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VeloceToday.com The Online Magazine for Italian and French Classic Car Enthusiasts Home BOOKSTORE SUBSCRIBE ABOUT US CONTACT Donate $25 Ads As Found Alfa Romeo 164 V10 Pro Car: From F1 to Four-Door by pete on May 19, 2015 Mean looking 620 hp Alfa 164 Procar. And much faster than it looks. . Story and photography by Roberto Motta, archive photography by Automobilismo Storico Alfa Romeo Centro Documentazione The history of the 164 Pro-Car has its origin in 1985, when Alfa Romeo decided to return to the Formula 1 World Championship, and the management decided that they would build a new 3.5 liter engine, which would be installed in the French F1 Ligier. At this time, Pino D’Agostino, one of the world’s most famous engineers, was convinced that it Alfa Romeo 164 V10 Pro Car: From F1 to Four-Door http://www.velocetoday.com/alfa-romeo-164-v10-pro-car-from-f1-to-f... 1 de 10 21/5/2015 14:01

Alfa Romeo 164 V10 Pro Car

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Alfa Romeo 164 Pro-Car.From F1 to 4 door car.Folder about a exclusive Alfa 164 made fro Race Tracks.

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    Alfa Romeo 164 V10 Pro Car: From F1 toFour-Doorby pete on May 19, 2015

    Mean looking620 hp Alfa 164 Procar. And much faster than it looks..Story and photography by Roberto Motta, archive photography by Automobilismo StoricoAlfa Romeo Centro Documentazione

    The history of the 164 Pro-Car has its origin in 1985, when Alfa Romeo decided to return to theFormula 1 World Championship, and the management decided that they would build a new 3.5liter engine, which would be installed in the French F1 Ligier.

    At this time, Pino DAgostino, one of the worlds most famous engineers, was convinced that it

    Alfa Romeo 164 V10 Pro Car: From F1 to Four-Door http://www.velocetoday.com/alfa-romeo-164-v10-pro-car-from-f1-to-f...

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  • was possible to balance a 72 degree V10 engine. He reasoned that if 8 cylinders had been thebest engine in the Formula 3000, a V10 would be the best engine for the new Formula 1. Afterreceiving the necessary authorization, in November 1985 the V10 project officially began.Engineer DAgostino was the head of this project and had a great team: Bodini, Bordoni, Flor,Giani, Mazzoleni, Rossetti, Teruzzi and Turina. In an amazingly short time, the Alfa RomeoV1035 (10 cylinders, 3.5 liters) engine became the first modern F1 V10 engine (Honda presenteda model of the engine only one month after the introduction of the Italian V10 while Renaultproduced its V10 the following year).

    Holy Nascar!

    On 1st July 1986, the V10 engine was started for the first time, and developed 583hp. Thanks toits technical parameters, which are still used in Formula 1 engines, the Alfa V10 became thereference point for other project managers.Technically the 10 cylinders are formed by two banks of five with an opening of 72, the block isin aluminum-silicon alloy. The connecting rods are titanium, molded pistons with high densitysilicon, with two ring segments, and are cooled with oil jets. Initially, the heads featured fourvalves per cylinder but later the engine was equipped with five valves per cylinder. The valves aretitanium, activated by spring in tappets, action is transmitted to the valves by four camshafts withphase variations, two for each head. A titanium flywheel was connected to the crankshaft. In itslast version, the fantastic V10 Alfa Romeo engine produced 620hbp at 13300rpm, with a maxtorque of 39kgm at 9500rpm.

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  • AlfaV-10from F1 to Four Door.Unfortunately, sometime later, Vittorio Ghidella (Fiats General Manager) broke off therelationship with Ligier and the dream of returning to F1 with the Alfa Romeo engine vanished.

    For some time the V10 remained abandoned in an corner of the workshop, but then the topmanagement of the Fiat group decided to use the V10 for their new program, the Pro-Carproject.The Pro-Car (or Production Car) series was a formula for competition cars designed to lookexactly like the version of the standard road car. But these were to be hot rodsperhaps more likeFunny Cars, which could use the mechanics and technical solutions that derived from F1, thanksto the regulations which permitted a lot of freedom in the construction.

    Alfa Procar

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  • ready for inspection.Among the few restrictions contemplated by the regulations; the car could had a weight no lessthat 750kg (1650 lbs) and the use of a 3500cc engine with no more than 12 cylinders (the lastclause of the regulations was a way to involve the big car companies in the supply of enginesdestined to F1). It was expected that major companies would participate in the Pro Car seriesbecause of the high tech nature and obvious advertising opportunities, given that the series wouldhave featured all-out racing cars, yet that had a bodywork exactly like the standard cars.

    Alfa Romeo now had a fantastic V10 engine but would have had to develop a new, rigid andlightweight chassis. That problem was solved by giving Brabham the order to construct a chassiscomposed of a central cell with beehive structure, realized in Nomex aluminum and covered incarbon fiber panels. The choice of the Brabham factory made use of a synergy which had alreadyexisted since the mid-1970s, when the Milanese company supplied boxer engines for the F1BT45, and from the fact that the English factory had a great deal of experience in the field ofcomposite materials.

    Here sat thedriver of the faster Alfa four door ever,After many technical meetings, fifteen engines and two cars were completed by September 1988.One these cars was given to Giorgio Francia for a test on the private track of Balocco. Franciatested the car about ten days before the Italian Grand Prix and was impressed by the speed andthe acceleration of the car, which also demonstrated that it was well balanced. During the tests,the 164 Pro-Car reached a top speed of 340km/h, (211 mph) and was possible to drive a quarterof a mile in only 9.7 seconds, and to reach one kilometer from a stop took 17.5 seconds.

    A few days later, 9th September 1988, during the weekend dedicated to the Italian Grand Prix,the 164 Pro-Car made its debut into society on the Monza track. It was an exceptional debut, justa few unforgettable laps, but which showed all the potential of a fantastic car. Driven by Brabhamdriver Riccardo Patrese, it reached a speed of 329 km/h, a speed much higher than that reachedby the F1 cars entered in the Grand Prix! It was an impressive debut; in which the performancewas easy reached, thanks to aerodynamics that had a CX value much less than that of a single

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  • seater.

    And never tobe seen on the track.

    Unfortunately this was the only dance for the 164 Pro-Car, for aside from Alfa, there was noother company which was willing to take the risk and front the costs for developing a car for thechampionship. The Pro-Car series never got underway, and the 164 Pro-Car became a researchlaboratory. A championship similar to the Pro-Car series was held only years later, called WorldTouring Championship ITC. Alfa Romeo, Mercedes and GM-Opel developed cars which were sointeresting that they almost overshadowed the F1 Championship, with the consequence that theFIA cancelled the very popular World Touring Car Championship.

    Tagged as: Alfa 164, Alfa Pro Car, Alfa Romeo, Alfa Romeo V10 Pro Car, Alfa Romeoi 164,Alfa V10

    { 10 comments read them below or add one }

    Peter Linsky May 19, 2015 at 10:49 am

    Fascinating

    What became of this car? Does it survive?

    Michael Catsch May 19, 2015 at 10:52 am

    Pete, just to have some moving pictureshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgGSa6pewdEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k_gKGKAnFG8

    Best regards Michael

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  • ira kaufman 'cowfy' May 19, 2015 at 11:44 am

    now if we could construct a 4 valve head with two plugs per cylinder for this engine and putit in my GtV6

    toly atunoff May 19, 2015 at 3:20 pm

    something really has to be done about the effed-up fia. heaven forbid something mightoutshine their blessed f1. any of you oldsters remember when f1 was a slightly esotericexercise? when the 12-hr reims sportscar race would get 3 times the coverage in a car magcompared to an f1 race? bring back THOSE days.

    Michael Catsch May 19, 2015 at 3:38 pm

    @Peter Linsky,the car was shown at Goodwood FoS in 2010 (100th anniversary of AR)..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_RSpFN3aGE

    video shows some stills from FoS-with the famous Goodwood Silvesticker 164 on theC-post of the car. Think(?) it still belongs to the AR museum..??

    Michael

    Chris Martin May 19, 2015 at 8:52 pm

    There are so many errors and details missed in this story I believe it does not merit inclusionon this website. Sorry Pete, very disappointed, (but I wont be surprised if you dont addthis comment).

    Michael Dunn May 20, 2015 at 6:29 am

    Why dont you, Chris Martin, outline the inaccuracies, so we the uninitiated, can beenlightened.Its churlish to throw something like this out there without substantiation or at leastamplification.It is a public forum is it not?

    pete May 20, 2015 at 9:05 am

    Michael,

    Below are Chris Martins comments. I think they serve to clarify many of the issuesaddressed in the article. Chris Martin is a contributor to VeloceToday, author of MontiersFrench Racing Fords. He worked for the F1 Arrows team in the early 1990s and now lives

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  • in Australia.

    Some corrections re the Alfa 164 Pro-Car story you first ran in 2007.Mr Motta says that the story began when Alfa Romeo decided to return to Formula One in1985, they had in fact been racing under their own name since 1979, and as an enginesupplier before that.

    Pro-Car was originally planned for identical BMW M1 cars to be driven by F1 and otherinvited star drivers. This had been cooked up by Bernie Ecclestone (hereafter referred to asB.E.) and Max Moseley along with Jochen Neerspach of BMW and ran alongside the F1races of 1979 and 1980. After homologation the BMW M1 was raced in the Group 4 classand other series came and went as part of the program supporting the F1 races. In themid-eighties B.E. suggested a new, improved Pro-Car to be called Formula S as asilhouette formula for manufacturers stock sedans powered by the new generation 3.5 litreF1 engines then being developed, so if the Alfa had ever got as far as racing it would nothave been called Pro-Car but Formula S. It is though a pity it never happened, as bothRenault and Honda came up with fantastic 3.5 litre engines and both had suitable sedans intheir range, and if maybe a similar Ford/Cosworth was thrown in the mix it could have beena big draw. Peugeot and Subaru were rumoured to be interested and when it was obvious itwasnt going to happen in 89 it was postponed until 1990 to give potential constructorsmore time, but nothing further came of it.Alfa Romeo had been in agreement to supply the 4-cylinder turbo engine to the Ligier teamfor the 1987 season, but when Rene Arnoux went public with some severe criticism afterinitial testing, it was decided by the FIAT board to withdraw Alfa Romeo from F1, althoughthis may also have been just a useful excuse to get out as FIAT did not need to be fundingAlfa to race in F1 against Ferrari which it also owned. Ligier were forced to quicklynegotiate a supply of BMW engines through Megatron so any plans for Ligier to later usethe new V10 were already history by then.

    There must have been other internal politics at work too, as while Alfa had the go-ahead todevelop a V10 for the next generation of F1 rules when turbos were to be banned, Ferrariwere at the same time threatening to quit F1 if the new rules did not allow V12s, this ofcourse was resolved, but that is another story.Alfa Romeo did not give Brabham the order to construct a chassis. B.E. sold MotorRacing Developments (MRD), the company which built the Brabham race cars, to FIATspecifically for this purpose. B.E. had previous ties with Alfa from some earlier jointsuccesses in F1, but nevertheless, with hindsight, this would seem to prove once againB.E.s ability as a successful businessman. This venture had nothing to do with the BrabhamF1 team; MRD was a separate company and Brabhams entry as an F1 team was sold on toSwiss financier Joachim Lthi (via Walter Brun) and subsequently to the JapaneseMiddlebridge Group. To confuse things further, MRD gave the Alfa the in-house projectname of BT57 thus keeping to the old Brabham chassis numbering tradition; this was mostlikely just for convenience of internal use, and never intended to be known as a BrabhamAlfa car. The chassis was designed by John Baldwin and the body panels were made incarbon/Kevlar from moulds taken directly from a stock 164 sedan supplied by Alfa.MRD had already taken over the building at Colnbrook near Heathrow Airport that hadpreviously been the base for the short-lived F1 project Beatrice/Force/Haas/Lola (call itwhat you will), and this was to be the new manufacturing facility for the Alfa 164 racer. Ibelieve B.E., or at least one of his many companies, owned the building which was leasedback to MRD, and consequently sub-let to Alfa Romeo. It was from here that B.E. also ranthe Alfa 164 Celebrity Challenge with assistance from John MacDonald, (previously

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  • owner of the RAM F1 team and former Brabham team manager). This was prior to thelaunch of the 164 Pro-Car and was a series of races supporting European F1 races in the1988 season using standard 164 sedans featuring invited celebrities; probably local sportsor TV heroes. Nothing much came of this, but it was a further link between B.E.smarketing ability and the Alfa Romeo management.

    Here is a link to a short film on Youtube of the round supporting the French GP at LeCastellet.https://www.youtube.com/v/Z7vyqhu5q34

    After the Formula S project was in turn canned, it then became the base for the equallyill-advised March-Alfa Indycar program, (of which I could tell a lot more, to correct someoft-repeated myths). It is reported that the building was bought by Alfa in 88 and then byMarch Engineering in 89, but it seems more likely that one of B.E.s companies still ownedit and just leased it out. Whether sold, sub-let, or leased, B.E., had the use of about aquarter of the floor space for his own projects. The last time I saw inside that factory manyyears ago at the end of the March-Alfa days, part of it was still occupied by B.E.scollection of old Brabham racers and a two, or three, man team of carpenters and cabinetmakers who were reputedly only there to make custom made furniture for B.E.sKensington penthouse!

    There were many glowing reports about that one-off demonstration by Patrese at Monzaand it certainly generated a lot of press interest, but all was not what it seemed. Due tolimitations of the body and chassis design it had smaller rear wheels than was ideal and hadto run that day with some old Michelin tyres that were past their best, so although Ricardowas able to give it a good blast off the Parabolica and along the main straight, he was notable to give it best for the whole lap.It is believed that two of these 164s were built, and certainly one had still been on display atthe Alfa museum recently, although the fate of the other is not known, one source suggestsit was in the USA as recently as 2010, maybe someone knows more about that?

    Richard Kreines May 20, 2015 at 2:41 pm

    211 mph is not faster than 234 mph and from a 2 litre Alfa. Thats why Bonnie is theWorlds fastest Alfa Romeo Ever and holds 2 Land Speed records at Bonneville. The otherV 10 3.5 litre Alfa raced at Indy with Roberto Guerero wh0 parked it on the wall afterqualifying at 225. Are there any others?

    Chris Martin May 20, 2015 at 6:14 pm

    Sorry for any confusion there folks, I did not know whether Peter would want to run mycorrections above in this comments section, or perhaps work them into an edited version ofMr Mottas report. The above was compiled as a series of notes and sent to Peter in thatform, I did not know he would publish it unedited, so, to clarify a couple of points. At thetime in question, I implied that FIAT owned Ferrari in 1987, but to be correct FIAT had justtaken Alfa Romeo off the Italian governments hands in 1986 and was soon to increase itsstake in Ferrari from 50% to 90% in 1988. My point being that there would have been littlevalue in the two brands racing each other in F1 when there were other possibilities for glory,and as Ferrari had a good history in F1 and was well established, it would have made sense

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  • to look for other opportunities for Alfa Romeo. The bad press resulting from Arnouxscomments were the perfect excuse, and gave them a good way to negate any contract withLigier. Note that also Lancia was still going well in rallying and had some recent smallsuccess in Group C with the fast but fragile Ferrari powered LC2. This mix of activities andthe internal politics of the FIAT Group will have had an influence on the 164 Pro-Carprogram, but even more so on the March-Alfa Indycar project that followed. That is aneven more complicated tale of who, what and when, which may follow another day.Peter mentions above that I worked for the Arrows F1 team. That was true in the first halfof the 90s, followed by three years with Stewart Grand Prix, which in turn became JaguarRacing. I took an early retirement in 2003 and came to Australia, but of course Jaguar thensold out to what is now the Red Bull team. Further back though, I had worked in allformulae from F Ford on up, built F3 cars for Ron Tauranac at Ralt, and of most interesthere, was recruited by March Engineering to work on the Alfa Indycar from 1989. I suspectall of the major corporations involved in big-budget racing programs have much tightersecurity now but the British racing car industry then was a fairly tight group of companiesand secrets did not last long.. I well remember having to sign various confidentialitycontracts when Ford bought out Stewart GP at the end of the 99 season, and I suspect thisis all taken much more seriously today, but in the period in discussion there was a certainamount of transparency, exchange of information, leaks or just plain spying so most peopleon the inside were aware of the deals done.I am not trying to discredit Mr Mottas writing, but I do get the impression he has got hisinformation from within the Alfa organisation or more probably the Museo Storico AlfaRomeo at Arese, and it is not surprising to find that Alfas version of history is notnecessarily the whole story.By the way, is there any news on whether the Alfa Museum is going to re-open anytime?Maybe Mr Motta would know about that too?

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