AFL ANTI-DOPING TRIBUNAL DAY FIVE CHAIRMAN: MR DAVID …media.heraldsun.com.au/multimedia/2015/aug/project/pdfs/... · 2015. 8. 9. · afl anti-doping tribunal tuesday, 12 january

AFL ANTI-DOPING TRIBUNALTUESDAY, 12 JANUARY 2015

DAY FIVE(TRANSCRIPT-IN-CONFIDENCE)

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CHAIRMAN: MR DAVID JONESMR JOHN NIXONMR WAYNE HENWOOD

COUNSEL ASSISTING: MR JUSTIN HOOPER

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MR J. GLEESON QC with MS R. ENBOM appeared on behalf of AFL.MR M. HOLMES QC with MR P. KNOWLES appeared on behalf of the

CEO of ASADA.MR D. GRACE QC with MR B. IHLE appeared on behalf of 32

players.MR D. HALLOWES appeared on behalf of Mr and

Mr

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.AFL Anti-Doping Tribunal DISCUSSION13/01/15

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CHAIRMAN: Good morning, everyone.MR GLEESON: Mr Chairman, I have a couple of matters that

I'd seek to raise at the outset.CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Gleeson.MR GLEESON: The first matter relates to the issue of whether

witnesses can give evidence on oath. It was raisedbriefly yesterday and I just raise for the Tribunal'sreference and that of our learned friends a provision inthe Evidence (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act. I'm justseeking to call it up on an electronic device. It issection 110 of the Evidence (Miscellaneous Provisions) Actwhich is one of the provisions that survived the UniformEvidence Act move. I will read it out.

It reads, "All courts and persons having by lawor by consent of the parties authority to hear and receiveand examine evidence are hereby empowered to administeroaths to all such witnesses as are legally called beforethem respectively."

So it occurs to us that there may be thepotential for this Tribunal to administer the oath byreason of the fact that arguably if the rules and theAnti-Doping Code collectively are read to mean that theparties have consented to the authority of these threepersons to hear and examine evidence, then you areempowered to administer the oath. I have copies of theprovisions available.

CHAIRMAN: Does it say what the form of oath is?MR GLEESON: No, but I think from memory - - -CHAIRMAN: It's usually in a schedule or something. I must say

I wasn't aware of this provision. When I answeredMr Holmes I was working on the basis that my experience

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had always been with Tribunals that there was a specificprovision empowering usually the chairman of the Tribunalto administer an oath.

MR GLEESON: Yes, I personally had some recollection of it,having been involved in the independent commission in theCatholic sex abuse cases where Mr Peter O'Callaghan hasrelied on that provision. I wasn't sure when the issuearose yesterday whether that provision survived theUniform Evidence Law, but we checked overnight and it has.There's little authority on it. There's a decision ofJustice Osborn in the Ashby matter that went to somepolice related body.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR GLEESON: The Queen v Noel Ashby.CHAIRMAN: But there was specific provision - from my

recollection, because I oversighted that office, it was aspecific provision in the Police Integrity Act giving thedirector or his delegate, in this case it was a delegateor supposedly delegate, power to administer an oath.

MR GLEESON: Yes.CHAIRMAN: But of course they are all statutory bodies. The

difference here is that we are a domestic body.MR GLEESON: Yes. It's really a question of whether in this

matter there is consent - - -CHAIRMAN: Mr Gleeson, this has got serious implications for

the Tribunal's normal business.MR GLEESON: Yes, it does.CHAIRMAN: We can ask people down there to take an oath. I'm

sure they will love doing that.MR GLEESON: Absolutely. That will keep things informal.

Anyway, I raise it for the reference of the Tribunal.

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CHAIRMAN: Certainly we have been proceeding on the basis thatwe didn't have power and that's why I answered whenMr Holmes queried it and so far we have had one witnesswho hasn't been sworn.

MR GLEESON: But who will return.CHAIRMAN: Who will return.MR GLEESON: As I understood proceedings yesterday, Professor

Handelsman was prepared to take an oath.CHAIRMAN: No question about that.MR GLEESON: It may be we can retrospectively apply it when he

returns.CHAIRMAN: He can confirm under oath the evidence he has

already given.MR GLEESON: Indeed.CHAIRMAN: All right. I don't know whether counsel for the

other parties have had a chance to consider the point.MR GLEESON: No, I haven't raised it with them as yet. I have

raised the second matter which I might draw to yourattention now. I'm just flagging an intention to make anapplication to the Tribunal. It arises by reason of thecross-examination yesterday of Professor Handelsman inrelation to the issue of TB500.

MR GRACE: Your examination or the cross-examination?MR GLEESON: No, the cross-examination.MR GRACE: Your examination dealt with it.CHAIRMAN: It depends how he wants to raise it. What is it,

the TB500?MR GLEESON: Yes. The application will be, and I have given

notice of this only in recent minutes to - - -CHAIRMAN: Is this an application to amend the infraction

notice?

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MR GLEESON: Well, an application for a ruling clarifying ordeclaring that the reference in the infraction notice toThymosin Beta-4 captures TB500, its synthetic analogue.Alternatively, an application for leave to amend theinfraction notice to insert the words - I will just findthe appropriate paragraph of the infraction notice.Paragraph 5(a) to include the words "alternatively itssynthetic analogue TB500". I have a short two-page notewhich I will distribute to the parties and we would seekto make that application, if it is opposed, at a timeconvenient to the Tribunal.

CHAIRMAN: Okay. I think the important thing is that counselfor the other parties have notice of it and have time toconsider it and then we will deal with it at a convenienttime in the proceedings.

MR GLEESON: Yes, thank you.CHAIRMAN: Anything else? Mr Holmes, we are back with you.MR HOLMES: I'm just aware the Tribunal issues a press release,

as I understand it, after each day's hearing.CHAIRMAN: Yes, I authorised a brief statement from yesterday.

I have seen this morning's Age. The statement fromyesterday just said that a medical expert had givenevidence and had been cross-examined and that was it.Somehow or other The Age has got information to connectthe professor to the medical expert.

MR HOLMES: We haven't been troubling ourselves to read thepress releases, but apparently they come out each day.I'm concerned that matters like that that Mr Gleeson hasforeshadowed, if they were in the press release - - -

CHAIRMAN: It wouldn't be. You may recall that in the rulingI indicated that we would, in keeping with trying to

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provide some information to the community, release someinformation each day, which is what we have done, andessentially that's been done through the AFL's facilities.I haven't thought it necessary to trouble counsel about itbecause it's been very short and very bland. But in theclimate that applies to this case obviously mediaorganisations will endeavour to spin it or elaborate. Wecan't do much about that, Mr Holmes. The only otheralternative is we say nothing, in which case they willprobably make up something anyway, to be honest.

MR HOLMES: We have no objection to - - -CHAIRMAN: But certainly we were conscious. There was no way

known, for example, that I would have agreed to anythingbeing put out identifying him. I didn't want to say"endocrinologist" because that might point to him, so wejust said "medical specialist". But they have obviouslyrun around and done a bit of homework.

MR HOLMES: All right.CHAIRMAN: And sold a few more newspapers.MR HOLMES: Matters such as Mr Gleeson has foreshadowed could

be taken out of context.CHAIRMAN: Exactly. It's purely just to give people an idea

where the proceedings are at, that's all. You will recallbefore Christmas we talked about the fact that you weregoing through documents and things like that.

MR HOLMES: All right. If I can resume the going throughdocuments. I think on 19 December - - -

MR GRACE: Before Mr Holmes does that, a couple of matters.CHAIRMAN: Yes, Mr Grace.MR GRACE: Of course, we have Mr Dank as a party to these

proceedings. He's aware of the evidence and he may or may

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not have been the source of certain information prior toChristmas that appeared in the newspapers. He may nowcontinue to be a source.

CHAIRMAN: I don't think Mr Dank's getting anything, is he?MR HOOPER: No, he's not.MR HOLMES: My last instructions were that we had been serving

him with the tranches of documents.CHAIRMAN: What about transcripts of - - -MR HOLMES: We haven't served him the transcripts.CHAIRMAN: The documents he's had.MR HOLMES: Yes. But we served them by delivering a CD or a

DVD with a covering letter to say that, "This contains thedisclosure material. However, it's encrypted. If youwould like to have access to it, please contact us and wewill instruct you how to gain access to the material onthe CD," so it doesn't go astray and the like. We havenot heard from Mr Dank.

CHAIRMAN: We haven't heard, Justin, have we?MR HOOPER: No.CHAIRMAN: The last communication was the one that I read into

the record at the directions hearing, when both legalpractitioners advised that they were no longer acting,that they had no instructions. You will be familiar whathappened before Justice Croft in terms of Dank. Myunderstanding is there was substituted service.

MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: On him in relation to documents concerning that

application. He didn't appear in that application. SoI assume that we will proceed on the basis that he won'tappear here. But we will still make a decision.Mr Grace?

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MR GRACE: Other matters I wanted to raise - - -CHAIRMAN: I assume you are not calling him as a witness.MR GRACE: I can't, I don't think. Anyway, I don't know where

to find him. In relation to the issue of the oath, wehave nothing to say. We have no objection to that course.If there is power under the legislation, we say nothing.The more important issue raised by Mr Gleeson concerns theforeshadowed application to amend the infraction notice.We would strongly object to that.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, but, look, I don't want to get into that now.He's foreshadowed it. He's indicated he's going toprovide you with some material. You should be given fairopportunity to fully consider your position and then allparties have the opportunity to put their arguments as towhat we do. The Tribunal does have power to amend thecharge or the infraction notice, but whether we do or notor whether we say this catches, how it's currently framed,catches this other substance, I don't know. Obviously wewill have to consider it carefully in the light ofsubmissions.

MR GRACE: There is an anterior issue, however. There issupervening federal government legislation called theASADA Act which incorporates a scheme called the NADscheme. The NAD scheme requires any allegation inrelation to a doping rule violation to be considered bythe CEO and then placed before an anti-doping reviewviolation panel. The ruling of that panel then determinesthe CEO's hand. If the panel determines that it'spossible that a possible anti-doping rule violation hasoccurred, it then advises the CEO of that fact and the CEOwould then advise the AFL. That's the procedure that was

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adopted in this case.If there is going to be an application to include

another substance which is a discrete substance, it wouldhave to go back before the panel, as far as we wereconcerned, and give us the opportunity - - -

MR HOLMES: We don't agree with that. But perhaps when we seethe submissions we can address that.

CHAIRMAN: That is obviously going to be part of the argument.MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: Mr Grace, I think we could say that we were in no

doubt that Mr Gleeson's foreshadowed application would beopposed.

MR GRACE: Yes. Could I also mention that yesterday at theclose of play there was discussion briefly with anindication from you, sir, as to the issue of theprovenance of text messages and the like. We have haddiscussions about that and we believe we will be able toreach a suitable accommodation which will significantlyrelieve everyone of the - - -

CHAIRMAN: That's good. I think we need to avoidovercomplicating this case as much as we can. That's noteasy because it's not a situation where the usual applies,which is the case with all the other matters I have dealtwith, where there are test results and the infraction isbased upon test results.

Here it is not based on test results. Acircumstantial case is being put, but it seems to us thetwo fundamental issues are, and they are both elements ofthe infraction: are we comfortably satisfied on all theevidence that the players received as it is currentlyframed Thymosin Beta-4? If we are not, that's the end of

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it. If we are, at the relevant time was Thymosin Beta-4 aprohibited substance? Essentially they are the two vitalelements.

We will be asking Mr Holmes in his concludingsubmissions, bearing in mind this is a circumstantialcase, to set out the facts and circumstances which theysay the Tribunal can use to draw the inference to a degreeof comfortable satisfaction that Thymosin Beta-4 was givento the players. Let's leave Mr Dank aside, there are awhole lot of other things with Mr Dank, and justconcentrate on the players. That's what would happen in acriminal trial with a circumstantial case. Theprosecution would need to in its submissions identify, notprecisely, but identify the facts and circumstances uponwhich they say the Tribunal can comfortably infer thatthat substance was received by the players. It's veryimportant that that happen because it's important not onlyto us but it's important to you in your case in yoursubmissions to know what the facts and circumstances are,rather than 15 volumes of documents that they say enablesthe Tribunal to draw the inference.

We will be guided by the authorities in relationto a circumstantial case. It's changed a little over timebecause the High Court has taken a bit of a differentposition to what it was originally with Shepherd andChamberlain, et cetera. But of course one of the bigdifferences is in a criminal trial you have to besatisfied beyond reasonable doubt to draw the inferenceand in this case it's comfortably satisfied. But that'swhat we will be asking Mr Holmes to do, Mr Grace, toassist us and to assist you and your colleagues.

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MR GRACE: Thank you, sir.CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes, I have my leg up here. I'm sorry, I'm

not travelling well at the moment. Somehow or otherI think I have succeeded in getting an infection in myleg, so I'm keeping it horizontal. Where are we up to,Mr Holmes? Can we go back and see where we were beforeChristmas?

MR HOLMES: I think the last document I read was - - -CHAIRMAN: AS-3.285.MR HOLMES: Yes, it's an email I think dated 12 March, but I'm

not going back to that email.CHAIRMAN: Okay.MR HOLMES: Just briefly to recap where we are, the players

have held their meeting in the auditorium. They have allsigned these supposed consent forms. We have looked attwo of the players as to they then subsequently hadinjections of Thymosin. At about this time I think I readsome emails where Mr Dank was involved in selling productsto Mr Deeble.

So I would now like to take the Tribunal toexhibit AS-5, the second volume of those three volumes.

CHAIRMAN: AS-5.2.MR HOLMES: Yes. It's the transcripts. It's Mr Robinson's

transcript under tab 16, so what was going on under thestand at Essendon.

CHAIRMAN: Tab 16?MR HOLMES: Yes. It is a lengthy interview with Mr Robinson on

19 March. At page 88 - - -MR GRACE: We object to this, sir. He's not being called.

He's available, we understand.CHAIRMAN: Will you want to cross-examine him?

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MR GRACE: We may. But if there's going to be reference now towhat Mr Robinson says and if it is going to be relied uponas to the truth of its contents, then we would want himcalled.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Grace, we are working on the basis at the momentthat, with respect to the material that's been tendered sofar, reliance is placed upon it. If someone likeMr Robinson - there's been reference to Robinson earlieron, for example, I think in relation to Robinson'sappointment to Essendon. But if you say, "Well, for hisevidence to be used we need to be able to cross-examinehim," as you have said with other witnesses, then if hecan be made available for cross-examination, fine. If hecan't be made available for cross-examination because hewon't attend, then he fits into the same category as theothers. Your submissions in relation to us being able touse this evidence in reaching a decision will then need tobe made.

MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: That applies to - because there's a lot of

statements, not only interviews, but there are otherstatements, leave aside text messages and things likethis, statements made to investigators. There are a lotof those in this material and if you object to any of thatbeing used without the maker being available to be calledfor cross-examination, then at an appropriate time thatneeds to be indicated. If they can't be made available,then they will form part of our consideration as towhether their statements should still be received by theTribunal notwithstanding the fact that they can't becross-examined.

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MR HALLOWES: Mr Chairman, when you say the appropriate time,I take it that will be clearly prior to the submissionsthat we will be making in relation to that.

CHAIRMAN: When we come, Mr Hallowes, to having submissions onthe question of the admissibility of this evidence, wewill want to identify with counsel what evidence it is interms of the people and the statements that they havemade.

MR HALLOWES: Yes. I only raise that rather than interruptingcontinuously throughout Mr Holmes's opening.

CHAIRMAN: Just so everyone is clear on that. So we then dealin those submissions with all evidence that falls intothis category.

MR HALLOWES: Thank you.CHAIRMAN: Is that okay?MR HALLOWES: Yes.MR HOLMES: Mr Jones, we would agree with that.CHAIRMAN: I have assumed that that's your position, Mr Holmes.MR HOLMES: For example, Mr Grace and his client are chopping

and changing. They gave us a list of the people theyrequired for cross-examination, and it didn't includeMr Robinson. So today is the first day that I have heardthat we are required to make efforts to get Mr Robinsonhere. They should give us a list of all the documentsthey object to because the person associated with thedocuments is not available for cross-examination.

CHAIRMAN: Particularly where we are talking about statementsor transcripts of interviews.

MR HOLMES: Yes. As I recall it, Mr Grace this morning startedby saying, "We may want to cross-examine him," and thenchanged that to the end, "Well, we do want to

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cross-examine him."CHAIRMAN: You have to be clear as to what the position is.MR HOLMES: Yes. We have spoken to Mr Earl - I'm referring

Mr Grace to Mr Hargreaves' letter of 9 December where theyrequested named witnesses to attend and to use our bestendeavours.

MR GRACE: If I could just answer that, sir.MR HOLMES: I haven't finished.MR GRACE: We did not know until now that there was going to be

reliance placed upon Robinson. There is a huge number ofinterviews and statements in this material. Until we hearall the opening, we don't know what's going to be reliedupon.

CHAIRMAN: I understand that.MR GRACE: Also, can I add that on that list that Mr Holmes is

relying upon is the name Mr John Nolan. We were informedthis morning, "We have no intention of calling Mr Nolan."So that's an example of a double-take on this.

CHAIRMAN: The important thing is that it's important for us tohave from Mr Holmes the basis upon which he essentiallyrelies for his case on this material, rather than having asituation where we get dumped with all of the materialand, "Well, you, Tribunal, you work it all out."

MR HOLMES: We started with a short outline and those - - -CHAIRMAN: That's right. That's what I wanted to say also in

following up the discussion we had yesterday. ASADA didprovide a short outline which just in brief compass setout the way in which the case was put. What you have beendoing subsequently is then taking us to the material, theprimary material that you say is below that summary.

MR HOLMES: It fleshes out those 18 paragraphs.

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CHAIRMAN: Yes, it fleshes out the summary. In the course ofthat you are referring to statements and you are referringto interviews and that sort of thing as part of your caseon the basis that that evidence will be available to theTribunal in making its decision. If it is objected to, wewill deal with the objection. But it is important for youto know, if it is objected to on the basis of the need forthe person to be cross-examined, you need to know that soyou can take whatever steps are open to you to have theperson attend. Nolan was one of the interviewers here,I notice.

MR HOLMES: He was one of the interviewers. He has not made astatement. He hasn't produced business records.

CHAIRMAN: As I indicated yesterday, we are looking at a voirdire type situation with respect to the statements. Theremay be a desire to cross-examine some of the people whowere present when the statements or the interviews wereconducted.

MR HOLMES: Can I hand up, just to dispose of it - - -CHAIRMAN: Anyway, we are on Robinson, Mr Holmes.MR HOLMES: I have Mr Earl's material, the attempts to get him

and the final - - -CHAIRMAN: Just hold on to it for the moment and we will pick

it up later.MR HOLMES: All right.CHAIRMAN: Because I think, as I said earlier on when we were

looking at questions of rulings, et cetera, the more weunderstand your case the better position we are in to dealwith these situations. That's why we are very anxious foryou to continue with your case.

MR HOLMES: So when we dive into the transcript, as you say,

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you are aware of the appointment of Mr Robinson,Mr Robinson's efforts to get Mr Dank involved and then howthey conducted themselves thereafter, the emails inJanuary and the like and their involvement in the consentforms. So we go, firstly, to page 88.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR HOLMES: Ms Kerrison is asking Mr Robinson, at the top of

the page, about Mr Stephen Dank. At line 15 she says,"All right. So when he was at the club where was hebased? Did he have an office? He did, and was downstairsaround - it was across from Jonah Oliver's office." Andyou know we have tendered photos. "Yeah. Suki Hobson andJustin Crowe had their offices nearby. All right. Wherewas that in relation to your office? My office wasupstairs at the time. Okay. Could you see his officefrom your office? No, I couldn't. What was in hisoffice? What sort of facilities did he have access to?"

Mr Robinson says, "There was a fridge, there wasa desk, there was a computer, there was a stainless steelcabinet. He had blood collection tubes in there. He hadurine collection tubes in there. He had a centrifuge inthere. Okay, how often did you go in his office, Dean?"Robinson, "Once a day. Yes, I would say roughly once aday. What would he do in the office in relation to dailywork? Would he administer supplements in the office?Yes, he would, and blood tests as well."

That's the first part. He visited him daily andthat's where they administered the supplements.

CHAIRMAN: Obviously what was going on in Dank's office isimportant as far as your case is concerned.

MR HOLMES: Yes, and what opportunity did Mr Robinson have to

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observe what was going on there. He was going thereroughly once a day.

Over the page is page 90. I invite you to readthat page 90. There is no mention of Thymosin orThymomodulin or Thymosin Beta-4 or Thymosin Alpha, butthere is discussion about substances. Then Ms Kerrisonasks at the foot of the page, "If you are writing thatdown, this is beta-methylbutyrate. I will have to leavethat to the transcriber. And what else was in his office?Thymosin, I think, was one that was in his office." SoMr Robinson appears to volunteer that. "Yes, proteinpowders. What else was in there? That's all I canremember off the top of my head. That was pretty good.Where were most of the supplements kept? Depending onwhat it was, it was either kept in the stainless steelcabinet or in the fridge. Yeah, all right. Do you knowwhich ones were in the fridge and which ones were in thecabinet? I believe Thymosin AOD and COQ 10 were in thefridge. Yeah. And the others were in - sorry, Lactawaywas also a supplement that was there. It was in thefridge and the others were in silver in the cabinet."

So the Thymosin is something that Mr Robinsonremembers. If we go then to page 150, at about line 14,"When Steve was working at the club and doing his normalduties did he use his own equipment or did you have to buyhim equipment as well as in centrifuge, syringes,machines? The centrifuge, syringes came fromthe pathology place that was doing the testing. Yes. Andwe bought him a fridge, we bought him a metal cabinet,stainless steel. And so when he started at the club, didhe introduce a new supplements provider to the club? Yes.

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And who did he introduce? Como Compounding Pharmacy." SoComo Compounding Pharmacy was introduced to the club byMr Robinson.

CHAIRMAN: That's Alavi.MR HOLMES: That's Alavi, yes. Then can I go forward to page

199. There's some cross-examination about conversationsbetween Mr Dank and Mr Reid and Mr Robinson. On the topof page 199 at line 6, it refers to, "As long as Dr Reidticked it off. But when you say ticked off on it, wasthere physically any paperwork? No, as long as he said,'I'm fine with that.' And to the best of your knowledgewhere would he record 'I'm fine with that'? In a meeting,in an email. Could be on the football field when we'retalking. Right. So, as I said, the paperwork," and thereis reference about going for about 50 minutes.

"So is there a line of questioning that you wantto wrap this up on this topic, is that fair to say? I'vegot one more question in relation to what supplements toyour knowledge were being used and/or trialled on theplayers during the 2012, including the 2011 preceding, ifyou could just list them for us." So again it's notleading. But the next question is, "Did we mentionThymomodulin or Thymosin? Does Thymomodulin ring a bellwith you? No. Thymosin. Yes." Robinson, "I thinkthat's what I said. That's where I think Nima got theThymosin from. Yes. We got it from Como. AndCerebrolysin? Yes, we spoke about it yesterday."

So Thymomodulin is not something that Mr Robinsonrecalls being used; it's Thymosin. So that's all I wishto draw your attention to there. Then I would like to goback to the SMS messages.

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CHAIRMAN: I think that's AS-4.MR HOLMES: AS-4. The SMS messages in relation to Mr Deeble

continue. Do you remember Mr Deeble, the baseballofficial? On 14 March - - -

CHAIRMAN: Can you just give us the page and the number,Mr Holmes?

MR HOLMES: 342.CHAIRMAN: Page 342. Which number?MR HOLMES: 26. I had taken you to the ones above that.CHAIRMAN: Yes, it starts on the bottom of 342, right at the

bottom, number 26. Jon Deeble to Stephen Dank.MR HOLMES: I won't read that out. You can see that Jon Deeble

gives him his MasterCard, his details, its expiry date andthat security code. So Deeble sends that to Dank, butdirectly after receiving the details from Deeble, Dankappears to have forwarded the payment details to hisassociate, Adam van Spanje, which you find at page 202.So if you go from there - - -

MR GRACE: Can I just enquire of Mr Holmes is this relevant tothe players or just to Mr Dank?

MR HOLMES: Well, we know which office he's operating from.He's prepared to sell banned substances out of thatoffice, and to that extent it shows a propensity for - - -

CHAIRMAN: It clearly relates to him, but what you are sayingis that in view of the pivotal involvement he had with theEssendon players it's got some relevance to the caseagainst them as well.

MR HOLMES: You might find in other circumstances where there'sjust a single sale or a single injection, people are notlikely to administer banned substances. But when you getthe picture of Mr Dank, the likelihood of him

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Then item 5, "Are you coming around? I don't want to sitwaiting around anymore if not." Dank responds, "Allsorted out. Will ring you in 10 minutes."

He then has a text message with Mr Alavi. Justpardon me. If I take you to page 18 of the SMSs and godown to item 85. Mr Dank, "Hi, mate. John Donohue needsScitropin. Robin Wilcox has agreed to be the scriptingdoctor. Are you close to the pharmacy? John's not faraway."

Then if we go back to page 136, item 7, Dank thentexts Donohue, "Did you get everything all right?" ThenDonohue texts Dank, "Ouch, $600." Donohue texts Dank,"Just left." Then Dank texts Mr Van Spanje on 16 March ifyou go to page 178 - sorry, Spano, not van Spanje. Thisis at page 178 to Spano. He's the Skinovate.

CHAIRMAN: Paul Spano.MR HOLMES: "Let's talk tomorrow."MR GRACE: What entry?MR HOLMES: It is item 14, "Let's talk tomorrow. You are now

Australia's foremost expert on thymus therapy." If youlook at the text messages, it appears that at this stageMr Dank has attended upon Mimotopes on 15 March, becauseif you go to page 362 we have Shelly Rasmussen, who's thesales manager for Mimotopes, on 15 March, this is item 1,Dank to Rasmussen, "Hi, Shelly, it's Steve Dank. I metyou yesterday at Mimotopes. It was good meeting with you.I have sent you this text so you can lock my phone numberin. I will touch base with you after 10.30 if you'reavailable to discuss a couple of areas of peptide scienceof interest."

The date and time is Friday the 16th, so we put

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the meeting on the 15th. Then the next textmessage - perhaps I should finish that batch. Number 2,"That sounds fantastic. I have now saved your number inmy phone." There's a further text message - - -

CHAIRMAN: Mimotopes, are they a supplier?MR HOLMES: No, they are testing. I'm told they do both. We

do not suggest any acquisition of products from them. Allwe are talking about is testing.

CHAIRMAN: Because your case is that the supplier of productswas Alavi.

MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: In relation to Essendon.MR HOLMES: Essendon.CHAIRMAN: And these other people like et cetera.MR HOLMES: Sorry, the purchase of material to Essendon came

from Como. It didn't come from Mimotopes.CHAIRMAN: No, and similarly withMR HOLMES: Well, was a customer of Dank's.CHAIRMAN: But the product to him came through Como.MR HOLMES: We don't really know, because his product was

CJC-1295 and Hexarelin.CHAIRMAN: The person that Dank was SMSing in relation to

I'm just trying to think of - - -MR HOLMES: Mr Van Spanje.CHAIRMAN: Yes. How does he - - -MR HOLMES: He's his partner in MRC in Sydney.CHAIRMAN: Right. That's Dank's partner.MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: Okay. So in terms of where any product ultimately

came from, it's not clear. But there's this sequence ofevents of the contact with someone like and then

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providing details to his partner in Sydney of the productthat is going to get and details so that canbe charged and an address to which delivery can be made;is that it?

MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: That's the course of conduct that you are referring

to in relation to Dank?MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: And other people apart from people at Essendon?MR HOLMES: Well, is not at Essendon.CHAIRMAN: That's what I mean.MR HOLMES: Donohue is not at Essendon.CHAIRMAN: You are referring to these people - it's a course of

conduct that applies to them.MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: They are not Essendon people, but it's taking place

at a time when Dank was the sports scientist at Essendonand doing things with Essendon players.

MR HOLMES: Yes.MR GRACE: Sir, I don't know if it has been made clear enough,

but contemporaneously with his position at Essendon forwhich he was earning, I think Mr Holmes said, $100,000 ayear, he was also running two businesses at least, andtrying to set up another one I think with Mr Alavi.

CHAIRMAN: No, I understand that. Clearly that's reflected inthe fact that he's going to his partner in Sydney inrelation to - - -

MR HOLMES: To these orders from MrCHAIRMAN: Yes, so he wasn't confining himself to Essendon.MR GRACE: No. We concede and accept that, that he was running

multiple occupations.

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CHAIRMAN: He was dealing with other people.MR GRACE: Yes.MR HOLMES: If we continue with these SMSs, back with

Mr Donohue at page 136, on 19 March, item 10, "Have youstarted your Scitropin? Yes, mate. Three today", item11. Item 12, "Good. I have your other peptides packaged.Great. When do you want me to grab those? You cantomorrow. I will ring you in the morning." Donohue,"Okay, I'm in at the Storm most of the day. I canprobably grab around two to three. Would need somethingto keep cool until around 8, if possible." Dank, "It willbe wrapped in foam and ice." Donohue, "Okay. I willtouch base in the morning to see what time is good.Thanks again."

CHAIRMAN: I presume Donohue's reference to "the Storm" is theMelbourne Storm.

MR HOLMES: Yes. On 20 March Mr asked for assistancewith the substances. If you look at page 343, item 32,

is texting Dank and saying, "Mate, what are theinstructions with the Hexarelin and also the CJC-1295?"They are the ones that he purchased a few days beforethat.

Then at line 33 he says, "Your course Hexarelin,15 mls Monday, Tuesday, Thursday and Friday" - sorry, 0.15ml - "combined Hexarelin and CJC course. 4 ml CJC-1295Monday, Wednesday and Friday. So the other two guysMonday, Tuesday, Thursday, Friday, Hexarelin. Monday,Wednesday, Friday, CJC. John." So he's asking for theadministration protocol that he should follow.

Then if we go on to item 35, "Your courseHexarelin." He repeats that. Then he repeats, "Combined

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Hexarelin and CJC course, take in the morning on an emptystomach." And the Hexarelin, he names the days, "Take inthe morning on an empty stomach." Over the pagetexts Dank, "Thanks." I interpolate for theseinstructions, "Get the invoice for me. Thanks, Jon."

On 22 March can I go back to exhibit AS-3, thefirst volume of the court book, at page 290. It's anemail from Mr Alavi to Shane Charter. "Hi Shane. Hopeall is well, buddy. Any news on the isolated supplier andthe damage associated? I've put a stop to any sterilework as the isolator does not meet the standards. I mayupgrade my rooms to make them cleaner. However, I'm yetto receive payment from MRC. I reminded them a couple oftimes. Still no payment. They're currently reviewing theinvoice and will make payment once they have accepted.Basically I have not received any payment from Steve Dank,Essendon, MRC or ICB ever. I'm seriously consideringdropping these contracts, mate. It's chewing up way toomuch time and money. I currently receive three to fivecalls from Dank per day. Ed from MRC" - that's Ed vanSpanje - "calls me approximately one to two times per day.I have hired a pharmacist for the past two months toprepare injectables for MRC. Additionally I have spentalmost 50K on equipment and renovations to prepare thesterile lab for peptides. On top of all that it's still agrey area. I may send the work to another group, IMG.I have found a small share in this company, however theyare non-pharmacy so it's much safer. They also have afully functional sterile laboratory. Regarding rawingredients, if MRC requires any I will source them fromCedric's." We understand that as a reference to Cedric

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Anthony, who was introduced to him by Mr Charter. "Ifthis becomes the case you will have to apply a mark-up onthe raw ingredients with Cedric to benefit from thereferral. This will cut Como Compounding off from anyinvolvement in the peptides. I will keep you posted onwhich path to take. By the way, the remainder of the GHpacks are ready to go. Shall I send them to Sunshine?Regards, Nima."

Can I then take you back to the text messages.At page 362 there is a text message - - -

CHAIRMAN: We looked at 1 and 2.MR HOLMES: There's further contact on 16 March, number 3 and

number 4 and 5. Then we go to number 6 on 23 March.Rasmussen to Dank, "Working from home today to try andkick this bug. I've just got an email from Gordon. He'sbeen figuring out the best way to overcome the peptidedissolved in the glycine this week. I think he has nowthat under control. He was wondering through you if youcould please email through the sequence of thenon-dissolved peptide SARM 5G if it is indeed a peptide sohe can check his results. He will be commencing thetriple As on Monday. Thanks." That's the amino acidanalysis and the Monday is 26 March 2012.

Mimotopes were asked some questions about this.If I go to the transcripts which is in volume AS-5, volume2, that's the court book part B transcripts, volume 2 of3, and the tab is tab 21. The interviewer was Mr Nolan.The interviewees were Gordon Tribbick, Sally Roche, SonyaPlompen. The location was at Mimotopes.

On page 2 they are introducing themselves. Line20, "I'm the office manager. The managing director. What

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I want to know was what was the industry Mimotopes is allabout. We synthesise research grade peptides for the R&Dcommunity, synthesise and sell, and we only sell toresearchers, custom made peptides, and universities."

Then there's a relationship with Steve Dank. Onpage 3, "He rang up and introduced himself to us becausehe had some samples that he wanted to analyse. And do yourecall what that was? Please feel free to refer to anydocuments that we have if you wanted to have a look atthose. Not without my glasses. It would have been eitherMarch or April. It's got this email on 23 April talkingabout the result of samples." Then they are discussingthe original meeting with Shelly.

Over the page, 4, line 9, "What's Shelly'ssurname? Rasmussen. What's her role? Sales manager.Did you understand or were it explained to you whatbusiness Steve Dank was in? Not really. During theinitial communication you had with him, the meeting thatoccurred subsequently, did he explain to you what hewanted? He turned around and he did turn around and statethat he was actually a user of peptides and he was lookingat doing some projects involving peptides. We made itvery clear that we don't sell on a commercial basis, onlyfor R&D use with him. He was very well aware of that, buthe just said that he was actually doing some trials withsome peptides himself. He didn't go into details ofthose, of what the projects were, nor specifically whichpeptides he was looking at. He gave sort of some generalbroad use."

Then can I go back to the text messages for25 March. These are at page 137. At page 137 we have a

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text between Mr Donohue and Mr Dank. It's item 29, thefourth one. Item 29, "Did the extra dosage of CJC andHexarelin help?" Item 30, "Still pretty flat. Maybe I'mjust old." 31, "There should have been some pickup" -this is Dank talking - "particularly with an accumulateddose of both. Let's see tomorrow and another dose ofScitropin. I'm surprised that nothing improved, but neverunderestimate the power of the central nervous system tosimply reset the neural drive. With a down week in theAFL and a one-sided game against one of the most boringclubs in the NRL, your CNS" - and I think that's areference back to the central nervous system - "may havesimply deregulated your sensory response and thalamusimpulse so you have physiologically preserved for a busyweek this week, a little like an athlete simply doing whatit has to win a small time event against a small timeopponent. So the neurological lift from the peptides maybe delayed for 48 hours. This is on the back of a busyand long day Thursday adding a load of radioactive dyeswhich can blunt your sympathetic response. So it's notunreasonable to see some trough, but I would have thoughtyou would see some improvement. Let's see how you aretomorrow."

CHAIRMAN: I wonder what the professor would say about that.MR HOLMES: I don't think he'd endorse it. If we go to the

first volume of the court book, at page 291 - - -CHAIRMAN: AS-5.1?MR HOLMES: Sorry, AS-3, court book 1.CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR HOLMES: Page 291.CHAIRMAN: That's the email that you just took us to,

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Mr Holmes.MR HOLMES: No, this is a new one. 291?CHAIRMAN: Yes, Dank to Rasmussen.MR HOLMES: Yes. This is the sequence for CJC-1295, the

molecular formula, the molecular weight, the sequence, andit's on the letterhead or the email head of Steve Dank,performance scientist at Essendon Football Club.

If I could then go back to the SMSs. On thatsame day at page 18 of the SMSs, it's item 86. This is26 March, Alavi to Dank. "Hi, Steve. Hope all is well,buddy. Can you give me an estimated idea of when Essendonwill be paying their account? It's now three monthsoverdue. The sooner they make payment, the sooner we cancontinue their supplements and begin the infusions." Sothey are still arguing about the account and they are nowtalking about infusions.

Also on that day, if you go to page 137, we haveDank and Donohue. I've read the items on the top of thepage. Then we go to the 26th, Dank to Donohue, item 33,"Good tip which is simple. Keep gargling apple cidervinegar. It's very effective with sore throats and itdoes work so start that immediately tonight." He replies,"Okay. The wife should have some."

Then on the 28th the messages continue. Item 35,"Are you feeling better?" Donohue, "Definitely better."37, "Did you get on the apple cider vinegar?" Donohue toDank, "No, she didn't have any. Did salt water. It'sbetter today also." Then Dank responds, "Salt water verygood for bactericidal properties. I have a peptideformula which annihilates viruses in 24 hours. I will putyou on it next time. Okay."

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Hexarelin in his fridge. That appears from the court bookAS-5, volume 1. At tab 7 of AS-5, volume 1. If you lookat page 47 - - -

CHAIRMAN: Just in relation to that transcript, Mr Holmes, thatdate can't be right. I assume it's 21 February 2013.

MR HOLMES: Yes, if you look at tab 7 - - -CHAIRMAN: When the interview took place.MR HOLMES: Yes, that's the first date.CHAIRMAN: Yes. It says the interview was on 21 February 2012.MR HOLMES: We agree with that.CHAIRMAN: So which page now?MR HOLMES: 47. They are talking about going down to Mr Dank.

At line 17, "You mentioned that you raised the issue ofthat substance" - and that's a reference back to Hexarelinwhich she had been - - -

MR GRACE: What page are you on now?MR HOLMES: 47. It's line 17. "Now, you mentioned that you

raised the issue of that substance being present at theclub during a medical meeting?" Answer, "Yes." "When didit occur and who was present? Again, timeline-wise itprobably would have been June. Again I don't know thesetimelines. It would have been obviously after I'd takenit and what I realised it was. It was some time duringApril and June. I would imagine it would have been amedical meeting, and again whether it was a medicalmeeting that was earlier in the week or a medical meetingthat was later in the week with regard to whether therewas a doctor there, I can't recall. So who do youremember being present? My crew, my sports science crew.So who's that? Justin Crowe, Paul Turk, Jesse Campisi,Jarrod Wade, Dean Robinson, Danny Corcoran, Paul Turk.

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Well, you know, he agreed with me. Not the seniorcoaching staff." So she's raised that at a meeting.

Then could I go back to AS-3 and Mimotopes. At295, Mimotopes, the peptide company, has been doing someanalysis for Mr Dank and we have the triple A amino acidanalysis results. It is GHRP6, the sequence, themolecular weight. All these things, if I might justinterpolate, they all have more significance after hearingfrom the professor. So, they conducted an analysis forMr Dank. That is dated 9 April.

Over the page there's a further analysis, theMechano Growth Factor. We go then next back to the textmessages.

CHAIRMAN: We might take a short break, Mr Holmes, if that'sconvenient.(Short adjournment.)

CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry, everyone, and particularly Mr Holmes.This leg is giving me a bit of grief, unfortunately, andI have to go and see a doctor during the break. I'm justa bit concerned that it seems to be infected and at my ageyou have to be careful about infections. I have takensome antibiotics.

MR HOLMES: Would you rather go now?CHAIRMAN: We have an appointment at quarter to 1, so we will

go through to 12.30. It's only a minute away from here.MR GRACE: Sir, could I just say something. Yesterday we were

quite shocked to hear the news about your late brother,Peter. For those of us who knew him at the Bar table, wereally admired him and enjoyed his company and I appearedwith him as co-counsel and against him. He was always aterrific fellow and well respected and admired across the

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profession. So we express our deepest condolences andsympathy to the family.

CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thanks, Mr Grace. I must say I was very takenby the tribute the Bar put in the paper this morning andalso Michael Green. Peter was at the Bar for nearly40 years, almost exclusively in the criminal jurisdiction,a bit of a larger than life person.

MR GRACE: Yes, he was.CHAIRMAN: But a very good advocate. He did quite a bit of

work in Sydney, Mr Holmes. He appeared in a famous trial,a fraud trial up there which went for a year before TonyWhealy involving some people cheating the tax department.But he was diagnosed with lung cancer nearly seven yearsago and somehow or other, I don't know how, to be honest,he kept going. He only stopped working in September, butit was then a downhill course from there. So, yes, hecertainly will be missed. He and his Seabrook colleaguesused to entertain well down there with a Grand Finallunch.

MR GRACE: They did, and often.CHAIRMAN: And often. There are less and less of those sort of

characters at the Bar now, but that's the way it goes. Sothank you for that, I really appreciate it.

Mr Holmes, we were at AS-3, 295 when we broke.MR HOLMES: Yes, and 296. I have dealt with those two. Now

I want to just deal with some text messages in the lead-upto the Anzac Day game. This lead-up starts at page 130 inthe text messages. At page 130, it's item 75, and this isthe communication between the sports scientist and JamesHird. "We need to rethink the Carlton-Collingwoodstrategy." That's 75, 76, 77 and then that general

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discussion continues right through page 131. I invite youto read, just glance through those ones. I won't readthem out aloud because obviously in these days between8 April and 10 April they are preparing and they arereally by way of background to the SMS on page 132 at line110, so just general talk between the scientist and thecoach.

But when on page 132 you get to item 110, this isDank to Hird, "Convince me tomorrow that from after weland Sunday that we will have free run through to thenight of the Anzac Day match, I mean a free run from themedia and the club and I'm especially worried about thehanger trying to get too close."

Then on 12 April Dank advises the coach, "All IVand injections completed." Now, we don't have any recordsof these injections, as we all know. Hird replies,"Thanks, mate." Dank to Hird, "Be careful of the woundedbeast." Then there's a discussion about other coaches.Again, item 115, Dank to Hird, "This afternoon's groupwent very well on hyperbaric. All injections completedfor the week." So there's 19 April and you go back to 111and there's some text message evidence of weeklyinjections being administered by Mr Dank.

Now, at about this time Mr Dank is also talkingto a Mr Spano of Skinovate. If you go to page 180 ofthe text messages, on 13 April, which is item 59 at 180,Mr Spano asks Mr Dank, "GPR6, is that the best SARM?"Dank to Spano, "No, S22 is the best SARM. CJC-1295 is thebest growth factor releasing peptide. I got you yesterdaya Hexarelin CJC-1295 and a Melanotan. You're the man."

Can we go then to page 19 because Essendon's

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Then Mr Donohue and Mr Dank exchange textmessages on 24 April, which is at page 138. Item 46,Donohue is asking Dank again, "What are those dosesagain?" Dank to Donohue, "Melanotan 0.1 ml for sevendays, then 0.15 ml every third day for 14 days, then 1 mltwice a week. CJC with MGF," the Mechano Growth Factor,"0.2 mls Monday, Tuesday, Friday. Your SARMs is done.I've also made you up a SARMs cream. We think this ismore potent than the injection. Thanks, mate."

Now, the next one is 25 April. Essendon playsCollingwood in the Anzac Day game and loses by a point.Mr Alavi responds by texting Mr Dank, page 19.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, I saw this one before.MR HOLMES: Entry 105, "Damn close game. The infusion should

help the extra point. Speak soon, buddy." Now, on26 April - - -

MR GRACE: Can I just clarify one thing, members of the panel.When there's talk about infusions, they ought notnecessarily be equated with injections because there wereIV drips going on at various places.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR HOLMES: You are happy that the word "jab" is referring to

an injection?MR GRACE: Yes, I am.CHAIRMAN: It's a question of how the substance was getting

into the bloodstream.MR GRACE: There is no suggestion that Thymosin was being

entered into the blood stream by infusions.CHAIRMAN: By an intravenous drip.MR GRACE: No, there is no suggestion of that.MR HOLMES: Can I take you then to page 260, item 370. The

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only reason I take you there is Mr Moufarriage is talkingto Mr Dank and he is saying, "We fly out Melbourne middayon 26 April."

CHAIRMAN: Which number, sorry?MR HOLMES: 370, the first one. So the two of them are flying

out of Melbourne on the 26th. If you go over the page to262 at 414, Dank and Moufarriage, they have arrived backsafely on 1 May. The reason I take you there is becauseour witness tomorrow, Dr Fricker - - -

CHAIRMAN: Who is Moufarriage?MR HOLMES: He is a businessman from Sydney who is involved in

GPS equipment that was used by Dank in his sportsscientist role.

CHAIRMAN: He's on the list. "Owner of NRL Sportsdata.Associate of Stephen Dank."

MR HOLMES: Yes. If we go to page 94, that's the statementsection at the beginning of the text message volume. CanI just quickly go through there. He's a medicalpractitioner and sports physician. He's trained ininternal medicine, rheumatology and sports medicine. Hisattachment is his CV. I will have to add that.

He's currently engaged in Swimming Australia astheir chief medical officer. He's an adjunct. He hasbeen a member of the Anti-Doping Rule Violation Panel, buthe's not been involved in any discussion about therelevant players or Mr Dank. He was with the AIS inCanberra and worked his way up through there. He leftthem in 2011.

Over on page 95 at paragraph 10 he moved to Dohato take up a position as the chief adviser to thepresident of the Aspire Zone Foundation in sports

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medicine. The Aspire Zone offers sports medicine,research, education, injury diagnosis, treatment for theinternational sports industry, and the three differentbusiness areas: high school, hospitals, events andfacilities. He worked there until September 2013.

He was interviewed. His interview transcriptI will give you the reference in a moment. But he thenhad an introduction to Mr Dank. His dates aren't veryclear, but we know from the text message that Mr Dank andMr Moufarriage were there between 26 April and 1 May.

"Some time in 2012 I received a phone call fromKirk Marks, an Australian who was working in Doha and thedirector. He was managing indoor leisure centres andswimming pools and had a business in Dubai and Doha.I was aware from my dealings with him that Mr Marks was inbusiness with Sheik Mohammed Al-Thani, who is part of theroyal family in Qatar. During the telephone conversationMr Marks said words to the effect, 'Look, I've been toldthere's a guy called Steve Dank coming from Melbourne whoneeds to come and talk to somebody about his product andstuff he's working with and wants to talk to somebody overhere who might be able to help him.' I understood fromthe conversation that Mr Marks did not know Mr Dankpersonally. I agreed I would meet with Mr Dank and madean appointment."

"On a date I can't recall in about April Mr Dankarrived earlier than our agreed appointment timeunannounced and with a person I now know to be AndrewMoufarriage. I recall Mr Moufarriage being of averagestocky build, dark wavy hair. It went for about40 minutes. I don't think Mr Moufarriage said much."

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"I cannot recall if he introduced himself as asports scientist. He was trained in biochemistry.I can't recall what qualifications. He spoke to me aboutactivities around football clubs, the products he wasusing with players in rugby league and AFL teams. Theseproducts included peptides. I have a specific memory ofMr Dank telling me that he had been engaged by theEssendon Football Club to help players with injurymanagement, recovery and prevention."

"At the time he visited me I had no knowledge ofpeptides he referred to. The product names I recallMr Dank mentioning include AOD-9604, Hexarelin and GHRP6.There may have been others, but I can't recall exactly.I said to Mr Dank words to the effect, 'Well, I'm notaware of these peptides. I don't know much about them.Explain them.' Mr Dank responded with words to theeffect, 'Well, I've got access to these peptides. They'renot banned. I have been arranging with different clubs inthe NRL and AFL to administer these peptides undersupervision to help them with their injury prevention andperformance enhancement.' I can't recall whether Mr Danksaid how he sourced the peptides."

"I also recall Mr Dank saying words to theeffect, 'We've been injecting the players with thesepeptides.' 'What do you mean injecting the players?I mean, Steve, you're not a doctor so where is thepermission for you to go and start injecting?' 'Oh, no,it's all right, mate. No, I've got them covered off bythe club and the medical staff all know.' I believe thatDank specifically referred to Essendon when he spoke ofadministering injections."

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"I have never been involved in a program wheresupplements, including peptides, were injected intoathletes. The only occasion on which I was involved in aprogram where athletes were injected was as aco-investigator in a research study where EPO was injectedinto athletes to validate a test for detecting EPO beforethe Sydney Olympics. That program was a strictlycontrolled research study which did not involve eliteathletes."

"The sort of program Mr Dank had spoken about inrelation to football clubs and injections should only everbe performed by physicians, medically trained staff in acontrolled environment. I was concerned because theprogram he described in our first meeting did not appearto conform with that practice."

"Throughout the first meeting I asked Mr Dank acouple of times about the effect of the WADA Code andsupplements. I said words to the effect, 'Are you surethat these things aren't banned,' to which he responded,'No, no, no.' I asked him about human use, and he repliedwith the words to the effect, 'They have been approved forhuman use through regulations in the US, not necessarilythrough the FDA or TGA in the Australian context.'I understood that was a reference to the Food and DrugAdministration and the Therapeutic Goods Administration."

"I said to Mr Dank, 'Well, I'm not sure how theUS approval would apply in Australia.' He replied, 'Itreally means that these have been approved for, if youlike, use in human trials.' He didn't tell me who he hadchecked with. He did not provide me with printedliterature. He assured me he would do so, but I never

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received any literature from Mr Dank.""He spoke to me extensively during the first

meeting about his desire to conduct public health trialsof peptides directed at the management of obesity anddiabetes. I suggested he speak with a public healthphysician that I knew, Dr Al Kuwari. While Mr Dank hadbroached the topic of doing clinical trials at the AspireZone I told Mr Dank I doubted he would ever get a peptidetrial going within the Aspire Zone."

"During one of my meetings with Mr DankI suggested to Mr Dank that he contact Dr Al Sayrafi, whois the head of the Anti-Doping Lab in Qatar. The QatarAnti-Doping Lab had just opened. They were veryinterested in doing analytics."

"There was a second meeting in November. Hearrived unannounced and I said, 'I can't talk to you now.Can you come back?' Later that afternoon he arrived withMr Kenley." There is reference to what was said there inthe second meeting. "He gave me a Powerpointpresentation." Over the page, "It summarised what thedifferent peptides could do. There was no reference toany scientific articles. I recall I retained a copy ofthe presentation. I have attempted to locate it withoutsuccess. I have had no further communications."

Is that a convenient time?CHAIRMAN: Probably. If it suits you, it would be, Mr Holmes.

It gives me plenty of time to see this doctor and,assuming I'm not flat on my back, we will resume at 1.30.Our very efficient assistant will let you know what'shappening.

LUNCHEON ADJOURNMENT

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UPON RESUMING AT 2.00 PM:CHAIRMAN: Thank you for your patience and thank you for

penicillin. Hopefully it does the trick. Mr Holmes,where are we to next?

MR HOLMES: AS-4, that's the second volume, at page 59. Holdthat open and also AS-3.

CHAIRMAN: Is this of the text messages?MR HOLMES: Yes, but the first section, the statements.CHAIRMAN: Yes. Sergio Del Vecchio.MR HOLMES: Yes, and I would like to call Mr Del Vecchio to

give evidence.CHAIRMAN: We discussed the point that Mr Gleeson raised and we

have decided in the circumstances, as we have proceeded sofar on the basis that witnesses aren't sworn, we won'tswear the witness. You can be seated, Mr Del Vecchio, ifyou wish.

<SERGIO DEL VECCHIO, called:MR HOLMES: Is your full name Sergio Del Vecchio?A. Yes, it is.Q. I show you a copy of a statement. Is that a copy of a

statement made by you on 14 November?A. Yes, it is.Q. In the last paragraph you said, "I hereby acknowledge that

this statement is true and correct"?A. Yes.Q. Are the contents true and correct?A. Yes, they are.Q. It refers to an annexure, an email. Can I show you page 289

of exhibit AS-3, an email. I will just show you thisdocument.

CHAIRMAN: So that's page?

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MR HOLMES: 289. Is that a copy of your email that is referredto in your statement?

A. Yes, it is.Q. Mr Del Vecchio, you heard the Chairman of the Tribunal say

that you are not required to make an oath. But in thequestions that I'm asking you and in all questions thatare put to you today, do you undertake to tell the truth,the whole truth and nothing but the truth?

A. It's all true, yes. Absolutely.Q. I understand that you don't want to answer any questions?A. That's correct.Q. Perhaps if you tell the Tribunal why you have that view?A. Well, I don't want to subject myself to any possible

Defamation Act by anyone, any individuals. I have nointerest in this case other than to tell the truth, andI have, to ASADA. That's really the key.

Q. Mr Del Vecchio, you have been told that the transcript isconfidential?

A. Yes, yes. I have been told that my conversation with ASADAis protected as well.

CHAIRMAN: And the proceedings, you understand, Mr Del Vecchio,are being held in what we call in camera; that is, that inprivate the only persons who are permitted to be presentare the legal representatives and those involved with themand each of the legal representatives have given to theTribunal undertakings that evidence that the Tribunalreceives will be kept confidential?

A. I have been told that. But I don't think it mitigates thepossibilities that certain individuals might take action.I think it's been pretty much publicly declared that theymight take that sort of action. I'm not in a position to

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either fund any possible action or even time-wise, so it'snot my fight. I'm not really interested in the EssendonFootball Club or, you know, these proceedings other thantelling the truth originally to ASADA.

CHAIRMAN: In your statement?A. In my statement, yes.Q. It's not a question, as I understand it, that Mr Holmes

would want to be asking you further questions additionalto the statement that you have provided. It's that youunderstand that the infraction notices against players,various players from the club or who were at the club atthe time, and decisions affect the players in terms oftheir future if they were found to have violated the Codeand subject to a sanction, and understandably theirrepresentatives would like the opportunity to askquestions of you to no doubt clarify matters that are inyour statement and perhaps get further information aboutyour statement. So that's the primary reason why you arebeing asked to attend to give evidence, to give them anopportunity to ask you questions about this particularmatter. Do you understand that?

A. Yes, I understand the seriousness of it for the players.But by the same token, you know, I have no interest inthis case other than when I was originally asked by ASADAto provide some evidence. I'm not prepared to put myselfin a position where I jeopardise myself just to helpothers that I have no interest in.

Q. All right. Thanks, Mr Del Vecchio. You may leave. Thankyou.

<(THE WITNESS WITHDREW)MR GRACE: We object to this evidence being received.

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CHAIRMAN: That will be part of the evidence that you areobjecting to where the person has not been available to becross-examined, Mr Grace. We understand that. He fitsinto that category. Would you like to continue,Mr Holmes, with the other matters?

MR HOLMES: All right. I was at the period of the end ofApril, beginning of May.

CHAIRMAN: I think when we stopped it was Dr Fricker fromQatar.

MR HOLMES: Yes.MR GRACE: Sorry, Mr Holmes, could I just mention something.

We have been requested by ASADA to put on a note of thelist of proposed evidence they seek to rely upon that weobject to in terms of admissibility. We are prepared todo that. It's just the timing of it. The request wasmade for 5 o'clock today. We can't comply with that.

MR HOLMES: It was made last week.MR GRACE: Yes, it was made last week. It's not the timing so

much; we would like the opening to be concluded so that weknow exactly what is being relied upon, which will thengive us the practical content of the case that we have toface and then we will be in a position to give a completelist to ASADA.

CHAIRMAN: Yes. I don't have any trouble with that. It's justthat also Mr Holmes needs to be given the opportunity, inthe light of the objection taken, if he so wishes, toadduce any further evidence to meet the objection becauseif the objection was taken in running, then obviously hewould have that opportunity. I don't know whether that'sgoing to arise. The major objection clearly relates tothe statements of persons who are not available to be

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cross-examined. There may be other matters that you wishto notify which, in the light of the objection taken,could be dealt with by further evidence. I don't know,but I think it's that reservation that needs to be therein the sense that we are not going to close Mr Holmes outon the basis, "You know, you have finished your case. Youcan't call any further evidence in the light of whatobjection has been taken."

MR GRACE: Could I just give you a practical example. Thismorning, and you will recall that there was received overobjection, there was an extract of the statement orinterview, I can't recall now, of Mr Robinson. We don'tknow whether that's the extent of the Robinson materialthat is going to be relied upon or whether all theRobinson material is going to be relied upon. If that wasjust the extent, it may then warrant a different reactionfrom us. But if it is going to be the whole interview orall the interviews with Robinson and statement ofRobinson, then that would provoke a different response.

CHAIRMAN: Okay.MR GRACE: That's an example.MR HOLMES: We have been acting as a model litigant and if we

have evidence from a witness that we rely on, we refer tothose passages but provide the entire transcript, so therecan't be any issue that we have taken it out of context orthere is other material which qualifies it.

CHAIRMAN: Or that you have been selective.MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: I understand that. I understand that your approach

has been to say, "We've got all this material that couldbear upon the issues the Tribunal has to decide. We are

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going to take the Tribunal to particular parts of theevidence which we think are important to our case, butit's all before the Tribunal."

I think it's a situation where Mr Grace canindicate at least the sort of basis of his objection andit may be that in the light of that there can be agreementbetween the parties, "Well, we are content that theTribunal need only rely upon or use certain parts of whatthey have received."

We have to think about the task in front of us inhaving to write a decision in this case where we have asubstantial volume of material and our focus clearly isgoing to be on the matters raised by the parties and theissues that are raised, rather than having to go and readevery word of every document that we have received.

So I think from our point of view we would seekthe assistance of the parties if the ambit of the evidencecan be narrow, because as I said at the start we come backto these two fundamental issues and the circumstances, thefacts that ASADA says they rely upon to draw theinference. Really, I don't see why we would bewanting - I mean, we may need to look at other material inrelation to those facts and circumstances, but I don't seewhy we would be wanting then to trawl through all of thismaterial to see whether we can find some othercircumstance that might apply.

MR GRACE: No, but just to give you an example, just takeRobinson. There were certain very selected extracts ofRobinson that were read out. As far as it goes, we haveno problem with any of that for the purposes that it wasused as going in. However, if there's an intention in the

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closing submissions to rely on other aspects of theevidence or the answers given by Robinson to variousquestions by investigators, then we would object to all ofthe evidence in the absence of an opportunity tocross-examine him.

So this is the type of practical problems that weface. We would like to be aware of how ASADA is intendingto rely on aspects of evidence such as that and that wouldthen allow us to properly provide notification to ASADAand to the panel as to what we do object to.

CHAIRMAN: I understand that. I would assume that whenMr Holmes comes to put his final submissions that thosesubmissions will be based on the matters that he's drawnto our attention in presenting the case, plus anythingthat arises out of any evidence that the players mightseek to put before the Tribunal, rather than a situationof going to a whole lot of other parts of thisdocumentation.

I understand your situation in terms of beingable to fairly put the defence in a situation where thereare so many documents to know, "Well, what really are theyrelying on? We shouldn't have to go through all this andsee are they relying upon this or are they relying uponthat, when it hasn't been referred to," which I think isyour point.

MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: Which I think is a valid point which I ask Mr Holmes

to take on board. Perhaps we are best to look at thisagain when he's finished drawing to the attention of theTribunal the particular pieces that he relies upon as partof his case. We can then look at where you stand in terms

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of objections and whether we can keep the objectionswithin a fairly narrow compass on the basis that we don'thave to cover every page that we have received.

An alternative could have been for Mr Holmes togo through all this material and then just extract variousdocuments and passages, et cetera, from the material andput it before us as part of his case. But I understandhis point that, if they just did that, they could becriticised for in effect being selective and not providingthe opportunity for anyone to say, "Well, you have saidthat, but that's out of context. You have drawn attentionto that particular passage, but that's out of context whenyou look at the statement as a whole."

So let's take it along like that, Mr Grace, andsee how we go.

MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: Clearly the major objection will be the use of

statements by people who haven't been called. Yourprimary position is that they shouldn't be used at all.If the Tribunal is against you on that, then you may wishto make some objection to parts of it. We will see.

MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: Is that all right?MR GRACE: Yes, sir.MR HOLMES: It's the end of April, beginning of May.CHAIRMAN: So we are at - yes.MR HOLMES: At this time Mr Alavi speaks about the first time

that he got his hands on AOD-9604. If we look atMr Alavi's transcript, this is exhibit AS-7, MFI.

CHAIRMAN: Marked for identification.MR HOLMES: Yes.

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MR GRACE: What date is he interviewed?MR HOLMES: It is the end of April - - -CHAIRMAN: Early May. Which tab, Mr Holmes?MR HOLMES: Tab 2.MR GRACE: Are you talking about 14 April?MR HOLMES: I'm talking about AS-7, MFI.CHAIRMAN: AS-7, tab 2.MR HOLMES: Page 219. When you say 14 April, what document are

you referring to?MR GRACE: The Alavi interview.CHAIRMAN: 219?MR HOLMES: At 219. At the foot of the page he's being asked

about AOD and what's his source of AOD. Line 40.MR GRACE: Just hold on for a minute. We are trying to find

it.CHAIRMAN: It was a number of transcripts of interview.MR HOLMES: Page 219, at line 41, Mr Walker asks, "Who's the

source of your AOD?" Mr Alavi says, "Let me get the name.Here it's called Sichuan Hengli Technology. Okay."Mr Alavi, "It's a Chinese company. We were using thiscompany for most peptides we were compounding and qualitywas fantastic. So when did you first start to get yourhands on AOD? Well, it was from this. So this invoice isdated April 27. This is the first invoice for AOD and thestock arrived about three weeks after this." Mr Walker,"After this?" Mr Alavi, "Yeah, so it was mid-May." Sothat's when they first sourced AOD.

If I could go then to page 225. Mr Alaviproduced his records for all AOD-9604 dispensed by hispharmacy from 1 November 2011 to 28 November 2013 whichrevealed that AOD-9604 was first dispensed in June 2012,

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three tubes of cream, and the injections of AOD-9604 werefirst dispensed and did not occur until August. So ifI take you to 225.

CHAIRMAN: We have that. It starts at line 15 and then down toline 30.

MR HOLMES: "Here is the actual dispensing history of the AODfrom the pharmacy. So the first dispensing was the creamand there was three tubes in June." "I think we havecovered about six tubes." "There was 18 tubes in July.""Now, are these all to Steve Dank, are you talking about?""No, these are prescriptions. So these would havegone - these would have been dispensed to patients. Thenwe've got August, which is when the injections started.So 46 injections were given out in August. So we'vefigured out how to do it by August and then, you know, youcan follow it from there." That's June.

If I just go back to the text messages andI would like to take you to page 138 of the text messages.On page 138 of the text messages I read 46 and 47. Thenline 49, on 2 May, Dank texts Donohue, "15 minutes, mate.Spoke to Nima in Paris. Your stuff is ready." Donohue toDank, "Okay I'll let you know what time I'll swing by theclinic. Guessing around 2.30." Dank to Donohue, "Okay,mate." Dank to Donohue, "Hi, mate, just ringing thepharmacy now for you." Donohue to Dank, "What time willit be ready to pick up?" 55, "Vania hasn't rang me backyet so I'll keep trying. Any word as I'm leaving soon andthen I won't be able to get it until next week." That'swhere that text message finishes.

If we go then to page 21, the Dank/Alavi textmessages continue. At line 141 Dank texts to Alavi,

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"Great, mate. Can you organise the Thymosin for the AODstudy."

CHAIRMAN: Line?MR HOLMES: 141. Nima Alavi responds, "I'll let Vania know.

She should have it ready for you in the next couple ofdays." This is 9 May when the Bio21 testing of thesubstance which is the subject of the report that's beenstood over until next week - - -

CHAIRMAN: The professor's report.MR HOLMES: The professor's report, which gives an indication

that she was testing for Thymosin Beta-4. Then Dank textson 9 May Alavi, "Thanks, mate, I'll write that up tonightand send it through by email." Alavi to Dank, "Just togive you an update I've text Matthew and asked him for anappropriate time to call. Meanwhile I've contacted mypeptide manufacturer and placed a request for increasedproduction so they will be ready if Qatar inundates us."Dank, "Great. I think the Qatar project will reachmaximum production in theory. I will ring Vania thismorning to get a timeframe for Thymosin. I know she willhave 15 vials to do so it will take some time. Also DavidKenley" - David Kenley is with the firm MetabolicPharmaceuticals and they have the rights over AOD-9604 -"regarding you getting the worldwide manufacturing rightsfor AOD."

Then he goes back and says, "Sounds awesome.Let's schedule a time to meet David as soon as I get back.Let him know we are investing over a million dollars in apeptide laboratory this year. It will gain TGAregistration towards the end of the year. Perfect timingfor the AOD manufacturing." I'll finish that there.

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We know Vania at page 241 of the textmessages - sorry, page 384. On 11 May, entry 1, Vaniatexts Dank, "Hi, Steve. Just to let you know that your 15vials of Thymosin are ready to pick up. Also do you wantSARM in cream? I do have five syringes ready. Regards,Vania from Como Compounding." Vania gets a text message,I see, from Dank about Dr Khan.

Can I go from that to the first book, AS-3.About the middle of May there was another blow-up withEssendon in the form of Dr Reid, who I think Mr Robinsonor Mr Dank would have us believe approved all these. Thediary note is of Dr Reid at page 241, bearing in mind thisis not a contemporary diary note. It's the diary notemade by the doctor the following year when he was calledin to be questioned following the press conference togather his thoughts in order.

The heading on that page is "Post Anzac Day".It's two weeks later, three weeks later, that's post AnzacDay. "I've just heard they had injections from players."So the players let the cat out of the bag with the doctor."We then banned all injections. Reinforced that throughThompson and Hird." But it appears that they "kept doingsome" and that led to yelling at them, and he thinks thatthe coaches "considered sacking" but not sure why thatdidn't happen. That's all I wish to say there in terms oftwo or three weeks after.

Now we have the reference to an exchange betweenMr Dank and a new character that we haven't introduced youto before, Dr Nekoee, and it appears in the text messagesat page 212. It starts on the second last one on 211,number 37. On 28 May Nekoee texts Dank, "Good chat, mate.

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Let me know how I can get Thymosin Beta. I'm interestedin multi-dose vials." Dank gets back to him, "Hi, mate.When you get a chance check out ISA test and tell me whatyou think." Nekoee to Dank, "Hey, man. There are a lotof names that are hard to pronounce in the ingredientlist. It's got bloody Melatonin but how much? I'll haveto read more on it, man. I usually stick to simplercompounds personally. I see it contains my secretingredient" - I can't pronounce the next word. "I read astudy last year. Melatonin prior to training increasedpost exercise GH. That was in strength athletes."

Then on 29 May, "Hi, mate. I'll probably go inSaturday morning to see David Connell. Don't forget myThymosin Beta. It is done." I can't assist the Tribunalon who David Connell is.

Then it continues, "Are we seeing David Connellon Monday. Sorry, Saturday. Check your email when youare well served tomorrow, made. Hi, mate, what did yousend? Check it tomorrow when rested. Website link andalso interesting article that just popped up in thecycling news you might enjoy. Which one did you send?Your gmail account. But Thymosin isn't a banned product.Mate, I was sleeping. As far as Thymosin being banned ornot, that's why I sent you the link. I thought you'd liketo read it."

MR GRACE: "Thymomysin".MR HOLMES: Sorry, Thymomysin, yes. It seems to be a

bastardisation of Thymosin or Thymomodulin.Could I take you then to an article. Dr David

Connell, if it be the one referred to, is head ofimaging - clinical director of imaging at Olympic Park,

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which is a diagnostic and treatment centre.MR GRACE: Is that from the internet?MR HOLMES: The cycling article is in AS-3 at page 314. You

will see a heading on that page 314, "Vansevenant's dopingproducts were 'only amino acids'" and we know about thetext message between Dank and Robinson to call thepeptides 'only amino acids'. "Former Belgian pro scammedby Australian firm. The doping case involving former prorider Wim Vansevenant has taken a surprise turn. Ananalysis has shown that the doping products he ordered didnot contain the advertised contents and that he wasscammed by the company from which he bought the products.Last June custom officials intercepted a package toVansevenant from an Australian firm which containedseveral bottles labelled as containing the ultra-moderndoping product TB500, a peptide hormone purported toincrease muscle strength and promote hearing. A Belgiancourt immediately opened an investigation and suspicionsarose that he was providing doping products to the OmegaPharma-Lotto team. Vansevenant had ridden professionallyfrom 1998 to 2008 and was with the Lotto team for the lastsix years of his career. He had been hired by OmegaPharma-Lotto to escort VIP guests at last years Tour DeFrance but the team immediately cut its ties to him."

Continuing over to page 315, "An analysis of thecontents of the three bottles he received showed them tobe amino acids, and his lawyers said that charges shouldnow be dropped. 'It's not about doping, so he deserves nopunishment,' his lawyer said, according to [the Belgiannewspaper]. The court confirmed the analysis. 'Analysisshowed that the content of these bottles does not

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correspond to the product, the label on the product andthe statements of ex-racer,' said prosecutor spokesman.'There were amino acids found, no doping products. Thereis also no evidence that he supplied products to thirdparties.' The drug TB500 is a synthetic protein whichconsists of amino acids assembled into a specific order toreplicate the active site of Thymosin Beta-4. Presumablythe amino acids found in the vials were not in the correctsequence or were disassembled. He is scheduled to appearin the court for June 6 for further hearings."

Then there is a document which we regard as abackdated document arising out of that newspaper article.It appears in the first volume at page 332.

CHAIRMAN: That's of?MR HOLMES: AS-3. Page 333, sorry.CHAIRMAN: 333, that's something from Alavi. Do I have the

right one?MR HOLMES: Sorry, gentlemen. The article I just read to you,

was that in the copy of the court book that you have?CHAIRMAN: Yes, 314 in AS-3.MR HOLMES: Do you see at page 332, at 9.57 pm on Tuesday

26 June, Steve Dank emails Alavi an unsigned version ofthe document which appears at page 333.

CHAIRMAN: The document in its heading is dated 27 June.MR HOLMES: Yes, but that's above the double lines. Below the

double lines is - - -CHAIRMAN: Yes, I know. It's sent on the 26th.MR HOLMES: The first email is sent by Dank to Alavi, that's on

the bottom of the page. Then the following day he sendsit from his gmail account to his Essendon account.

CHAIRMAN: Oh, I see.

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MR HOLMES: So the sequence is on Tuesday 26 June at 9.57 hesends Alavi the document which is attached and unsigned,and you will note that even though it's 26 June 2012 he'ssending Alavi an unsigned document which is dated27 February 2012. "This is to confirm the productThymomodulin (Thymosin) is compounded at the premises inour sterile laboratory. The product does not contain anybanned substances in accordance with the WADA Code. Weguarantee the safety and sterility of the product inaccordance with the highest grades expected withpharmaceutical formulation. We also guarantee there is nocross-contamination with the product. Yours sincerely,Nima Alavi."

CHAIRMAN: So on 26 June Dank emails Alavi with the documentwhich is 333 attached to the email.

MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: Which is purporting to come from Alavi on

27 February.MR HOLMES: That's right. Dank gives Alavi a backdated,

unsigned document and then he sends it to himself thefollowing day at 7.35 am. So, the night before he sendsthe unsigned copy to Alavi. At 7 o'clock the next morninghe sends it to himself. Then if you go over the page,334 - - -

CHAIRMAN: Do we know whether this actually came from Alavi,this document, or was it created by Dank?

MR HOLMES: Can I take that on notice?CHAIRMAN: Okay.MR HOLMES: That unsigned one was sent at 9.57 pm to Alavi on

the 26th. On 27 June at 9.48 am Alavi sends page 335 backto Dank, but it appears that the entry on page 332 looks

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as though Dank printed out a copy at 7.36 and somehow thatsame morning, two hours later, Alavi sent the signed copyback to Dank which Dank the following day emailed tohimself at Essendon.

So Dank is backdating a document which we wouldsay is demonstrably false where he refers to, "This is toconfirm the product Thymomodulin (Thymosin) is compoundedat the premises", and I started today's recap ofMr Robinson's evidence where he doesn't remember anythingabout Thymomodulin, but he does remember Thymosin, and thetexts refer to Thymosin Beta-4 up to the end of February.

You may recall that Mr Dank did something on27 February, so it may be or it's likely that he wasbackdating the document at page 282. If you go to page282, you will see the date that it was backdated to wasthe date that Mr Dank signed up to the Anti-Doping Code.So the date is over the page, 27 February 2012.

CHAIRMAN: He signed up to the Code - - -MR HOLMES: On 27 February.CHAIRMAN: On 27 February.MR HOLMES: And the backdated document saying that the product

does not contain any banned substances in accordance withthe Code also is backdated to that 27 February, but it'snot signed, hasn't come into existence until 26 and27 June.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR HOLMES: So the most inherent likelihood is that the cycling

news article referred to this substance as being a bannedsubstance, but the cyclist got off because it wasn't inthe substance he had bought. "TB500 is interchangeablewith Thymosin Beta-4. I can't use Thymosin Beta-4. What

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can I use? Thymomodulin. Let's backdate a certificatefrom Alavi to cover me for my use of Thymosin Beta-4 fromFebruary to June."

CHAIRMAN: "Because if anyone checks it they would find thatI have this document from a compounding chemist which isclearing the substance."

MR HOLMES: Page 335.CHAIRMAN: "So in that way I can cover my tracks."MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: We have looked at 335 before.MR HOLMES: Sorry?CHAIRMAN: Sorry, 335. I was looking at 285. Yes, 335 is the

document signed by Alavi.MR HOLMES: Yes. But you see it's not on a heading. There is

no letter header. The document that was sent on 333 fromDank to Alavi - - -

CHAIRMAN: Mr Holmes, where were these documents obtained from?MR GRACE: The Essendon Football Club server. Deloittes

obtained it through a download.CHAIRMAN: So they came from the Essendon Football Club server.MR HOLMES: They also discussed this certificate which

reinforces the inferences that we have referred to at page23 of the text messages, AS-4.

CHAIRMAN: Page 23.MR HOLMES: I'm taking you to lines 175 and 176 because on

26 June at 9.57 it was sent to Alavi. That's at page 332of the first volume. We go to the text message. A minutelater at 9.58 Dank texts Alavi, "Hi, mate. I sent itthrough to you." Dank chases him up and says, "Hi, mate.Are you there?" That's the following day, the 27th. Thatis at 8.08 am. So he's texting, he's emailing Alavi,

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chasing him up because he wants that backdated coverage.MR GRACE: Sir, to put it into context, insofar as it's relied

upon, Mr Alavi gives a complete explanation of all thisand says in essence that Mr Dank had been asking him forthis document since February. That's what he told ASADAinvestigators.

CHAIRMAN: Yes, which is consistent with what's been said, thatit's backdated for a certain purpose.

CHAIRMAN: Mr Grace wants to rely upon it. That is, ifMr Alavi's evidence goes in, he would seek to rely uponthis bit. There are some good bits for the players inthis as well as a lot of bad bits, I assume.

MR GRACE: The upshot is we can't ask him about it.CHAIRMAN: No one can ask him. I just keep shaking my head,

and we all do up here, as to how we can run an integritysystem as important as this, which you would want to getto the truth, without any powers.

MR HOLMES: You have also identified another important thing.The questioning was done by ASADA of Mr Alavi to find outwhat happened. It's not questioning from a party to adisputed event, "Did it occur or not," where you areasserting that it occurred and you only get one side tothe story, so the other party, if it is used against them,can't ask that witness questions and the evidence or thestatement is all one-sided. A discretionary factor isthat this evidence was the result of an investigationwhere they were trying to find out what happened.

CHAIRMAN: He was asked to talk about events which of course

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those asking him the questions were not a party to any ofthe events.

MR HOLMES: Yes. So the story was, "Well, he had beenpestering me," according to Mr Grace and I accept,"pestering me since February."

CHAIRMAN: For this document.MR HOLMES: We have seen all of the emails and all of the text

messages in that period, and Alavi has been pestering himfor the payment of an account, but there hasn't been anyreference that I'm aware of that refers to thiscertificate before the Vansevenant article - - -

CHAIRMAN: What you are saying, Mr Holmes, is on the basis ofyour analysis of the material you haven't found any textmessages between February and June where Dank is chasingAlavi for this document; is that right?

MR HOLMES: That's right. Nor is there any email on theEssendon server where this is followed up. I stand tobe - - -

MR GRACE: The text messages just point to there being at leastoral conversations about it, because you will see atnumber 175 - - -

CHAIRMAN: This is text message?MR GRACE: 175 on that page that we have just been referred to,

"Hi mate, I sent it through to you." That's one minuteafter it was sent. So there must have been a precedingconversation about the document.

MR HOLMES: On that day, for sure.CHAIRMAN: That certainly indicates that that's the situation.

It could well be that there were conversations betweenthem.

MR HALLOWES: If the position of Mr Holmes is that Alavi's

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being dishonest on this point or on other points, then hecan say so. But that may influence the discretion thatMr Holmes has been talking about that you are going to beasked to consider.

MR HOLMES: Sorry, you want me to say that this is a backdateddocument?

MR HALLOWES: No, as I understood it - - -CHAIRMAN: No, the fact that not all of Mr Alavi's evidence is

reliable.MR HALLOWES: Yes, and just to clarify for Mr Holmes's benefit,

as I understood it he was saying that, accepting thatMr Alavi had at least said that he had been pestered forthis document but was pointing out there was no otherevidence of it, which seemed to be trying to cast somedoubt on Mr Alavi's evidence about that pestering.

CHAIRMAN: As Mr Grace points out, there were conversations.MR HALLOWES: That might be, but it just appeared it was being

sought to be maligned in some way by Mr Holmes.CHAIRMAN: All right, Mr Holmes. Might I say that I think

I made the right decision by this matter proceeding inprivate. I would just hate to think what the situationwould be if it wasn't.

MR GRACE: Headlines.CHAIRMAN: Headlines. It would have supplanted what happened

in Paris.MR HOLMES: At about this time Mr Alavi prepares the peptide

manual. The peptide manual is at page - it's the MFIdocument. We put a date on the creation of this documenton 5 July.

CHAIRMAN: Which folder is this one in?MR HOLMES: I need to hand up a document and make copies

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available to my friends.CHAIRMAN: So we don't already have it, Mr Holmes?MR HOLMES: You do already have the peptide manual which is at

AS-3, page 430. This is the peptide manual prepared byMr Alavi and I hand up the metadata of that document.

CHAIRMAN: That's what we've just got.MR HOLMES: You have just got.MR GRACE: Why is that metadata?MR HOLMES: If you look at the electronic version of this

document, we have the date it was created, the author wasNima Alavi and it was created on 5 July 2012 at 2.28. SoI tender the metadata.

CHAIRMAN: I think we are up to AS-13.#EXHIBIT AS-13 - Metadata created 5 July 2012.MR HOLMES: That relates to page 430 and following of exhibit

AS-3. Bearing in mind Mr Alavi was introduced or, sorry,was effectively taught about the peptides from Mr Dank andat the end of some six or so months he put together, wewould say, what he has learnt over that period forpeptides.

As Professor Handelsman has noted, they are allreference to banned products and there is no reference toany Thymosin other than Thymosin Beta-4, which if you goto page 451, "Thymosin is an actin-binding protein incells. Thymosin is a hormone secreted by the thymus thatstimulates the development of T-cells. Thepredominant" - and I emphasise the word predominant -"form of Thymosin, Thymosin Beta-4, is a member of ahighly conserved family of actin monomer-sequesteringproteins."

I invite you to read the rest of that paragraph.

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Thymosin Beta-4 is referred to in the next paragraph."Thymosin Beta-4 binds. Thymosin Beta-4 functions like abuffer for monomeric actin." The next paragraph refers toThymosin Beta-4. "Furthermore, the inhibitory Thymosinwhich sequesters the actin competes for monomers withprofilin," and again interchangeable use of the wordsThymosin and Thymosin Beta-4.

Then the next paragraph commencing with thewords, "Release of ATP." It talks about Thymosin Beta-4.In figure 1 - I'm not sure whether figure 1 is in thedocuments. "Thymosin Beta-4 and profilin servecomplementary roles in regulating," and again in the thirdline there is reference to Thymosin Beta-4; the third lastline is Thymosin Beta-4.

Over at 452, the first line refers to ThymosinBeta-4. Then there's a reference to figure 2 and theeffect of Thymosin. Again Thymosin and Thymosin Beta-4 isused interchangeably. At the end of that line, "whenThymosin binds" again, and the word Thymosin is used inthat paragraph. Thymosin is used without qualification inthe next paragraph.

The next one, "The promise of repairing someparts of aging skin is alluring, especially if damagecontrol may be obtained by applying a substance that isabundant in our body. Thymosin Beta-4, TB4, a moleculethat accelerates wound healing in animals and culturedcells, may be valuable in repairing skin damage caused bysun or even by the wear and tear of aging. This hopefulmessage of TB4's potential to restore damaged human skinwas voiced at the 5th International Symposium on AgingSkin in California by Dr Allan Goldstein, Chairman of the

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Biochemistry Department of George Washington Universityand founder of RegeneRX, and that's carrying outpre-clinical research on TB4 as a wound healer incollaboration with scientists at the National Institute ofHealth. Skin is the largest organ of the body."

Then if you go to the next paragraph, "ThymosinBeta-4 accelerated skin wound healing in a rat model of afull thickness wound where the epithelial layer wasdestroyed. When TB4 was applied topically to the wound orinjected into the animal, epithelial layer restoration inthe wound was increased 42 per cent by day 4, 61 per centby day 7 after treatment compared to the untreated." Andthen, "TB4 stimulated collagen deposition in the wound andangiogenesis. TB4 accelerated cell migration resulting inthe wound contracting more than 11 per cent." So TB4 isanalysed there.

Bearing in mind this is a substance which has aheading "Thymosin" on page 451 and if you go over the pageit concludes with the words, "These critical steps inwound healing are regulated by Beta-4 as seen in thefollowing experiments."

MR GRACE: Can I make a comment on this document. This is acut and paste from the internet by the author.

MR HOLMES: I'm not sure about that. Where is the evidence ofthat? There is reference to articles there.

MR GRACE: It is a cut and paste from various articles thatappear on the internet.

MR HOLMES: I would like to see that evidence, gentlemen,because - - -

MR GRACE: Here is one, a magazine published in 2002, "ThymosinBeta-4 in skin repair" by Carmia Borek PhD. If I take you

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to page 452 and I will read you the passage - - -CHAIRMAN: So he has lifted things out of it, has he?MR GRACE: Yes. I will quote from the internet - - -MR HOLMES: Can we have the passage of that so we can compare?MR GRACE: You have it in the article. Read the article. "The

promise of repairing sun-parched aging skin" - - -MR HOLMES: My friend is referring to something on the

internet. It hasn't been tendered. Without any record ofit - - -

MR GRACE: I'm referring to the fourth paragraph on page 452and I will read to you from the article by Carmia Borekpublished in 2002 - - -

CHAIRMAN: Is that one of the articles he has referred to here?MR GRACE: No. "The promise of repairing sun-parched aging

skin is alluring, especially if damage control may beobtained by applying a substance that is abundant in ourbody. Thymosin Beta-4, a molecule that accelerates woundhealing in animals and cultured cells, may be valuable inrepairing skin damage caused by sun or even by the wearand tear of aging. This hopeful message of TB4'spotential to restore damaged human skin was voiced at the5th International Symposium," et cetera, et cetera,et cetera.

So, that's an example of how this document wascreated. Can I add - - -

MR HOLMES: I take it there was no cut and paste of ThymosinAlpha from any web page.

MR GRACE: The first paragraph that Mr Holmes read out, thedefinition of Thymosin on page 541, underneath theheading, "Thymosin is an actin-binding protein in cells"is actually the definition of Thymosin Alpha.

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CHAIRMAN: Anyway, we will no doubt hear from you, Mr Grace, interms of - - -

MR GRACE: The further point to note is that this document wasprepared as a result of the sourcing of peptides, not fromGL Biochem, but the business that Mr Alavi instituted forhimself in around about June where he obtained a differentsupplier named Sichuan Pharmaceuticals in China where heobtained these particular peptides.

What the link is to Essendon is not readilyunderstandable from our point of view. If it is meant toindicate, "Well, because Mr Dank taught Mr Alavieverything he knows about peptides and this is whatMr Alavi put together, therefore it proves that Mr Dankwas only talking about illegal or unlawful peptides,"I can understand how that might be being put. But thelink to Essendon and the players is so tenuous as to bebeyond comprehension to us.

MR HOLMES: We can't say that the players had it. We can saythat Suki Hobson at Essendon had a copy of this, so it wasaround Essendon Football Club at the time.

CHAIRMAN: And Alavi was Dank's compounding chemist.MR HOLMES: And he was the supplier of supplements to Essendon.MR GRACE: Not at that time, sir. This is a document that's

prepared in August 2012.MR HOLMES: Sorry, 5 July 2012. We just tendered that exhibit.MR GRACE: That was modified in August. This is a document

that's modified in August.CHAIRMAN: Yes, I understand that.MR GRACE: So it's prepared in August, this final form, we

presume. This is said to be something that indicates whatwas sourced on behalf of Essendon. There is absolutely no

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evidence of that. There was no compounding done byMr Alavi for Essendon after - even on ASADA's case - afterJanuary 2012.

MR HOLMES: That's not right.CHAIRMAN: Anyway, let's understand that you will put that the

relevance of this document is tenuous, if not nil. But wejust have to see how it all fits into the jigsaw puzzle,if at all.

MR HOLMES: I took you to 430, which is supplemented by themetadata AS-12. It's referred to also on 10 September atpage 427 of that bundle. By the time it gets to10 September, the peptide manual is forwarded by TrentCroad to Luke Chambers at Melbourne Football Club. Thatappears at about point 5 of the page. At 426 you will seewhere that edition of the document came from, David Thurinof Tigcorp. Sorry, he's the chairman of the MelbourneFootball Club.

MR GRACE: No, he's a director of Melbourne Football Club andwas at the time.

MR HOLMES: He says, "Please find email with attachment sent byTrent Croad to MFC in September 2012. I believe you andJohn Nolan asked for it during the interview last week.I do not have John's email address but feel free to passit on."

Could I then take you back to the text messages.At page 158 - I will just put a date on it. 5 July iswhen the peptide manual is created. On 19 July - - -

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, what date is that?MR HOLMES: On 19 July.CHAIRMAN: What page?MR HOLMES: 158. It's entry number 45. Steve Dank texts Kyle

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sockets but not for sporting." Dank to Alavi, "Did theygo all right with efficacy?" Alavi to Dank, "Yep, it didthe job. Amazing repair properties." Dank to Alavi,"Let's test it on a couple of players." Alavi to Dank,"Sounds good, buddy. Speak soon."

MR GRACE: Could I make the point that nothing happened.Nothing proceeded in relation to this proposal.

CHAIRMAN: Fortunately.MR GRACE: Fortunately.MR HOLMES: I think the Thymosin injections continued.MR GRACE: Mr Alavi says in his interviews that nothing

proceeded.MR HOLMES: With this cocktail.MR GRACE: Yes.CHAIRMAN: That's what they were talking about.MR HOLMES: That's what they were talking about and we are

fortunate that they didn't proceed.CHAIRMAN: That's what they had in mind.MR HOLMES: Yes. On 13 August, if I could take you to 224.CHAIRMAN: Text messages.MR HOLMES: Text messages, yes. At entry 292, Nekoee is

texting Dank, "Thanks for tonight. Is the CJC 5 ml or 10ml vial? Also I forgot to give you the peptide for massspec testing tomorrow. It looks like a 5 ml vial. It is5 ml. We will get that tomorrow. I thought so. The MRCwebsite shows CJC at 10 ml for $400 and the hex at 10 mlfor $350. Strange, no. Did you mean to give me a 10 mlof each? I had given you" - this is over the page, 225 -"I had given you a 5 ml at $200, for the 10 ml is $400,but I should have given you a distributor price.I thought Hexarelin was the same price so a double

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mistake, so I'm terribly sorry. I'll make the adjustmentsand refund the difference. The 5 ml bottle had thrown me.When I picked them up for you I did expect 10 ml bottles.No worries. You're doing a favour. I just got confusedon the maths. If you've got another vial for total twovials each would be excellent for this client. OtherwiseI can make do with one vial for now until next month.Have a good rest. Talk tomorrow. Okay, I will get himanother vial tomorrow to make up plus Hexarelin. Is thatokay? I'm relying on you for the maths. One more CJC andtwo vials of Hex. That's perfect. Thanks a lot. Janesaid she is very glad you liked our food. We don'tentertain much. Our friends have bloody children."

CHAIRMAN: It reminds me, Mr Grace, sometimes of listening totelephone intercepts in terms of what people say.

MR GRACE: Yes. We have listened to a lot of those over theyears, haven't we, sir.

MR HALLOWES: Just a few swear words.CHAIRMAN: It goes a bit further than that, Mr Hallowes.MR GRACE: At least there is no code here.MR HOLMES: Can I then take you to page 139. Mr Dank and

Mr Donohue are still engaged in the supply of peptides.If you go to entry 88 on that page, Donohue to Dank, "Hi,mate. Can I pick up that stuff AOD and GH? Can you dropit at Frank's in the next couple of days or should I swingby clinic?" Then there are the text messages 88, 89, 90,92. Then that continues over the page, 93, 94, anotherdelivery of peptides.

Now we come to where Essendon didn't make thefinals. If I can take you to page 26 of the textmessages. 26, the first line, 239, Dank to Alavi, "Hi,

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mate. Lost last night which means now we can't make thesemis." I think in general terms Essendon came out of thegate and won all their first games and then towards theend of the season - - -

CHAIRMAN: Yes, fell away.MR HOLMES: Fell away. This was the penultimate game. "Mate,

that's unfortunate. Any idea if they are keeping you on?If so, let's get the pre-season plan ready for October.If not, let's work out a way to get you selling peptides."This is Alavi selling peptides, the manual. Then he says,"Yes, they are keeping me on and we'll still go throughthe sponsorship arrangement with you, but I still want tostart selling the peptides. I am too old to be justrelying on football for income. Best of both worlds.Let's talk next week. Huge interest in AOD after theconference. Robin spoke about it in one of his lecturesat A5M, and the integrated community is super excitedabout the prospects. Okay. Let's start driving that one.I'm in discussions at the moment with the Qataris tofinalise a start date for the AOD clinical trial. Theirmedical council is meeting on the 28th to discuss it.Kirk told me that their full import licences are in place.So they are ready for anti-aging. Great news. Can I grabthe rest of the AOD off you as well? I'm going to make upbulk. I'll grab that this week."

Then if I take you to page 56 of the textmessages. This is Adrian Dodoro, who is an Essendonofficial. The list manager. 307. 29 August, "Hi, mate.Tried to ring you back. Hi, mate. How was your day? Youobviously had a busy day yesterday. Well, it didn'tfinish how I envisaged eight weeks it would when compared

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to the other 17 clubs. In a meeting about an hour. Ringme when you're done. They are not renewing me. Danksy,I can understand that you're upset. I hope you don'tthink I had anything to do with it. If you don't want totalk to me that's fine, but I really valued ourfriendship. I really believe in you and think you're agenius. Thanks for supporting me and my family this year.Meant a lot to us. Really feel your pain. Best of luck.If I can help you. Cheers, AD." Adrian Dodoro.

If I take you to Mr evidence, Mrsaid, "We lost faith. The injuries we were suffering, theperformance. You need a shot." So if we go to the playertranscripts.

CHAIRMAN: Which is AS?MR HOLMES: Volume 4, page 21.CHAIRMAN: AS-6.4.MR HOLMES: That's the transcript of the interview withCHAIRMAN: I think he's right at the back.MR HOLMES: It is page 21 of the transcript. At page 21, line

36, Mr Walker asks, "Now, from your perspective whydid Stephen Dank end his employment with Essendon?" "Frommy perspective the players and the staff, the playersespecially, lost sort of faith. I lost faith in theprogram and it didn't seem to be working. The lack ofreporting was concerning. His lack of, I suppose, when hewould come and say to you, 'Look, you need to have a shottoday,' and you would say, 'No, you gave it to meyesterday,' and he'd walk off, that kind of reporting,I think the players started to, as they do, just startedto question it a little bit. And then also the fact thatthe injuries that we were sustaining, the performance that

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we were sustaining as well meant that I lost faith in theprogram and, yeah, that and the budget in which he seemedto have blown out was why I thought he was no longerrequired at the club. Then there was a huge amount ofmoney he was spending," and that's where I leave thatreference.

CHAIRMAN: I think it is common knowledge from recollectionthat, having started the season extremely well, they fellaway and associated with falling away was a lot of softtissue injuries. I might be wrong, but that's myrecollection.

MR HOLMES: If I take you back to the first volume, it's nowpost-Dank at Essendon. On 16 December - - -

CHAIRMAN: Which volume are we in?MR HOLMES: AS-3. There is a reference to an email from Dank

to Dr Mazzoni at WADA on 16 December 2012 asking ifThymomodulin - - -

CHAIRMAN: Sorry, give us the number on that?MR HOLMES: At page 273 and 274.CHAIRMAN: Yes, we have had a look at this before.MR HOLMES: Just one moment . Page 340 is an email on

22 January 2013. I thought there was an earlier one.This seems to be when Dank is seeking a ruling onThymomodulin and he doesn't seek a rulinguntil - I thought it was December 2012, but there it is on22 January 2013.

Gentlemen, what I propose to do now is to playsome audio recordings. If he was using Thymomodulin backin February I would like Mr Charter - Mr Charter, when wetried to subpoena him, didn't want to give evidence to us.But he did go to and give a radio interview which

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appears - the transcript appears at page 712.CHAIRMAN: Yes, 3AW.MR HOLMES: The transcript is in two sections. I only intend

to play the first section. But if the Tribunal wishes tohear the lot the second section is also available. Can weplay that. 712.

(3AW radio interview with Shane Charter played).MR HOLMES: Unless my friend wants to hear the second part - -

-MR HALLOWES: Clearly that's objected to as part of the

general - - -CHAIRMAN: Yes, it's effectively statements by him as to

certain facts which is sought to be used in that form andno doubt will be subject to objections for the same reasonas his other statements.

MR HOLMES: The record might show that on 9 December Mr Charterhad an interview with Mr Hargreaves. That's a few daysafter this. On 7 November - - -

MR GRACE: This is for the limited purpose of the voir dire.CHAIRMAN: It's relevant to the question of the admissibility

of Charter's evidence. That's the basis upon which youare putting it.

MR HOLMES: That's right. Mr Charter chose not to speak toASADA but he chose to speak to Mr Hargreaves, before andafterwards.

CHAIRMAN: That's a relevant matter to take into account interms of what happens to Charter's statements.

MR HOLMES: The next interview I would like to play is Mr Dank.At page 684 is a newspaper article, "Dank's stunningadmission." That's followed by Mr Charter's - the reportof his in - sorry, I will just note that's on 31 October.

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CHAIRMAN: Do we have a transcript of the interview?MR HOLMES: We do have a copy of the transcript. 382.MR GRACE: Could I mention that in further materials that we

have been provided with - the third tranche or maybe thefourth - there is a statement by the journalist NickMcKenzie in relation to this particular interview. I'm notsure if ASADA relies upon this or not, but the number isASA2.0066.8886. It is in tranche 4.

MR HOLMES: Can I see that?MR GRACE: What you are about to hear ought to be read in

context with that document.CHAIRMAN: What we are about to hear is an interview that Nick

McKenzie, who is an investigative journalist with The Age,conducted with Dank on radio?

MR HOLMES: No, this is his record - - -CHAIRMAN: This is his recording.MR HOLMES: Of Dank ringing him up and having a telephone

interview.CHAIRMAN: Okay. So it was over the telephone, but McKenzie

reported it.MR HOLMES: There are times when he switches off the recording

because of what he's been told at the request of Mr Dank.CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR HOLMES: Journalist's privilege is claimed in respect of

that, or some privilege that Mr McKenzie is bound by. Sohe hasn't revealed that to us. What you are about to hearis the conversation between Mr Dank and Mr McKenzie.

CHAIRMAN: All right. What Mr Grace is saying is thatMr McKenzie has made a statement about this.

MR HOLMES: Sorry, he has made a statement to ASADA after theevent. While we gather that, can we listen to this tape

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recording?CHAIRMAN: All right.

(Tape recording of conversation between Mr Dank andMr McKenzie played.)

MR HOLMES: I listened to that and the only voice that spokequickly was Mr Dank. Mr McKenzie wasn't speaking likethat at all.

CHAIRMAN: Whether it is something in the recording or - it'spresumably on a CD, is it?

MR HOLMES: All right. That's the only CD we have.CHAIRMAN: We probably have no alternative but to try and

follow it. I don't think there is anything we can do,Justin, is there, to regulate it?

MR HOOPER: No.(Tape recording of conversation between Mr Dank andMr McKenzie played.)

MR HOLMES: Gentlemen, that's not the speed.CHAIRMAN: We are getting close to the end of the day anyway,

Mr Holmes. It might be something the substantiveresources of the Commonwealth could technologically checkto see if anything can be done to make it understandable.

MR HOLMES: There is one other thing we would like to show.It's a video.

CHAIRMAN: Yes.MR HOLMES: I assume it's coming on that screen over there.

Can I hand up a document DM-24. Mr Alavi has a Facebookpage.

CHAIRMAN: So we haven't already got this?MR HOLMES: No. Mr Alavi has a Facebook page for Como

Compounding Pharmacy. On the Facebook page he has anumber of pictures and videos which we would like you to

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see of the substances that he or Como Compounding sells.This is on the Wayback Machine - sorry, it's the Facebookpage.

MR HALLOWES: Can I just clarify whether this was in - - -CHAIRMAN: It's a Facebook page at what time, do we know?MR HOLMES: It's on the Facebook page now.CHAIRMAN: That will be AS-14.#EXHIBIT AS-14 - Document DM-24.MR HOLMES: But it was posted on the Facebook page on August

2012. You will see a picture of the - on the Facebookpage they say, "Check out our new video. Find out moreabout what we do and how we do it at Como CompoundingPharmacy," August 2012. So this is the video of August2012. There is a shot I'm instructed of all the vials inthe shelf that are available from Como CompoundingPharmacy in August 2012.

CHAIRMAN: Which corresponds with the manual.MR HOLMES: Yes. Remember when we first tendered the bundle

there were objections made to the GL Biochem because itwas current, and we undertook to use the Wayback Machine.Mr Mullaly has done that and one of the things he has comeup with is this. No, this is not from the WaybackMachine, but this is one of the things that he has come upwith - - -

CHAIRMAN: It has been accessed through them.MR GRACE: We object on the grounds of relevance, sir. There

is no evidence of any injections in August 2012.CHAIRMAN: I think, Mr Holmes, we will need the assistance of

the IT people who look after the building to be able toproperly access this.

MR HOLMES: All right. Perhaps we will put this over to

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tomorrow too.CHAIRMAN: Let's do it tomorrow.MR HOLMES: That colour document I have handed up - - -CHAIRMAN: That's AS-14.MR HOLMES: Can I hand up an affidavit from Mr Mullaly.MR HALLOWES: Can I just ask in relation to this, because this

evidence which presumably ASADA have had for at least anhour or two, I'm not sure how long they have had it for,the first time we get it is Day 5 of the opening. Now,I'm not sure what is being proposed to be handed up now.

CHAIRMAN: I think it is presumably an affidavit that relatesto this piece of evidence.

MR HOLMES: It relates to this piece of evidence, but otherevidence that was objected to because it wasn't backdated.When we first tendered the bundle you may recall there wasobjection - - -

CHAIRMAN: You provide this document to counsel for theplayers. They can have a look at it, and just see wherewe stand in the morning.

MR HALLOWES: I might just ask if it is proposed if any othernew evidence be referred to in the opening ASADA haspossession of it we could be provided with it now ratherthan at the last minute.

CHAIRMAN: I think they are saying they needed to get this inthe light of matters that arose during the course of thepresentation to deal with the objections.

MR HOLMES: Yes.CHAIRMAN: So on that basis they couldn't be expected to

provide it earlier. 10 o'clock in the morning. Hopefullythe penicillin keeps working.

ADJOURNED UNTIL WEDNESDAY, 14 JANUARY 2015

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AFL ANTI-DOPING TRIBUNAL DAY FIVE CHAIRMAN: MR DAVID …media.heraldsun.com.au/multimedia/2015/aug/project/pdfs/... · 2015. 8. 9. · afl anti-doping tribunal tuesday, 12 january