CPUC PPH Bakersfield Transcript

PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION, STATE OF CALIFORNIASAN FRANCISCO, CALIFORNIA

BEFORE THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION

OF THE

STATE OF CALIFORNIA

ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE AMY YIP-KIKUGAWA, presiding

Application of Pacific Gas andElectric Company for Approval ofModifications to its SmartMeter™Program and Increased RevenueRequirements to Recover the Costs ofthe Modifications. (U39M)

And Related Matters.

))))))))))

PUBLICPARTICIPATIONHEARING

Application11-03-014;A.11-03-015;A.11-07-020

REPORTER'S TRANSCRIPTBakersfield, California

December 13, 2012Pages 685 - 709

Volume - 6

Reported by: Alejandrina E. Shori, CSR No. 8856

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686

I N D E X

* * * * *

STATEMENTS

MR. CERDA 696

MR. FREITAS 700

MS. BRETZ 702

MR. FREITAS 704

MS. BASSEY 705

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BAKERSFIELD, CALIFORNIA

13 DECEMBER, 2012 - 6:00 P.M.

* * * * *

ADMINISTRATIVE LAW JUDGE YIP-KIKUGAWA:

We'll be on the record. The Commission will

come to order.

This is the time and place set for

the Commission for a public participation

hearing in Applications 11-03-014, 11-03-015,

and 11-07-020. These applications address

cost and cost allocation issues related to

providing an option for gas and electric

utility residential customers who do not wish

to have the wireless meters installed in

their location.

Good evening. I'm Administrative

Law Judge Amy Yip-Kikugawa. And seated to my

left is Carol Brown who is chief of staff to

Commission president Michael Peevey.

And Ms. Brown, would you like to

say a few words?

MS. BROWN: Yes. On behalf of

President Peevey, he really welcomes all of

you, taking time out of your busy evenings

especially during the holiday season, to come

and talk to us because it's very important

that we get out and leave San Francisco

occasionally and come out and visit where all

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688

of the rest of California lives and to hear

from you. So on behalf of President Peevey,

thank you for coming. And I'm here to listen

and report back to him, along with the record

the court reporter will be creating, and let

him know exactly what you have to say this

evening. Thank you.

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Okay, thank you

Ms. Brown.

Okay, as I said, this is a public

participation hearing. And that really is

what we're here to do, is to hear directly

from the public and have them speak to the

Commission. Everyone who does wish to speak

this evening will have the opportunity to do

so. And if you have not yet provided your

name to the Public Advisor's Office, please

go to the back and do so now. I will be

calling you up one by one.

I do have a couple of housekeeping

matters before we have begin. That is, as

Ms. Brown mentioned, we do have a court

reporter here who will be preparing

a transcript. Therefore I do ask that when

I do call your name up, that you speak into

the microphone and speak clearly and slowly

so that she can take down every word. And I

am going to be asking also the audience to

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689

please not interrupt the speakers because

the reporter can't get a clear and accurate

record if that's the case.

We are going to be about two hours

for these hearings and each person will have

about three minutes to speak. And about

halfway through, we are going to take a short

break for the reporter maybe about five to

ten minutes.

And again, we do want to hear from

the public your statements. This isn't

a question and answer session so I'm not

going to be doing a lot of speaking once we

start hearing from all of you.

But what I'd like to do is first

give a real short overview of the proceeding

and how the procedural aspects of

the decision will be made here.

Earlier this year, the Commission

has voted out a series of decisions that had

directed the three investor-owned

utilities -- Pacific Gas and Electric,

San Diego Gas & Electric Company, and

Southern California Edison Company -- to

modify their advance metering infrastructure

program to include an option for residential

customers to opt out of having a wireless

SmartMeter at their location. All three of

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690

the orders adopted AMI fees and opened

a second phase of the proceeding to consider

the cost that should be recovered by

the utilities as well as how those costs

would be recouped from customers. And that's

where we are at this point.

Southern California Gas Company has

not had an order yet directing them to modify

their advance metering infrastructure program

to also include an opt-out option. However,

they do have an application that's pending at

this point. And even though that application

hasn't been acted on, SoCalGas is

participating in the proceeding and looking

at adopting a permanent piece of this point

as well.

All three utilities have already

served testimony on what their cost proposals

are, and we did hold evidentiary hearings on

the testimony. Witnesses were called up and

they were cross-examined by not only the

Commission's Division of Ratepayer Advocates

but also by numerous consumer groups. Those

hearings have been completed, but we have as

part of the record all of their testimony and

the exhibits.

Next what's going to be coming in

are briefs filed by the utilities and the

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691

intervenors, the consumer groups. At the

same time, we're looking at the complete

record. So that's going to include input

from ratepayers and customers as well.

Letters have been coming in. They

do get circulated among the Commissioners'

offices and also to me. We looked at

the lot -- we looked at them. We received

numerous e-mails. They're putting those into

the record as well.

In addition to coming here to

speak, I have already received a large number

of letters from people who weren't able to

come to the public participation meetings but

did want to express their opinions of

the opt-out fees that are under

consideration. So please understand that you

are being heard. We do read your letters and

we do take them into consideration as we are

working toward a decision.

In terms of a proposed decision,

I will, based on all the evidence that is

presented in this proceeding, prepare

a proposed decision that I will be putting

forward for the Commission to vote on. The

commissioners may vote on that or they may

come out with a different outcome, and one of

them may have prepared what's called an

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692

alternate decision. Once it is voted out,

whatever decision is voted out by

the Commission, that is the Commission's

decision. And at this point, we probably

won't have a final decision out for

consideration until later in the spring.

Are there any questions?

(No response)

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Yes, sir?

MR. FREITAS: Are you the final

authority and it's just your opinion that you

submit? Is it just an opinion or a brief

that you do?

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: I will be writing

a proposed decision for the commissioners to

consider and the commissioners, that will

have a certain outcome. If the commissioners

agree with my outcome, they will vote on that

and that will be the decision of

the Commission and that outcome will be

adopted.

UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: What would you

consider your weight, what's the weight of

that outcome? What is the weight, what is

the weight? How do you weigh the value of

what you do compared to what they can do to

accept it or reject it? How valuable is your

input?

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693

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: I would like to say

my input is very valuable. Of all the

decisions I've written, very few have been

voted out as alternates.

MR. FREITAS: Okay.

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: I try to come up

with a reasoned decision based on

the evidence. And I do meet with the

commissioners and explain why I came out with

the output I did. So in some respect, they

know I know the record and it is a lot of

what does the record say and how have

I interpreted the record and weighed it.

Anything else?

(No response)

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Okay. Now, I'd just

like to make a couple of quick introductions

before we proceed.

I have sitting right in front of me

here Varouj Jinbachian who is from our Public

Advisor's Office, and Mr. Jinbachian is going

to just briefly explain the role of

the Public Advisor's Office.

MR. JINBACHIAN: Thank you, your Honor.

Good evening and welcome. My name

is Varouj Jinbachian and I'm with the Public

Advisor's Office of the Public Utilities

Commission.

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694

First, I would like to say if you

have a mobile device, if you could please put

it on silent mode. That way you do not

disturb others.

The Public Advisor's Office assists

the public in participating in PUC

proceedings. We facilitate public

proceedings such as this. Our staff is

outside to sign up speakers. And if you'd

like to make a comment here tonight, please

sign up with them if you haven't done so yet.

You can also send in written comments. We

have an agenda outside and on the back of the

agenda there's our mailing address and e-mail

address. And if you send us written

comments, we will route those to the judge

and also the commissioners' offices so they

will see your comments.

We also have a free subscription

service where you could receive updates on

this proceeding or any other proceeding

you're interested in. Again, on the agenda,

on the back of it, there's a link for

the subscription service. And if you have

any questions on how to sign up, please ask

one of our staff outside or you could talk to

me afterwards.

Actually, I should point out that

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695

the judge said there will be a time limit for

the speaks. I wanted to point out that

there's a timer right up there so it will

count down how much time you have when you're

speaking.

Thank you very much for coming.

MR. FREITAS: One quick question. How

do you become an intervenor?

MR. JINBACHIAN: Let's talk about it

separately outside.

MR. FREITAS: Okay.

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Okay. The other

thing I'd like to do is just introduce a few

other people. Over on this side, I have

Mr. Mendoza.

MR. MENDOZA: (Indicating.)

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: And Ms. Barris.

MS. BARRIS: (Indicating.)

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: They are from

the Gas Company.

And then over here we have

Mr. Bayless who is from PG&E.

MR. BAYLESS: (Indicating.)

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: They are directly

involved with the advanced metering

infrastructure program. So if you have any

questions, you may speak with them and they

will attempt to address all of them. If they

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696

can't, they can always refer to the

appropriate person at PG&E as necessary.

We also have, as you came into this

meeting room, the customer service

representatives from both the Gas Company and

PG&E. And if you have any questions about

your bill, if you'd like sign up for

the opt-out program or anything else, you can

speak with them also after the meeting.

Okay, so now I'd like to proceed

with our public comment period, and first

person is Lionel Cerda. If you can please

come up Mr. Cerda. And that will be followed

by Keith Freitas.

STATEMENT OF MR. CERDA

MR. CERDA: My name is Lionel Cerda.

And how should I address you, "your

Honor"?

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: That's fine.

MR. CERDA: Okay. Well, my comment is

why bother, why I came, but I just want my

voice to be heard.

Why did they even begin with

the SmartMeter when people have to pay an

extra additional charge?

And what if -- my self-research was

that it was an ex-CEO that was part of PG&E

that just wanted to invest and make money.

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697

And it seemed like it's going to be a double

effort on the public just to opt-out.

Because he was an ex-CEO, he had connections

to PG&E, if I'm right on that.

So, you know, my question is why

bother, because why did they even begin to do

that?

You know, with all this high-tech

stuff, the more the public has to -- they

encounter a lot of problems with these

SmartMeters. And me myself, I'm going to

keep it because, you know, it's just to me

a waste of time. And you know, these

higher -- these higher-ups profit off

the public. That's what I -- that's the way

I see it. They're profiting off the public,

the small person.

And like I said, my comment was why

bother. I was -- why bother? Why bother?

I bothered to come up here just to air my

grievance against the Pub- -- why did they

even begin to do that?

So as I see my time, I'm just

trying to be real brief as possible.

And you know with the CPUC,

the California Public Utilities Commission,

I've said it before and I'll say it again,

they've been in bed with PG&E for years. And

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698

that's the way I see it, you know. And

that's just my frustration and my anger that

I want to air out because it's the people

that are paying the rates. It's going to be

affecting them.

So I'd just like to, I'd like to

see some kind of, I would say -- trying to

grasp for the right words -- some positive

outcome for the public.

And before I finish my addressing,

this is a public hearing to address our

comments but I just don't want to seem like

I'm angry or frustrated but, you know, it

just goes back to people are just -- they're

already in and they want to get more deep

into it.

It's not who you know -- what's

that -- there's some words I'm trying to

grasp. I guess it's part of my dementia.

There's some short-term memory loss.

I'm just trying to voice my opinion

and my comments to that effect, you know.

It affects me, it affects

the public, it affects the state of

California and nationwide. I don't know if

it's a nationwide thing. There's so many

things that I read, so many materials. I've

come to a point where I don't know who to

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believe, you know. It's what you make of it.

It's what I would say when it gets out in the

media whether it's print, electronic,

Internet, just don't know who to believe

because they throw so much, their take, their

take on the situation. But I don't know.

The self-research I've done like in

the past, the first meeting that I attended,

there was a CEO, if my memory serves me

right, Peter Darbee. That was when he got

$12.9 million for one year. Was this one

year? Like I said in the past, why stop

there? Just give him triple that.

But that just goes to the effect of

the SmartMeters, why the public has to

opt-out and pay when you guys started --

I mean, not you guys, but the people that

I see that you guys are in bed with. You

guys have a strange political bedfellows that

you guys lie with. And there's where my,

once again, my frustration, my anger, where

I have to voice --

Did I pass my three minutes?

So I'm just going to finish right

there because it's the same thing that I'm

going to be saying over and over. So I just

want to thank you for your time and patience

and hearing my, I guess, one still voice.

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700

Thank you very much.

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Thank you very much.

Mr. Freitas.

STATEMENT OF MR. FREITAS

MR. FREITAS: Okay, your Honor, first

of all, I wanted to object to

the three-minute limitation. I find that

very offensive.

Second of all, if I was to title

this little comment I'm going to make I would

call it the Consumer Liabilities Act and the

Consumer Liberties Act.

Utilities assume responsibility for

what's best for the consumer whether

their motives are profit-based. The utility

seeks utilitarian-type control over its own

markets. This creates an environment for

the lack of proper protective checks and

balances that would work under normal

capitalistic standards similar to

self-policing.

If the public puts its trust in its

methodology and corporate madness, it risks

losing power over its own destiny.

Self-absorbing, more profit-driven utilities

will be left unchecked and would hold control

over that golden goose that lays the golden

egg.

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701

Plunging one's -- this is what PG&E

did. Plunging one's own assets headlong and

head forward into a campaign to replace

equipment in a totalitarian style in a manner

that includes the immediate destruction of

existing equipment is in fact evidence of

a dysfunctional and out-of-control

management.

I'd like to make some direct

points. And I have to preface this with the

fact that I'm preparing a complaint that's

going to be filed and PG&E and its executives

will be named in the complaint, members of

the consumer protection agency, and CPUC. So

I have to relent back on some facts to

disclose to protect that complaint.

PG&E has self-inflicted their own

damages through its own negligence by

destroying old meters, taking that upon

themselves. We shouldn't have to pay for

that. PG&E spent $53 million in a reverse

spin campaign, public campaign and an

advertising campaign to try to convince

people that they aren't the bad guy, they

didn't do this in the wrong way, and

everything's okay, they are doing this for

our best interest. Well, that number should

be taken out of the cost. Why would you want

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702

to charge the public for two -- on the basis

of two things that they did were

self-inflicting caused by their own

negligence.

They negotiate their way out of

negligent cause of disasters constantly.

They get out of paying for fires. They

damaged the public lands, private land. They

don't have to pay for the cost of expenses of

those damages. And their acts are negligent.

And they also, they also -- I cannot disclose

certain facts, but PG&E and their intentional

abuse of General Order 95 needs to be

examined extremely deep.

Thank you.

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Thank you.

Maryanne Bretz.

STATEMENT OF MS. BRETZ

MS. BRETZ: My name is Maryanne Bretz.

I drove 100 miles to come here tonight to

talk to you because this is that important to

me. You don't have very many people here.

But in my talking to people about this

SmartMeter installation in our area -- that's

in Visalia -- people are -- people hate these

things. They don't want them because of lots

of reasons.

And it seems to me that this

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703

increase in the opt-out fees is simply to

make it to that less people can afford to

opt-out.

So I believe that this meeting was

called on being on the 13th of December, I'm

in retail, there's no way that I should be

here. I also have a mail order house.

There's also no way that I should be here.

So this is -- and other people that feel

the same way I do, have not come because of

the day that you chose to have this meeting.

And what the CPUC will say, well,

nobody came and nobody cared. Well, it's

probably because of the date that you chose.

So in my business and with my

contacts in talking to people, what we would

like to see happen is that customers should

be allowed to opt-out of SmartMeters before

and after deployment. Customers should not

be charged any set-up fee or monthly charges

for SmartMeter refusal. There should be no

differentiation for businesses versus person

household customers on SmartMeter policies.

Why does a business not have the opportunity

to opt out?

We would ask that you prohibit SCE

and other utility providers from shutting off

utility service to customers who refuse

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704

SmartMeter installations, and allow customers

to keep analog meters on their homes and

businesses without penalties or up-charges.

That's my request.

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Thank you.

Okay, those are all the speakers

who had signed up. Is there anyone else in

the audience who would like to say a few

words or make a comment?

(No response)

MR. FREITAS: If I could have some

extra time, I'd like to say something else.

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: All right.

STATEMENT OF MR. FREITAS

MR. FREITAS: I would just like to

ditto what the lady just said. And add to my

speech that one of the conclusions of it was

that, yeah, this is the reason I'm bringing

that point up is that PG&E self-inflicted

their own pain and to try to take it out of

the skin of the consumer now for their

decision, their sole decision to invent that

meter, they're going to save labor costs.

They got rid of a ton of labor. They fired

people so we lost jobs because of that meter.

They fired people. They used that equation

to spend $53 million in advertising and they

get out of paying for fires and other

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705

disasters like San Bruno, and they negotiate

discounts and their way out with the dollar

bill and they pay out CPUC.

So my bottom line is that they

should not only be dismantled and taken over

by the state and become a public entity.

The executives should all go to prison. And

then also you should not charge people any

fee whatsoever. As a matter of fact, PG&E

should pay the consumer for the damages they

caused for coming out to their property and

putting the SmartMeter in in the first place.

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Thank you. Are

there --

MS. BROWN: We're not that scary. If

you came all the way out here, we'd love to

hear you. You don't have to prepare anything

ahead of time. Just stand up and tell us

what you'd like to say.

Good. Thank you for being brave.

STATEMENT OF MS. BASSEY

MS. BASSEY: Good evening. My name is

Katie Bassey. My last name is spelled B-a-s

as in Sam, s-e-y.

I came here with my children

because I've always been concerned about the

monopoly of PG&E. I strongly feel that if

there was competition, that part of our

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706

capitalist movement, if you will, that prices

would be down. And I do think it's a result

of the monopoly that we have the SmartMeter

issue.

I do recall when it was first

installed in my home back in 2007-2008, that

it was an issue as far as controversy. There

was a lot of concern, fear of the unknown,

people not knowing what it would entail, what

the cost would be, fluctuation in their bill,

which is pretty much everyone's concern. And

I'd just disagree with the move to have --

again, a reiteration of what was already

said -- a fee for an opt-out.

And I do believe that there should

be competition encouraged as far as

monitoring usage is concerned.

I'm not sure that I really have

much to put in besides that. I actually came

here to learn more about what the situation

was but, you can see, participation was

pretty low.

I just wanted to put in my say.

Thank you for listening.

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Thank you very much.

Okay. I was going to say we have

some students here from Ridgeview High School

for a class and I was wondering if any of you

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707

had any thoughts that you would like to share

with us. No?

Well, we do appreciate that all of

you did take the time to come out here.

I realize that for many people it is an

inconvenient time.

And I want to encourage, Ms. Bretz,

the people that you were saying who could not

show up, I do encourage them to write letters

to me in care of the Public Advisor's Office

or even addressed directly to me. I read

the letters and I do like to make sure that

I do hear from the public. So if we do have

anybody who felt couldn't make it today, tell

them that they still have an opportunity to

participate.

The public participation hearing,

it's for us to hear your voices but we also

hear your voices through letters and e-mails,

so I encourage that as well.

Is there anything else before we

conclude?

(No response)

ALJ YIP-KIKUGAWA: Okay. Then there

being nothing further, then we are concluded

at this point, and we are off the record.

///

///

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708

(Whereupon, at the hour of6:30 p.m., this matter having beencontinued to 3:00 p.m., December 14,2012 at Santa Barbara, California, theCommission then adjourned.)

* * * * *

BEFORE THE PUBLIC UTILITIES COMMISSION

OF THE

STATE OF CALIFORNIA

Application of Pacific Gas andElectric Company for Approval ofModifications to its SmartMeter™Program and Increased RevenueRequirements to Recover the Costs ofthe Modifications. (U39M)

And Related Matters.

))))))))))

Application11-03-014;A.11-03-015;A.11-07-020

CERTIFICATION OF TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDING

I, Alejandrina E. Shori, Certified Shorthand

Reporter No. 8856, in and for the State of California

do hereby certify that the pages of this transcript

prepared by me comprise a full, true and correct

transcript of the testimony and proceedings held in

the above-captioned matter on December 13, 2012.

I further certify that I have no interest in the

events of the matter or the outcome of the proceeding.

EXECUTED this 13th day of December, 2012.

_________________________Alejandrina E. ShoriCSR No. 8856

Documents

CPUC PPH Bakersfield Transcript