mr. Blake.(WITNESS ASIDE)

THE COMMISSIONER: Do youneed a break, Mr. Charlie?

MR. FRANCIS: He would liketo have a break, yes.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well,sure, I understand that. And I am grateful to you, Mr.Charlie for the interpreting that you have done for us.Well, we'll take maybe a five or ten minute break andjust relax for a minute.(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)

THE COMMISSIONER: Ladies andgentlemen, we will carry on again. And Mr. Charliewill continue with the translation of Mr. Blake'sstatement. So, carry on Mr. Charlie.

THE COMMISSIONER: I wouldlike that statement marked as an exhibit. MissHutchinson, would you mark that as an exhibit?(STATEMENT OF PHILLIP BLAKE MARKED AS EXHIBIT C-32)

JOHN ITSI: Resumed.A Good afternoon, ladies

and gentlemen, Chief, and Band Counsellors. Mr. JudgeBerger and staff, and CBC reporters.

My name is John Itsi and I ama small-time general contractor. I have been Vice-


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President of the Indian Brotherhood for two years andChief of the Fort McPherson band for two years.

Before I say my presentation, Iwould like to let the court reporters and news mediafrom--stop them referring to people that makepresentation at this Inquiry as radicals, militants andas far as Edmonton Journal went, they called me an "angryyoung chief" which sort of my reputation as bad as it is,but it went further, probably on across Canada.

I would like to tell youabout when I was 12 years old, just out of school inInuvik, I had to go hunting caribou. We went huntingcaribou about a hundred miles from here. That is upCaribou Creek where they call it, Caribou Creek up inthe Yukon.

And I had to go because oneof my older brothers, was out hunting, I mean, outworking for the oil company. One of the oil companies.And my mother was alone and somebody had to go out andget meat for my smaller brothers and sisters. Theweather was cold and it took us four days to get up toour destination. And two weeks later, we came backwith a big load of meat which was good.

But the thing I am getting atis, that now you could travel a hundred miles in oneday with skidoo and just hope that you don't breakdown, because it is a long way back. But travelingwith dog team, you can always rely on the dog team.

But the most important thingI am getting at is the distance you have to travel,


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either by dog team or skidoo to get caribou or moose.That is if they build a pipeline. It might change theroute of the caribou. And the compressor stations,all the noise they make might chase the moose furtheraway.

The majority of the peoplehere live on caribou or moose meat and fish. Some ofthe natives hold steady jobs here. But on weekends youstill see them out hunting caribou or fishing on theirdays off. These kinds of foods is important to them,because they are raised on these natural foods. Youcan't change them.

I know some of them tried tolive like white man, but you still see them buying meatoff of the people that's got caribou meat or buyingfish. You can't change their diet.

And the people that maketheir living off of the land, move into the mountainsclose to the caribou. Or fish where the best placesare to fish. If these people make their--kill cariboufor their, for summer use, they dry the meat. And inthe summer time they fish and they fish to make dryfish for the winter.

These animals that we dependon for food are very valuable to us Natives. If thepipeline was to be built across the caribou route andthe caribou route change, it will take us many weeks toget there wherever the caribou is. Or maybe we willstarve on the way. Because most of the experiencedhunters are old now and, like myself, I am still a


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greenhorn. But I still hunt and fish. Or maybe wewill freeze if our skidoo break down getting to there.

If changes like this is totake place, and this is just a note, a silly notionthat I had here . I said that I recommend that GasArctic give us new stomachs so we could live off of thegarbage that they sell in the stores.

One important thing I wouldlike to talk about is what if the pipeline break? Howare they going to know if the pipe break duringbreakup? Maybe that's a question for one of eitherFoothills or Canadian Arctic Gas? That's when theMackenzie and Peel River floods, how are they going toget to their turnoff valves during spring breakup?

This spring, when I wascoming back from one of my hunting trips, just beforethe spring breakup, I happened to take the wrong road,I took the Keene Industries winter road. Across theriver here and came, it was dark that time andeverything was frozen. And I seen a little creek, alittle creek running down the bank and it was strangefor me, you know, to see this creek. And every othercreek is frozen.

And I smell oil. And so Istopped my skidoo. And I went over to the creek and Iput my hand in the little creek and I smelled it. Andit is pure diesel fuel.

So when I came back, I triedit was on a weekend. I tried to get ahold of -- andthe only person I could get ahold of was, well, the


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only person I tried to get hold of was Whit Fraser.That was the only guy you could go to, in the newsmedia. It was on the weekend.

So, somebody answered andsaid he wasn't in. So there was nobody else I couldtalk to. So, about several days later, they werecleaning it up. But things like this, what, you shouldrecommend to the Territorial Government is, to have aplace .here in case there is an oil spill, and maybethe companies are gone, you know, maybe their stagingarea, where their fuel bladders are, what you couldrecommend to the Territorial Government is that theyhave a place where they could, you know, a person couldphone there and tell them there is an oil spill.

Instead of trying to phone --nobody know who to talk to. Like, the only place wecould talk to them and get it on the air is the newsmedia. But that's not the best place to go to.

This is just one of thethings that will probably happen when the pipelinebreaks, you know. You got no place to go to, maybe youhave to phone out to Yellowknife, and C.N.T. is not--the phones are not too reliable all of the time. Andyou know, there has got to be some place where youcould phone right away, or get authorities on it.

If the pipeline breaks, howare they supposed to know? And us we know, because weare always traveling around or monkeying around,skidooing or driving boat around.

I want to talk about the jobs


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now. Most of the jobs on the highway, and even intown, go to the white people. The government is alwayssaying Northern development. You always hear that onT.V. and you see it on pamphlets and every place yougo.

And another thing, they arealways saying the natives get first priority for jobs.Well, that's not true. Everybody in here knows it'snot true.

My way of thinking about thisis they should call it Northern development for thewhite people's pockets. That's the way I feel. Eventoday our native students, you know, they graduate from.grade 12, and they still end up looking for jobs.

I don't blame them. There isa lot of smart kids. And they graduate and still theyare walking around. That's because some people fromthe south come crawling around here and end up with thejobs that could be taken by these graduate students.

That's what make me sick istaking the jobs away from Natives, and then thegovernment says that Natives are supposed to get firstpriority. That's not the way, I mean, that's not theway it goes. It might look like in the governmentoffice, down in Ottawa or in Yellowknife, or even.Edmonton, it's on paper. Natives get first priority.

It's not like that. It'sright here in McPherson . It's--everything goes to thewhites. White gets first priority. I don't know why.Maybe their skin is better than us or, I don't know.


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If they ever build a pipelineall of the jobs will be given to the union of southernworkers. And that is a fact because here on theDempster Highway, there is only three or four who worksteady. There was maybe at one time, I remember theyhad about fourteen, but just to do odd jobs and thenthey were laid off.

And Keene Industries hiredtheir labour from the south. I don't know why.

And another thing, theDepartment of Economic Development, it's not doing adamn thing in encouraging Native businessmen or thoseinterested in running their own business. You know to-while the highway is coming and while the pipeline iscoming, they are not doing nothing to encourage theNative businessmen.

Or those interested in runningtheir own business. You put in an application to runmaybe a taxi or a cafe, or maybe a garage. You put in anapplication at the Economic Development, they send itout. It's gone for about six weeks and then they writeto you that they want you to change a few thins,, thenyou're--by that time, the shipping season's over.

Like the barges, you can'tget your cars in for taxi, you can't get your materialinto fill the garage. And then they send it down toOttawa and Ottawa says no. McPherson don't need ataxi, McPherson don't need a garage.

But if a white people, a white,person put in an application, it's right there. It's


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signed.And things like that are

going' on, you know. People are fed up with it.Well, what I would like you

Judge Berger to recommend to the Federal Government isthat Natives be given special rates to get jobs on thepipeline. Not, don't say first priority. Give them aspecial way of going into, maybe could--I don't knowhow I could say it.

A special way, that they areW ver' a special privileges to get jobs on the highway,because that thing is going to be built anyway.

And you know, like the thingI keep coming back to is, Natives get first priority.That is all, you know, I don't like to swear oranything, but you know, that is not true.

They should be given thespecial -- if there is going to be a union, thesouthern union people are going to get the jobs. Thereshould be consultation where we could get in there andthe government could talk for us or maybe theBrotherhood and get them to join up with the unions.

So that we could get jobs.And not just these guys supposed to be getting jobs,they are not getting jobs, stuff like that. Becauseeven on the, on the highway last winter, one Gas Arcticguy came to me and said, when they're going to build apipeline,, we are going to be competing with KeeneIndustries for Native workers. He said, according tomy paper here, he says, I heard there's about a hundred


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Natives working. And that was in February.THE COMMISSIONER: On the

highway?A Yes.THE COMMISSIONER: That's

what he thought?A Yes. Well, that is what

he heard at his desk. So I told him there is one guythat is on that highway. And that was Frederick Blakefrom Arctic Red. And I told him that they must haveadd two zeros to that one.

I mean things like that--ifthey want to get, if they want to get the whole truththen, they should get it right from the community, notfrom Ottawa or Edmonton.

And I would also like you torecommend to the government that the Department ofEconomic Development assist Native businessmen or thoseinterested in having their own business, get them toencourage them, or bring out all of the bestpossibility of doing these business. Before theDempster Highway is completed.

Or even before the pipeline isgoing to be built. Because these are very important.There is nothing that has been done and there is highwayon full speed right now. And if I was, if I was stillthe chief, I was going to try to stop that 47 mile gapbetween here, between the border and Dawson. I was goingto put a halt on that until they, the EconomicDevelopment people smarten up because they are not doing


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a damn thing for us.Before you know it, some

Japanese guy will have a big restaurant here andsomebody will be having a gas station up at the 8 milesthere, right at the crossing. And there is people thatlive there all of their lives.

You know, things like this,they should come right down and help us. Not just sendus applications and then throw it in the garbage abouttwo months later.

That's all I've got to say,Mr. Berger.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youvery much Mr. Itsi.(STATEMENT OF JOHN ITSI MARKED EXHIBIT C-33)

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, wecould hear one more statement before supper.

ELIZABETH COLIN Resumed.A Thank you for coming to

our alcohol center. When you first came and had coffeewith us. I would like to say that I am happy that Iwill be talking to you.

You heard a lot about whatthe pipeline will do to the land, the animals, the fishand the birds. But what about the peoples? They aregoing to be affected by the pipeline too. I will notbe talking for myself but for the A.A. group here inMcPherson.

I would like to share with you


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1 how we started A.A. here and what has happened.The Peel River Alcohol A.A.

would like you to hear about how we, as Natives aretrying to help ourselves for our drinking problemsthat we used to have 27 months ago. At that time wedidn't know about getting help for our alcoholism.A lot of people were drinking so we thought that itwas supposed to be that way. Until I got so fed upwith all the problems I was having at home with myfamily.

Those days we never even hearof anybody getting help to stop drinking or even tocontrol their drinking. I am happy today that I askedthe social worker, Phillip Blake, for help with mydrinking. I was told that I was the first person, I wastold that I was the first person to admit that I haddrinking problems. So he said that he was going to helpme all he can.

That is the first time that Iheard about Henwood. That is a place where people go 1for 28 days. For their drinking problems, and to gethelp for their drinking. It is about 15 miles fromEdmonton.

Neil and I were the first to gothere in July '73 for 28 days for our drinking. We havenine children, the oldest is 17, the youngest 7 is fivenow. That much we wanted to stop drinking. We left allof our children here and went out to Henwood. We arehappy now that we did that, because our children arehappy, just as we are today.


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While we were in Henwood, welearned a lot of things that we never knew before. Wewent to group therapy , couples meetings, lectures andsaw a lot of movies on alcohol. We did a lot of talkingabout what is really bothering us.

Like myself I couldn't talkto anybody about anything. I felt like I was a nobodyuntil I went to Henwood. There, the door opened forme, for a lot of things I didn't know. There were alot of things that I had never been able to talk aboutwith anyone before.

But in those sessions it justall came out. Often I just cried, but so did many ofthe other people that were there. And I found therewere others worse off than me, and that helped me.

After we came back end ofJuly we started A.A. in McPherson. October 20, 1973,we couldn't start on our own. Three A.A. came fromInuvik to start A.A. with us. Since then we are havingmeetings once a week, since '73. Thirteen other peoplehave gone to Henwood, for treatment for their drinkingproblem.

And we have had the meetingssince then. But we have learned a lot, as Indians,that we could do a lot for ourselves. We always letthe white people do things for us. But since we quitdrinking, we found out that we could do things for ourown. And we didn't even know they had grant foralcohol in every community.

And the social worker, John


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Osborne, is the one that told us about it and how wecould apply for it. And what we could do for it. Andall last summer I was busy writing letters to thepeople that I didn't know and everything. But hehelped me. He didn't write it for me though, but I hadto do the writing. But he told me I could.

A lot of time, I remember,I got mad at him because I told him I couldn't. But hesaid, you could. But today I am happy. John is inInuvik and we are here and we still do our own. Weknow what to do.

And that was the time we asthe Department of Social Workers in Yellowknife for agrant so that we could have the Alcohol Centre. We gota grant of $25,000 in September 26th, 1974. e openedthe center in November 7, 1974. The reason I am sayingthis is we know the pipeline will really affect theIndian way of life.

Also the Dempster Highway.And they have a beer outlet in the town here that isbeing opened Fridays and Saturdays. And just to giveyou an idea of how much is being spent. You see thepeoples who are working on the highways for good wageslast winter, and just to give you a--how much one inthree months.

And here I have to ask Neilto read it for me because I can't do it very good.This is just in three months how much beer was sold andall that. The reason I am doing this is because that'sin three months, with beer, for the work on the highway


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like.But I couldn't say it was

only the natives. It was the whites and nativestogether. But what if the pipeline come through, itwill be worse than that.

MR. COLIN: Thank you, Mrs. Thebeer sale here in Fort McPherson is $5.50 a dozen. InMarch, 1974, they sold 1,413 case. Pardon me, this isMarch 1975. They sold 1,413 case, which cost $7,771.30.

In April, they sold 2360case, it cost $12,980. In May, they sold 2489, it cost$13,690 case, pardon me, $13,690 dollars. Total salesis $34,441.50. That's in three months.

This averages out to 7.3dozen beer for every man and woman and child in thiscommunity. Also, for this amount, ten men couldpurchase a freighter canoe.

THE COMMISSIONER: Couldpurchase a what?

NEIL COLIN: A freightercanoe.

THE COMMISSIONER: Oh, yes.MR. COLIN: And 20, and a

kicker and a new skidoo every three months. Or fortymen each year could be outfit with the same equipment.Or purchase 49,202 gallons of gasoline every threemonths or 196,808 gallons of gasoline a year.

MRS. COLIN: Thank you Neil.And the reason I put this up is because what if thepipeline come through, it will be worse. And


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like right now we are trying to get back on our feetlike. As Natives. Trying to help ourself. But whatwill happen if the pipeline come through and there isgoing to be a lot of money and a lot of the Indians isgoing to be affected by alcohol.

And that is what is worryingus, the A.A. group in McPherson. Like we were sayingit's not that we are trying to make everybody quitdrinking. We know we will see the drink the rest ofour lives. But there is a better way without it. Andyou know what you are doing.

And there are a lot ofbeautiful things that is in this world that we couldsee. This is what is worrying us.

Like myself I didn't evenknow that I could do the things that I am doing today.Because, I read and I hear it. The Indians are juststupid, drunken, lazy, that's what we are called mostof the time by the white peoples.

But we can't be called thatway all of the time. We could show them that we could,have our own say too. That is why I am happy that Ihave a chance to talk to you, Mr. Berger.

Like myself, you know, sinceI quit drinking, I have been in a lot of things, tryingto help my people. If we didn't care when we firstcame back from Henwood, I don't think that any of thiswould be going on. We would have just kept it toourself as long as we were sobered, and no use aboutthe next person.


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But we care about ourpeople, that is why we are trying to do all that wecan to help our peoples in any way that we know wecould help them.

And I have been to a lot ofplaces for meetings, or for seminar, and I was toInternational Women's Conference in Yellowknife, too.And by going places like that, I learn a lot all of thetime. And I am happy to say that for being on the BandCouncil.

The peoples put me here forthem to try and do something for them. I will try mybest for my peoples. Because this is the first time Ithink that I am ever making a speech in a public placelike this to a lot of people.

It is not easy, but I amtalking so that's the main thing.

So Mr. Berger, may I end mytalk with this? Mr. Berger, all of this work for JudgesBerger might be for nothing. Right now you are goingto all of the communities and the people are tellingyou everything, how they feel about themselves andtheir land and their future.

The people have never donethis before. They trust you and they want to tell youbecause they believe you can help them. They are goingto a lot of work and doing everything they can to tellyou all about their life.

You will be writing a reportto Ottawa. What will happen if Ottawa doesn't listen to


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you? What if Ottawa doesn't listen to us? What if theyjust go ahead with the pipeline?

The people in the north aretalking to the government for the first time now. Ifthe government doesn't listen, how many more peoplewill start drinking, just because they feel they havebeen fooled again?

We will feel bad ourselves,presenting all of this for nothing. We will try toaccept whatever happens. Even though it will be veryhard. But what of the other people in the town? Maybethey will just drink more to try to forget what ishappening to them.

Thank you, Mr. Berger, forlistening to me, from Elizabeth Colin.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youMrs. Colin.

MR. ITSI: What about myquestion about turnoff valves during breakup?

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ithink we should come to that. I wonder, maybe we couldhave Mrs. Colin's statement translated and then getyour question?

MR. ITSI: Yes , okay.THE COMMISSIONER: You can

stay there, Mr. Itsi.


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THE COMMISSIONER: Would youhave Mrs. Colin's statement marked as an exhibit?(MRS. COLIN'S STATEMENT MARKED EXHIBIT C-34)

THE COMMISSIONER: It's 5:30,r. would you mind waiting until after supper to askyour questions?

Well, we'll adjourn until 8o'clock tonight. And we will come back at 8 o'clocktonight and carry right on. Thank you.

Yes, I am going on a boattrip up the river. But I will be back I think by 8o'clock, so the rest of you will be here.(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)

THE COMMISSIONER: Well,ladies and gentlemen, I think we will come to order.And I have asked Mr. Carter and Mr. Workman of ArcticGas, and Mr. Elwood of Foothills Pipeline to go to thatmicrophone so that--Mr. Itsi, if you want to come up tothis microphone, they are right here to answer yourquestions.

JOHN ITSI: Resumed.MR. ITSI: Yes, my question.

I have a question for Foothills Pipeline and CanadianArctic Gas. How will your -- the pipeline companiesknow when there is a break in the line during springbreakup, or during freeze up? Like, if your turnoffvalves were under water, how would you get to them?

THE COMMISSIONER: You wantto translate that question?


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MR. CARTER: I will ask Mr.Workman to answer that for Arctic Gas.

MR. WORKMAN: If, at any timethere is a break in the pipeline, regardless of wherewhether the break is under the river or wherever, thesection of line with that break would be shut offautomatically. This is all automatically controlled.The valves on each side of that break would shut as thepressure sensors noted that there was a leak.

If we had to get in, for anyparticular reason to make sure that these valves wereshut off, say, on each side of the river, and it washigh water, breakup periods we could get in byhelicopter.

There are either airstripfields or helicopter pads planned for wherever thesevalves are.

MR. ITSI: You mind if I aska couple more, just to--from yesterday when John Blakewas asking, a couple of questions. I would just liketo clarify a couple more questions.

From what I read in the trademagazines, the Alyeska pipeline in Alaska is going topipe gas in the air form to Valdez. And at Valdez, thegas will be liquefied so that it will be shipped bytankers, to southern markets.

And yesterday you said thatthe gas that is in its last staging area where it canbe liquefied. Am I correct on that?

MR. ELWOOD: I believe you are


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referring to the El Paso project there, not Alyeska.MR. ITSI: Yes, yes.MR. ELLWOOD: That is true.

Their plan is to ship the gas across Alaska, liquefy itand carry it in tankers down to the southern states.And there it would go into another plant to beconverted back into a gas, and then shipped in apipeline to the markets in the States.

It is not used in the liquidform. We just do that for convenience to carry it inthe tankers.

MR. ITSI: Well, yesterdayyou, said it can't be--can't be liquefied after --yousaid when it is in its air form stage, it can't beliquefied. Now it's a different story. Well, anyway I got it anyway.

THE COMMISSIONER: Before yougo on, you want to have a go at translating that, thatexchange.

MR. ITSI: My last questionis not a question, but yesterday you told the audiencethat the gas wasn't poisonous. According to the menthat work on the pipeline in the south, like I've beentalking to some of them that worked, had experience inworking on pipelines in the south. That the gas isextremely poisonous.

One guy said there was a leak.in a small valley. And the gas hung in that area, itlifted up but it hung in that valley there. And one of


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the workers, I guess one of the maintenance guys forgotto take his safety mask with him. And he went into thatplace and he got killed. And yesterday you said itwasn't poisonous.

MR. ELLWOOD: I would justcomment on that. The poison gas, poisonous gas that isfound in southern Canada, in Alberta, contains H2S,hydrogen sulphide, which is poisonous.

The gas itself, the naturalgas is not poisonous. It is the hydrogen sulphidewhich is poisonous. And, so far as we know all of thegas that has been found in the Delta thus far does notcontain hydrogen sulphide.

THE COMMISSIONER; Well, itmay be sweet gas or whatever it is you call it, but youcan't breathe it, can you?

MR. ELLWOOD; No, you need tobreathe oxygen to live. You can't live in impure gasbut it is not poisonous in the sense that one whiff ofit mixed with air would kill you.

MR. WORKMAN: I might add --THE COMMISSIONER: Do you want

to try and translate that before Mr. Workman goes on.MR. WORKMAN: I might add one

word to that. The gas that is discovered so far is notpoisonous. There is no hydrogen sulphide in the gasthat has been discovered in the north up to now.

And if by any chance they do? discover gas that has this hydrogen sulphide in it,that hydrogen sulphide would be all removed right at


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the gas plant, so that the gas that is coming downthrough the pipeline would still be quite free of thispoisonous material..

MR. ITSI: How will they getrid of that poisonous gas at the plant, burn it or--?

MR. WORKMAN: No, thepoisonous?

gas is converted to amaterial called sulphur. The sulphur itself is notpoisonous and it could be used as raw material forother chemicals and byproducts later on.

But the main purpose fortaking hydrogen sulphide out of the gas, in the gasplant is to remove this poison.

MR. ITSI: Okay, thank you.DORIS ITSI, Resumed.A Ladies and gentlemen,

before I start talking about what I want to say, firstof all, I would like to say how pleased I am to be withyou all, to say a few words about my land, about thepipeline.

I was elected Chief of FortMcPherson, also Band Council, and I have lived in FortMcPherson, 5 years now. And I know quite a bit of thisarea.

So, Mr. Berger, on behalf ofmy people, I would like to bring to your attention myfeelings in regards to the pipeline. I do not like theidea of the pipeline, as do many of the people in thiscommunity. Especially the people who hunt and trap.


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The Arctic Gas people say thepipeline will be 48 inches wide and will be built veryclose to Fort McPherson. Large compressor station willbe built approximately 23 miles from Fort McPherson.

Just eleven miles east oflocation lives two Native families. These twofamilies, along with other families, go to this certainarea, that they call Timber Creek to hunt and trap.

Construction of the pipelineis to begin five miles north of McPherson, passingHusky Lake, the foothills and through caribou migrationareas.

I strongly feel that thenoise from the compressor station and the noise fromthe construction will greatly affect and chase away theanimals, especially the caribou.

We depend greatly on thecaribou for its meat. And today, the prices of meat inthe store is too high in our stores and that we gotmore of the caribou. The larger families can notafford to live from the local stores.

Referring to the high prices,does not mean that the people of Fort McPherson do notlive off of the caribou. Because every person, whichincludes the children, have been brought eating cariboumeat.

Another fault of the pipelineis the possible breakage of the pipeline. People hereare always hearing of pipelines breaking throughout therest of Canada, and the world. The breaks will


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cause considerable damage and pollute a large area.Last fall, after there had

been a lot of seismic and drilling work, people saidthat the Arctic Char a that runs up the Rat River weredown in numbers. Construction camp that are close toFort McPherson will create a lot of social problems.

Drinking will increase,Indian girls will be involved with white men. Therewill be more unwed mothers. More crimes, more drugs,employment is another important thing in the pipeline.

It seems that the Nativesalways get the lower type of jobs. It has alreadyhappened with the oil companies and construction campsthat promise to hire Native workers. These promiseshave never been kept to their full extent.

Discrimination seems to be apoint that exists when the workers are being hired.The Department of Lands and Forests says that the oilcompanies must have permission from Natives to do anywork within their area.

In the past we have experiencedoil companies conducting seismic and drilling workwithout permission. We do not want to even talk aboutpipeline until there is a proper land claims settlement.

By having a land claimssettlement, we can have more control over largedevelopment to our land.

This is Doris Itsi.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much, ma'am.


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(WITNESS ASIDE)THE COMMISSIONER: Are you

going to interpret that? I would like that statementmarked as an exhibit.(DORIS ITSI'S STATEMENT MARKED EXHIBIT C-35)

MR. KOE: And Mr. JusticeBerger and ladies and gentlemen. And before I decide,you know --

THE COMMISSIONER: We willhave to swear you in. I didn't see you there for aminute.

MR. KOE: You have to swearme in?

THE COMMISSIONER: Sorry.RICHARD KOE Sworn.A Mr. Justice Berger and

ladies and gentlemen. Before I start, I want to tellyou that I am not a public speaker or something likethat. What I want to talk about is my experience atwork and what I thought about it after I you knowassociated with some of the white people from downsouth.

My friends here have got apresentation written out which maybe later on ortomorrow they will be reading to you on that there.They are going to give you their idea of what theythink about this pipeline that is coming through.

But what I want to add, to sayis that when I was working for Shell Canada, when I was,


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working out at the rig, I think that the general idea ofhaving Indian people on that job was to sell a sort ofproduct to the rest of Canada or to the Indian peoplesaying great, "Look, we've got Indian people on thejob."

Therefore the rest of you peopleshould be glad, but I think they have maybe two people onthe whole rig, and all the rest are from down south. Andany Indian people that is on that job there, they reallyaren't being taken for what they are.

Like if they're really willingto work, like, they've been given a pat on the head, likeyou know, you are a good Indian. And another thing thatsurprises me was that before I was there I didn't knowthat when I started working, I heard from one of myfellow employees down south that this, they had thismeeting, I think it was Gas Arctic or I don't know what-- for Shell. that there is going to be some Indianpeople working on that rig.

And we want you to treat themreal good, don't get mad at them. You know, just likecome token Indian. They wanted us to be happy, where wewere. So maybe we can come back and tell the Indianpeople that, oh, we got this job, we are happy now.

And then they can say, like,oh, that's good. Now the idea -- well, I guess maybeafter I finish this speech, the Interpreter can, youknow, , just say what he wants. Like he can give thegeneral idea behind what I have to say. I think heunderstands me and he understand what the rest of the


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younger people feel like.And we have a lot of

graduates walking around right now without jobs. Ithink they want jobs, you know. And right now theShell Company are bringing in university students,college students from down south for summer employment.And after they finish that employment, well, they goback to school.

They probably fund thestudent themselves. But the students from around here,they don't seem to get nothing. They're promised jobs.I don't know. Maybe you can ask the Manpower in town,or anything like that. How much times, say one personwent there, how much times he was turned down.

And you compare to theirstatistics of how much, what's the turnover ofemployees that are coming in and quitting and thenbringing them in from back down south?

But, like you know, it's theproduct, eh? They've got to sell it, you know, the doethat all we are is just, you know, like something theycan show to the rest of Canada or the rest of theIndian people.

And I think the Indian peopleare right when they say they don't want that pipelinefor very good reasons. I think you can see what'shappening over in Alaska. And maybe in the James Bayproject. What's going on down there.

And if there's any good news,like tell us who's getting all of the profits, who is


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getting all of the recognition. I think the onlyrecognition the Indian people get down there is likebad publicity, like, you know, the Indian people naveno jobs.

You know, they're drinking.And all of that. Well, ever since 19--well, '58 whenthe construction first started up here, the Indianpeople were hired on and off and on and off and on andoff. Like, small, you know, short-time employment.

And they got so used to it,you know, I don't think they could have worked for liketwo months without saying, you know, "Oh man, I'veworked two months. Like this really beats one week,"you know. And they got so used to that.

And all of a sudden the oilcompanies come and they hit them with a lifetimeemployment. Like you know, you've got an employment,now you can work for the rest of your life. You canhave big car, you can have everything. But then theyturn around and they pat them on the head and theydon't give them employment. And you know, you cap feelwhen you are left out or when you are different.

It is as simple as that. Andif they want equality, they might as well come down toour level, because we can't go up there. They left usbehind a long time ago, through their own doings.

They put us down, first timein 1958 by sending Indian agents over here, by sendingworkers, by sending foremans and everything they aresending here, and putting us down.


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But I don't think that all ofa sudden we can change and say we will accept thepipeline, the consequences and all that, because Idon't think we're not stupid now.

A lot of young people knowwhat it's like to live right in 1974 now. And to thinklike in three years the pipeline comes through and allof the information that is coming in from Alaska, ofwhat it's done over there, I mean that just don't ringa bell with us.

And I just want to say that Ihope that all of the rest of the young people arebehind me in what I say. Maybe that I s the way Ifeel, am right, but you know, I don't think I am wrongeither.

But I just wanted to saythank you for listening. (WITNESS ASIDE)

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank youvery much, Mr. Koe. Maybe you could take a stab atinterpreting that, just summarizing it if you can.

Thank you. Mr. Koe, you andyour friends are going to make a presentation, Igather. Maybe we could swear in all of the youngpeople with you, if that's all right and then you couldcarry on?

MR. KOE: Oh, sure.BOB SIMPSON: Sworn.MR. SIMPSON: My name is Bob

Simpson. I would like to thank Mr. Berger for comingtoday.


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The most attractivepart of the gas pipeline that has been proposedis, employment. The great pipeline is to takeus out of poverty. Yes, in this country you arenot rich by the standards of southerners, butthere are very few Canadians who eat better thanwe do.

The pipeline will not bringus out of poverty. It will bring the standard ofliving up to two, three times higher than now. Whichis already about twice that of the average Canadian'sgrocery bill.

So it is a very attractiveproposal, Gas Arctic and Foothills Pipeline bring ustoday. We will just have to pay four to five timeshigher prices.

But that slithering snake ofa pipeline, who tries its hardest to tempt us, willtell us the great number of jobs, the money, yes, thisis the snake's apple. Money..

I also heard at one time thatthis was to happen then the Dempster Highway was to beconstructed. Already this mud stream has passed us.There has been no great amount of money flowing intothis town. Admittedly, there are a few families whohave seen a better time because of this constructionboom.

And I can count them on myfingers. And this better time comes after taxes, grocerybills and, if they live in their own houses, heat,


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light , which is never cheap. Very little is left forthe better life, whatever that means.

What is a better life? Perhapsin fairyland, it would be driving trucks 12 hours a day,six days a week, receiving a minimum of $1500 every twoweeks. In the three years of road construction, a manwould have earned $108,000. But who in this communityhas received a quarter of this amount in three years?

I can only count three. Howmany receive a quarter or more who do not live in thiscountry? 75 to a 100 men. How many men from this towncould receive this amount? 50 to 100 men.

Why are not these menemployed now or were not employed because Indians arethought of as labourers, not capable of doing anyskilled job of any kind.

My occupation as employmentofficer is to find jobs for the people in the town bycreating jobs or by certain companies asking forlabour. I am sorry to say, but in the short period ofmy being in this position, companies request onlylabourers.

It seems to me this helps outtheir public image. You see, nobody can screamprejudice because they have hired local labour. Butvery few Indians are ever, given the chance or equalchance to prove their full capacity.

Gas Arctic has only two mentrained from here for pressure stations. One of thenis still working for Gas Arctic. This is good. I am


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happy to see that man in his position. But it seemsthat you only have 200 jobs at maximum to offer inNorthwest Territories. 200 permanent jobs

Sir, this is a drop in theocean. As far as I am concerned, you have nothing tooffer us in the way of employment. What you offer isthree to four years of employment, then nothing.

What can fill the emptypocket? The land will be gone. The land may well betaken away -- forever. Sir, did you expect people totake hundreds of years and then to throw them into amere four years?

What kind of suicide youasking us to take?

Thank you.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much, sir.(WITNESS ASIDE.)THE COMMISSIONER: Translate

that if you would, Mr. Charlie.CHIEF CHARLIE: They asked me

if they could just do away with the interpreting,because if it is all recorded over there and it isgoing to left here. When they get it, they couldexplain it to the older peoples what's been said as itis taking too much of the time. We have about 20 linedup that want to talk.

And if we go through aninterpreter like this, I think you will be here anotherthree or four days. So will you tell us just what you think


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about this?THE COMMISSIONER: Well,

maybe we could carry on with these presentations bythese young people.

CHIEF CHARLIE: With theolder person coming up, and making the speech, theysaid they will interpret that, but when they getletters like this, it takes so long to go through.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, whydon't -- if it's all right with you Chief, and themembers of the Council, we will have you Mr. Koe andthe others at your table there, carry on with yourstatements. We won't interpret them but maybe when youfinish, we will take maybe five minutes and you can,Mr. Charlie, you can try to summarize it just verybriefly without trying to cover all of the ground.Would that be all right?

And in that way we will, thepeople that don't speak English will still get an ideatonight of what's being said, okay? We'll just carry onlike that. So whoever is next.

GLADYS LUXIE (NERYSOO): Sworn.A Mr. Berger, Chief, ladies

and gentlemen. My names is Gladys Luxie. I would liketo read my report that I have typed up.

We the Indians of FortMcPherson and the rest of the Northwest Territories donot want the pipeline to be built as it will destroyour land and our way of life. We are lucky here tohave a say in what we want done with our land.


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As the Indians of southernCanada did not and now they can't even make a decentliving off of their land.

THE COMMISSIONER: Excuse mea second. I am awfully sorry. It really is hard forme to hear you. And could you just slow down a littlebit. We have got lots of time. Would you mindstarting again? I am terribly sorry but I justcouldn't hear you.

A We the Indians of FortMcPherson and the rest of the Northwest Territories donot want the pipeline built as it will destroy our landand our way of life.

We are lucky to have a say inwhat we want done with our land, as the Indians ofsouthern Canada did not. And now they can't even makea decent living off their land, as it is covered withfarms and cities.

When white man first came toNorth America, he wanted to take all of the riches theland could offer and without even asking the Indians,he began to build a railway which now runs from one endof Canada to the other. And still not being satisfied,he built highways that has caused more damage.

And now if he wants to seeany, of the wild animals that his ancestors used tohunt, I mean the Indians, he has to--he goes to thezoos where they are caged up in cages that are so smallthat they can't do anything but walk back and forth.

We want our land to stay the


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way it is. Even though it is damaged a little by theroads that the oil companies made in the sixties.

We are the last frontier inCanada and maybe in the whole of North America. AsAlaska now is no longer the way it used to be.

So why not build the gaspipeline along the oil pipeline that you have built inAlaska and keep Canada beautiful? And another thingthat I would like to say, is that all of Canada belongto the Indian people.

It always has and always will.Before Canada became a nation, the Indian people were anation among themselves. The English and the Frenchfought for land, for the land, calling it theirs.

But it really belonged to theIndians. And even calling it Crown land will notchange the way we think.

You have taken land away frompeople throughout the world, and don't you think that youhave taken enough already? You have given us everythingand by giving us everything, and destroying what we hadon our own, the only thing now that we have left is ourpride in our land which will be ours always.

The cost of everything herewill go higher. This will be worse when the wages goup. And as everyone knows, most of the wages will goto taxes anyway.

We aren't like the whitepeople who are always trying to stay ahead of each otherin owning large homes, land and things that they don't


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even really need.The government of Canada is

trying to bring down inflation and they can't seem todo anything about it. Up here we are used to it, as itall--the cost of everything has always been high. Whatwill happen then?

The rest of Canada are alwayscomplaining of the high cost of things. Before theysay things like that, I would like them to come andlive a few years up north and to pay the prices thatwe, the Native people, pay.

One thing that we are luckyto have is animals on the land. We do not need to buymeat and fish, unless we really have to. And anotherthing I would like to talk about is the young people.

There are a lot of youngpeople who are making their living off of the land.They see beauty as it really is, not like the youngpeople in the south who have to go to the parks andzoos in order to see animals which are caged up, andaren't free to roam.

Like I said before, we are in? a land that has already seen some damage, which theoil companies have done. I am one of the few peoplewho has an education on which I can depend on if theoil pipeline does go through. But very few of mypeople have what I have.

Therefore, not only for myselfbut for my people, I do not want the pipeline to be builton our land. Even when we go south for further


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education, there are only a few Native people who go, andthe rest are white people.

And I am not the only one whocan and will say this. And if they do go south, manyof them return even before they finish the courses theyare taking. So for the sake of the young people andalso the old, why not build the gas pipeline along theoil pipeline in Alaska?

I would ask that the youngpeople support our ideas by coming forth and sayingtheir part. We must fight hard in order that wepossess our land which must be ours for always.

Thank you.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much.(WITNESS ASIDE)RICHARD FRANCIS: Sworn.A My name is Rick Francis

and I have worked with Alberta Gas Company, for threeyears in the province of Alberta.

First I would like to talkabout the line breaks. I've seen the damages that it'scaused to the land, and I don't want to see that doneto the north.

The trees should be able togrow freely as and not having to be burnt downbecause of a line break. And I have traveled allover Alberta on the route of the pipeline. And Ihave seen very few Native people been employed by thewhite man's industry. Is this what is going to


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happen to the Natives of the North after a few yearsof the pipeline--should the pipeline come up here, 3Would we be out of the jobs? And I have been on theconstruction where they have 51 laid the actual pipeunder the ground, to the completion of a compressorstation. And watching this, being involved with it,a person can't help but think of the -- his manywinters back to his homeland. Thinking that he'sglad that he's not doing this to his land. And thegas industry are taking young people out to goodtraining to bring them back. How many of thesepeople, the young people would like to come back andtear up their land for a pipeline?

That is all that I have to sayfor now. Thank you.

(WITNESS ASIDE)THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.

I wonder if the statement that you read, I wonder if wecould have that and mark it as an exhibit. But thegentleman that spoke after Mr. Koe, I am sorry, I haveforgotten your name. You had a statement too. Iwonder if we could have that?

Oh, you have it here. Well,that one will be marked an exhibit and then the onethat was read just a minute ago, and is now beingbrought forward, is the exhibit after that.(STATEMENT OF BOB SIMPSON MARKED EXHIBIT C-36)(STATEMENT OF GLADYS LUXIE(NERYSOO) MARKED EXHIBIT C-37)(STATEMENT OF RICHARD FRANCIS MARKED EXHIBIT C-38)

THE COMMISSIONER: If you want


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to just summarize what these people were saying, you cantake a try at it. If you can't, we will--I'll tell youwhat we will do, Chief.

All of these statements thatwe are collecting here in writing, we will take therewith us but we will have them photocopied and we willsend them back here, so that you can explain them tothe people who don't speak English, when you find itconvenient to do so.

I think that maybe we hadbetter proceed in that way, and that's -- and I thinkthat I'll certainly remain here tomorrow afternoon andI will stay here tomorrow night too. But I reallythink that since I promised the people of Old Crow wewould get there Thursday, we had better try to getthere Friday.

But we will stay all daytomorrow and tomorrow night. I think that should giveus a chance to hear most of the people.

CHIEF CHARLIE: We have theletters from one of the widows in town here? The letterreads, to whose-

THE COMMISSIONER: Who is theletter from?

CHIEF CHARLIE: The woman isfrom -- Mrs. Mary Wilson, and I guess she has to besworn in?

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, ifshe is here. Yes, would you just swear in that ladyplease?


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MARY WILSON: Sworn.CHIEF CHARLIE: Yes, the

letter reads "To the Justice Berger. First of all Iwould like to say that I am happy to see you here withus at last. I have heard your voice on the radio allspring and I am very thankful that you can be here withus and listen to us.

Ever since I got married, Ihave been living at Rat River. My husband died abouteight years ago. And I still carry on in the same waywith my children. We use our area for trapping,fishing, and hunting.

Living in the bush is a good,life. We live well, sleep well and have very little toworry about. We don't need money out there. We onlydepend on our land.

Since exploration started, wenotice that trapping and fishing isn't exactly like itused to be ten, twenty years ago.

Last summer was worse. Thetrout looked like something else. It was not the samefish that we had before. I am very sure this kind ofthing is caused by oil exploration.

This is why I really don'twant the pipeline to pass my camp. What will I doduring or after the building of the pipeline? I don'twant it. That's all I can say.

It is going to ruin our way oflife for sure. Our children's life will be destroyed. No,we don't want the pipeline." Signed, Mrs. Mary Wilson".


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THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.That will be handed in and marked as an exhibit as well.(LETTER OF MARY WILSON MARKED EXHIBIT C-39)

THE COMMISSIONER: We hadbetter collect those now. I am sorry. Certainly, ifyou would swear in this lady?

MRS. JIMMY THOMPSON: Sworn,THE INTERPRETER: This is

Mrs. Jimmy Thompson, of Fort McPherson. Judge Berger,I am sure happy that you are with us now. I can't tellyou in English, also I want to thank Interpreter.

When a child is born, theyare brought up by their parents. And after the childdo what his parents are, sometime they are right andsometime they are wrong. Now, today we see there is alot of change to what it was -- what it used to be manyyears back.

Today sometime our youngpeople don't listen to their parents and they do asthey please. This we know is because of the manychanges that is coming into the northland.

Now we hear so much about ourland, we see the map on the wall and see what we aredoing in the land on that map.

We all claim that land formany years because of our grandparents. We had manygood chiefs in the past years and that is how that eare gathered here in one of our chief's name building.So as we are telling you about our land.

It's our land and we all think


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of it as a bank. We all think of it as a bank. Now wehear that a gas line is coming through our land andthere is a lot of good timber, even willows grow on it.

No more--because of thepipeline, these good timbers and willows will bedestroyed. It's just like sometime that we have astorage of meat. If it's thaws, we get rid of thatmeat and that is the way that our land will go.

There will be more animal lefton the land because there is nothing for the animals tolive or feed on. So that is the reason we don't want thepipeline. Even the fish is not like what it used to be.We have hard times to catch fish nowadays.

I want to say a few wordsabout drinking. Not because I don't drink. Firewaterwas brought into our land by white man. We didn't askfor it. When it came in. Now today there is a lotgood jobs which our young people do to make good moneyor their work. But when they get paid, have a holidaythey always spend their money on the firewater.

We know there is going to belots of money made through that pipeline. But we alsoknow that money will be spent too. So we know there bealways a lot of problems.

That is the reason why weolder people don't want the pipeline because it willbring a lot people into land and it's going to spoilour land and our young people.

Thank you very much for whatI had to say, Judge Berger. And also for you visitors


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to Fort McPherson."THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you,

Mrs. Thompson. Well mark that as an exhibit in theproceedings.(MRS. JIMMY THOMPSON'S LETTER MARKED EXHIBIT C-4O)

THE COMMISSIONER: MissHutchison, would you swear in the gentleman at themicrophone, I think he wants to make a statement.

RODDY PETERS: Sworn.A Hello, Judge Berger,

and my Chief and my second Chief and Town Counsellorand ladies and gentlemen.

I am very glad I an here toput my two cents worth in this community. I am, aguy that come one of the big family too, but right Ijust got my mom living with me.And I spend half of my life in this town , in thiscommunity.

Most of the time I'm doctorfor her and nurse and, all these time, decide that I amjust living right along. But as far as I understand inmy opinion, that this pipeline, there is--that's what Iwould really like to understand.

Natural gas and gas and oil,how many pipes is going to come through our country andthat's what I'm disappointed on that. I would like toknow how many of these are going to come through ourcountry to spoil our country?

And I'm not talking aboutmyself, because some of my sisters have got big family.


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Their children are going to live another two or threegenerations. And lots of my friends have got bigfamily. That is what I am pulling about.

And I understand that theresupposed a hundred Canadians, government since 1921 andwe're supposed to be good Canadian citizens, since thattime.

But before that, we were ourgreat chief, our own government. Therefore maybegovernment could have pity on us and give us a littletruthful--settle our country for us in the right wayrather than just look at us at the side of the highwayand, you know, just like somebody, some loose pet orsomething like that.

And I would like to see thegovernment listen to us, and try to take care of us,rather than just leave us on the side. And I got lotsto talk about. But it's hard for me talk in front ofmy own people, because 'I have been in quite a few ofthis community meeting before, since 1971. I was inFort Smith. First time in my life I was in bigmeeting. Leadership meeting.

I was first guy to be broughtup and do my speech. For a few minutes when I sat downI didn't know I was shaking, almost shake to pieces.So right now, I know lots of my friends, people islooking at me, ready to joke with me. So that is thebest I could say for my people.

Thank you.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you, sir.


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(WITNESS ASIDE)THE COMMISSIONER: I think

there are some others that want to speak tonight and Iunderstand that later on you are going to have a dance.

Maybe we could stop for fiveminutes now and maybe some of those of you who weregoing to say something could get together with theChief and Michael Jackson and just decide who is goingto speak for the rest of the time that we've gottonight. And then agree when we will stop and thedance can begin. We'll stop for five minutes now andthen we'll go on for a while after that.(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)(PROCEEDINGS RESUMED PURSUANT TO ADJOURNMENT)

THE COMMISSIONER: Ladies andgentlemen, we will come to order again and hear more ofthe statements that people want to make then.

MR. CHARLIE: We have aletter from Chief Johnny Kay. And he's referring thathe's not feeling well.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, hewas sworn yesterday.

MR. CHARLIE: But he wassworn yesterday.

THE COMMISSIONER: Certainlyso carry on then.

MR. CHARLIE: So when hefinish speaking, he mention that he was going to comeback today and talk about something else. And he senta note in. So I have it here in my hands so I will


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read it out.THE COMMISSIONER: Please do.CHIEF JOHNNY , resumed.MR. CHARLIE: This is letter

of Chief Johnny Kay and it refers to Treaty Number 11,1921.

"Judge Berger, I would liketo tell you about 1921 Treaty party. I am not feelingtoo well today so I did not come.

Indian Agent, Mr. Conrad cameby gas boat, first gas boat I seen in my life. Helanded his boat, have a big flag on it. They set up abig tent and they put a table in it. They starttalking about land and money.

Jimmy Sibiston was hisinterpreter and he also gave Chief one flag and hetalked about preserve. He said no white man is goingto cut one tree on it. What a big lie he told us.

Now they put highway on it,now they want to put pipeline through it too. He saidsomeday if they find mineral, oil, gold, we will getbig money from it. So if we take treaty money, no manwill drive us around.

Mr. Conrad said someday lotsof white man will be coming around. So if we stay nearcreek, we have to put big stick with I.D. on it. Andnear eddy where we set our nets. And if a white mancomes this I.D. he will not bother and go away.

White man, they do lot ofdamage to our land. We are concerned about our land.


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We get fish, meat and we trap on it. To make ourliving by it.

We don't want pipeline. Theywill make it bad for caribou and all living creatures.Hunting, trapping and fishing will be bad. What willour children do?

And good luck, and God blessyou on your trip to Old Crow and goodbye." Johnny Kay,Senior.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.That will be marked as an exhibit.(LETTER OF CHIEF JOHNNY KAY MARKED EXHIBIT C-4l)

MR. FRANCIS: Judge Berger, Ihave one filed brief here, but the lady has to be swornin yet. It is very short. I think it would make herhappy.

There is two of them there,side by side. We have brief from each.

THE COMMISSIONER: All right.SARAH FRANCIS Sworn.MARY KENDI Sworn.MR. FRANCIS: The first brief

here is from the lady on my right here, Mary Kendi.All of it is written to Judge Berger.

"I am happy for the opportunityto see you here with us. I do hope you will help us. Iam doing this on behalf of my family. I am worried aboutwhat will become of them, during and after this bigdevelopment starts. All my life, I worked hard for mychildren. Every spring I go out trapping in the woods.


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With what little I get I do mybest for them. If this pipeline goes through, what kindof life are we going to have? I am sure it won't be anybetter than it is now, but only worse. This is why, eversince we heard about the pipeline, we are afraid to eventhink of the future.

It is not only for me. Allmy, friends feel the same way. We are worried aboutthe future of our children. We would like to see ourchildren and theirs, carry on the ways of our ancestorsand ourselves.

We don't want to be changedinto something we don't understand. If we must makesome changes, we don't want it through someone pushingus into it. We must be given time to think and do itour own way.

And talking with my friends, Ifind a lot of them don't like, don't want the pipelinefrom Prudhoe Bay to pass over our land. If anything hasto be done, we must have land settlement first.

Otherwise we don't wantanyone bothering our land."

That is signed Mrs. Mary Kendi.THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you

very much.MR. CHARLIE: I have one here

before me, Judge Berger, and it's a note reads fromSarah Francis, Senior.

MR. CHARLIE: "I am very happy


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for your visit and I am also happy you are here to sharethis little time with us.

This land is our land and Iwouldn't want to lose a good place as it is. Since myparents brought me up, we stayed in the bush all of thetime. Ever since I remember back, we live off the landand through that time, we were in the bush, we made drymeat with caribou meat. And dry fish from the fish wecaught.

I say to this hearing, it isthat I would not like to have the pipeline come throughmy country. This winter my son stayed up in themountain for two months and we shared a lot of goodtimes together. We stayed in close to caribou and weget meat wherever we want it.

The reason for why I don'twant the pipeline is that I don't want to see the youngpeople of today with nothing. I want them to havesomething to be proud of as they were growing up.

This is all for now. Thankyou very much."

And she has a postscripthere. "Here I have here an example of what we used todo when we live off the land, when my parents lived.And still today we are doing it and the same."

She brought a little bag ofdry meat here which she wants you to see. And it'shere before us.

THE COMMISSIONER: Fine,well,, we'll mark the two statements.


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(STATEMENT OF MARY KENDI MARKED EXHIBIT C-42)(STATEMENT OF SARAH FRANCIS, SR., MARKED EXHIBIT C-43)

THE COMMISSIONER; Thank youvery much. That's very nice of you. I won't startnow, that would impolite. I will wait until we arefinished.

CHIEF CHARLIE: I have got astatement, Should William Nerysoo be sworn in?

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes, Ithink so. What's his name?

MR. CHARLIE: Oh , he wasyesterday.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, wewill regard this as a continuation of his testimony.What was the name again, I am sorry?

CHIEF CHARLIE: Mr. William?Nerysoo, Senior.

WILLIAM NERYSOO: Resumed.

CHIEF CHARLIE: The letterreads:

"I remember quite clearlyabout thirty years prior to 1921 when the Treaty wassigned. In those years prior to 1921, I do not recallanyone having a tough time making a living. All of thepeonies were very independent, the Treaty party arrivedhero to give Treaty money.

I remember very clearly theTreaty was signed by the Chief. Even that I won't gointo that part too much. I will only say that the


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Indian agent was, then told the Chief that theGovernment would take care of him always.

What the Indian agent saidthat day, I believe now. I am saying this because thegovernment is assisting the Native people here in thenorth a great deal and in many ways.

Since that day, a great manyyears have passed until today with the aid of thegovernment and the peoples is getting along. They areassisting all groups in the north and they seem to hegetting along quite well.

From what I hear, the government'sclaiming all of the land in the Northwest Territories. Andso are the Native peoples, Indian and Eskimo alike.

There are many hundreds ofchildren being raised in the Northwest Territory andthey will increase substantially in the next fiftyyears, and as the population increase, so will the landarea decrease.

And no doubt a lot ofsoutherners will be coming to the north and where willthe children go? For this reason, if the governmentgive the land to the Natives for their children in thefuture I will be very happy.

If the government allows theNatives to claim the land in the Northwest Territories,the Natives will not deliberately keep the whitesociety out of it.

The peoples that come in andwork, to make their living will be welcomed by the


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Natives, whoever comes our way we will regard as afriend. But if a big company such as oil or miningwants to explore, they have to ask the Natives forpermission to do so.

I am not talking about thisland for my benefit, but for our children and theirchildren for generations to come.

The government has assistedthe Indians since 1921 and I hope they will continue todo so. What I am saying here is that not just fortomorrow. I am thinking fifty to a hundred yearsahead.

Whatever the Native peoplesay, I hope the government considers this seriously andhopefully agree with us. You are all gathered here andyou are listening to us.

I thank you for that. Icertainly welcome your visit to Fort McPherson, Thankyou." William Nerysoo, Sr.

THE COMMISSIONER: All right,that statement will be marked as an exhibit.(STATEMENT OF WILLIAM NERYSOO, SR., MARKED EXHIBIT C44)

THE COMMISSIONER: We willcarry on, I think until 11 o'clock, for another fifteenminutes. So anybody who wants to speak tonight shouldfeel free to go right ahead.

JOHN BLAKE: Resumed.MR. BLAKE: Mr. Justice Berger,

I have one item here to bring up and maybe after I'vefinished this one here, maybe---I would like to ask the


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lawyers again one or two questions, they don't mind?On the matter of education

for our young people, for the pipeline project, Iunderstand the pipeline company are willing to trainour young people for the work on the pipeline jobs.

So we want our young peopleto be trained right away. If our young people are nottrained for the pipeline project, they will have nojobs. Only the white people from the south and wedon't want to wait too long for this.

Could I ask the lawyers acouple of questions on this?

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes,certainly. Do you gentlemen want to return to thattable with the microphone?

MR. BLAKE: Well, I wouldlike to ask you, how many young men have you trainedfrom the Northwest Territories in the last few years?

MR. WORKMAN: On the Nor-Tran training program, the number that are presently onthe program is 91 at the last count. And the trainingis going on continually. It has been going on forseveral years.

It takes possibly five yearsto train people up to the top jobs. Some have reachedthis level and are now training others on the program.But this is a continuing thing . Training will go onas long as each individual wants training and iscapable of receiving training.

MR. BLAKE: The 91 you have


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said you trained up to date, how many have you on thejob at the present?

MR. ELLWOOD: All of those 91are on the jobs, on the jobs at present. I would justadd, Mr. Blake, that the number of trainees is beingexpanded this summer, and again this fall.

Through the Nor-Tran programthey are adding some 15 new positions in constructiontraining this summer and I believe another eightpositions in operation's training this fall.

MR. BLAKE: Looking back atit now, I see the pipeline will be crossing somewherebetween five and six miles below McPherson here. FromMcPherson alone you had--there was only two fromMcPherson went out for training. And McPherson is oneof the biggest settlements down the Mackenzie.

And seeing the pipeline bepassing by that close, I think you should take maybe10, 15 from McPherson each year.

That two you guys took out afew years ago, one is out on a job, one is back hereAnd that one of the camps will be a few miles out ofMcPherson here. Where you are going to have your 800men, Out of that 800, could you at least have 20Natives from here trained before the pipeline comesthrough.

MR. WORKMAN: I am surprisedwhen you say there is only two that have been on thetraining program from McPherson. I don't have theexact figures in front of me but I was of the opinion


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that there is more than that that have come fromMcPherson. Now, the number that we can take in to thetraining program is limited, because all of those thatare in the program have been guaranteed jobs by theparticipating companies, regardless of whether thepipeline is built or not.

Now, until we get word thatthere is going to be a pipeline, it is pretty hard toexpand the program and still guarantee jobs for thesepeople. We don't think it's a good idea to trainpeople into a job that isn't going to exist.

We want to make sure thatwhen they have finished their training that there isgoing to be a job for them. So once we do know thatthe pipeline is going to be built, then we can reallyexpand, and will expand the training program.

And I can assure you thatpeople who want to get this training from FortMcPherson will have every opportunity to get onto theprogram at that time. Maybe Mr. Ellwood would like toadd something to that?

MR. ELLWOOD: Well, I too amsurprised that there are only two trainees fromMcPherson. I thought there were more than that. Butmy understanding is that the Nor-Tran people,particularly Mr. Archie Drew , are now recruitingpeople for new positions open this summer. And alsolooking for people possibly in the fall.

If anyone here were interestedin getting on one of these training programs, I would


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advise them to contact the Nor-Tran program in Inuvik.The person there is Ed Lenny, if they would get hold ofhim, I am sure he could arrange for them to beinterviewed or to have their application, or to have Mr.Drew come around here.

MR. BLAKE: How long did yousay it takes a person to be trained?

MR. WORKMAN: I gave theestimate of five years to train a man to the higherlevel of jobs, say, in compressor stations. Thecompressor station operator, say, or gas plantoperator. This is on-the-job training where he istrained to do each step of the job progressively untilhe is right up to the top level.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, yousaid you had 91 people on the Northerner TrainingProgram. Were those 91 people from the NorthwestTerritories?

MR. WORKMAN: Yes. Actuallythe southern boundary of the area that we were lookingat was, I think that they call it the Twenty-fifthRange Line, which is just slightly below the sixtiethparallel.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, ofthe 91 people, was it thought that all 91 wouldundertake five years of training?

MR. WORKMAN: If they so iidesired to go on that far and were capable of --

THE COMMISSIONER: That is, totrain them to work on the pipeline after it is built,


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and you have your 200 people running it?MR. WORKMAN: Yes, yes.THE COMMISSIONER: And you

need five years training to qualify for those jobs?MR. WORKMAN: Yes, to qualify

for the top jobs.THE COMMISSIONER: Well, of

the 91 people, are they all in the program now?MR. WORKMAN: Yes.THE COMMISSIONER: Do you

happen to know how many are Native Indian or Eskimo, orMetis people, as opposed to white people? Have you anybreakdown?

MR. WORKMAN: Mr. Ellwoodjust advised me that the last figure he got from Mr.Drew was 90 per cent Native, 10 per cent white. And by10 per cent white, we mean white people that have beenin the Northwest Territories for a good number ofyears.

THE COMMISSIONER: Yes,northerners are white and Native.

MR. WORKMAN: Right.THE COMMISSIONER: I just

wanted to know. Any other questions?MR. BLAKE: You say it takes

five years to train them. If you started building apipeline today, just supposing, how long would it takebefore completion?

MR. WORKMAN: Well, it wouldtake--well, if we were to actually start digging the


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ditch today, it would take at least two years beforethe pipeline was completed to the Delta.

MR. BLAKE: Now, you say ittakes five years to train a person and you say it takestwo years to build a pipeline. And you said you cannot, you didn't say you can not, but you say you haveto wait to get a definite answer if you are going tobuild a pipeline.

Okay, if you got your answertoday, and you put these people on the training forfive years, they will finish three years after thepipeline is finished now.

MR. WORKMAN: That is thevery, reason we wanted to get the pipeline going, orthe training program going before we get the word, sothat? we could have people well-trained as the pipelinewas completed.

We are not waiting to get theword that the pipeline is going to go before we startour program. We have already got 91 trainees wellunder way.

MR. BLAKE: It seemsridiculous for me, you said before that you had to waitto get a definite answer.

MR. WORKMAN: Well, what Isaid there I believe was that when we get a definiteanswer, we will expand our training program to trainpeople in all aspects of it. But in the meantime wewill certainly have a core of people being trained tolook after these initial jobs.


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MR. BLAKE: Thanks a lot.(WITNESS ASIDE)THE COMMISSIONER: Well, we

have time I think to hear from one more person beforewe stop. Well, it's almost eleven, maybe we will stopnow. Let me apologize for being late tonight. TheChief and Neil Colin took my staff and me for a boatride up the Peel River.

We visited the old camp atOld Fort and the camp at Eight Mile. And we were veryinterested to see the camps. I think some of you knowthat when I visited the Mackenzie Valley last summer, Ivisited the camp that you have at the mouth of the PeelRiver, and spent a little while there.

We'll adjourn. And I wantyou to know that seeing those camps, helps me tounderstand what you mean when you tell me how importantthe land is to you and your way of life.

I want to adjourn then and wewill start at one o'clock tomorrow afternoon. Yes?

CHIEF CHARLIE: I have oneshort letter here from an old woman.

THE COMMISSIONER: Fine, goahead.

CHIEF CHARLIE: It will takeonly a couple of minutes to read before you adjourn.

THE COMMISSIONER: Certainlygo ahead.

CHIEF CHARLIE: Maybe youhave to swore her in?


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THE COMMISSIONER: Oh, wouldyou swear the lady?

MARY NEYENDO Sworn.CHIEF CHARLIE:

It reads; "Dear Mr. Berger,long ago peoples used to live good. Today it's notlike that. I am an old woman. Still I think ofgrandchildren and their future. I don't want thiscountry to be destroyed. I would like to see thecountry to be the way it is.

No more game we depend onwild life. It will be a long time now that-it's bc along time now since the government has been after usthat the peoples still say no. We don't want to giveit up. Give up our land.

Although the oil companies isdestroying it. If we get money, it won't go very far.So thank you. This is Mary Neyendo."

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank Thatstatement will be marked as an exhibit.(LETTER OF MARY NEYENDO MARKED AS EXHIBIT C-45)

CHIEF CHARLIE: Also, Mr.Berger, before you adjourn the meeting, that theafternoon we have some teenager girls cooking in thehome ec, they say they are going -- which is for coffeeand tea tonight.

So I think they got every-thing pretty well ready. Except for the coffee, theygot some juice and the reason they are doing this, they


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want to see the dance tonight. And we hope you willstay for the dance too. Thank you.

THE COMMISSIONER: Thank you.Could I say that tomorrow at

one o'clock we will start again and Mrs. Sarah Simonwill show some more slides then. So if we all come atone o'clock tomorrow afternoon, we will see some moreof those slides. I certainly enjoyed Mrs. Simon'sslide show last night. So we will start again at oneo'clock tomorrow.

We will go along until fiveor six, and then we will come back at 8 o'clocktomorrow night. And carry on as long as we can. I'mhappy to carry on late into the night. I have gottenused to staying up late since I got to McPherson, so Iam ready for anything.

Yes, Mr. Itsi.MR. ITSI: Can you start at

10 o'clock?THE COMMISSIONER: Well, we

can start at 10 o'clock in the morning. I don't knowhow the people feel about that. It's okay with me.But we might find that people would be a little tired.

What do you and the membersof the Council think, Chief?

CHIEF CHARLIE: Well, 10o'clock sounds all right. But this morning at 10o'clock was hardly anybody around. So --

THE COMMISSIONER: Well, Ithink we --


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CHIEF CHARLIE: You are goingto start -- you are going to stay late tomorrow night.So it's okay at one o'clock.

THE COMMISSIONER: Well,let's start at one o'clock and we'll stay late tomorrownight.

Tomorrow morning I am goingto visit a lady who is ill and who wants to saysomething to me. And I will go up there in themorning. So we'll adjourn until one o'clock then. Andthank you very much for the dry meat, and I am going toshare it with my staff, who need some good food.

So we will see you tomorrowat one. We will see you at the dance.

(PROCEEDINGS ADJOURNED)


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Documents

July 9, 1975 Fort McPherson, N.W.T. Volume 12 Ft McPherson... · 2015-01-29 · Fort McPherson, N.W.T. PROCEEDINGS AT COMMUNITY HEARING Volume 12 The 2003 electronic version prepared